landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

Fletcher - 2012/03/14 13:11:24 UTC

Most of us (me included) don't land as well as we should
Confidence in our abilities makes a HUGE difference
Solution = Ryan Voight or Rob McKenzie landing clinic

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.

This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.

None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

http://vimeo.com/36062225

T2 Landing 2-1-2012

In that case I would need to use the Big O Loop and do about ten reps in a single day.

Andy Long - 2012/03/14 17:28:04 UTC
California

I never use a one-size-fits-all approach to my when and where hand positions because by doing so I'm leaving out valuable tools in my bag of tricks.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

I never use a one-size-fits-all approach to my when and where hand positions because by doing so I'm leaving out valuable tools in my bag of tricks.

<rant> January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone. </rant>

What a breath of fresh, sane air you two are.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

Jim Rooney got banned from there after threatening to delete all of his posts.

I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes.

Despite all the extra roll authority you have with your hands up there. Who'da thunk?

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

Yeah. He's doing a prone wheel landing with a standup flare swapped in three seconds from touchdown.

In that case I would need to use the Big O Loop and do about ten reps in a single day.

'Cause otherwise your landings might not be as consequence free as...

03-1806
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8796/28844596841_aaaea8349c_o.png

05-2121
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2923/13939287462_5dee89d1a9_o.png

07-2216
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7093/13939298491_84b8bab535_o.png

08-2301
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10-2422
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7239/13939293361_34308bc220_o.png


...the one under discussion?

<rant> January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone. </rant>

But...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

... as the Patron Saint of Aerotowing...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

...there's no questioning whatsoever of his one-size-fits-all solution to weak link issues - regardless of how loudly and violently it clashes against every molecule's worth of common sense, grade school arithmetic, practical experience, and crash data.

[miguel]

Fell for the bait again.

A nice landing into a large open expanse, devoid of trees or other large vegetation masses. Most likely, straight into the wind. Getting popped from the side, at low altitude, right when you make your transition to the uprights, makes for an exciting landing.

[Tad Eareckson]

The first two sentences of that paragraph aren't sentences. Neither one contains anything remotely resembling a verb and I can't tell what they're supposed to be referencing so I can't really respond to them.

Moving on to the third...

ABSOLUTELY!!! Getting popped from the side, at low altitude, right when you make your transition to the uprights, DOES make for an exciting landing!

And our goal is to make the landing as boring possible. So...

Wheel landings are mind numbingly boring. They don't even INVOLVE a transition to the uprights - so right at least 95 percent of your entertainment potential has been flushed down the toilet.

But for those landings in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place (that we're always hearing about (but never seeing in the YouTube videos)), Jonathan's approach to the exercise:

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect.

runs a reasonable second place.
Anything I've missed?

[miguel]

The first two sentences of that paragraph aren't sentences. Neither one contains anything remotely resembling a verb and I can't tell what they're supposed to be referencing so I can't really respond to them.

Poor Tad. They are observations. You could not understand them because you used the usage as an excuse to pretend not to understand them. I would fix them but I know you understood the thought behind the observations.

Moving on to the third...

ABSOLUTELY!!! Getting popped from the side, at low altitude, right when you make your transition to the uprights, DOES make for an exciting landing!

And our goal is to make the landing as boring possible. So...

Wheel landings are mind numbingly boring. They don't even INVOLVE a transition to the uprights - so right at least 95 percent of your entertainment potential has been flushed down the toilet.

But for those landings in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place (that we're always hearing about (but never seeing in the YouTube videos)), Jonathan's approach to the exercise:

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect.

I do not think the outcome would be much different. Jonathan seems to pick exciting places to land.

Anything I've missed?

see first sentence above

[Tad Eareckson]

They are observations.

Of what?

You could not understand them because you used the usage as an excuse to pretend not to understand them.

No, actually miguel, sometimes when people tell you they have no idea what you're talking about...

Zack C - 2012/01/18 02:51:37 UTC

I'm not trying to argue semantics...I'm just trying to determine what you're talking about, as I seriously have no idea.

...they seriously have no idea what you're talking about.

I do not think the outcome would be much different.

But he does. And he's the guy who's been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
And in my own my own personal experience, observations of others, and interpretations of crash reports people almost always seem to be happier and more successful when their hands are on the basetube.
And, come to think of it, whenever you refer me to a video of someone you feel is demonstrating superb technique in demanding circumstances, he's employing the precise strategy which Jonathan describes - presumably for similar reasons.

Jonathan seems to pick exciting places to land.

Which is undoubtedly why he picks the boring landing technique to use in them.

see first sentence above

Guess not then.

[miguel]

Guess not then.

Your loss

[Tad Eareckson]

7:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SJu09S-Y0

8-71716


9-72800

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26954
Tandem Operations

Marc Fink - 2012/03/14 13:17:28 UTC

Fairly easy to see what went wrong. Everything depends on the passenger getting rotated up so the both of you are in good position and you can flare. Also, I think your approach was a little wide so your turn into final didn't leave you time/room to get ready.

I was taught by the Voighter--the master of side-by-side tandems like you are doing here. Try a final where you get rotated up a little earlier, then have your passenger do a "push-up" off your back, if necessary, in order to get rotated vertical. Two caveats to foot-landing--make sure you have conditions that allow you to control the glider well high in the control bar and be prepared to run out if necessary, you may end up having to support the weight of your passenger if they can't reach the ground.

Another risk about foot-landing tandems worth mentioning. If something does go wrong and you pound-in--the possibility of you getting hurt goes up significantly (compared to solo) cause of the additional passenger load behind you holding on. I once saw one of the most experienced tandem pilots in the country, if not the world, blow his arm to pieces trying to protect his passenger during a whack tandem. Might be worth considering landing wheels only in all but smooth, predictable conditions.

I was taught by the Voighter--the master of side-by-side tandems like you are doing here.

Also the master of the 130 pound Greenspot...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

...instant hands free release.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC

I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.

So how about wheels and single hang straps (seeing how we've exhumed the dead horses)?

Zack C - 2011/08/31 02:45:17 UTC

So why didn't you release?

Marc Fink - 2011/08/31 08:11:05 UTC

This all happened in a few seconds--in a lock out the line/bridle will likely be caught in your corner bracket further complicating things. I was actually in the process of reaching for the release and just about to pull it when the weaklink blew. If procedures were amended to "insist" on stronger weaklinks I would simply stop towing.

Next time you're locked out you wanna push out. That'll break the weak link and allow you to fly away a lot quicker.

...make sure you have conditions that allow you to control the glider well high in the control bar...

C'mon Marc. It's common knowledge and indisputable fact that your control is BETTER high up on the downtubes than it is proned out on the basetube. Why do you think everybody goes upright whenever the ground starts getting close?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

Just think how many more broken arms we'd get if people DIDN'T go upright whenever the ground started getting close. The toll would be ABSOLUTELY HORRENDOUS!

I once saw one of the most experienced tandem pilots in the country, if not the world, blow his arm to pieces trying to protect his passenger during a whack tandem.

Greg DeWolf, Manquin.

Might be worth considering landing wheels only in all but smooth, predictable conditions.

Yeah, as long as the conditions are smooth and predictable the chances of getting an arm blown to pieces are so close to zero as to barely merit mention.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SJu09S-Y0
Hang Gliding Love Affair - Wallaby Ranch February 28, 2012

Bob Grant - 2012/03/24
London, Ontario

Hang Gliding Love Affair - Wallaby Ranch February 28, 2012

I hope that you like this one. It is February 28, at Wallaby Ranch and it was spectaclar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SJu09S-Y0

8-71716-c
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9-72800-c

Dave Brose (DBrose)
H4
Non-Comp Pilot

cool landing..nice vid and music

The landing alone did it for me.

Tom Low
Belmont, California

Nice flyin', but why the wheel landing?

Why the hell NOT the wheel landing? Why would a sane person do it any other way?

Why would ANYONE risk a bonk, whack, bent downtube, dislocated shoulder, broken arm, or back injury for no reason whatsoever?

Why aren't you saying, "Nice flyin', but why the wheel takeoff?"?

Shouldn't he be foot launching to maintain his proficiency in getting off of a narrow dry slot with large rocks strewn all over the place over the narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place his club uses for a primary?

Bob Grant

I had a bad knee injury years ago so I have used wheels since.

That could mean you had a bad knee injury years ago:
- BECAUSE of totally unnecessary standup landing (à la Kevin Carter) and don't wanna have another one.
- doing something less stupid and need to minimize the stupid things you do in this sport because you can't afford fuck up that knee again.

I did four stand up landings last year when necasary in plowed fields and it workd out OK.

1. Bullshit. It's common knowledge that it's physically impossible to pull off a standup landing in a situation which requires it if you ever even once in your flying career do a wheel landing in a situation which doesn't.

2. Damn. I had so hoped that the sole reason you were wheel landing was 'cause you were smart enough to have figured out that it was stupid not to. But I guess the spelling should've been a tipoff.

[Tad Eareckson]

miguel - 2012/01/17 16:47:08 UTC

It is much easier to move quickly and strongly from side to side when upright.

Bob Kuczewski - 2012/01/17 19:31:28 UTC

I have to agree with miguel here. I believe pitch authority is greater on the base tube, but roll authority is much quicker and more authoritative when upright. No doubt about it.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Davis Straub - 2012/03/27 12:44:42 UTC

The hands low on the down tubes (Andy Jackson Flight Park, San Bernardino)

Steve Pearson at Wills Wings shows how to land:

No step landing. My hands are never higher. Lateral control is the most important factor for a good landing.

Pearson whacks Greblo (Thanks to Joe Bostik):

http://vimeo.com/39102874
Pearson whacks Greblo
Steven Pearson - 2012/03/24 10:51
21-2300

dead