instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

What is yours?
That there are tons of dangerous totally moronic things that damn near everybody in hang gliding does just 'cause they've always done them that way.
Tad Eareckson opines...
NO. That was NOT Tad Eareckson expressing an OPINION. Tad Eareckson avoids expressing and listening to opinions on hang gliding issues like the plague. That was Tad Eareckson QUOTING a STATEMENT of Jim Rooney's. I haven't even expressed an opinion on whether or not it's accurate - but common sense and an overwhelming preponderance of anecdotal evidence indicates beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt that it is. But please be extremely careful about attributing the words of one individual to another - especially when one of the individuals is Jim Rooney and the other is ME.
It works.
So does this:

7:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SJu09S-Y0

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And if I'm looking for potential role models for my nephew guess which one of those guys is gonna make the first cut.
Tad, you can land whatever way works for you.
I have no intention of ever taking off in - let alone landing - a hang glider again. I just want people to start questioning the way they're doing things.
I will land whatever way works for me.
- Can you quote me ever advising you on your landing technique?

- I have zero interest in techniques and equipment that "work" for people. For example... There are thousands of morons like Terry Mason for whom a hang check at the back of the ramp or in the setup area has "worked" to keep them from launching without their gliders for a third of a century.

- I am ONLY interested in examples of shit techniques and equipment NOT working - especially when they're captured on video.

http://vimeo.com/16572582

password - red
2-112
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkElZMhpmp0
Again, foot landing is not that difficult especially if you are taught from day 1.
That's absolute rubbish.

I was taught from Day 1. I taught hundreds of students from Day 1. I've been around hundreds of pilots who were all taught from Day 1. I've seen countless people temporarily injured and permanently crippled out of the sport solely because they were doing the standup landings they were taught on Day 1 by assholes like me in situations that didn't demand - or even suggest - standup landings.

In light or switchy air these are demanding, inherently dangerous techniques and if you get halfway competent in them but reserve their employment for situations which actually call for them...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25620
Hang Gliding Love Affair - Wallaby Ranch February 28, 2012
Bob Grant - 2012/03/24 18:24:43 UTC

I had a bad knee injury years ago so I have used wheels since.
I did four stand up landings last year when necasary in plowed fields and it workd out OK.
...EXACTLY the way Bob Grant is doing, your probabilities of crashing, bending and breaking downtubes, and getting arms ripped out of sockets and broken are gonna plummet.

Furthermore...

Anybody who requires or emphasizes standup landings on Day 1 students is an asshole. There is less than ZERO need or advantage to be working on standup landings until/unless the student is gearing up to go XC - and not a whole helluva lot even at that point.

But, nevertheless, everybody and his fuckin' dog requires an effort and focus on standup landings from Day 1, Flight 1 - and forever thereafter.

And what actually IS critical from Day 1, Flight 1 and forever thereafter is that the student NEVER move a foot on the assumption that he's connected to his glider. But NOBODY or his fuckin' dog subscribes to that approach.
Maybe a change of approach might affect more change.
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=883
What will keep the US Hawks from becoming another USHPA or HGAA?
Warren Narron - 2012/03/16 16:28:48 UTC

Tad wasn't always so hostile and aggressive. Early on in his quest to change dangerous/dogmatic procedures and improve the chance of safety to his fellow pilots, I was awed at how much crap he actually took... course he finally snapped and let the pent up anger fly and I can't really blame him. Willful ignorance pisses me off too.
This IS the change of approach. Get used to it.
miguel
Posts: 289
Joined: 2011/05/27 16:21:08 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by miguel »

Tad Eareckson wrote:
What is yours?
That there are tons of dangerous totally moronic things that damn near everybody in hang gliding does just 'cause they've always done them that way.
Tad Eareckson opines...
NO. That was NOT Tad Eareckson expressing an OPINION. Tad Eareckson avoids expressing and listening to opinions on hang gliding issues like the plague. That was Tad Eareckson QUOTING a STATEMENT of Jim Rooney's. I haven't even expressed an opinion on whether or not it's accurate - but common sense and an overwhelming preponderance of anecdotal evidence indicates beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt that it is. But please be extremely careful about attributing the words of one individual to another - especially when one of the individuals is Jim Rooney and the other is ME.
Tad quoting Jim Rooney! Now that is surprising. Must be time for the lions to sleep with the lambs.
don Miguel wrote:Again, foot landing is not that difficult especially if you are taught from day 1.
Tad Eareckson wrote:I was taught from Day 1. I taught hundreds of students from Day 1. I've been around hundreds of pilots who were all taught from Day 1. I've seen countless people temporarily injured and permanently crippled out of the sport solely because they were doing the standup landings they were taught on Day 1 by assholes like me in situations that didn't demand - or even suggest - standup landings.

In light or switchy air these are demanding, inherently dangerous techniques and if you get halfway competent in them but reserve their employment for situations which actually call for them...
Tad Eareckson wrote:That's absolute rubbish.
FIFY =Fixed it for you. I moved your quote to where it made more sense.
I will agree with that.

Landing on your feet is a good option to have in your hang gliding skill set. As you know, there are situations where wheel landings are inappropriate and dangerous.
Tad Eareckson wrote:Furthermore...

Anybody who requires or emphasizes standup landings on Day 1 students is an asshole. There is less than ZERO need or advantage to be working on standup landings until/unless the student is gearing up to go XC - and not a whole helluva lot even at that point.

But, nevertheless, everybody and his fuckin' dog requires an effort and focus on standup landings from Day 1, Flight 1 - and forever thereafter.
Thinking back to my first experience with a hang glider: It was at the bottom of the training hill. The exercise was to run with the glider then flair it. Not hard for someone who has never tried hang gliding before. Try that with run with the glider and land the glider on the wheels. It is a natural progression to run on your feet and then land on your feet.
Tad Eareckson wrote:And what actually IS critical from Day 1, Flight 1 and forever thereafter is that the student NEVER move a foot on the assumption that he's connected to his glider. But NOBODY or his fuckin' dog subscribes to that approach.
It is all in the presentation.
Maybe a change of approach might affect more change.
Warren Narron - 2012/03/16 16:28:48 UTC

Tad wasn't always so hostile and aggressive. Early on in his quest to change dangerous/dogmatic procedures and improve the chance of safety to his fellow pilots, I was awed at how much crap he actually took... course he finally snapped and let the pent up anger fly and I can't really blame him. Willful ignorance pisses me off too.
Tad Eareckson wrote:This IS the change of approach. Get used to it.
For me, I could care less. After all, it is only internet entertainment. But there are plenty of pilots that could benefit from your advice. Sadly, at best, they will see you as hang gliding's equivalent to Don Quixite. At worst, a rabid, frothing buffoon with his own website. The choice is yours.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Tad quoting Jim Rooney! Now that is surprising.
Then you must not be reading Kite Strings very much. I quote Jim Rooney so much that if you google:

"hang gliding" "Jim Rooney"

we come up on Page 3. I quote Jim Rooney like Jon Stewart quotes Rush Limbaugh. I especially love quoting Jim Rooney when he accidentally says something right that totally contradicts some lunatic crap he's said or is saying elsewhere. Such is the case here.
Must be time for the lions to sleep with the lambs.
Not in this millennium. The guy's total scum on more levels and in more fields than I care to count. And fuck anybody who wants anything to do with him.
Landing on your feet is a good option to have in your hang gliding skill set.
Quote me something in which I've expressed the slightest disagreement with that position.
As you know, there are situations where wheel landings are inappropriate and dangerous.
That one too.

However...

I WILL reiterate that it's a real bad idea for anyone to put himself in situations in which he NEEDS to use that option in his skill set.

This is analogous to my release systems. I've worked my ass off ripping off the best ideas on the planet, adding a few of my own, and refining the hell out of the mix. My stuff is brutally powerful and bulletproof as hell. But don't EVER let yourself get into a situation in which you NEED more than about a tenth of the capability. Try to stay within the bounds of operation in which even the total shit that Matt sells won't get you killed.
The exercise was to run with the glider then flair it.
Great. Super. Excellent. I've got nothing negative to say about that ('cept for the spelling of "flair").
Not hard for someone who has never tried hang gliding before.
Also not hard - or useless - for someone who's had half a dozen lessons.
Try that with run with the glider and land the glider on the wheels.
What do you mean "LAND" the glider on the wheels? You can't LAND the glider 'cause you haven't taken off. You're still on your feet on flat solid ground at the bottom of the training hill with very little prospect of becoming airborne.
It is a natural progression to run on your feet and then land on your feet.
'Cept you left out the flying part. And the flying part is why people enter and participate in this sport. NOBODY gets into hang gliding so he can run a takeoff and naturally progress to land on his feet. And running off a slope, flying around for an hour, rotating back up and stopping on your feet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mp7Qwn2Ik


is NOT a natural progression. If it were you wouldn't always hear people gushing with admiration whenever some hotshot air junkie manages to pull it off in a dignified manner.

THIS:

7:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SJu09S-Y0

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is a natural progression - from flying the way hang gliders are supposed to be flown to landing the way hang gliders should almost always be landed. That's thing of gentleness and beauty. That's how a Tundra Swan lands in no wind on a glassy river surface. That's a sailplane landing. It's the most natural progression in the world. It's the way EVERYBODY ELSE who flies fixed wing aircraft ALWAYS lands.

Furthermore...

There's a HUGE chunk of flying nowadays that has absolutely no need whatsoever of running on either end of the flight - from Hang Zero to Five, from scooter or tandem aero tow training on up.
It is all in the presentation.
There is no presentation. The motherfuckers running this sport are all working overtime to erase as many traces of hook-in check policy as they possibly can.
For me, I could care less. After all, it is only internet entertainment.
I'm not entirely sure...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13132
Unhooked Death Again - Change our Methods Now?
Jason Rogers - 2008/10/14 20:52:01 UTC
Port Macquarie, New South Wales

Thanks for this discussion. I spent most of my flying time at a rounded hill takeoff, where this really isn't that much of an issue. I don't think I was placing the right sort of importance on being hooked in... So now that I'm flying less "forgiving" sites, you may well have saved my life.
...you're gonna find universal agreement on that point.
But there are plenty of pilots that could benefit from your advice.
1. How? It's only internet entertainment.

2. Great! Then you should have no problem whatsoever getting it across to them in my absence.
Sadly, at best, they will see you as hang gliding's equivalent to Don Quixite.
Nah, at best they'll see me like:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12403
weak link table
ian9toes - 2009/06/11 09:39:02
Pacific Palms, New South Wales

Thank you for going out of your way to educate us. I've never done any towing so it's all Dutch to me, but when I do I'll be revisiting this thread.

I'm sorry you copped some flack when you were actually posting hang gliding stuff on a hang gliding website, especially when the threads "Hang Gliders' Gardens" and "we luv cats" are sitting on twelve and twenty pages.
At worst, a rabid, frothing buffoon with his own website.
Or they can go over to The Bob Show and see me as an unrepentant child molester (amongst the ruins in which I left that dump). So I can't really worry too much or give a flying fuck what these assholes are gonna see me as.

The math, physics, engineering, and procedures here are solid. They want to use them to keep from dying doing what they love - fine. They wanna ignore it and...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

<rant> January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone. </rant>
...continue to guzzle the Kool-Aid from the stupid scum with whom they have such strong natural affinities then *I* keep getting more internet entertainment.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=992
Continuing Saga of Weak Link and Release Mechanism Failures
Warren Narron - 2012/03/06 02:26:04 UTC

There is a good chance that from now on, for every incident and fatality caused by insufficient weaklinks or sub-standard release mechanisms, a hyperlink trail will lead back to Tadtriedtowarnyou.com ... where all the evidence can be found.

A further link could then go to a list of all the people and the role they played in the suppression of those safety issues...
And that's fine too.
---
2022/05/15 18::00:00 UTC

Do the Rooney search now. We're quite prominent on the Page 1 results.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure
deltaman - 2012/03/27 14:35:38 UTC

emphasis on not letting go of the bar to release
Jonathan Boarini - 2012/03/05 18:27:46 UTC

I personally don't agree with the emphasis on not letting go of the bar to release. I've had numerous lockout situations where I've had to quickly release and the instant it took for me to do it with the normal bicycle release was a non issue, and that design seems to work perfectly under high loads.
Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09 15:50

Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude.
Zack C - 2012/03/14 05:16:10 UTC

As long as your weight shift is opposing the lockout, it's still helping. Take a hand off the bar while you're fighting a lockout and your attitude will immediately worsen. At altitude this won't matter, but near the ground it could be a big deal.

And if you're just approaching a lockout, taking a hand off the bar could be the very thing that puts you into a lockout.
Look at this video at 4:16:

4:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC1yrdDV4sI


The guy let go the bar to release and his body twist immediately and his feet fall inside the turn making it worse.

That's enough to me to understand why you need two hands on the bar. At a safe altitude it's not an issue, cloth to the ground it makes a big difference..
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Jim Gaar - 2012/03/27 15:13:24 UTC

I see a pilot that is cross controlling and waiting until it's too late to get back inline with the tug. IMO when on tow one is firm and aggressive in staying and getting back online with the tow. It's a textured day in the video so the pilot should have been more keen to stay inline.
Yeah, it was a textured day. Right up until the point he locks out and pries himself off tow. Then it immediately becomes smooth as glass and stays that way for the remainder of the flight.

You see those sorts of conditions a lot at aerotow operations with shitty instructors.
This wasn't a bad tow, just a pilot that was too casual in his tracking under the given conditions.
Yeah. That was the problem. This guy just wasn't taking his job seriously enough. Way too relaxed.
I didn't see any "falling" into the opposite side of the control frame after release. I do see more cross controlling...
Moron.
islandLPN - 2012/03/28 00:44:54 UTC
Southwest Florida

South West Florida Ridge

Hey man so How long have you been at the ridge? I went there a few years ago and went hanggliding a number of times trying to learn but only did about half the class.. Do you have a little to tell me about whats going on up there lately? I was thinking of giving it another go if i could get a setup together..
Terry Ryan - 2012/03/28 02:02:45 UTC

By all means, give it another go. They've progressed a lot over the last few years. Come out during the events and immerse yourself in the camaraderie. It's too bad they don't have a training hill, but those are just not available in southern Florida. So aerotowing is a darn good alternative. If you do give it another go, try to hook up with another novice pilot. Do it together and compare notes.
All the best,
TR
Just what hang gliding really needs - more camaraderie.

They actually DO have a training hill:

http://vimeo.com/1833509


- right in the middle of the runway.
Terry Ryan - 2012/03/28 02:59:30 UTC

Regarding Deltaman's Video ....
- it looks to me that there is a turn in the glider. The pilot is weight shifting to the left MUCH more than to the right.
- Where's the turn after the glider comes off tow?
- How come Outback doesn't SAY ANYTHING about a turn?

The guy CAN'T FLY. PERIOD. He's all over the place and almost always at the wrong place at the wrong time. If there IS any kind of a turn in the glider it's so astoundingly dwarfed by what Outback is and isn't doing to and with the glider that it's in no imaginable way a relevant factor.
- in weight shifting, the pilot is moving his chest too much. To weight shift while on tow, you must lead with your feet and try to keep your chest centered.
In weight shifting he mostly ISN'T weight shifting.
- he does not appear to be pulling in the bar when he needs to enhance his weight shift when really needed.
Right. He can't fly.
So much to learn.
Yeah. Kinda makes you wonder who qualified him to solo aerotow - solo PERIOD as a matter of fact - and who sold him...
A minimum USHGA Intermediate (III) level of pilot proficiency is required to fly the Sport 2
safely. Pilots are advised that the optimum proficiency level for the Sport 2 is higher than the minimum recommended. Operation of the glider by unqualified or under qualified pilots may be dangerous.
Wills Wing Dealership Requirements/Guidelines

We at Wills Wing feel that the most important role of the dealer is to insure the safety of the retail customer and promote the safe growth of the sport by offering quality instruction and service. It is primarily on our determination of your ability to do that that we grant dealerships and corresponding discounts.

The responsibilities of a Wills Wing HANG GLIDER DEALER include:

A) Offering competent, safe instruction in the proper and safe use of hang gliding equipment.
...a glider which requires solid Hang Three level proficiency when he, arguably, doesn't even have solid Hang One level proficiency.
It is clear that altitude saved him.
NO SHIT.
The main thing for us all to learn is to recognize the initial onset of lockout and get off line BEFORE the tension builds up ESPECIALLY when close to the ground.
BULLSHIT.

- This lockout was precipitated ENTIRELY by and because of someone who was TOTALLY unqualified to start a flight from anything over forty or fifty feet on the fuckin' training hill. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the kind of real world situations that people with reasonable pilot proficiency skills are gonna hafta deal with.

- I hate to tell ya this but there:
-- wasn't a whole lot of tension building up in that situation.
-- isn't a whole lot of tension that builds up in MOST lethal situations

- But what you're really saying is you need to get off tow before your piece of shit release - which is legally required to be able to handle twice weak link - is overloaded.
Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link
Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
- And in the real world - I don't give a rat's ass who the hell you are - you're not gonna be able to do it.
Fly safe,
TR
Not a prayer.
PS: He should definitely lubricate the inside of his release cable. We all should.
- Does it say that in the owner's manual?

- Did:
-- Matt put out an advisory to that effect?
-- Kitty Hawk Kites put out an advisory to that effect?

- Did Wills Wing put out an advisory to that effect? Or are they too busy pretending to build Screamers into their harnesses so they can pretend to be keeping their customers safe?
Dennis, at the Ridge, recommends NAPA Chain & Cable Lube because it goes in like a liquid and sets up like a grease.
Fuck Dennis at the Ridge. I haven't heard him going out on the wire and putting out an advisory on this issue and he's towing gliders up with bent pin backup releases and standard 130 pound Greenspot aerotow weak links - at least one of which put someone in the hospital.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure
deltaman - 2012/03/28 07:30:30 UTC

Hi Blindrodie,
Fuck Blindrodie.
Please try to let go a hand during a turn and notice your body shift. One hand is not enough to keep your body in the middle of your control bar and even less to reverse the turn: your feet fall inside the turn and that is the same for everybody. The pics show it clearly to you.

This lack of control close to the ground could be the deal that will hurt you.
Craig Hassan - 2012/03/28 11:02:21 UTC
Ohio

Once in a lock out, you can't correct it with two hands on the bar, a foot around the high wire, and a lead weight hanging on the high wing.
Bullshit. A lockout is an overwhelming of the control authority of the pilot in a given set of circumstances on tow at a particular time. If you alter the conditions of those circumstances...

- come off the side of the thermal
- reduce tow tension
- fly the tug in the direction of the lockout
- have the monkey in the double surface run to the high wing

...it's possible to recover from a lockout.
At the point the photos show the pilot should be "going with it" and flying out of the turn, not still fighting it.
STILL *FIGHTING* IT?!?!?!

Show me the part at which he makes the slightest effort to follow the tug into the turn.
A pilot needs to know when enough is enough, and change plans before enough is too much.
He actually DID. He knew the tow was over and tried to abort it. But his piece of shit Lockout Release wouldn't let him. And consequently when he was finally able to pry it open he was rolled beyond ninety on a glider that's only certified to go to sixty. And that could've very easily spelled the difference between let's-get-back-on-the-cart-and-give-it-another-try and a fatality report for Tim Herr to redact.
I can say I have never locked out on tow.
Well that's just wonderful! You must be a really awesome tow pilot!
I have pulled the pin because I've been out of whack.
So I guess this whole lockout thing really isn't much of a problem after all. All we hafta do is pull the pin when we get out of whack.
As far as "pro towing" a Sport 2, I was told to take my fin off on one tow, and the upper bridle off on the next one (then I got my AT sign-off) Never looked back to the upper rigging. I towed my Sport 2, U2, Climax and MRX pro-tow.
Great! So towing one point is just as safe as towing two.
Pro-towing is just flying your glider fast.
How much faster do you fly towing one point? How much does the tug speed up when he notices that he's got a one-pointer in the mirror?
Using the 2 point tow system I always felt like I was a passenger on a ride. With the single point I feel like I am flying the glider. I'm sure that feeling is also the same reason 2 point systems are safer, or at least easier. The glider, not being towed by the keel, has more chance to oscillate in yaw and pitch.
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

Soon after liftoff the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike. I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
And you also lose a lot of the speed range for which the glider was certified. (Bet Dennis sure felt like a passenger on a ride for all but the last couple of seconds of that tow flight.)

By the way Craig...

Are you using the same stuff on your shoulders that all the other pros use? Just kidding.
miguel
Posts: 289
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by miguel »

Tad Eareckson wrote:I WILL reiterate that it's a real bad idea for anyone to put himself in situations in which he NEEDS to use that option in his skill set.
My first wheel landings:

My first glider came with wheels which I used to roll it up the hill. The light bulb lit up and I decided to land it on the wheels. The wheels were the Hall brothers split wheels. The first one was a perfect 3 pointer with little roll. I was jazzed to try a rolling wheel landing. The wheels touched down lightly. They then found fresh cow patties and slung the shit on the sail and me. Then in slow motion both wheels split apart and shit was really flying. The glider came to an instant stop, and my face and helmet scooped up a giant cow pattie. Good thing there were no video cams.

There are many other places where a foot landing is the better option.
Tad Eareckson wrote:This is analogous to my release systems. I've worked my ass off ripping off the best ideas on the planet, adding a few of my own, and refining the hell out of the mix. My stuff is brutally powerful and bulletproof as hell. But don't EVER let yourself get into a situation in which you NEED more than about a tenth of the capability. Try to stay within the bounds of operation in which even the total shit that Matt sells won't get you killed.
No argument, but the reality is that you have to use whatever the owner of the towing aparatus tells you.
Tad Eareckson wrote:What do you mean "LAND" the glider on the wheels? You can't LAND the glider 'cause you haven't taken off. You're still on your feet on flat solid ground at the bottom of the training hill with very little prospect of becoming airborne.
Tad, out here, the next step after running on the flat is to advance up the hill a bit. You run, get some air under your feet, flare, and land.

Now can you see the progression?

Image

Mr Rodgers and I knew you could!

And now can you see how difficult it would be for the fledge to run, go prone and land the glider on the wheels.

Mr. Rogers and I both knew you could!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mp7Qwn2Ik
Tad Eareckson wrote:It is NOT a natural progression. If it were you wouldn't always hear people gushing with admiration whenever some hotshot air junkie manages to pull it off in a dignified manner.
I knew Noman when he was a fledge. He has come a long way. Around here, all good landings are gushed over. Bad ones unless there is carnage, elicit guffaws.
Tad Eareckson wrote:THIS:

7:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SJu09S-Y0

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is a natural progression - from flying the way hang gliders are supposed to be flown to landing the way hang gliders should almost always be landed. That's thing of gentleness and beauty. That's how a Tundra Swan lands in no wind on a glassy river surface. That's a sailplane landing. It's the most natural progression in the world. It's the way EVERYBODY ELSE who flies fixed wing aircraft ALWAYS lands.
I see the beauty but some of us do not aspire to land on putting greens. Most of us do not have putting greens available for training or in the lz.

It is prudent for everyone to learn how to foot land and to foot land well.
It is all in the presentation.
Tad Eareckson wrote:There is no presentation. The motherfuckers running this sport are all working overtime to erase as many traces of hook-in check policy as they possibly can.
If no one reads what you wrote, it becomes like the question of fallen trees not making a sound if nobody hears it.
Tad Eareckson wrote:1. How? It's only internet entertainment.
For me, this is cheap entertainment. Others, I am sure a few read and comprehend; most are unaware as they do not read the board.
Sadly, at best, they will see you as hang gliding's equivalent to Don Quixite.
Tad Eareckson wrote:Nah, at best they'll see me like:
ian9toes - 2009/06/11 09:39:02 UTC
Pacific Palms, New South Wales

Thank you for going out of your way to educate us. I've never done any towing so it's all Dutch to me, but when I do I'll be revisiting this thread.

I'm sorry you copped some flack when you were actually posting hang gliding stuff on a hang gliding website, especially when the threads "Hang Gliders' Gardens" and "we luv cats" are sitting on twelve and twenty pages.
At worst, a rabid, frothing buffoon with his own website.
Or they can go over to The Bob Show and see me as an unrepentant child molester (amongst the ruins in which I left that dump). So I can't really worry too much or give a flying fuck what these assholes are gonna see me as.

The math, physics, engineering, and procedures here are solid. They want to use them to keep from dying doing what they love - fine. They wanna ignore it and...
check the date. *2009* It is now 2012, and you have been banished and marginalized to your own website.

Question: Who was the first to mention 'child molestation' on the Bob Show board. You or Bob?
Steve Davy
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Steve Davy »

The glider, not being towed by the keel, has more chance to oscillate in yaw and pitch.
Is that statement accurate?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

My first glider came with wheels which I used to roll it up the hill.
I'll take a wild guess that the glider was certified to do the job it needed to do in some fairly nasty air and the wheels were just something round that someone felt like calling wheels.
The light bulb lit up and I decided to land it on the wheels.
Why? Aren't foot landings such a piece of cake that wheel landings never need be considered?
The wheels were the Hall brothers split wheels.
I don't think so. I think they were the German snap-off jobs that got both of Boy Oyng's arms broken.
The first one was a perfect 3 pointer with little roll. I was jazzed to try a rolling wheel landing.
Yeah, they're kinda fun, aren't they?
The wheels touched down lightly. They then found fresh cow patties and slung the shit on the sail and me.
Just like they'd have done if you'd flared late and gotten behind the glider a bit. There have been a lot of people who've come into pastures - Yours Truly included - with the very best of intentions regarding foot landings and ended up seriously slimed anyway. But getting slimed is very far from the worst thing that can happen to you on a landing.
There are many other places where a foot landing is the better option.
There are TONS of other places where a foot landing is the better option - almost all of them easily avoidable.
No argument, but the reality is that you have to use whatever the owner of the towing aparatus tells you.
Luen Miller - 1996/10
USHGA Accident Review Committee Chairman

We have two more fatalities because of a glider that couldn't be released from tow. Again, the fatalities occurred in a training situation in which a student should reasonably not be expected to do everything perfectly.

I am strongly recommending formal review and analysis of releases and weak link designs for all methods of towing by the Towing Committee, and that recommendations on adoption or improvements be generated.

I believe that from preflight through release we should have more standardized procedures in towing.
Which is why we need enforced equipment standards - just like we have for the gliders.

The HGMA got a lot of lethal junk cleared out of the sky and we need to do something just like it to put serial killing motherfuckers like Matt Taber and Jim Rooney permanently out of business.
Tad, out here, the next step after running on the flat is to advance up the hill a bit.
Yeah, that's the next step pretty much anywhere - but that's not the scenario you presented.
Mr Rodgers and I knew you could!
What indication did you have that I didn't already?
And now can you see how difficult it would be for the fledge to run, go prone and land the glider on the wheels.
No. I can't. That's a description of my first flight ever - 1980/04/02, Kitty Hawk Kites, under Jim Johns. It was wonderful and brain dead easy and what zillions of my own students did on their first flights ever.
I knew Noman when he was a fledge. He has come a long way.
Damn near all of us have. This isn't a sport that takes much in the way of brains.
Around here, all good landings are gushed over.
1. Around EVERYWHERE.
2. PRECISELY.
Bad ones unless there is carnage, elicit guffaws.
1. Right. They're commonplace.
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
2. They're commonplace because they're too fucking demanding for your average Joe with perfectly good flying skills...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.
...to pull off on a regular enough basis to be safe.

3. Let he who is without sin...

4. People who guffaw at people who bonk landings can go fuck themselves. Sometimes marginally bonked landings can result in a lot of suffering and misery.
I see the beauty but some of us do not aspire to land on putting greens.
1. Show me the videos of people NOT landing on putting greens.
2. This guy - Bob Grant - doesn't just land on putting greens.
I did four stand up landings last year when necasary in plowed fields and it workd out OK.
3. However...

Saturday crash
chga@mail.folkriver.com
Paul Tjaden - 2004/04/26 17:01:06 UTC

As Lauren, wrote in her earlier post, we were having a ball working the light lift as we flew downwind together. Lauren had more than held up her end on several occasions and we were doing quite well with gains to just under 4800 msl. It's hard to explain how much joy there is in flying and working the sky together thousands of feet in the air with your Honey and life partner. Definitely the high point of my flying career.

Anyway, we were just past fifteen miles out and getting quite low for the first time. With my faster glider, I had taken the lead looking for lift and Lauren was following a couple hundred yards to my right when she radioed she had something she thought was workable. I immediately turned back towards her but hit outrageous sink as I attempted to reach her location. I managed to make it to her but had lost too much altitude and at four hundred feet was unable to get back up.

There was a friendly field just below me but I could see the grass and small weeds blowing dramatically as the thermal Lauren was climbing in pulled air in from nearby. I chose the side of the field away from this disturbance and started an uneventful approach to an obvious upwind landing. Everything seemed quite normal until just before I started my round out. At that time I felt a sudden acceleration and drop and my groundspeed increased dramatically. Can't be certain, but I think it may have been the rush of air going outward from the sink usually found on the outer edge of thermals.

At any rate, I suddenly found myself in a strong downwind situation. Never really had time to flare, just found myself being pounded in to the ground at fairly high speed. The soil was too soft and sandy for my wheels to roll and I whacked hard. The glider never went over on top and I didn't break or bend any aluminum so it must have not been that extreme but apparently I was thrown through the control frame violently enough to cause a spiral fracture of my left humerus.

When the dust settled, I found it difficult to get the glider off of me and to get on my feet. It was then I realized I couldn't use or feel my left arm. Looking over my left shoulder, I saw it hanging behind me at a ridiculous angle. I reached over with my right hand and grabbed my left wrist to pull it forward and, to my horror, it honestly felt like a limp peace of meat. Now don't laugh here but for a while I thought I had mangled it so badly that it was only being held on by my jacket and some sinew. It really scared the hell out of me. Apparently, the main nerve runs along the broken bone and was so traumatized that it shut down for a while. I was not completely convinced it was still attached until the feeling started returning and Lauren was able to help me out of my jacket.
...the less ideal the surface you're coming down to the thinner you're cutting your margins - no matter what kind of landing you're planning on doing.

4. And my guess is that if you rewind the tape and put Paul's hands on the basetube he comes out smelling like a rose.

5. And four years, eight months, and one week later - on the Quest Air putting green...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3695
good day until the wreck
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/12/31 04:29:12 UTC

very light conditions at quest. me, paul, dustin, carl and jamie were going to fly out and back but not high enough so we flew around the patch. i worked small lift using carl's tips...he is english where conditions are weak, and is 2nd in world.

came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.

bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.

turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming. finally they got it done but then they had a hard time waking me back up. drugs were so wierd by the end i could not leave for hours, i'd just start bawling for no reason.
Most of us do not have putting greens available for training or in the lz.
1. As far as I've been able to tell damn near all of you actually DO.
2. Anybody training somebody in an environment that doesn't afford safe wheel landings should be stood up in front of a fuckin' wall.
If no one reads what you wrote, it becomes like the question of fallen trees not making a sound if nobody hears it.
People ARE reading what I write. This thread, for example, is currently averaging over eleven hits per post. That ain't rockstardom but it's better than nothing and the total hits on a thread will never go down.
For me, this is cheap entertainment.
1. You may not be paying for it but there's an ENORMOUS effort involved in producing it.
2. Have you seen nothing in it that could keep somebody's arm or neck from getting broken?
Others, I am sure a few read and comprehend; most are unaware as they do not read the board.
Yeah? And...?

Hang gliding is globally controlled by massively corrupt entities who can't afford to have the messages I'm putting out heard and understood by a lot of people. What did you expect?
It is now 2012, and you have been banished and marginalized to your own website.
What better proof that I'm doing things right?
Question: Who was the first to mention 'child molestation' on the Bob Show board. You or Bob?
I dunno, miguel...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=884
The Bob Show
Bob Kuczewski - 2011/12/13 05:55:39 UTC

If I boot you permanently it will be due to my concerns over the topic we discussed on the phone. This forum should be a safe place for people of varying ages to visit. You have not given me any assurances that's true with you on this forum.
Is your IQ in the:
-a) lower; or
-b) higher
single digits?

If you answered "a" I'll 'splain it to you...
- Bob's a lying sleazeball politician who saw me as a threat to his sleazeball political agenda.
- Bob tried to use sleazy political tactics - intimidation, innuendo, distortion, lies, blackmail - to neutralize me.
- Bob was/is too fuckin' stupid to understand who he's trying to screw over and think ahead a couple of chess moves.
- There's only one way to respond to a move like that and I'm a fuckin' expert at it.
- Look at the results.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

P.S.
Bob tried to use sleazy political tactics - intimidation, innuendo, distortion, lies, blackmail - to neutralize me.
Forgot appeal to bigotry and hypocrisy.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Nobody - 2012/03/28 20:23:51 UTC
The glider, not being towed by the keel, has more chance to oscillate in yaw and pitch.
Is that statement accurate?
Wow. I missed that. I had read it as "yaw and roll".

No. It's crap.

- NOBODY, not even Outback, oscillates in pitch on tow - or in any other circumstances that come to mind.

- And a glider on tow - one point or two - or off is very pitch stable.

- If the tug's going too fast you're gonna find out just how pitch stable it is 'cause it's not gonna wanna stabilize where you want it to stabilize.

- Having an attachment on the keel doesn't hurt yaw stability any but the glider's still yaw stable - on or off tow - and won't oscillate because of its absence.

- A glider on tow is very roll unstable and when there's anything going on with the air the pilot is almost constantly making small corrections.

- But if he doesn't the glider won't oscillate - it'll lock out in one direction or the other.

- What makes the glider on tow oscillate in roll is the same thing that makes it oscillate off tow when it's going fast - the pilot.

- A pilot is much more likely to oscillate in roll one point than two because:
-- he has all the tow force being transmitted through him and thus has more control authority than he's used to; and
-- he's holding back-pressure on the basetube and that's not helping him with the feel of things.

Thanks much for the catch.
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