Good thing he just LANDED HEAVILY - assholes. I shudder to think what might have happened if he'd CRASHED as a consequence of the focal point of his safe towing system increasing the safety of the towing operation.2019/03/28 - Male - 63 - Rating: AP - Defford Croft Airfield - 0-5 KM/H - Calm - Not Turbulent - Flexwing Hang Glider - Aero Tow - Moyes RX3.5 - Seriously Injured: Head Injuries
Pilot had low level weak link break during an aerotow and landed heavily.
Too bad the importance of a light touch wasn't encouraged.Pilot had low level weak link break during an aerotow and landed heavily.
Goddam right...Too bad the importance of a light touch wasn't encouraged.
He was only seriously injured in the head department. So whatever he was using for a helmet along with his near lethal heavy touch was obviously doing a reasonably good job. Besides... A really outstanding helmet will give the pilot a false sense of security and make him inclined to think he can get away with an even heavier touch than he would have otherwise.And more importantly, no mention of the helmet's performance.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.
Well somebody sure does....and you have zero say in my safety margins...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
So well over a year before you made your proclamation about none of us muppets having any say in your safety margins ALL of us muppets were substantially cutting into your bullshit safety margins.Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC
The accepted standards and practices changed.
...
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
So then subsequent to the accepted standards and practices being changed well over a year ago how is it POSSIBLE for your safety margins to be narrowed by ANTHING the glider's using a four strander...Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC
I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.
...for a weak link? Once Russell changed the accepted standards and practices - solely over the convenience issue by the way - you no longer had to land trailing 250 feet of two thousand pound Spectra. We got to fly it back to the runway with it draped over our control bars.Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC
I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
What a bunch of fuckin' useless incompetent douchebags.Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
Dennis Cavagnaro - 2013/02/09 15:55:00 UTC
I am very sad over the loss of a fellow pilot Zack and for the sad burden on the entire Quest community. We are pilots and in the end all judgement is the responsibility of the pilot in command.
Anyone that has some towing experience should know that there are circumstances and challenges that are unpredictable. that is way we as pilots need to be focused and ready. with a sailplane the tug pilot in an emergency can give you the rope at any time. We are trained to respond to this at all stages of the tow. First 50 foot 100 foot 200 foot etc.
the lesson I take from this tragic event is to have a action ready at every stage of the tow and anticipate as much as I can.
Lauren Paul and Mark the tug pilot my thoughts are with you doing this difficult time.
Peace,
Dennis
He was never one of MY fellow pilots. Wasn't actually a pilot either. When it counted he wasn't even a dope on rope 'cause he wasn't even able to stay on the fuckin' rope.I am very sad over the loss of a fellow pilot Zack...
Don't worry too much about it Dennis. The entire Quest community seems to have gotten over it pretty damn quick. Also Jeff Bohl a bit over three years later. Try going to the memorials page on their website and finding something if you believe otherwise....and for the sad burden on the entire Quest community.
- Whom Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney informs us was Mark Frutiger. Must be nice to have all that responsibility without ever being subjected to a nickel's worth of accountability.We are pilots and in the end all judgement is the responsibility of the pilot in command.
Yes. Every six weeks or so during the flying season somebody encounters circumstances and challenges that nobody's ever seen before and could no way in hell could've predicted. It's such a terrible burden writing up all the incident reports and amending the towing SOPs to keep pace with the flood of data. Takes about a month and half now just to read through the relevant SOPs. And no single individual yet has ever been able to comprehend it all - let alone adequately equip and train for it.Anyone that has some towing experience should know that there are circumstances and challenges that are unpredictable.
If this shit's unpredictable then what the fuck are we as pilots supposed to be focusing on and ready for? Who ever knew that a kangaroo could run that fast and jump that high? Too late for the SOPs publication. We'll just hafta put out an advisory for the time being....that is way we as pilots need to be focused and ready.
- How 'bout with a hang glider and a flagrantly illegally understrength tow mast breakaway protector and not in an emergency up to that point? Would that be a possibilty for getting the identical result....with a sailplane the tug pilot in an emergency can give you the rope at any time.
Sounds to me like your making more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
Yeah.We are trained to respond to this at all stages of the tow.
How 'bout 75 feet flying pro toad with a Standard Aerotow Weak Link when a monster thermal blasts you up like you're a fuckin' rocket? Can we see the Quest training video for that one?First 50 foot 100 foot 200 foot etc.
Huh? I thought we were all trained to respond to all the stuff that can't be predicted already? Were you totally fucking asleep during that session....the lesson I take from this tragic event...
- Hard to beat reaching for your razor-sharp cutting tool and slashing through your lines in an instant. I'm trying to think of a stage of a tow at which anything would work anywhere near as well....is to have a action ready at every stage of the tow and anticipate as much as I can.
Fuck Lauren Paul and Mark the tug pilot and the horses they rode in on.Lauren Paul and Mark the tug pilot...
Wow. I do lotsa thinking about those criminally negligent incompetent douchebags even now, over a half dozen years after that difficult time. (Anybody hear anything from Paul and Lauren lately?)...my thoughts are with you doing this difficult time.
Go fuck yourself, Dennis.Peace,
Dennis
...the world's greatest ever tug pilot that nobody's now ever heard of before.Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
Now we all know that...Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC
Welcome to the beast
Sunny describes it best... it's the jet that does 30.
Yeah, don't "simulate" towing... that doesn't go well. Same as the 582, just work on picking speeds. If you can hold 40, you'll hold 30 on tow just fine.
You will only ever need full throttle for the first 50ft of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.
Beware the awesome power of the 914... if you bounce a landing... get that nose at least level (NOT DOWN!) before hitting that throttle. It's very easy to accelerate that puppy straight into the ground
Ah, the full-on firebreathing monstrous glory that is the 914
Enjoy
Jim
...the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension. (PRESSURE, actually. But let's not quibble.) So we're not able to take advantage of the full-on firebreathing monstrous glory that is the 914Jerry Forburger - 1990/10
High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.
because......most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, which translates to about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. (And fuck all the atypical gliders.) Above that point the pressure (toldyaso) of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider.Quest Air Hang Gliding
Weak Link
The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.
...NOW we're gonna take advantage of the full-on firebreathing monstrous glory that is the 914Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).
- minus a single fucking WHISPER of concern about the killer "lockout" using all that additional towline pressure that trail and error previously proved was lethally unacceptable.Well we may not have any say in your safety margins but that loop of chintzy fishing line all you total fuckin' douchebags force everyone to use sure does.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.
You fuckin' douchebags have gotta take off throttled back to 582 power. And you gotta do it...Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC
Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin.
...REPEATEDLY. More so in...Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
...good thermal soaring conditions. Russell doesn't want you to tell him if you've doubled up so he can take extra care launching you. He wants to know so he can stop fucking around and get the planes properly blasted off the runway.Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
...the odds of having damn near everything we hoped for to line up the way we needed it to in order to permanently demolish at least a couple decades worth of Standard Aerotow Weak Link total lunacy.Tad Eareckson - 2013/02/08 20:44:05 UTC
This is THE BEST opportunity we will have in our lifetimes to kill this 130 pound Greenspot "standard aerotow weak link" bullshit.
...at which we finally get around to the actual flying stuff and you can start getting some half decent looks at what Knut's using for the focal point of his safe towing system - and the backup focal point of his safe system.Davis Straub - 2019/06/04 13:23:44 UTC
Plying with the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zOOvNEzw8M
And yet so far we have zero accounts of the Tad-O-Link...Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC
You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.
I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC
Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.
...many of us suddenly started becoming happy with shortly after a Davis Link increased the safety of Zack Marzec's final towing operation being used as an instant hands free release.Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC
I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.
Looks like you've given it up, Jack. Or at least nobody's ever once reported doing this with a Tad-O-Link. And if anyone ever did...Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/10 13:36:53 UTC
I still dont know if I buy into the stronger weak link hypothesis.
Ive broken weak links on purpose at altitude by banking up and pushing out abruptly. That is a mechanism I want to keep, not give up.
...he'd leave with the towline - courtesy of the Dragonfly's tow mast breakaway protector.Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC
I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.
Not a single skinned knee, no soiled underpants. Really astounding when one considers that it took about thirty seconds for both Russell Brown on the front end and Paul Tjaden on the back end to have near death experiences at Zapata after I forced the latter to go up with a Tad-O-Link close to eleven years ago.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC
Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.
Now flip the argument and you start to see the devil.
A glider can take a whole shitload more force than a weaklink can.
So, if you're of the "sole purpose" cult, then you see no issue with a LOT stronger weaklink.
Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.
So they can stuff their philosophical purity bs... cuz I have no desire to tow someone to their death, no matter how willing they may be.
I'm not playing with this stuff in my head and just dismissing it. There's been a lot that's gone into this system.
I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
Fortunately, they've been unscathed, but there have been a lot of soiled underpants in the process.
I'm happy to discuss this stuff.
But I'm sick to death of arguing about it.
HUGE. And something I just noticed. If one takes this example of the semiliterate, deceptive, misleading crap Davis spews out as writing as literally as is possible... At the Zapata World Record Encampment which ran late June through early July all gliders doubled up for the remainder of the event - as in "We all play by the same rules, or we don't play." It wasn't until the Big Spring US Nationals flown 08/14-19 (ending a week prior to the above post) that we had to inform the tug pilot if we were opting to decrease the safety of the towing operation for both the Pilot In Command and passenger to near certain death level with our selection of a Tad-O-Link for the focal point of our safe towing system.Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).
http://ozreport.com/15.123Davis Straub - 2011/06/22 04:20:32 UTC
Four Brazilians flew later (Andre didn't as he keeps getting sick from his young daughter in day care). Three reported 7 m/s (1400 fpm) lift in the afternoon in Zapata. One pilot had a weaklink break at 250' and got up very fast. They've never seen such good conditions.
Of course, it is very good in Zapata in the afternoon. We try to leave Zapata when it is very weak in the early morning, so we don't often get to experience the sensational lift here in the afternoon.
http://ozreport.com/15.124Davis Straub - 2011/06/22 15:00:59 UTC
Today the front has come through with rain, thunder, and lightning.
It looks like the weather improves quickly starting this afternoon...
http://ozreport.com/15.125Davis Straub - 2011/06/23 15:15:00 UTC
A down day at the WRE.
http://ozreport.com/15.125Davis Straub - 2011/06/24 18:07:53 UTC
Great cu's in light winds
BJ Herring goes for a 260 mile (418 km) triangle in his ATOS VR. He started at around 11:30 AM with a sky full of beautiful cu's.
This shot is taken looking east from near the hangar at around 10:40 AM.
Pete Lehmann was going to fly south launching a little after noon. Mike Barber was going to try out a Moyes Litespeed RS. He normally flies a Litespeed S. The Brazilians were just showing up around noon.
B.J. was going very slowly. Pete Lehmann was going to fly south launching a little after noon. Popped a weaklink at ten feet and landed on his belly on the payment, gouging his knee. He went to the emergency room for that. Three Brazilians (Eduardo, Paulo, and Alex) towed up between 2 PM and 2:30 PM into great lift and a cu filled sky. They might try a 100 KM triangle. Mike Barber flew his test fight (Moyes Litespeed RS) and came in and landed on his wheels on the pavement.
B.J. flew an out and return to the north. He was getting 600 to 800 fpm lift later in the afternoon.
http://ozreport.com/15.125Davis Straub - 2011/06/26 03:01:41 UTC
The southeast winds and the over running return
With the morning winds and the cu's forming before sunrise, the Zapata we know and appreciate returns. I ride my bike out to the airport and still I'm the first pilot to get his glider positioned next to the runway at a little after nine. It's a constant back and forth to get all the equipment out of the hangar, setup and ready to launch.
BJ Herring is off first a little after ten. I'm next at 10:20. Mikey after me and then the Brazilians.
I tow east to 3,100' just above cloud base and then head northeast paralleling highway 16 toward Hebronville. I want to get as east as possible to counteract the southeast wind and be able get around Laredo airspace. BJ reported lift just below cloud base, but I didn't find any until I was down to 1,500'. It was weak and I was thinking that maybe I wanted to land close to the highway and not risk drifting into no man's land.
I stuck with the lift as I drifted northwest. Mikey came over to me and got in the 100 fpm 200 feet above me. BJ was out front doing well. Mikey and I climbed very slowly not finding any good cores drifting away from the paved road.
It continued this way for fifteen minutes until I didn't find the weak lift that Mikey did to my west. I landed a mere ten kilometers out from Zapata. Mikey got back up and continued north.
It took me four hours to get out from behind two locked gates with the very fortunate help of Chris who lived nearby. Mikey got one hundred miles out. BJ. stopped 165 miles out landing near Uvalde as the cu's ran out at the hill country and he wasn't going fast enough. The Brazilian landed around Laredo and were all picked up by six.
Sunday looks like stronger winds and south southeast. Nice cu's today, but not streeted up as the winds weren't that strong. They build tomorrow.
http://ozreport.com/15.126Davis Straub - 2011/06/27 04:24:58 UTC
It started off as a record day with the over running in place and strong winds, and nice cloud streets setting up with a south southeast (170 degree) wind. After going down early yesterday I was set to go a little later, but the day was obviously much better much earlier. BJ Herring in his ATOS was launched first into a wicked cross wind...
http://ozreport.com/15.127Davis Straub - 2011/06/28 01:54:44 UTC
The thick (lots of vertical development) street persisted through most of the morning which encouraged BJ Herring to launch his ATOS (after flying for seven hours and 270 miles on Sunday) at around 9:30 AM. Robin Hamilton in his Swift was quickly behind him.
The rest of us waited a bit for the cloud base to rise from 1,800' AGL, which it did quickly. Mikey was off around 10:30 and I was after him at 10:45, assuming that I would find at 3,000' cloud base. Russell pulled me way to the east and I headed for a cloud street where after a thorough search found 600 fpm around 11 AM. Unlike on Sunday I wasn't settling for weak lift but searching around for the best of the lift and got a great reward.
http://ozreport.com/15.128Davis Straub - 2011/06/28 22:08:33 UTC
With a forecast for east winds, no one was ready to head north of such a day. That didn't mean that the conditions here weren't excellent for flying, and Pete Lehmann, BJ Herring and Gary Osoba did go flying while the Brazilians went to Laredo.
http://ozreport.com/15.129Davis Straub - 2011/06/29 20:29:23 UTC
Light winds, lots of cu's
BJ is out trying to fly a fast 100 km triangle. Gary and Robin Hamilton should be out there also.
http://ozreport.com/15.130Davis Straub - 2011/06/30 17:52:55 UTC
Arlene arrives and brings rain
http://ozreport.com/15.130Davis Straub - 2011/07/01 22:56:52 UTC
Heavy rain
http://ozreport.com/15.130Davis Straub - 2011/07/02 20:15:08 UTC
Gary had to leave, so even with two vehicles down here and no driver he headed out in his sailplane with his new wife, Christen. Russell pulled him (and no one else) up behind the Scout...
http://ozreport.com/15.131Davis Straub - 2011/07/03 15:42:22 UTC
Launched between 10:30 AM and 11 AM. At 11:30 Mike is 12 miles out and Pete 7. They are on a line to go well east of the Laredo airspace. Cloud base 3,400' AGL. 400 to 600 fpm lift, winds about 10 mph (light).
http://ozreport.com/15.132Davis Straub - 2011/07/04 19:46:22 UTC
The cu's come late
We are addicted to early morning cumulus clouds here in Zapata. When they didn't come this morning, we didn't go out to the runway (we were in the hangar) to get ready to tow up.
The cu's did start appearing far away around 11:30...
Pete's cow:
Photo by Gary Osoba
http://ozreport.com/15.133Davis Straub - 2011/07/06 00:57:47 UTC
Light winds but a nice over running
Pete and Mike hung in Zapata and went flying before 11 AM as I fled to Austin.
And what ACTUALLY happened:Davis Straub - 2011/07/06 23:05:56 UTC
They bail given the easterly winds
Given the reality of easterly winds and no good winds until likely Saturday, Mike and Pete head out from Zapata.
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48019554778_e02bb13796_o.pngBJ Herring - 2011/08/11
Zapata World Record Encampment
Stalwart of the WRE and friend Pete Lehmann let his knee have an affair with the runway. Needless to say it was short and dirty and needed antibiotics as the bone made contact.
Weak links were going like hotcakes so we doubled them up. On my Atos, I had my only break right as one hand let go of the cart so I held on like crazy to the other side and skidded to a stop.
As much as I didn't like it, a few of the yanks between me and the Dragonfly were like an accidental wheelie on a dirt bike (2 stroke) and would have broken the single links for sure.
Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC
OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!
I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LANDThat way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
BULL FUCKING SHIT. They cut the effectiveness of the two and a half cent focal point of their safe towing system in half immediately after their final increase in the safety of the towing operation inconvenienced one of their venerable hot shot competitors with real world XC experience and accomplishments coming outta his ass out of undoubtedly two days worth of world class XC conditions.Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC
I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.
We HAD THAT. We had it at 2012/05/16 23:37:27 UTC...BJ Herring - 2011/08/11
Needless to say it was short and dirty and needed antibiotics as the bone made contact.
So that's pretty good confirmation that he was flying pro toad / using an appropriate bridle. Big surprise. Also note the length of the appropriate bridle. Yet another big fuckin' surprise.Davis Straub - 2004/08/06
Big Spring
Greg DeWolf captures Pete Lehmann taking the cart with him.
A few days ago Pete Lehmann took off with one of the carts here at the US Nationals. Greg DeWolf has been capturing people's launches and landings for a video project and he happened to capture the whole sequence of Pete's launch.
A reconstruction of what happened has indicated that Pete's bridle was routed over the forward horizontal bar of the cart and under the next horizontal bar.
When Pete got enough speed to start flying he took the cart with him.
The bridle pulling down on the front bar and up on the bar behind was able to keep the back of the cart from rotating down. At about thirty feet the weaklink broke under the strain of keeping the cart from rotating.
The cart flew through the air making a perfect three point landing and was ready for the next pilot.
Pete did a good job flying the glider and not worrying about the cart.
Just went through the archives and pinpointed the public beginning of my war on the Infallible Standard Aerotow Weak Link:Pete Lehmann - 2011/06/24
Friday, June 24 - Blood on the Tracks
The re-setting continued, and the morning sky looked quite good, albeit with light easterly winds that were unsuitable for long flights. Still, it was flyable and we had a variety of flying objectives in mind. BJ's intention was to attempt a gigantic world-record distance triangle of 260 miles, Mike Barber needed to test fly his new glider locally, while the Brazilians too wanted to do some gear-sorting and experience the tow operation. In the end, the soft lift and constant cross wind resulted in BJ's triangle being truncated into an outnback to Laredo (circa 80 miles), Mike's test flight proved his glider's pitch to be badly out of trim, something that may have contributed to his belly-flop landing on the runway, and the Brazilians had a bunch of broken weak links, part of an unusual number that have been experienced here.
And then there's my weak link break. I had been looking forward to attempting an unusual eighty mile flight to the south east along the Mexican border towards McAllen. But the instant I came off the cart my weak link broke. That shouldn't have been a problem as I had good speed to transition to a landing. However, I had zipped up my harness a bit too far and couldn't unzip it in the seconds available to me. Still in my harness, I opted to belly land on the runway. Unfortunately the repaved runway has an extraordinarily coarse texture, that of a heavy grit sand paper, which resulted in my harness and knee being shredded. The harness can be fixed with Shoe Goo, but the knee required three stitches to pull together the resulting mess. The doctor who treated me at the clinic was sufficiently impressed by it to take some pictures for his colleagues. I was extraordinarily lucky, and can walk well and should be flying in a couple of days.
William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC
Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.
Fine. So wanna take the position that we'll probably never know what really happened on this one? We've got everything but the video - and here's a totally excellent ('cept for the resolution) facsimile:Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC
Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.
Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
pretty good at:Davis Straub - 2004/08/06
Big Spring
Greg DeWolf captures Pete Lehmann taking the cart with him.
A few days ago Pete Lehmann took off with one of the carts here at the US Nationals. Greg DeWolf has been capturing people's launches and landings for a video project and he happened to capture the whole sequence of Pete's launch.
A reconstruction of what happened has indicated that Pete's bridle was routed over the forward horizontal bar of the cart and under the next horizontal bar.
When Pete got enough speed to start flying he took the cart with him.
The bridle pulling down on the front bar and up on the bar behind was able to keep the back of the cart from rotating down. At about thirty feet the weaklink broke under the strain of keeping the cart from rotating.
The cart flew through the air making a perfect three point landing and was ready for the next pilot.
Pete did a good job flying the glider and not worrying about the cart.
Great Greg. You captured the launch. Any chance we can see the ACTUAL LAUNCH so's we can identify the asshole who cleared Pete to go? Or wasn't this a serious enough incident to justify that degree of bandwidth usage? (Somebody show me a video...Greg DeWolf has been capturing people's launches and landings for a video project and he happened to capture the whole sequence of Pete's launch.
A reconstruction.A reconstruction...
...you had launch monkeys making sure that bridles and weak links were all appropriate and sending people to the back of the line if they weren't. If they find some asshole using a two point bridle...Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Appropriate aerotow bridles
Competitors must use appropriate aerotow bridles as determined by the Meet Director and Safety Director and their designated officials. Bridles must include secondary releases (as determined by the Safety Director). Bridles must be able to be connected to the tow line within two seconds. The only appropriate bridles can be found here:
http://OzReport.com/9.039#0
and:
http://ozreport.com/9.041#2.
Pilots who have not already had their bridles inspected during the practice days must bring their bridles to the mandatory pilot safety briefing and have them reviewed. Pilots with inappropriate bridles may purchase appropriate bridles from the meet organizer.
Weaklinks
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line http://www.cortlandline.com/catalog/braid.html and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle. The tow forces on the weaklink will be roughly divided in half by this placement. Pilots will be shown how to tie the weaklink so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength.
Yeah. Shit just happened. It wasn't like there was a potentially lethal fuckup for which anyone involved bore the slightest degree of responsibility....of what happened...
Just a theory though. Really anybody's guess as to what actually happened.... has indicated...
- Wow! Neat trick to route it OVER the forward horizontal bar of the cart and then UNDER the next horizontal bar. I'da thunk that it would've had have first been routed under the aft beam first....that Pete's bridle was routed over the forward horizontal bar of the cart and under the next horizontal bar.
- As if he had some kind of choice.When Pete got enough speed to start flying he took the cart with him.
Good thing. Gawd only knows what could've happened if the back of the cart had rotated down. The front of the cart...The bridle pulling down on the front bar and up on the bar behind was able to keep the back of the cart from rotating down.
- Wasn't that exactly the same strain it was taking at about fifteen feet? Why do you think it blew at thirty? Maybe it just got tired?At about thirty feet the weaklink broke under the strain of keeping the cart from rotating.
...#8 bricklayers nylon line was not an appropriate material to use for weaklinks as it is not as consistent in its breaking strength (as far as we (US pilots) are concerned) as the Greenspot line used in the US. So exactly what is it upon which we (US pilots) are basing our feelings?Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
For many years a number of us (US pilots) have felt that #8 bricklayers nylon line was not an appropriate material to use for weaklinks as it is not as consistent in its breaking strength (as far as we are concerned) as the Greenspot line used in the US. At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
So tell me exactly how that meshes with:Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
Ya get a really excellent consistency run with the same weak link that previously held well enough to keep Pete's cart from rotating until he was up at thirty feet and then you immediately go and double it after it dumps the same asshole on the same or a very similar glider back on the runway to get his knee sanded down to the bone.At about thirty feet the weaklink broke under the strain of keeping the cart from rotating.
...Bart?)Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC
Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.
So now that we've doubled it...At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
...are we still applauding these efforts of Bobby's to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material?Davis Straub - 1999/06/06
During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
...what's the current count on the tug crashes now eight years after the change in the accepted standards and practices?The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug. I assume that Bobby Bailey won't hear about the use of strong links at the US Nationals until he reads it here.
