I'm going with his foot still hanging on the cart (which is probably trying to go in the opposite direction) and pushing himself off the control bar (no doubt making it more difficult to get the foot off the cart).Tell us why Davis isn't shifted hard to port at this:
point.
Good thing when you're controlling your plane and keeping it pointed down the runway. Not so much when you're totally brain dead and forcing your plane off to the side into what would be a lockout if the pavement weren't there to limit the roll.Brad Gryder - 2019/08/16 18:25:10 UTC
Within the 4 to 5 second time frame, both the tug and the glider have airspeeds which are enough for lift-off.
...total douchebag dangling underneath it.The glider appears "stuck" to the...
Their designers probably didn't envision pilots turning their gliders perpendicular to the runway before getting up to good launch speed. Maybe they could market a special Davis edition....dolly on the right side only for the next 4 seconds. Some dolly cradles have insufficient notch clearance for asymmetric control bar lift-outs...
Happens all the time. There's a special term for it - pipe-wrenching. Check the incident reports....and they can trap the control bar like a pipe wrench.
Oh. There was a hang glider pilot involved in this one? Must've missed that part. Need to go back and carefully review one frame at a time.The hang glider pilot is the best one to know whether he was hanging on to the right hose over those 4 seconds, or whether it was trapped in place, or maybe both.
Yeah, please get Davis's input on this one. He's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.Joe Faust - 2019/08/17 01:57:32 UTC
Davis, is there a time station that you'd instruct self-release?
Everybody 'cept for Terry Mason. (Right Sam?Sam Kellner - 2019/08/17 02:07:07 UTCDavis Straub - 2019/08/16 10:35:41 UTC
No.
Glad everyone is ok
)
Why don't you get his take on pro toad bridles, Joe?Joe Faust - 2019/08/17 02:38:08 UTC
Davis has not said "No" regarding any time station; he said "No" about the 3-second station. Remaining question is more global. Davis?
Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC
I've never aerotowed pilot-only, but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.
Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC
Incorrect understanding.
Yeah Joe. Let's get Davis to write the AT manual for us. The guy's a living treasure.Open:
Davis, is there a time station on the video that you'd instruct self-release?
If only there were some way Davis could communicate with us. Think of the enormous strides we'd be able to make in AT procedures and technology.Sam Kellner - 2019/08/17 02:47:51 UTC
Re: Agreed. Glad it turned out wellYou're probably correct Joe. He might have been answering the above ?Jim Gaar - 2019/08/15 18:19:16 UTC
Davis could you get a remark from Bobby?
Oh. So the crosswind and high angle of attack were major factors in this one. Thanks. Must've missed that part.Harald Steen - 2019/08/17 06:38:18 UTC
I had a launch like that in the 90's. Crosswind combined with high angle of attack...
Doing nothing beyond staying parked under the low wing, waiting for the runway to limit the roll and the tug to start pulling you back into the general direction of the runway. Keep up the great work....pulled it off just like Davis did.
Stupidity, incompetence, senility. Probably some issue with genetics as well.What happened here seems to be a combination of factors.
I knew that a decade ago - not anywhere near to the extent I should've though.This is a situation of You know what you got...
Yeah, this was just another one of those shit happens situations....don't know what you will get.
Superb! Obviously. Wasn't that apparent enough from the way Bobby was constantly adjusting to the situation developing behind him, holding him on whereas a lesser AT pilot would've fixed whatever was going on back there by giving him the rope?How good a view of the situation does a tug pilot have ?
But it doesn't really matter 'cause regardless of what the fuck the tug does and how the fuck the glider ends up the tug's actions and responses were always impeccable. Right?Brad Gryder - 2019/08/17 11:53:06 UTC
Most of the time, a tug pilot has a good view, but not always.
I'd go with reflective, convex, and to the side.The type and location of the mirror makes a big difference.
Also they should be adjustable such that one doesn't hafta watch the glider after the Pilot In Command fixed whatever was going on back there by giving the glider the rope.Most mirrors are on the left side of the tug, with maybe a smaller mirror on the right.
- So it's not a good sign when the tug can't see the glider?Unless there are mirrors on both sides, there is a blind spot if the hg pilot gets too far off to one side.
Bobby must've been simultaneously hit by all of them at once. Can you give us a list?There are also factors which influence how much time the tug pilot can afford to dedicate to the mirror view.
Smell and taste being major unappreciated ones.If the tug pilot is very experienced and is towing a greenhorn, he can focus on the pilot and watch the pilot almost the entire time, while flying the tug using mostly peripheral vision and other senses.
Here's a thought, Brad. How 'bout we let the two pilots equip, fly, be responsible for their own planes - and in compliance with FAA AT regs?If the tug pilot is towing a very experienced aerotow pilot, he has less need to focus on the pilot entirely, and can afford to pay more attention to other things like traffic, attitude, and gauges.
After I finally figured out the Standard Aerotow Weak Link bullshit I did all my launches (grass) fully zipped up. There was no way in hell my Tad-O-Link was gonna inconvenience me and if some front end crap like a Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protector did the job I was gonna belly in and worry about the grass stains later. But I don't recall any front end issues for anyone over the course of my Ridgely years.I'm going with it's his one leg in, one leg out prep for inconveniences.
to Donnell Hewett's Infallible Weak Link lunacy in 1981, the Chris Bulger and Bill Bennett / Mike Del Signore strong link fatalities in the earlier years of aerotowing. Then the Flight Park Mafia Standard Aerotow Weak Link pure insanity that entered the scene with widespread Dragonfly operations.Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality 2013/02/02 and subsequent total annihilation of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney by Team Kite Strings coordinated attack. Many of us then become happy with absurd strength Tad-O-Links.Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
Right...Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...Cragin? And there's no going back now - EVER.Cragin Shelton - 2011/09/03 23:57:33 UTC
Nice Reference CitationDo you REALLY think that there has been no progress in knowledge about the practical applied physics and engineering of hang gliding in 37 years? OR that an early, 3+ decade old, information book written by a non-pilot is a solid reference when you have multiple high experience current instructors involved in the discussion?Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Bart Weghorst - 2018/09/14 17:58:16 UTC
This forum used to have contributions from people who had a lot of experience with these type of issues. Weak links etc. have been discussed at length before. I cringe when I read that someone wants to do away with the weak link. As a AT regular who teaches this stuff I'd like to add my 3 cents.
-Don't do away with the weak link.
-Use one that is right for your weight/setup.
-Learn to deal with an early disconnect from the towline.
Please understand that the use of weak links does not prevent a lockout. They could help but they really serve a different purpose. I don't like to explain all this here because I think this forum is not a good medium to teach hang gliding subjects like these. When in doubt, consult an experienced AT operator and attend an AT course.
Yeah Davis?Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:05:31 UTC
Tad obviously completely lacks social intelligence and probably a few other forms of intelligence. Also, he obviously has other mental health issues.
Also his reasoning is circular and when cornered breaks out in outrageous jumps, pulling dead rabbits from flatten hats.
But on the reasonable level I think that we can all agree that weaklinks should be as strong as possible without compromising their function which is to keep the hang glider from being broken by tow forces (and therefore hurting the pilot).
Tad doesn't agree, but the rest of us no doubt do, that we are in a partnership with the tug pilot, and that he needs to be protected also, and therefore our weaklink has to be less than his.
I'll check my weaklinks once again, to see if they are about 1.5 G.
Did you remember to thank your tug pilot for NOT intentionally releasing you, giving him your vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety?Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052I'll check my weaklinks once again, to see if they are about 1.5 G.
And do take all the time you need to get back to us muppets with your weak link testing results.Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC
You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.
I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.
...the idiot doesn't hafta land with 250 feet of non weak link protected two thousand pound Spectra trailing behind him.Towing Aloft - 1998/01
I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!
Davis Straub - 2019/08/18 19:14:37 UTC
A couple of things.
All the hang glider pilots were going through what we all think is prop wash. You can see this in my video where I get "jiggled" a few second before the left wing gets lifted. We have multiple videos of this happening. I don't recall this being an issue in previous meets at Big Spring. Perajsp because we were mostly using tugs with 914 or 912 engines before. All 582's this time.
Mine was not the only occurrence like this one. It also happened to a Sport Class pilot a day earlier.
Because of the high density altitude and the weaker tugs we advised pilots to stay on the carts longer. This does present the problem of being on the cart when your wing gets lifted instead of being in the air where you are more likely to correct quickly.
I was pulled in to my chest as always.
On the next day I pulled into my waist on the cart and of course was pinned to the cart until I backed off.
I experienced prop wash every day lifted the cart up in it a couple of times but the cart came back down with me still attached until I pushed out a little to get off the cart after a long tow while on the cart.
Remember the wind was from the right a bit.
I was holding onto the cart on the right side after the lifted wing pulled my hand off the hose on the left side. Just before I launched I was reminded to hold on to the cart for an extended period.
Bobby was watching and would have released if I was endangering him.
I was answering Joe's questions right above my answer.
I have no idea what a time station is.
Glad you could finally find the time to give us something of substance on this one.A couple of things.
Oh, you had actual hang glider pilots flying at that one? Not just fellow dopes on ropes? Can you name them for us?All the hang glider pilots...
You had thirty streamers lining the runway, the usual half dozen GoPros on all the gliders, and you couldn't tell for sure? If the gliders were feeling it and the tugs weren't it was prop wash....were going through what we all think is prop wash.
05-0221 - 07-0321You can see this in my video where I get "jiggled" a few second before the left wing gets lifted.
Complete with tip drags? Must've been a real fun meet.We have multiple videos of this happening.
So...I don't recall this being an issue in previous meets at Big Spring. Perajsp because we were mostly using tugs with 914 or 912 engines before.
More power on takeoff is a GOOD thing?Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC
Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin.
How were you able to keep the gliders climbing out with them, the weak links from going left and right?Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC
You will only ever need full throttle for the first 50ft of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.
Sounds much safer and more practical to me.All 582's this time.
You had two tip dragging near fatals in the space of two days? Sounds like you need a better risk mitigation plan.Mine was not the only occurrence like this one. It also happened to a Sport Class pilot a day earlier.
Maybe one that specifies 914s and Tad-O-Links.Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC
Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin.
Aren't you supposed to be staying on the carts until you have safe airspeed anyway? Regardless of density altitude, tailwind, tug power? Or is everybody just staying on the cart for the usual number of seconds?Because of the high density altitude and the weaker tugs we advised pilots to stay on the carts longer.
Why is this a problem? Isn't that the whole purpose of having a cart with hold-downs?This does present the problem of being on the cart when your wing gets lifted...
Cocked on your ear, headed in the wrong direction, with no airspeed - the way you did....instead of being in the air where you are more likely to correct quickly.
With no regard for density altitude and airspeed.I was pulled in to my chest as always.
You mean the way all AT launches are supposed to be conducted?On the next day I pulled into my waist on the cart and of course was pinned to the cart until I backed off.
- Great sentence, Davis. Keep up the great work.I experienced prop wash every day lifted the cart up in it a couple of times but the cart came back down with me still attached until I pushed out a little to get off the cart after a long tow while on the cart.
On the incident flight I remember it was from the left...Remember the wind was from the right a bit.
You're supposed to be holding on securely enough to lift the cart if you have to. That's the whole Idea of hold-downs.I was holding onto the cart on the right side after the lifted wing pulled my hand off the hose on the left side.
Maybe they should've screamed this AT 101 fundamental issue at you a little louder.Just before I launched I was reminded to hold on to the cart for an extended period.
- But he was perfectly fine watching you locking out and almost killing yourself. Guess Bobby really is a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.Bobby was watching and would have released if I was endangering him.
Just when the shit starts hitting the fan and it starts to actually matter...Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC
I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.
That also makes a great deal of sense.I was answering Joe's questions right above my answer.
It's a common hang gliding term. We talk about them all the time. Also in lotsa sci-fi movies. And here I was thinking you'd been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.I have no idea what a time station is.
Joe Faust - 2019/08/18 20:10:41 UTC
The video has a start and a finish; let the start be at 0 seconds. Then define "time stations" at say 1-second of video progress, or station at 2 seconds of video progress. Etc. At what point (time station) in the video progress or run would you instruct self release knowing what you know now about your experience, if any? Thanks, Davis.
No shit. What will they think of next.The video has a start and a finish...
I would prefer it to be five seconds. Let's put it up for a vote....let the start be at 0 seconds.
That's so much more fun than just saying "Is there any point in the launch at which it should've been aborted?Then define "time stations" at say 1-second of video progress, or station at 2 seconds of video progress. Etc.
Thanks Joe, we don't get nearly enough eyestrain and headaches going through these things without contributions such as these.At what point (time station) in the video progress or run would you instruct self release knowing what you know now about your experience, if any? Thanks, Davis.
I hate it when that happens. Sometimes also when it hits my wing. (What a load o' crap.)Gerry Grossnegger - 2019/08/18 20:48:07 UTC
The prop can sometimes kick up a chunk of heated air that was sitting on the pavement and throw it in your face.
And yet...Davis Straub - 2019/08/18 21:58:05 UTC
As soon as the wing lifted on the left.
We don't have one single report of:Davis Straub - 2019/08/18 19:14:37 UTC
All the hang glider pilots were going through what we all think is prop wash. You can see this in my video where I get "jiggled" a few second before the left wing gets lifted. We have multiple videos of this happening.
And who to better illustrate this relationship than...Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
Great. Glad we got that issue properly settled. Now we can properly amend our SOPs to get all our tug and glider pilots, instructors and students on the right page.Joe Faust - 2019/08/18 22:55:45 UTC
Thanks. Then:
WHO proposed WHAT? I propose all you douchebags go fuck yourselves.Davis Straub - 2019/08/19 00:04:27 UTC
They proposed it.
Why should the tugs EVER be off the ground before the hang glider "pilots"?The tugs were rarely off the ground before the hang glider pilots.
Brad Gryder - 2019/08/19 0:19:20 UTC
In order to minimize readers' confusion, here is what was proposed:
"If the tug pilot knows that the hang glider pilots are planning to hold on to the dollies longer than normal, he will interpret this as a "fly faster during launch" request and accomodate likewise.
Ideally, the hang glider pilot should always keep the tug on the horizon.
You don't want to begin your flight with the tug way above the horizon, then being forced to zoom up to match his altitude."
I apologize for the confusion I might have caused by getting this post out of order. I was trying to think of a better way to write it without sounding like the Big Spring Team wasn't on top of things there.
I can tell from the video that the tug is flying faster than normal and climbing more gradual than normal.
How could any readers possibly be confused about ANYTHING in this thread?In order to minimize readers' confusion...
By whom? What are their qualifications? If you mean the assholes running this show I'm not real impressed....here is what was proposed:
What a load o' crap. How 'bout instead we have competent pilots primarily worrying about flying their own planes as safely and efficiently as possible?"If the tug pilot knows that the hang glider pilots are planning to hold on to the dollies longer than normal, he will interpret this as a "fly faster during launch" request and accomodate likewise.
Ideally, the hang glider pilot should always keep the tug on the horizon.
You don't want to begin your flight with the tug way above the horizon, then being forced to zoom up to match his altitude."
What's it matter? The whole thread's total lunacy anyway. This was a total fringe activity incident.I apologize for the confusion I might have caused by getting this post out of order.
Not really your forte. Maybe try another hobby.I was trying to think...
What could possibly give that impression? I'm sure they had a really good risk management plan in place (to help balance things out with respect to all the total crap equipment they were mandating)....of a better way to write it without sounding like the Big Spring Team wasn't on top of things there.
And yet Davis manages to:I can tell from the video that the tug is flying faster than normal and climbing more gradual than normal.
Whoa! Let's recommend that people not do that. Maybe maintain grips on the hold-downs and a low angle of attack until they have crisp airspeed as well.Joe Faust - 2019/08/19 01:10:32 UTC
Staying to starboard with oblique posture?
I REALLY think we're going backwards at an ever accelerating rate. (Funny I'm not seeing any of you Capitol Club dickheads involved in this thread.)Cragin Shelton - 2011/09/03 23:57:33 UTC
Do you REALLY think that there has been no progress in knowledge about the practical applied physics and engineering of hang gliding in 37 years?
What if you just kicked into the boot, zipped up, stayed prone like you're gonna be doing and staying anyway after the tow's over? Oh, right... You have to be prepared the focal point of your safe towing system increasing the safety of the towing operation. Maybe try hooking the foot corresponding to the hold-down you're gonna let slip out of your hand next time.Davis Straub - 2019/08/19 2:33:26 UTC
Holding the harness off the concrete.
Mike Nooy's old outfit. How's he doing nowadays?Learned years ago from the Dutch team in Hay, Australia.
