http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24293
planning trip to lookout
Devin Wagner - 2011/12/24 00:55:18 UTC
Yankton, South Dakota
perry and i are planning a trip down May 18-27 plus friends are comming with there 4 girls.
im planning on bring the S2, the C4 with the soaring harness and the mosquito harness.
i did alot of flying in utah and still not foot launch rated will i be forced to the training hill or just a watched take off the mountain.
4X8 - 2011/12/24 22:14:33 UTC
This summer I got my H2 up there. GREAT bunch of people and terrific training! However, I was told point blank from Matt Taber that if I bought a hang glider from anyone other than LMFP I would have to pay for an inspection. The cost was about $250.00
I KNOW at least one person who was subject to this policy...
So call them and ask! And please report back.
Paul Edwards - 2011/12/24 22:40:07 UTC
Tennessee
OK, yeah, he does do that. It only applies to students that train there.
fly,surf,&ski - 2011/12/25 01:10:03 UTC
Torrey Pines
I really can't fault Matt for this one, as he has a Responsibility to his students as far as their first glider purchase being airworthy. The student cannot be expected to be able to inspect the glider themselves, and unless a friend who is also an experienced pilot got them into the sport, chances are they don't have a mentor right when they get their H2....
$250 does not seem unreasonable for a large shop, as even taking the sail off a pulse (have done it, so I know) is a total pain in the ass.
(the motorcycle dealership I work at charges $95 an hour for Labor)
Now for the "Push out and fly off in Mush Mode" Cliff/Radial Ramp launch technique they teach there, well it's XMAS so don't even get me started on that one....
(BTW Wag I would wager that between your powered harness and working with Ryan, and/or Shadd you already have stronger foot launch technique than a new LMFP H2)
Tom Galvin - 2011/12/25 02:44:51 UTC
Pagosa Springs, Colorado
What if he doesn't do an inspection and a student kills themselves with dodgy second hand gear.
Alan Wengren (HangDog) - 2011/12/25 05:22:37 UTC
OH I guess that wouldn't be as bad as someone from the general public who takes a ride on a tandem flight and dies because LMFP don't use Weak links on any of their flights!! Yeah that's right! they don't use weak links at all on any of their flights because they are always breaking so they done away with that routine when I was taking my training a few years ago and said they doubt they would ever go back to them!
Because of that, I never got my tow rating and could really care less if I do at al. I like to run off of a mountain the way Hang Gliders were intended to fly and I don't have to worry about getting in a lockout with a solid line attached and not being able to break loose with a weak link if needed during a lock out or something.
And yeah, If they always expect to inspect a hang glider that was purchased somewhere else then that's a double edge sword there. What the hell happen to PILOT IN COMMAND He should be the one who has the final say so as to who says that wing is in a flyable condition not an inspection. It's the pilot's duties to make sure his wing is in good shape to fly and not Matt's deep pockets. It's too political.
Oh and what about the time when three different people I know of personally went to buy gliders from Matt and had to sign a paper stating that you could not sell your wing to anyone else except back to Matt if you choose to sell it later on down the road! WHAT KIND OF BS IS THAT!!
If Matt is that worried about bad gliders flying off his ramp then he better start using Weak links on his tandem flights or something serious is going to happen and he'll be handing LMFP to new owners one day and then all the paperwork will start. The pilot or passenger may not be able to sue because of his signature on a waiver form but the family of that passenger or pilot will be able too and then LM will be shut down until further investigation of the incident.
The only way I would fly there is launch off of the Bandit Ramp which supposedly Matt has no control over or better yet, head over to Tennessee Tree Toppers!. A few instructors have left Matt's establishment solely for the purpose of being tired of all the BS.
If you want to fly a Mosquito there then you better make sure they have a full line of tools in their shop cause Matt will probably want to do an overhaul on the engine just to say: OK it's flyable! now sign my waivers!
LMFP is too political, I doubt If I'll ever launch off his ramp again. There are too many other places I can fly without the BS
OK, yeah, he does do that. It only applies to students that train there.
NO NO man it didn't apply to only students when I was there. I had almost 28 hrs of flying there which is way over a new student status and then bought a glider from Quest Air a couple months later and he still wanted to inspect it because I didn't buy it from him. That was total bullshit.
4X8 - 2011/12/25 16:56:17 UTC
I got my AT rating/sign-off their this summer. GREAT training and at that time they were using weak links. I know because part of my instruction was how to tie the knot.
Alan Wengren - 2011/12/25 18:19:02 UTC
Yes they may use links for students because it's part of the training but they didn't use them for the general public when they give out rides because there's no training involved so what the general public don't know won't hurt them right? but in this case it could only kill them!.
I have a few pictures of one of my tandem flights that clearly shows the lack of any weak links on my towline. I made that one flight and that was it. I still have two more tickets left I never used. My life is worth a lot more then $200 but I'll sell them to you if you want to use them. $100 each instead of the regular price of 150 LOL
John Stokes - 2011/12/25 22:22:30 UTC
Trenton, Georgia
Hey,
Lookout doesn't require inspection of a visiting pilot's glider (unless you want one). They will want to see you Ratings card and will probably ask a few questions. I think a weekend pass is something like $20. The Treetoppers weekend pass is $25. While you're here, you really need to go over and fly Henson's. It is a beautiful site with a great LZ and a bunch of wonderful people to boot. It is also a very laid back place and I guess the person that comes to mind as being the most laid back at Henson's is Clark Harlow.
Channing Kilgore - 2011/12/26 01:25:54 UTC
Whitwell, Tennessee
ditto on the Henson's place..we have several former 'Lookout' folks at Henson's due to the stuff at LMFP..i woulda been a member at both but i did the unpardonable and bought a glider outside of Lookout and heard one of the instructors complain about me not giving them my money..i paid 1800 for my glider w/ a vario and LMFP wanted 3800 for the same model glider that was not as good as shape as mine...now that folks is trying to take advantage of newbies in the sport..that's low in my book.....btw, class act at LMPF is Gordon Cayce IMHO..girls in shop are great too...$250 is way too much for sail off inspection...clark harlow can do it as good or better for better price
-as far as the pilots there having jobs, most get paid scraps...they get about 10 bucks for a tandem while the Park gets the rest...not sure how the high prices at LMFP are helping the aspiring pilots/tandem guys...
Dombaj - 2011/12/26 11:46:21 UTC
This is all well known fact about lookout.
Extortion and making new pilots into paying double or triple for an old gliders.
Sure nice place to fly up to a point when you just can't take it anymore and have to say go F... Yourself.
Zack C - 2011/12/28 00:12:34 UTC
HangDog,
It sounds like you think weak links are necessary to save people from lockouts. The weak link cannot be relied on to do this and that is not its job. Its job is to keep the glider from breaking. Lookout's tandems are in no danger of breaking because they have a weak link on the tug end of the tow rope. Thus, the only real danger not having a weak link on the glider end is exposing them to is the tow line snagging something on the ground and pulling the glider into a dive after the tug weak link breaks near the ground and the instructor doesn't release. That's a lot of problems that have to coincide for it to be an issue, and even if they were using a glider weak link, there's a good chance the tug weak link would break first anyway.
I'm not advocating their practice...just saying it's not as big a deal as you suggest.
As for 'the way Hang Gliders were intended to fly'...perhaps you should review the history of hang gliding.
However, I was told point blank from Matt Taber that if I bought a hang glider from anyone other than LMFP I would have to pay for an inspection.
The implication being that a glider purchased from Lookout WOULD, of course, have undergone a thorough sail off inspection.
I really can't fault Matt for this one, as he has a Responsibility to his students as far as their first glider purchase being airworthy.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction
Antoine Saraf - 2011/07/14 08:33:59 UTC
After several dysfunctions encountered by tandem, using a V-bridle and a 145kg wl on the apex, so a maximum load of 83kg on this primary release, I sent 3 times this email to
fly@hanglide.com (LMFP contact) without any answer !!!
Ya know just how fast a factory fresh dolly launched Wills Wing Falcon 3 195 and its driver can be converted to a smoldering pile of totaled wreckage because of one the piece o' shit defective aerotow releases Matt spews out all over the world? Responsibility my ass.
The student cannot be expected to be able to inspect the glider themselves...
Yeah?
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
02. Rating Requirements
06. Beginner Hang Gliding Rating (H-1)
-B. Beginner Rating - Required Witnessed Tasks
01. Set up and preflight of glider and harness, to include familiarity with owner's manual(s).
Why the hell not? What's it take in the way of brains, training, and/or experience to detect dented, cracked, bent, frayed, or torn tubing, bolts, wires, or sails?
The goddam student is supposed to be able to do all this before he's signed off on his Hang One.
What if he doesn't do an inspection and a student kills themselves with dodgy second hand gear.
- I dunno... The student will need to be buried or cremated or donated to a medical school?
- How many rated pilots have had so much as their knees scratched in the course of the past thirty years as results of dodgy second hand gear?
- How many rated pilots have been seriously fucked up or killed because:
-- they were taught:
--- that wheels were never to be considered as landing gear?
--- to do hang checks so they could assume they were hooked in on launch?
-- of shit Flight Park Mafia tow equipment and Industry Standard weak links which will break before they can get into too much trouble?
I like to run off of a mountain the way Hang Gliders were intended to fly and I don't have to worry about getting in a lockout with a solid line attached and not being able to break loose with a weak link if needed during a lock out or something.
So Lookout doesn't fly with weak links and you don't fly with a release. Interesting.
If Matt is that worried about bad gliders flying off his ramp then he better start using Weak links on his tandem flights or something serious is going to happen and he'll be handing LMFP to new owners one day and then all the paperwork will start.
Does it occur to you that, despite the fact that Lookout hasn't been using weak links on their tandem gliders and have been doing zillions of tows per season, there haven't been any incidents?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents
Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
And that, in fact, the vast majority of their tow incidents are CAUSED BY the weak links links they train other people to use to...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
...increase the safety of the towing operation, PERIOD?
I know because part of my instruction was how to tie the knot.
GREAT!!! And:
- what material, pray tell, where you using to tie the knot?
- why were you using that particular material?
I have a few pictures of one of my tandem flights that clearly shows the lack of any weak links on my towline.
Yeah, I've got one of your pictures that clearly shows that too. Thank you.
Lookout's tandems are in no danger of breaking because they have a weak link on the tug end of the tow rope.
No they don't. They have a single weak link at the top end of the bridle.
Thus, the only real danger not having a weak link on the glider end...
No, there's a MUCH bigger danger than that.
Lockout, tug (only) weak link blows, bridle wraps on the tow ring. Now NONE of the releases in the system are protected from overload. The tug's Schweizer type release is reasonably good but the rest of them - as we all well know - totally suck. I wouldn't advise anybody about whom I gave a rat's ass to go up on that bullshit no matter how long they've been doing it without killing anybody.
I'm not advocating their practice...just saying it's not as big a deal as you suggest.
Yeah it is. Just not for the reasons he thinks.
If there actually WERE a weak link on the front end of the towline - as you and the USHGA regulations state - the potential danger would drop astronomically. But there's still no way in hell I'd go up with the possibility of winding up with 250 feet of spectra draped over my basetube with no weak link protection for any of my releases. I don't care how remote the possibility of having a problem in that scenario is - it's a risk which can be totally eliminated with a few pennies worth of string with no downsides whatsoever and it's totally moronic for anyone to take it - even once.
And what they're doing - in addition to being astronomically stupid - is BLATANTLY illegal.
