You are NEVER hooked in.

[Tad Eareckson]

Of our available Dennisses everyone save Cavagnaro and Hazen is probably out of the running by virtue of his USHGA number - and the former is from Vermont, versus Virginia (the Tidewater area, I'm pretty sure), and the latter is a weak candidate based on his ratings. I don't think he's on that list - but thanks for giving it a shot.

The L. King associated with Pagen's listing is undoubtedly Les who ran the Sport Flight school and shop in Gaithersburg, Maryland - which was the hub of hang gliding in the DC area in the early days. That's where I got my first of two gliders - a used Comet 165 - thirty years ago next month.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4247
Hook in failure in New Zealand

Christian Williams - 2006/09/20 02:18:56 UTC

Checklists are proven in aviation, from Dragonflies to the space shuttle. No matter how you look at it, the checklist is not the problem.

Yeah, Christian, it actually IS.

It shouldn't and doesn't hafta be, but in actual practice - whether it's a written checklist which nobody uses 'cause they're pretty useless in most hang gliding environments or an assimilated procedure which virtually everyone uses to some extent or other - it is. And when ya really get down to fundamentals it's really the MAIN problem.

And here's why...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

- Virtually all of them are written by total idiots who include a hang check somewhere pretty early in the sequence and that procedure is virtually always used primarily by the "pilot" and, often, his crew to confirm that he's hooked in and assume that he'll remain so until after he's safely down in the LZ an hour and a half or so from now.

- And as you yourself know very well any procedure which - prior to one instant before launch - is used to confirm that the pilot is hooked in and reassures him - and his crew - to that effect is a really bad idea.

- A checklist is worthless at the instant of commitment to flight. Checklists can only be of value during preflight inspections. And at the instant before commitment to flight that crap is history.

- The hook-in check must be the beginning of EVERY launch sequence and it must be triggered by a mindset based on the assumption that the pilot is not hooked in at that point.

Peter Birren

The excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden...

Here's an idiot example from the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden...

Hang Glider Foot Launch Checklist

Check:

01. To assure the launch procedures and flight plans have been reviewed with the tow team.
02. The protective equipment including helmet, gloves, eye protection, hook knife, etc. to make sure they are adequate and in place.
03. To assure the preflight inspections have been completed.
04. The harness for leg straps and locked carabiner.
05. Perform a hang check.
06. The tow bridle, release and fresh weak link for integrity and proper connection.
07. The towline retrieval chute, if used, for proper rigging.
08. To assure the tow team checks have been completed and the team is ready.
09. The air traffic. The marshal and other pilots should help here.
10. The conditions. Make sure the wind is light enough, smooth enough and straight enough for a safe tow.

Nope, can't see anything POSSIBLY happening in the second half of that sequence which could result in the pilot not being connected to his glider by the time he's standing at launch position and the driver hits the gas.

And I absolutely adore the one from my old Capitol club for free flight launch which has you checking your parachute, pod lanyards, shoelaces, "helmut" buckle, and goggles after you've established that there's no freakin' way you could possibly launch unhooked from this point on.

[Tad Eareckson]

Hang Gliding - 1981/05

Just Doing a Hang Check is not Enough
Article and photos by George Whitehill

Over the years I have observed the problem of pilots taking off not having hooked into their gliders. I've also read about and seen the tragic results. Some pilots have gotten lucky; most have not.

Since I believe that the only person responsible for my personal safety is myself, I've developed habits to insure that I won't make such a careless error. Wire assistants, launch assistants and my friends can never be to blame if I am forgetful. I must take the full responsibility. You must, too.

Just doing a hang check is not enough. Don't get me wrong, a hang check is a very important step that should be done prior to every launch. A hang check shows the pilot that he/she is the correct height above the bar. It also assures the pilot that harness lines and straps are untangled.

The point I'm trying to make is that every pilot should make a SECOND check to be very certain of this integral part of every flight. In many flying situations a hang check is performed and then is followed by a time interval prior to actual launch. In this time interval the pilot may unconsciously unhook to adjust or check something and then forget to hook in again. This has happened many times!

If, just before committing to a launch, a second check is done EVERY TIME and this is made a HABIT, this tragic mistake could be eliminated. Habit is the key word here. This practice MUST be subconscious on the part of the pilot. As we know, there are many things on the pilot's mind before launch. Especially in a competition or if conditions are radical the flyer may be thinking about so many other things that something as simple as remembering to hook in is forgotten. Relying on memory won't work as well as a deeply ingrained subconscious habit.

In the new USHGA rating system, for each flight of each task "the pilot must demonstrate a method of establishing that he/she is hooked in, just prior to launch." The purpose here is obvious. It is left up to the pilot to demonstrate whatever method works best for him. Here are some suggested methods:

- Walk forward through the bar until the straps get snug, holding onto the front wires. Then turn around and LOOK at everything. Pull on straps.

- Lift up the glider to prepare to launch and feel the straps pull tight on your harness, turn around and LOOK up.

- Turn towards the back of the glider prior to lifting your wing and hold on to the rear wires. Turn around and LOOK.

- While squatting under the glider at launch reach up and yank on your suspension lines. Pull up and LOOK!

In each method, LOOK, TOUCH, and KNOW! Do this at launch time when you are just about to go. If anything delays your launch, DO IT AGAIN. Make this check a habit.

By taking responsibility for our own safety we are truly SELF regulating our sport. Isn't this the way it should be?

Photos:

Dan Rac doing a hang check, just prior to launch.

Peter Lindquist stepping through the bar to check that straps are untangled and that he's hooked in.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4247
Hook in failure in New Zealand

Christian Williams - 2006/09/24 22:30:14 UTC

Every pilot should perform a hook-in check the instant before launch.
Any procedure you use before that can fail. We all know that.
It is the last-second, final confirmation.

I'm sorry, but this is a pass/fail kinda sport in which we're participating and Joe just plain flunks the test - BIG TIME - on this most basic and critical of all hang gliding issues.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=646
Failure to Hook In

Tad Eareckson - 2011/07/23 17:28:10 UTC

I'm afraid I was way more impressed with the Joe Greblo Christian was talking about than the one with whom you (Bob Kuczewski) were just talking.

Yet another case of Yours Truly liking someone enough to not want / be able to see the warts and what's actually being said and done.

A hook-in check is - EXACTLY as Christian describes - a:

...last-second, final confirmation.

But Joe's not teaching hook-in checks.

Christian Williams - 2006/09/24 22:30:14 UTC

A hook-in check is not a hang check. It is a specific, simple, action:
Before picking up the glider to launch, step through the control frame, turn and observe that the carabiner is properly connected.

He's teaching people to perform a preflight procedure and use it such that they can assume they're hooked in from that point on.

He's teaching a more useful and less cumbersome version of a hang check which can be performed easily without assistance but no closer to the instant of launch - WHEN IT MATTERS. In fact you can probably get the glider trimmed and ready faster and more easily from a hang check than a walk-through.

He's teaching in total accordance with George Whitehill's / USHGA's disastrous article / announcement in the 1981/05 magazine issue.

And what's wrong with that article, briefly...

This:

Christian Williams - 2006/09/19 22:23:19 UTC

Joe Greblo teaches a hook-in check the instant before launch. To him, a hang check is part of the preflight and has no value in confirming that you are hooked in at the moment of launch.

is mostly right.

This:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

- which, I note, Christian had to figure out on his own - is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. The hang check isn't just of:

no value in confirming that you are hooked in at the moment of launch.

It's of negative value in confirming that you are hooked in at the moment of launch. It's - as Christian says (and Steve Kinsley said long before) - DANGEROUS.

But in the article the hook-in check is a "SECOND check" which the pilot "SHOULD" make to supplement the sacred hang check.

And none of the four suggested hook-in checks is a hook-in check. They all include turning around and LOOKING.

Sorry, when you're turning and looking you're doing a preflight inspection - like and no more important than a sidewire visual check or load test - which was supposed to have been taken care of - BY THE *PILOT* - PRIOR TO the launch sequence.

A hook-in check is PART OF the launch sequence - its beginning - and...

- Turning around and looking at the carabiner will NEVER be the beginning of ANYONE'S launch sequence.

- NOBODY who's turned around and looked at his carabiner five, ten, thirty, sixty, or ninety seconds ago before trimming for launch is gonna do it again - just in case - before running off the ramp.

Bob...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=822
US Hawks Hook-In Verification Poll

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/11/09 18:34:13 UTC

Your five second time limit between hook-in check and launch is unreasonably short - especially when attached to the consequences that you've listed. This would preclude, for example, the "turn and look" hook-in check that Joe Greblo teaches because five seconds would easily elapse between that check and getting the glider back into position to launch.

...totally confirms this and thus - inadvertently - confirms that Joe's NOT TEACHING HOOK-IN CHECKS.

Christian provides more...

A hook-in check is not a hang check. It is a specific, simple, action:

Before picking up the glider to launch, step through the control frame, turn and observe that the carabiner is properly connected.

...and more...

Christian Williams - 2006/09/22 14:43:48 UTC

Sure. If no wind this in the only way. But as you run the glider flies (don't hold it down on your shoulders). As the glider flies, just before lift-off, you should feel the leg straps tugging. If not, you're unhooked.

Some people develop the habit of holding the glider down on their shoulders during the run, perhaps because they feel they are controlling the angle of attack better. As they launch they release the downtubes and the hang strap tensions suddenly and it can feel quite smooth.

One recommendation of the recent clinic I attended was to not do this. Always let the glider fly as soon as it will during the takeoff run.

Looking back at Kevin's report, it appears that letting the glider fly and being able to recognize early that something was wrong is what saved him from injury.

...evidence.

Christian Williams - 2006/09/24 22:30:14 UTC

Yes, my club has the same number of unhooked launches as anybody else - maybe more. At least one each summer. More than that, probably.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4JFe7rUCnc


And the anecdotal evidence suggests that nobody's doing them within Joe's sphere of influence and what Joe's teaching isn't having any significant positive effect.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=646
Failure to Hook In

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/07/22 21:30:23 UTC

I just talked with Joe, and he said that hang checks do have limited usefulness in protecting against hook-in failures, and that their value in that regard decreases with the time between the hang check and the launch (he's absolutely correct here).

He's absolutely INCORRECT there.

- There is ALWAYS a significant delay between a hang check and the launch and...

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

...it builds a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

- Sure Joe. Walk-through... Hang check... Pretty much two flavors of the same thing. Why not just flip a coin?

He also said that doing a hang check the moment before launch was just as good as a hook-in check at launch, but that a hang check can catch things that a hook-in check might not (like a hang strap routed around a down tube, as just one example).

Yeah Bob - and Joe. That's what the fucking PREFLIGHT is for.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13132
Unhooked Death Again - Change our Methods Now?

JBBenson - 2009/01/25 16:27:19 UTC

I get what Tad is saying, but it took some translation:

HANG CHECK is part of the preflight, to verify that all the harness lines etc. are straight.

HOOK-IN CHECK is to verify connection to the glider five seconds before takeoff.

They are separate actions, neither interchangeable nor meant to replace one another. They are not two ways to do the same thing.

- You do the:
-- fucking PREFLIGHT to verify that all the harness lines etc. are straight before you start thinking about launching
-- HOOK-IN CHECK to verify that you're connected to the fucking glider five - no, make that - zero to two seconds before takeoff
- They are separate actions, neither interchangeable nor meant to replace one another. They are not two ways to do the same thing.

So your claim that hang checks aren't needed by pilots who use the same glider/harness combination is invalidated right there.

It's a matter of WHEN you do those checks that's the issue here, Bob - and Joe.

Joe recognizes (as most people do) that a hang check (just like a hook-in check) has a value that decreases from time that it's conducted.

- Most people:
-- the vast majority in fact - are assholez
-- are the problem - not the solution

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

- Anybody who recognizes (as most people do) that ANY check prior to one instant before commitment to flight has a positive value and isn't dangerous is an asshole.

That's not the same as *NO VALUE* or "mathematically ZERO".

On that point - in isolation - we're in full agreement - asshole.

As Joe pointed out, if the hang check is done immediately before launch, it's just as good as a hook-in check. But as he said, it can also catch things that a hook-in check doesn't.

Great. No way in hell my nephew's training under Joe - at least until he learns the difference between a hang check and a hook-in check.

Christian Williams - 2006/09/24 22:30:14 UTC

Nevertheless, it is obvious that a hook-in check will prevent launching unhooked.

Only if people actually do them - and teach, require, watch for them.

So what check is most important?

Hard to say, Christian. According to Joe and at least one of his idiot students there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of distinction.

[Steve Davy]

I typed "Asshole" in the USHPA member search engine and got this.

Search Results -- 0 members found
No Results, please try your search again.

[Tad Eareckson]

Maybe it's case sensitive. Give it another shot with all caps.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.azhpa.org/azhpa_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2871
Kunio Checklist

FlyingMJ - 2008/09/05 15:31
Phoenix
Joined: 2008/09/01 00:06

Kunio is now about to be laid at rest, and like many of you, I have thought of little else this past week, still saddened by such a terrible and preventable loss. I have heard that there have been comments made by some criticizing and trying to place blame on the living, to one or more who were there, to the point that perhaps some friendships have been damaged. To some extent this is human nature, a way of channeling the pain and anger and directing it at something, a way of coping, but it will not bring Kunio back.

Kunio was Pilot In Command (PIC) and it is was his full 100% responsibility for what happened. If the FAA and NTSB were involved that is what there report would say. It is also what Kunio would say, for he was a man of character and personal responsibility. I hope any future blaming will be put to rest, as Kunio is put to rest also.

Now it is time to move on, and seriously look at what can be done and should be done to prevent this tragedy from occurring ever again. Hindsight is 20/20 and looking back there are things we all wish would have been done. I have broken those things down into "4 Participation Positions" below. Each of them could save a life in the future, if we look at each of them as a responsible position, a crew member, if you will, with checklist responsibilities.

1. PIC - Pilot In Command has the ultimate responsibility to have a fail proof system.

That is what PIC means. Whether you clip your harness in first and then climb into it like Jeff Johnson does, or use a written checklist, mental checklist, verbalized checklist, hang check, or any combination or all of the above, Hal's way, Greg Berger's way, or something else, you must as Pilot In Command have a fail proof system of your choice that works every time. This may be different for different pilots, all pilots will never agree on a single system and that is ok, but if you are PIC it's your responsibility to have one and for it to be fail proof.

2. Nose wire man - If you're going to hold the nose wires for a pilot, what system are you going to use to prevent a tragedy?

Each of us should have a system for holding the nose wires or checklist, or perhaps we should not hold them. For me personally, I will ask the pilot do a "Kunio Check" - a complete hang check for me and verbalize his checklist. If the pilot does not like it and refuses, I will ask him to verbalize his checklist and run through it, and if he still has a problem (remember he is PIC - it's his call), I will then personally perform my own "Kunio Check" using my own checklist that includes me physically checking his hook in, and looking him over head to toe (verbalizing each item as I go and ask the wing wire men and pilot to look as I perform the check) to make sure he looks ready to go. Two to four sets of eyes looking at everything as I verbalize it should prevent this from happening.

3. Wing wire man - If you going to hold the wing wires for a pilot, what system are you going to use to prevent a tragedy?.

For me I will verbalize to the pilot and the nose wire man "Kunio Check" and verbalize that I see the hang strap and it looks either connected or not connected and ask him to verify it for me. My attention with be directed to the pilot looking for and trying to catch any mistakes.

4. Bystander - If you going to watch a pilot launch, what system are you going to use to prevent a tragedy?.

Personally as a bystander, I will look at every pilot as he walks up to launch to make sure I can see if he is hooked in or not and then verbalize what I see, and suggest a "Kunio Check" if I do not see one being performed.

I am thankful that I was not on the north launch, watching or holding wires, because I would beat myself up if I was there and could have seen, could have checked and did not. I feel very bad for those that were on north launch with Kunio, that could have been me and I would beat myself up, like I know they have. I was holding Randy's wing wires on the south launch while he was deciding to launch or not and, to be honest with you, I cannot tell you whether Randy was hooked in or not. That will be the last time that happens to me. Because of Kunio, when ever I am on launch, I now will look at myself as a crew member with Kunio checklist responsibilities in any of the 2, 3, or 4 participation positions above.

Bottom line is this: All of us should have a fail proof method or checklist that we use in each of the possible participation positions to help save a friend from making the same mistake Kunio made. It is still 100% PIC responsibility, but if we do this, this will never happen again, and we will honor Kunio in doing so.

MJ

Kunio Checklist

Screw the Kunio Checklist. Here's what it says on the USHGA Checklist for every flight for every rating:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

And none of you assholes EVER makes the slightest effort to adhere to it.

Kunio is now about to be laid at rest, and like many of you, I have thought of little else this past week, still saddened by such a terrible and preventable loss. I have heard that there have been comments made by some criticizing and trying to place blame on the living, to one or more who were there, to the point that perhaps some friendships have been damaged.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=463
Davis Straub's "Oz Report" Conflict of Interest

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/03/09 02:33:49 UTC

This is going to sound cold, but I believe people have a right to make their own choices. I don't want a "nanny state" where anyone is telling me what I can and can't do ... for my own good. The sport of hang gliding would surely not exist if that thinking were carried to its logical extreme.

That's some of the fallout you get from allowing fucking moronic Bob Show caliber glider divers to make their own fucking moronic choices in accordance with fucking moronic Bob Show do-whatever-the-hell-you-feel-like policy. Some of the other possible fallout is that a flying site is closed down. And maybe a new one doesn't get opened up.

To some extent this is human nature, a way of channeling the pain and anger and directing it at something, a way of coping, but it will not bring Kunio back.

But maybe if you got the right heads on pikes it would keep the next Kunio from getting killed.

Kunio was Pilot In Command (PIC)...

Bullshit.
- He wasn't connected to his plane - let alone in command of it.
- When he climbed into the control frame he COULD have assumed that status but he was too scared to hang back and slow it down.
- He was never a pilot. A hang glider pilot never assumes that he's connected to his glider at launch. Kunio always did - as do all of you.

...and it is was his full 100% responsibility for what happened.

Bullshit. It was his, his instructor's, your club's, USHGA's, and the entire idiot culture's. There's always tons of well deserved blame to go around on one of these.

If the FAA and NTSB were involved that is what there report would say.

If the FAA and NTSB were involved there'd have been a lot more hope that instructors who signed people off in flagrant violation of the ratings regulations would lose their certification.

It is also what Kunio would say...

Yeah, he undoubtedly would. He'd also be really wrong.

...for he was a man of character and personal responsibility.

Yeah, I think he probably was. But that's not good enough in this game. You need to learn, understand, and follow proper procedures.

I hope any future blaming will be put to rest...

I hope it gets directed to the right people for the right reasons and never ends.

...as Kunio is put to rest also.

He's not resting. He's dead. Let's always remember that 'cause it helps keep us focused on what we're doing.

Now it is time to move on...

Yeah, that's one thing this sport is really good at.

...and seriously look at what can be done and should be done to prevent this tragedy from occurring ever again.

Yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21478
a fatal hanggliding accident in israel

yuvinb - 2011/04/10 20:26:39 UTC

I'm sad to inform that our very small hang gliding community in Israel suffered a terrible loss this last Saturday.

Yossi Tsarfaty, a relatively new H2 pilot, took off without clipping his hang strap, held on for a minute or so before falling to his death.

Right. Take a guess as to how many years I've been listening to THAT line.

Hindsight is 20/20...

Bullshit. Ya watch videos like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEhuBU64t18


ya know something bad will eventually happen to someone.

...and looking back there are things we all wish would have been done.

Yeah, we always do. And we don't ever seem to actually DO them. But, what the hell... The things we all wish would have been done are always the precise opposite of what NEEDS to be done.

I have broken those things down into "4 Participation Positions" below. Each of them could save a life in the future, if we look at each of them as a responsible position, a crew member, if you will, with checklist responsibilities.

1. PIC - Pilot in command has the ultimate responsibility to have a fail proof system.

That is what PIC means. Whether you clip your harness in first and then climb into it like Jeff Johnson does, or use a written checklist, mental checklist, verbalized checklist, hang check, or any combination or all of the above, Hal's way, Greg Berger's way, or something else, you must as pilot in command have a fail proof system of your choice that works every time. This may be different for different pilots, all pilots will never agree on a single system and that is ok, but if you are PIC it's your responsibility to have one and for it to be fail proof.

- The first thing we need to do is establish that the Pilot In Command is qualified to BE the freaking Pilot In Command. If he's failing to comply with this regulation:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

he's not. Do him a big favor and get his rating suspended and then do everyone else an even bigger favor and get his instructor's certification revoked.

- There's no such thing as a fail proof system. If you think you've got one you're asking for it.

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

- And the more more you doubt you have a fail proof system the more likely you are to have a system which doesn't fail.

- Use the best preflight and launch procedures for your circumstances. The best preflight procedure ALWAYS includes an inspection of your connection and the best - and only acceptable - launch procedure includes an assumption that you are not hooked in and a verification that you are within two seconds of launch.

- Whether you clip your harness in first and then climb into it like Jeff Johnson does, or use a written checklist, mental checklist, verbalized checklist, hang check, or any combination or all of the above, Hal's way, or Greg Berger's way you're not a fucking Pilot In Command - you're a fucking idiot. Ya wanna be a Pilot In Command you adhere to the goddam SOPs.

- You can't run aviation based upon what a bunch of idiot "PILOTS" agree on. You need pilots to be trained in accordance with sane procedures and you need those procedures ENFORCED.

2. Nose wire man - If you're going to hold the nose wires for a pilot, what system are you going to use to prevent a tragedy?

How 'bout:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

Just kidding.

Each of us should have a system for holding the nose wires or checklist, or perhaps we should not hold them.

- That sentence doesn't make any sense. I'm assuming you're talking about the problems of not having three hands to deal with both nose wires plus some idiot piece of paper.

- Yeah. You're gonna have checklists at the ramp. Right.

- Just how long does this checklist need to be? Helmet buckled? Vario on? Make sure he's hooked in and has his leg loops. If you get bored after that then check that his parachute isn't about to fall out. Do you really need those two or three critical items on some idiot piece of paper?

For me personally, I will ask the pilot do a "Kunio Check" - a complete hang check for me and verbalize his checklist.

Reminds me of the international orange Priday Straps everyone was gonna start using half a dozen years ago so the crew would have a better chance of seeing that the pilot wasn't hooked in right before they let him skip the hook-in check and run off the cliff.

If the pilot does not like it and refuses...

Yeah, if you ask me to do a complete hang check for you I'm gonna tell you to go fuck yourself. Well, I'll actually tell you, "Thanks, but I don't do hang checks." - but that's what I'll be thinking.

I will ask him to verbalize his checklist and run through it...

- I load tested my sidewires.

- I checked my suspension connection and leg loops.

- I'm not actually sure I'm hooked in and have my leg loops so I'll do something about that the instant before I commit to launch. But at that moment I'll be too busy to talk about it with anyone.

- So how 'bout you:
-- glue your eyes to my suspension at the critical moment
-- watch to make sure I do the lift and tug IMMEDIATELY before I commit
-- get my rating suspended and have me tested for Alzheimer's if I don't

- If you wanna look at my leg loops and connection now... Fine, I appreciate it. But don't start thinking that that's an indication that I'll be hooked in with my leg loops a minute or two from now. I sure as hell know I won't.

- How 'bout you do that for EVERY pilot for EVERY launch.

...and if he still has a problem (remember he is PIC - it's his call), I will then personally perform my own "Kunio Check" using my own checklist that includes me physically checking his hook in...

Do you really need to physically check it? Has anyone ever found a problem with a connection that wasn't or wouldn't have been obvious just by looking at it? What are you expecting to discover in the course of a physical check?

...and looking him over head to toe (verbalizing each item as I go and ask the wing wire men and pilot to look as I perform the check) to make sure he looks ready to go. Two to four sets of eyes looking at everything as I verbalize it should prevent this from happening.

- Great. But this is all preflight stuff.

- Ramps are DANGEROUS - especially when the air is nasty.

- So you're not gonna be doing this from launch position on the ramp. You're gonna be doing at the back of the ramp where all you AZHPA assholes are doing your precious hang checks.

- Are you gonna:
-- make sure he's got his backup loop and his carabiner is locked?
-- load test his sidewires - or at least ask him if he has?

- So then why are you checking that he's got his backup loop and his carabiner is locked?

- Shit happens between the back of the ramp and and launch position which causes everyone - pilot and crew - to remember doing all the thorough preflight procedures while the fact that the pilot subsequently UNHOOKED...

Rescue 911-Episode 415 "Hanging Hang Glider (Part 1)"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls2QiDtSO7c
BeatleMoe - 2008/05/14
dead

...doesn't register.

- Thus the back of the ramp is not the place or time when it's most critical to have two or four sets of eyes looking at everything.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.

Steve Davy - 2011/10/24 10:27:04 UTC

OK- how many times does he need confirm that he is hooked in? And when would be the best time to make that confirmation?

Brian McMahon - 2011/10/24 21:04:17 UTC

Once, just prior to launch.

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

I agree with that statement.

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

That applies to crew as well as the pilot, MJ.

3. Wing wire man - If you going to hold the wing wires for a pilot, what system are you going to use to prevent a tragedy?.

- How 'bout:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

Just kidding.

- A wing wire MAN can't hold the wing wireS. You need wing wire (WO)MEN for that job.

- If you HAVE wing wire (wo)men on a crew there's zero excuse for that launch to go off without the suspension being tightened within the prior two seconds.

- If you have and NEED wing wire (wo)men there's WAY more than enough air to float the glider to suspension tight level.

For me I will verbalize to the pilot and the nose wire man "Kunio Check" and verbalize that I see the hang strap and it looks either connected or not connected and ask him to verify it for me. My attention with be directed to the pilot looking for and trying to catch any mistakes.

- Great. What mistakes are you gonna be looking for and how many of them actually matter? It's a no brainer that people have gone off ramps without the gliders right after crewmen have noted that their chin straps were safely buckled.

- WHEN are you gonna check the connection? At the back of the ramp or when it actually matters?

- HOW is he gonna verify that he's either connected or not?

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

- Shouldn't the dumb sonuvabitch be doing that anyway - JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH?

- Shouldn't the dumb sonuvabitch have been doing that anyway - JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH - before he got his freakin' Hang One signed off and for every flight since?

- Are you doing that for yourself? Just kidding.

4. Bystander - If you going to watch a pilot launch, what system are you going to use to prevent a tragedy?.

PREVENT a tragedy? I thought we were only supposed to talk about stuff AFTER a tragedy.

Personally as a bystander, I will look at every pilot as he walks up to launch to make sure I can see if he is hooked in or not and then verbalize what I see, and suggest a "Kunio Check" if I do not see one being performed.

- RIGHT. You're gonna look at every pilot AS HE WALKS UP TO LAUNCH to make sure you can see if he is hooked in or not.

- IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER OR NOT HE'S HOOKED IN *AS HE WALKS UP TO LAUNCH*. Lotsa people have walked up to launch safely hooked in and been dangling from the basetube a couple of minutes later.

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

- And after you've verified that he's hooked in AS HE WALKS UP TO LAUNCH and done his Kunio Check everybody can relax and move on with the important business of getting the glider into the air.

- Get your shit together and start understanding this issue.

I am thankful that I was not on the north launch, watching or holding wires, because I would beat myself up if I was there and could have seen, could have checked and did not. I feel very bad for those that were on north launch with Kunio, that could have been me and I would beat myself up, like I know they have.

Doug Hildreth - 1981/04

Just before the first step of your launch run, lift the glider and make certain that the straps become tight when you do so.

You should be beating yourself up anyway - not an iota less than anyone who was on the north launch.

I was holding Randy's wing wires on the south launch while he was deciding to launch or not and, to be honest with you, I cannot tell you whether he was hooked in or not. That will be the last time that happens to me. Because of Kunio, whenever I am on launch, I now will look at myself as a crew member with Kunio checklist responsibilities in any of the 2, 3, or 4 participation positions above.

How 'bout instead going with something that doesn't suck? How 'bout - just for laughs - giving:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

a shot?

Bottom line is this: All of us should have a fail proof method or checklist that we use in each of the possible participation positions to help save a friend from making the same mistake Kunio made. It is still 100% PIC responsibility, but if we do this, this will never happen again, and we will honor Kunio in doing so.

Fuckin' hopeless.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.azhpa.org/azhpa_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2871
Kunio Checklist

Chris Lloyd - 2008/09/05 16:55
Gilbert
AZHPA

I agree with the "Kunio Check" but think we need an additional reminder that is not Pilot nor Nose Man dependent.

Randy's sign at the top of the south launch says "HOOK IN NOW!" and perhaps if Kunio had launched from there that would of reminded him to hook in. The sign is great but I believe it can be improved.

The problem with the sign is that it sits on top of launch which is too late since it only takes a couple steps from there to kill yourself by making a STUPID mistake. Everyone should be hooked in before stepping up to launch. The "HOOK IN NOW!" needs to be at the base of launch where we normally do our hang check. A sign should also be posted that says "NO UNHOOKED PILOTS BEYOND THIS POINT!" and the sign needs to be posted at both launches.

Being a witness to Kunio's last flight I know I will always visually perform a "Kunio Check" of any pilot I see on launch. You might even hear me say his name when I lock my carabiner onto my hang straps.

I agree with the "Kunio Check"...

Great!!!

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

What's your position on the USHGA Hang One, Two, Three, Four Check?

...but think we need an additional reminder that is not Pilot nor Nose Man dependent.

Yeah.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

Let's keep adding procedures and reminders so we can be more and more confident that the pilot is hooked in one instant before commitment to flight.

Randy's sign at the top of the south launch...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/woodbits/3960696963/

...says "HOOK IN NOW!" and perhaps if Kunio had launched from there that would of reminded him to hook in.

IF it had been the first, possibly second, time he had ever seen it - MAYBE, but I doubt it. After that... Totally forget it. It's just another rock, part of the landscape, invisible.

The problem with the sign is that it sits on top of launch which is too late since it only takes a couple steps from there to kill yourself by making a STUPID mistake.

- Yeah. Maybe that would be a REAL GOOD time and place for you assholes to start focusing on the issue EVERY launch. Just kidding.

- The STUPID mistake is not being on launch unhooked. That's a HUMAN mistake that ANYONE and EVERYONE is capable of making.

- The off the scale STUPID mistake is that NONE of you assholes EVER verifies hook-in status JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH - and, even now, you're not even talking about doing it.

Everyone should be hooked in before stepping up to launch.

BULLSHIT.

- It's of ABSOLUTELY NO IMPORTANCE whether or not someone is hooked in before, while, or after stepping up to launch.

- Everyone MUST BE ASSUMED *NOT* TO BE HOOKED IN before, while, or after stepping up to launch.

- In fact if you assholes had had a rule PROHIBITING everyone from being hooked in before and while stepping up to launch my guess is that Kunio, his family, and you assholes would all have had a nice weekend.

The "HOOK IN NOW!" needs to be at the base of launch where we normally do our hang check.

- Oh! That's how and where you assholes establish that the pilot will be hooked in at launch!

Hang Gliding - 1981/05

Just Doing a Hang Check is not Enough
Article and photos by George Whitehill

And somebody got killed last weekend. Who'da thunk?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1152
Bill Priday's death

Cragin Shelton - 2005/10/03 15:13:27 UTC

I remarked that 'you are not hooked in until after the hang check.'

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=821
Fatal hang gliding accident

Sam Kellner - 2011/11/07 02:47:58 UTC

Preflight, Hangcheck, Know you're hooked in.

- Reminds me of a couple of other assholes I know.

- Great idea!!! Move the warning sign even FARTHER back - in both space and time - from the point at which being hooked in actually matters!!!

A sign should also be posted that says "NO UNHOOKED PILOTS BEYOND THIS POINT!" and the sign needs to be posted at both launches.

- Super idea!!! Then everyone can safely assume there won't be any unhooked pilots beyond those points!!! And then you assholes can say to the next guy's wife and kids, "Well, we're REALLY sorry. But we DID have a sign posted that said 'NO UNHOOKED PILOTS BEYOND THIS POINT!' - in big capitol letters and with an exclamation point! And he just walked right by it. So we really don't know what else we coulda done. Sometimes shit just happens."

- What happens when one of your Mingus guys to a site where there aren't any signs? I'm thinking almost certain death.

- If you MUST have plaques and signs at the back of and and on the approach to the ramp have them say, "YOU ARE NOT HOOKED IN - ASSHOLE!" That just might get you guys thinking about the issue in a constructive manner. Hell, that might even get some wuffos usefully tuned into the situation.

Being a witness to Kunio's last flight I know I will always visually perform a "Kunio Check" of any pilot I see on launch.

And then you can relax - 'cause from that point on - you're SURE he's hooked in. And naturally, of course, you can then safely skip the USHGA Check - JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH.

You might even hear me say his name when I lock my carabiner onto my hang straps.

- And from that point on you'll be able to assume you're hooked in 'cause you're sure you remember locking your carabiner onto your hang straps.

- The main and - just in case that one breaks - the backup.

- Shouldn't you also say the name of either the guy who fell out of his glider 'cause he didn't lock his carabiner or the guy who fell out of his glider 'cause he used a non locking carabiner?

Look Chris...

- At the moment of launch, which is the critical time when this shit REALLY matters, Randy's beautiful plaque is pretty much the same place an unhooked pilot's carabiner is - behind and low where he can't see it and nobody's paying any attention to it.

- A person who runs off a ramp without his glider does so for three reasons: he:

-- never does hook-in checks

-- uses a procedure or some combination of procedures at the back of and/or behind the ramp to assure him that he'll be hooked in at the moment of commitment to launch

-- is distracted - something has disrupted his routine and/or he's focused on something which runs a very distant second to what he needs to be focused on.

- You can't train anyone to the point at which he will be immune from distraction.

- Randy's beautiful "HOOK IN NOW!" plaque and your proposed "NO UNHOOKED PILOTS BEYOND THIS POINT!" sign are gonna be ten times as invisible to the guy with the dangling carabiner than the are to the people who ARE hooked in.

- ALL ramps have built in "HOOK IN NOW!" sign in plain view of the pilot and anybody else on or at launch the entire time during launch preparation and sequence which can be read by anyone regardless of any language issues.

- It's called a DROP-OFF.

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

- If the pilot or JUST ONE crewman or observer stops looking out for JUST ONE SECOND and LOOKS DOWN and THINKS - an unhooked launch WILL NOT HAPPEN.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.azhpa.org/azhpa_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2871
Kunio Checklist

Merle - 2008/09/05 17:46
AZHPA

Schroeder System

Dan Schroeder has developed a very good system. It is a plastic card that hangs in front of the pilot with a written checklist on it for a good reminder of all things to look at. When you hook in, you detach the card from in front of you, read it, go through your checklist and clip the card to the carabineer. If you ever unhook you place the card in the front position again. When you land you place the card in the front position and leave it there. Does not hurt the glider when you fold it up. When hooked to the carabineer it will not cause any drag.

Simple and 100% effective.

He has approximately thirty of these ready to distribute. At one point he was selling them for $20 or $30. He has offered them free to the club. We will accept donations for them for Kunio's family.

If pilots would put egos aside and use this system, we would never hear about someone not hooked in. Yes... Never!

Dan approached a glider manufacturer about this a couple of years ago. The response was "Great idea, but we don't think pilots will use this because of their ego."

The ego can be such a stupid thing.

Dan Schroeder has developed a very good system.

- Everybody and his freakin' dog has a very good system. If you always wear green socks when you head out for a day at a foot launch site your chances of going off unhooked over the course of a few hundred flights are pretty low.

- Very good systems are what always get in the way of the very best systems and keep them from becoming universal.

- I totally despise very good systems.

It is a plastic card that hangs in front of the pilot with a written checklist on it for a good reminder of all things to look at.

Yeah, I can just imagine all the really critical items it has on it that you didn't take care of in the setup area and need to deal with at the ramp.

Anybody who uses a card like this doesn't really know what he's doing. There isn't all that much you can really screw up on a glider - save for the hook-in and leg loops issue - that:

- matter

- you can't detect a lot faster, easier, and more reliably by looking at the glider and harness and thinking rather than by reading some stupid card. (Sorry.)

When you hook in, you detach the card from in front of you, read it, go through your checklist and clip the card to the carabineer. If you ever unhook you place the card in the front position again.

Great!!! So when you're standing on the edge of a cliff and not seeing the card you can safely assume you're connected to the glider and start running. I love this idea!

Any possibility that...

- after maneuvering the glider around unhooked and/or not in your harness through the setup area and to launch position in some nasty air - that you've acclimated to having the card on the nose and it's no longer registering when you're about to say "Clear!"?

- the reason it's not on the nose is because Mark thought it was such a cool idea that you let him take it to show to Randy right before Hal's glider blew over and everybody forgot about it and it's still in Mark's pocket?

- the reason it's not on the nose is because it's on the carabiner dangling behind your knees where you left it ten minutes ago when you unhooked as a 35 mile per hour surge came through and then wasn't a great time to be transferring it back to the nose?

- you're not seeing the card because it is - in fact - on your carabiner where you put it when you properly hooked in but you missed your leg loops this time and accidentally skipped over that item on the last skim of the checklist?

When you land you place the card in the front position and leave it there.

Unless Mark wants to show it to Randy at the end of the day and talk about it (and that two hundred foot save he made about an hour into his flight) over a couple of beers.

When hooked to the carabineer it will not cause any drag.

Everything in the airflow causes drag. You want these solutions to be as universal as possible and comp pilots and other performance geeks aren't gonna use this.

Simple and 100% effective.

Yeah, right.

He has approximately thirty of these ready to distribute. At one point he was selling them for $20 or $30. He has offered them free to the club. We will accept donations for them for Kunio's family.

A noble, well intentioned effort - but...

If pilots would put egos aside and use this system, we would never hear about someone not hooked in. Yes... Never!

- This isn't an ego issue. This is a training issue.

- If pilots would use ANY system we would never hear about someone not hooked in. The problem is that this - like ALL the other systems glider divers most adore and swear by - is extremely vulnerable to distractions, disruptions, and lapses in discipline.

Dan approached a glider manufacturer about this a couple of years ago. The response was "Great idea, but we don't think pilots will use this because of their ego."

Bullshit. Whomever it was who told him that was an asshole.

What he should've been told - and asked - was...

- It's not great idea. It's a really bad idea.

- When you're standing on the edge of the cliff not seeing the card all you KNOW is that you're not seeing the card.

- You are ASSUMING that the only possible explanation for you not to be seeing the card is that you're connected to your glider.

- There are A LOT of other possible explanations for you not to be seeing the card.

- How is this the least bit superior to ASSUMING that you're connected to the glider because you're in your harness standing under it on the middle of the ramp and your procedure ALWAYS includes a hang check at the back of the ramp?

- How is this the least bit superior to ASSUMING that you're connected to the glider because you're in your harness standing under it on the middle of the ramp and your procedure is to NEVER enter your harness unless it's connected to your glider?

- A launch ramp is an EXTREMELY bad place to be making assumptions of any kind.

- Instead of checking for the ABSENCE of a card on the nose by LOOKING why don't you check for the PRESENCE of a connection to the glider AND an engagement of the leg loops by LIFTING or FLOATING the glider JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH?

- Isn't that what you actually want to know at that stage of operations anyway?

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

And so why didn't the fucking manufacturer say ANYTHING about the goddam USHGA hook-in check requirement?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.azhpa.org/azhpa_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2871
Kunio Checklist

Merle - 2008/09/05 17:46

If pilots would put egos aside and use this system, we would never hear about someone not hooked in. Yes... Never!

Actually Merle...

As it is, the instructors, tow operations, schools, clubs, and USHGA have actually done a damn good jobs of making sure we never hear about the vast majority of unhooked launches. I think they have this situation pretty much under control.