landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25688
The Daily Carnage

Tim May - 2012/03/30 18:44:33 UTC
Boston

I saw a HG come in hot on sand, basebar touched the ground and dug in, he kept his hands on the DT, and SNAP. Spiral fracture.

[MikeLake]

TEST TEST Can't post for 3 days

[MikeLake]

Ok now I can but Tad has said it anyway.

[Tad Eareckson]

Damn. Wish you had been able to get through. It's always so nice when I hear this stuff from somebody other than me.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25713
Hang Gliding after knee surgery

hanggliderdoc - 2012/04/02 19:40:25 UTC

I recently had surgery to repair my patella after a sports related injury. I'm a bit hesitant to jump into hang gliding as a result. Anyone experience hang gliding after knee surgery? How long do you recommend waiting?

Ross Lowery - 2012/04/02 20:28:18 UTC
Arkansas
As soon as you can "walk,jog,run" with a glider on your shoulders without pain thats all I have, sorry.

Can you think of any ways to get a glider into the air that don't involve walking, jogging, OR running?

nulld - 2012/04/02 20:49:38 UTC
West Virginia

I had an ACL injury before I had ten flights off the mountain and wasn't able to fly for three months. My doctor wanted to see if the small tear would heal itself, so I had to go through physical therapy and wear a knee brace. After three months, I was allowed to fly with limitations until my knee stabilized. For example, I was only allowed to land on wheels because of the strain landing would have on the ACL (apparently, my doc had seen me land. lol). As my knee stabilized, I was able to go back to regular training.

Yeah. Regular training to help you perfect SAFE landings.

Bob Flynn - 2012/04/02 20:56:57 UTC
Jacksonville, North Carolina
You might consider aerotowing and landing gear to roll in on. There's no shame in landing on wheels.

michael170 - 2012/04/02 21:11:18 UTC
Northern California

Bingo, Bob hit that nail pretty square.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4334
OUCH!!!

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 22:00:48 UTC
Newnan, Georgia

Lockout Mountain Flight Park

So, on Saturday, I had my first (and hopefully last crash).

It was on my last flight, (due to my decision after the crash) and I was going to start flaring the new Falcon 145 in an effort to get off that damn hill! Lauren (not Tjaden) went down to the landing area and had told me to wait until I got a wind cycle that I liked before launching. There were a few other students and Randy up there with me.

So, I'm waiting as the wind was crossing and was starting to get real switchy. Finally it calmed down enough that I thought I could get a good launch/flight/flare. I pick up the glider...

Assume that I'm hooked in...

...yell "clear" and go.

On launch I got a little cross wind right as my feet had started to leave the ground, which I corrected. The flight was a bitch because I kept getting knocked to the left and I was having to make corrections, and even then couldn't stay on target.

Since I was already off target and was having trouble finding it again, I decided the best thing I could do was to just try and keep my wings as level as possible and just wheel it in.

Nope, can't do that. Gotta get a good flare. Wouldn't be hang gliding without it.

Now, Lauren was waiting for me to get ready to land as she was going to yell "flare" if it looked as though it would be possible.

Primary function of a hang gliding instructor. (And whenever something seems POSSIBLE on a hang glider - GO FOR IT!!! By all means!)

So after coming out to trim and moving my hands in position to flare...

And most efficiently snap your arms in half...

...she yells, as my wings are level at this time. So, I start to do it. I got my hands up but hadn't completely locked my elbows, when I zoomed!

When I realized how high I was (it looked like I went up about ten feet) I freaked out and couldn't finish the flare. I held what I had and floated down a couple of feet, when a big gust blew me even father to the left, which then caused the wind to be at my back.

As the glider starts its process of recovering from the stall...

The whipstall you'd been instructed to induce for every landing...

...it felt like the wind was contributing and pushing it on over.

Yeah, Mother Nature can be a real bitch sometimes - especially when she notices you doing something stupid.

I nosed into the ground very hard. My helmet was knocked off of my head as I was going down.

How very odd. I didn't think Lookout helmets were supposed to fall off your head until the moment of impact.

As soon as I saw that I was going to crash, I took my hands off the downtubes and allowed myself to swing through the control frame, as I was in a pretty bad situation.

You were in a pretty bad situation the moment you signed up for lessons with Lookout.

Luckily, I was hanging pretty high and I didn't take any of the impact. I crimped the basetube pretty bad though.

Well, the important thing was that you'd have been OK if you were landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place or a field filled with seven foot high corn. And, hell, Matt can sell you another basetube tomorrow morning. He keeps lotsa control frame tubing in stock for just such situations.

As I was trying to get myself up, I saw Randy running full speed down the hill towards me and Lauren was running from her position in the landing area. Randy got to me first and threw his arms around me from behind me. I was having trouble trying to get on my feet, as the nose of the glider was buried in the ground and since I was hanging so high I couldn't get my feet to completely touch the ground. So I just swung a little as he had his arms around me. Finally, I yell at him to just unhook me! Either he or Lauren manage to get the glider up and I walk away without a bruise!

I would have normally tested before attempting the flare, but I had confirmed with Lauren that when she yelled flare I should just do it.

Yeah. Lauren's always gonna be in a much better position to judge what's going on with your glider than you are so she's the one that should be making your decisions for you.

Apparently they yell a little early, expecting the pilot to be delayed a little in his reactions.

Right. The PILOT should be learning to flare the glider right after he hears somebody yell "FLARE!"
And that's what you're paying these people to do for you anyway, right? What would be the point in even having an instructor other than to have somebody yell "FLARE" at just the right moment? You might not flare soon enough and end up rolling in on your wheels. And how are you ever gonna get signed off on a rating doing that?

Well, I didn't delay... I was right on it.

Yep. The perfect hang gliding student.

I'm still not sure why I zoomed so much though...

Maybe 'cause that's the direction you aimed the glider?

I had let out to trim... I actually make sure by having a loose grip before moving my hands up.

What if you had maintained a death grip on the basetube and just flown the glider until it stopped flying?

I think some of it was me, but I wonder if some of it didn't have something to do with the wind conditions.

It's mostly just something you can expect to happen every once in a while if you execute a totally insane landing procedure every time you come down.

Anyway, it scared the crap out of me... and Randy too.

Yeah, I was always scared shitless trying to stop a glider that way. Pretty much everybody is.

Thankfully I had the presence of mind to not hold on the downtubes or I might have two broken arms, or dislocated shoulders at least.

And hopefully you'll develop the presence of mind to start seriously questioning this culture's whole idiot approach to landing.

I'm sure Randy will chime in here with what he saw as well.

Ask Randy if there was any need whatsoever for you to do a standup landing in those circumstances and how long he thinks it will be before you're in circumstances that will make a standup landing advantageous.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4334
OUCH!!!

Curt Otto - 2007/11/12 22:03:46 UTC
Saint Croix

Wow! Glad you are okay!

xerxes - 2007/11/12 22:04:06 UTC
Atlanta

Yikes, I'm glad you're OK!

Zooms like that are scary, just hold it out as far as you can and you'll come down hard but not whackey.
-
H2 AT FL CL FSL
Mark IV

How 'bout if she just holds it in a little bit, eases it out when she's skimming, waits for the glider to stop flying, and comes down REALLY SOFT?

Jack Axaopoulos - 2007/11/12 22:08:50 UTC

Glad you are OK

This is exactly why I use a crescendo flare. I focus very carefully on that initial slow push, and if the glider reacts by climbing at all a pause. This is how I avoid zoom ups which can be far far more drastic on a wing with high energy retention like a topless. If I sense no glider climb then I accelerate into a nice full flare.

A quick hard flare requires that you perfectly know how much energy your wing has left in it, and that is something I dont expect a beginner to know with consistency.

Yeah, everybody's glad she's OK. Now let's all start figuring out the best way to get this beginner consistently and safely landing on her feet so if she gets sucked up out of the training hill area by a dust devil and has to come down in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place she'll be able to handle the situation like a pro - or better.

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 22:18:31 UTC

Thanks...

Yeah... it scared me soooo bad that on Sunday all I could do on the hill was cry, because the thought of running down the hill even scared me. I ended up launching on Sunday, and on the first one, everyone said it looked like I tripped, the shitty helmet went forward some and into my line of sight, and the wheels came down on the ground... so the wheels are rolling down the hill. I manage to stay upright enough to keep my nose angle by pushing the glider out a little ahead of me... and I kept running! I'm sure it was a sight to see... but I ended up getting in the air.

After that one, I went up top for my next one, had my hang check, etc.

Define et cetera...

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

...and tell us how long it takes.

I stood there looking ahead and could feel tears rolling down my face. I looked at Lauren and then a friend of mine, Jaime, came over and told me that I looked too nervous and not to launch feeling that way.

Sounds like this hang gliding thing has been a real great experience for you so far.

I agreed, of course, and unhooked and decided to call it a day.

Oh good. You were still hooked in at that point.

I was not in the mental state to be out there. I was too scared.

Randy and I had some words, and he left for the breakdown area. Lauren wanted me to stay, and to try and calm down enough so that I might could get my head wrapped around one more launch... with a WHEEL LANDING... just so I could get back on the horse.

What if you did NOTHING BUT wheel landings? Ya think that would work to help you stay on the horse and be less terrified standing on the top of a hill or approaching an LZ?

I finally felt a little better and took my chances with the flat slope on the small hill. I got a little air and wheeled it in. I was feeling better.

See how fast your confidence builds when you're not pressured to conclude your flight with a stupid, useless, dangerous, aerobatic maneuver?

I saw Randy coming back towards the hill and a friend of ours was out there talking to him... not sure what was said... but he just sat down in the landing area.

They were probably discussing the best way to start gearing you up again for concluding your flights with stupid, useless, dangerous, aerobatic maneuvers.

So... I had a third and final flight as the wind was starting to get switchy again and Lauren was about ready to call it for the day. I launched from the same place I had the day before when I crashed. I had a beautiful launch, a beautiful flight, and a WHEEL LANDING!

Keep thinking about the implications of what you just said and stop listening to total assholes like Jack.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4334
OUCH!!!

PilotGuy - 2007/11/12 22:22:18 UTC
California

I second that, sg.

Of course you do.

I am an advocate of the crescendo flare and I've explained the principle to those that will listen. By practicing the crescendo flare, you will learn to dial in to your wing's flare characteristics and will be able to do a sharper, better timed flare.

For what purpose?

Hopefully you didn't scare yourself out of flaring, MrsP.

I hope she did. I hope she also scares herself shitless out of using hang checks as confirmation that she's hooked in with no more physical trauma than she got letting Lauren teach her to foot land. (And I note that nobody's commenting on that. (Big surprise.))

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 22:18:31 UTC

I launched from the same place I had the day before when I crashed. I had a beautiful launch, a beautiful flight, and a WHEEL LANDING!

Leave her the fuck alone! The less help she gets from you assholes the better chance her common sense reserves will have of surviving this period.

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 22:28:23 UTC

Luckily, I had the opportunity to get Gordon to go out for an evening class before we left to come home. The air was SMOOTH!! It was a little overcast by then and we had no wind. Gordon put me in the simulator, just so I could get comfortable with the thought of flare attempts again.

Did he also take you for a tandem aerotow so you could get comfortable with the thought of flying with Wallaby and bent pin releases and no weak link?

This 145 just flies so much faster than the 140 I was on before... and after having so many flights on the 140, I am used to it. The 145 is great though... so much more responsive and it just penetrates the air better.

Yeah. No matter what direction you point it.

So, I ended up getting around nine flights within about an hour and a half. I had beautiful launches, beautiful flights... actually felt myself getting more used to the speed of this glider. I have to admit though... after having such a bad crash... I couldn't bring myself to do any foot landings... Every time I got close, I'd test, and a couple of times, as I tested, I screamed... I'm scared!!

Good instincts. Try not to let anybody condition you to ignore them.

But, it's okay... 'cause who the hell wouldn't be scared after that happening the day before??

About ninety percent of the testosterone poisoned douchebags on The Jack Show.

So, we're going back for the whole week next week and I'm hoping that all of the nervousness will have gone away by then.

I really hope it doesn't. Nervousness is a very useful response to dangerous situations and decisions in aviation.

If anything, I think I will be flaring too late from now on!

You can get an arm broken that way too.

I launched from the same place I had the day before when I crashed. I had a beautiful launch, a beautiful flight, and a WHEEL LANDING!

So how 'bout thinking about continuing to not flare at all?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4334
OUCH!!!

Jim Gaar - 2007/11/12 22:35:17 UTC

That's right, NO PUMPING. If you start too early STOP and HOLD. Then flare hard and parachute down. Be ready to take the load properly with your legs relaxed.
Let the keel take the weight of the wing.

Hang in there MrsP

Asshole.

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 22:41:07 UTC

Thanks Jim...

So, I'm curious... since I had started my flare... and actually did start to parachute down before getting knocked into the turn... is it possible that the wind gust accelerated the stall, and my inability to keep holding it???

1. Who cares? Your instinct was to go with a wheel landing. So why did you start the goddam flare in the first place?
2. Yeah it's possible. With gusts, rotors, thermals, and dust devils ANYTHING is possible. That's why you don't see people in sane branches of aviation stacking the deck against them by pointing the nose straight up two feet off the ground.

I'm not sure what I'm saying even makes sense...

Yeah, it makes sense.

...unless you were there and saw it...

1. Nobody had to be there and see it. Anybody who routinely foot lands and has flown more than three or four weekends has had something similar happen to him.
2. Anybody who's been in the sport more than one or two weekends knows somebody who's broken an arm or dislocated a shoulder solely because of a standup landing.
3. If something bad CAN happen it WILL happen. How many more times do we need to keep proving that Murphy knew what he was talking about?

...but what do ya think anyway guys??

Who gives a rat's ass? Most of those douchebags couldn't think with guns to their heads.

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

What do YOU think?

Jim Gaar - 2007/11/12 22:52:20 UTC

Me thinks you just had a "typical" WHACK and on you go...

Yeah. The TYPICAL crash that results when somebody does something off the scale stupid.

At low speed, attached to a large wind grabbing sail one has the tendency to do all sorts of things without control!

Yeah shithead. Especially when you've just stuck your nose straight up in a switchy, unpredictable LZ.

Really what happened sounds pretty typical and shall I say, "Lesson learned"?

SHE LEARNED IT!

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 22:18:31 UTC

I launched from the same place I had the day before when I crashed. I had a beautiful launch, a beautiful flight, and a WHEEL LANDING!

But now she's listening to you assholes telling her that this is just a normal, inevitable part of playing the game of hang gliding.

There are all sorts of ways to deal with switchy conditions but hey you are on the bunny hill and have a lot to think about.

Yeah. And a goddam idiot fucking foot landing is NEVER one of them.

Stop being so hard on yourself. It WILL come...

It had ALREADY come.

Since I was already off target and was having trouble finding it again, I decided the best thing I could do was to just try and keep my wings as level as possible and just wheel it in.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

Her thinking was already dead in line with Steve Pearson's.

Now, Lauren was waiting for me to get ready to land as she was going to yell, "flare" if it looked as though it would be possible. So, after coming out to trim and moving my hands in position to flare, she yells, as my wings are level at this time. So, I start to do it.

But then, because her idiot fucking instructor thought a standup no stepper would be POSSIBLE, her idiot fucking instructor yelled "Flare!" and Judy's brain stepped out for a snack.

Maintain speed and land that baby, wheels or what ever.

No. This is AVIATION. You don't do WHATEVER. You take the best option possible for the given set of circumstances. And in a switchy training field "WHATEVER" is NEVER the right answer.

Once you start to flare and slow down anything can happen and often does

PRE CISELY - douchebag. So stop telling her to do WHATEVER.

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 22:59:06 UTC

But, I need to get off the hill, Jim!! Seriously, I am having great launches minus the one yesterday morning (probably due to nerves) and great flights. I have got to get my requisite four foot landings.

WHY are the fucking foot landings requisite?

I had a beautiful launch, a beautiful flight, and a WHEEL LANDING!

You're launching great, flying great, and landing great. What else do you hafta do to get off the fucking training hill?

I can perfect them when I'm on the big hill and have more time to think about the landing.

Yeah, when you finish PERFECTING them please let me know just how you did it.

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

And drop Steve Pearson a line while you're at it.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4334
OUCH!!!

Tom Galvin - 2007/11/12 23:00:40 UTC UTC
Pagosa Springs, Colorado

Anyway, it scared the crap out of me... and Randy too. Thankfully I had the presence of mind to not hold on the downtubes or I might have two broken arms, or dislocated shoulders at least.

First. This is serious. Buy a helmet that fits and won't come off.

And then don't ever put yourself in a situation in which it might possibly come in handy 'cause those things tend not to make that much difference when the shit hits the fan.

Second. I have to steal Ryan's forum signature.

"A slow progression is the best way." - Dan Racanelli

And some things...

deltaman - 2012/03/29 08:23:52 UTC

The one point (pilot only) shouldn't be considered as a progression but is a dangerous compromise compared to two points.

...are best never "progressed" to AT ALL.

Take your time. An accident can be a blessing in disguise.

Yeah. Real helpful. Real pertinent to this incident.

It tempers our enthusiasm with better judgment.

SHE *HAD* BETTER JUDGMENT. Her judgment problem was allowing her idiot fucking instructor's shit judgment to override it.

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 23:16:31 UTC

Oh I'm not in a hurry Tom... in case you were thinking I was.

Don't worry about Tom - he's functionally illiterate.

I have just been on that hill for months, and the only thing that I am doing is now is having to constantly carry the glider up the small hill since the ATV's are broken. Something is going to have to happen... either an ATV or I'm going to have to clear and go to the big hill where they have a nice shiny new ATV.

Seriously, I am just not able to get enough flights on the small hill without the ATV to clear. That has been my biggest problem lately. I just don't have the strength or stamina that a two hundred pound man does, coupled with having to carry half my weight. I do good to get between three and five flights that way, and it's just not working. Randy has been trying to carry it for me once in a while, but he isn't always there to do it.

That's fuckin' ridiculous. If you can reliably turn the glider at this point there's no reason whatsoever that you shouldn't at least be doing sleds off of the ramp and rolling into that flat square mile LZ below. Hard to imagine you being worse off doing that than launching and landing in some switchy little training hill field with some some idiot telling you when to flare. You're getting gouged.

As far as the helmet... yes I am going to purchase a better helmet, because the ones they have aren't very good.

Crappy helmets and shit instructors. Bad combination.

Barring that, I found a solution for the one I have been using of theirs, is to wear a toboggan under it, so that it takes up more space.

Those motherfuckers should be shot for letting you go up with the one you were using. Worse than no helmet at all.

Also, I don't think it had anything to do with my judgement, as much as conditions...

Dude - it wasn't the conditions that almost did you in.

Of course one could argue that I shouldn't trust my instructor's judgement...

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

Do ya think?

...but that could also put me in a pickle.

You're not the one that needs to be in a pickle. Lauren's not even the one that needs to be in a pickle. The people that should be in pickles are Matt, Wills Wing, and USHGA.

I will admit that I was in hot water when I flared when told to, and if I had been in the situation on my own, probably wouldn't have.

No sane person would have.

But, I still think that the conditions were very bad as well...

Hang gliding is ALL ABOUT flying in very bad conditions. You're gonna go out of your mind with boredom doing sleds and ridge runs in very good conditions.
And you had/have the skills and judgment to deal with them. And you're not ever gonna get much better than you were then 'cause there's not much more to learn for shit like that. You've just gotta learn to trust your own judgment.

...right at the time I started my flare.

SO DON'T *EVER* START A FLARE UNLESS THE CONDITIONS ARE BRAIN DEAD EASY OR YOU HAVE A REAL GOOD REASON TO.

I wish some of those that were there would also comment... so that I will know what they saw...

No value whatsoever.

Christian Thoreson - 2004/10

Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...

This ain't rocket science, Judy.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4334
OUCH!!!

Carm Moreno - 2007/11/12 23:33:37 UTC
Bay Area

Glad you are okay.

Thanks for sharing. It always help to talk about it and think about what happen then move on.

And then just keep doing the same stupid shit over and over and keep expecting better results.

After which think about your good landings. Visualize the good...

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 22:18:31 UTC

I launched from the same place I had the day before when I crashed. I had a beautiful launch, a beautiful flight, and a WHEEL LANDING!

...rather than the bad.

Now, Lauren was waiting for me to get ready to land as she was going to yell "flare" if it looked as though it would be possible. So, after coming out to trim and moving my hands in position to flare, she yells, as my wings are level at this time. So, I start to do it. I got my hands up but hadn't completely locked my elbows, when I zoomed!

Ya see the pattern there, Carm?

But personally it sounds like some tricky landing conditions. It may had been better to run out the landing.

Once you flare you can not be an indian giver you have to hold it. You did the right thing it just sounds like conditions were not in your favor.

Carm... You are an absolute total MORON.

I had two short flights this weekend. One on the falcon and one on the litesport. I had a nice no step landing on my falcon. Then the next day on the litesport I slightly ballooned up but held the flare then drop the basetube.

She doesn't need to be listening to you. You need to be listening to her.

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 23:43:33 UTC

Thanks Carm... yeah, I think it was me along with the conditions, personally...

Nah, that was pretty much all Matt and Lauren.

...but that's why I was interested to hear what the others that were there thought... as I was obviously way too upset to hear what they were saying at the time.

1. You shoulda probably stopped listening to what anybody who was there thought right before Lauren yelled "Flare!"
2. What the hell is it you're expecting to learn? You were gonna land on your wheels, you woulda been fine landing on your wheels, things went to hell fast the moment after Lauren yelled "Flare!" and you did.

Glad it's over...

Yeah, that's the way you're supposed to feel about all your experiences in hang gliding.

Hopefully now that I've had the evening class and regained my confidence...

Yeah Judy...

I have to admit though, after having such a bad crash I couldn't bring myself to do any foot landings. Every time I got close, I'd test, and a couple of times as I tested, I screamed... I'm scared!!

Sure glad you regained your confidence.

I'll be okay next week. BTW... The flights I had at the evening class were the best ever!

You mean the ones in which you did nothing but wheel landings?

Oh, after the class... Gordon mentioned having a women in HGing fly-in next year, and also a families in HGing fly-in. Not sure if it will come about but, if it does it would be great to see you there!

Avoid her like the plague. Stupidity is a highly contagious disease in this sport. Talk to Jayne DePanfilis if she shows up.