The main reason why I quit - never felt really secure regarding landing without injury.
And that was after FIVE YEARS of flying.
1. I was pretty much ALWAYS absolutely terrified of landing my glider at inland thermal sites, not so much of getting hurt 'cause I got pretty good a crashing during the dune period at the beginning of my career, but of bending or breaking a downtube, planting the nose, or just dropping the bar and having to finish a beautiful rewarding flight and experience with a little black mark in the final column.
2. If you read all the perpetual idiot discussions on landing...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...it's blindingly obvious that EVERYBODY'S terrified of landing.
Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
He knows he's operating on the ragged edge of his control authority in a lot of situations and will be happy just to stop things in a reasonably dignified manner.
And, skimming the ground at two feet for as long as possible would be a total blast.
Don Boardman - 1982/02
The landings, by the way, are the greatest. You come in just like a seaplane and touch down gently skimming on the water's surface.
That's what I did on my very first flight - although it was on an Eaglet 191 so it wasn't a very long skim. An extra second and a half maybe.
And, I'm a screw ball, I like going against the grain.
No. You're normal. This is how the rest of fixed wing aviation lands. It's hang gliding itself that's screwball and going against the grain. And it's paying an ENORMOUS price for doing so.
And, if folk see me doing it and decide to give it a try, that's fine too.
Get two people to follow suit and you can probably prevent an arm from being broken. And you'll definitely save a lot of downtubes.
And, I can't comment on wheel landings if I haven't done any.
You most assuredly CAN. Ten year old kid common sense stuff. Watch two videos and you're as much of an expert as you need to and will ever be.
Hang glider soaring time can get pretty expensive and time consuming. Many very useful skills can be learned flying R/C sailplanes, including X/C, landing out, turbulence, thermal detection and mapping, etc., all at a fraction of the cost. A lot of important skills can be developed flying Falcons at a fraction of the cost of comp wings. It's also essential to become confident at safely landing anywhere.
Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.
When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.
This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.
None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on.
Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
At exactly what point in the past month was it that you suddenly became confident about safely landing anywhere?
I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.
The closer you come to wheel landings the more confident you can be about safely landing anywhere.
So let's say you somehow figure out a way to make towing perfectly safe. What are you going to do about landings. People land badly all the time. Wheels you say? Brilliant! Now, tell me what you do when your chosen LZ is a narrow dry river bed with large rocks strewn all over the place. Better yet, you see what looks like a large green pasture so you head over there only to find out that it is in fact filled with seven foot high corn, and now there is no usable LZ within glide. Wheels probably won't help you in either case.
...anywhere at which you can sanely expect a safe outcome anyway.
Michael Abdullah - 2011/07/01 16:55:06 UTC
Naugatuck
Three came in downwind and slightly cross but it was hard to tell as it wasn't too strong in the LZ and one of the wind socks always seems to be wrong in light winds. I always ignore this wind sock unless it is honking. Weak flare at the end but landing on my feet with some steps works better than a belly landing.
Steven Leiler - 2011/04/25 00:35:49 UTC
Central Connecticut
I feel your pain as I type with my left hand
two weeks ago sat broke right humerus from a weak ass flair
hope to post story, video and x-rays sometime this week
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Yep. She's definitely mastered that skill. I'm one hundred percent confident that she'll never do to an arm or shoulder kinda thing that Paul, Lauren, Linda, Sparky, Davis did.
And it's hard to imagine that she'd ever be in a situation in which it would be advantageous for her hands to be on the basetube.
Bob Kuczewski - 2012/01/17 19:31:28 UTC
I have to agree with miguel here. I believe pitch authority is greater on the base tube, but roll authority is much quicker and more authoritative when upright. No doubt about it.
EVERYBODY knows roll authority is much quicker and more authoritative when upright. No doubt about it.
And she's undoubtedly been trained to do a hang check sometime before every flight - so there'd be absolutely no point in ever doing a hook-in check. Bill and Kunio obviously just didn't take their hang check training seriously enough.
Twenty-seven flights, just under half of them ending with the glider rolling on the wheels - including the first and last.
Flights in which the student demonstrates a method of establishing that she is hooked in just prior to launch:
- zero
Flights in which the student rotates to prone:
- zero
Flights in which the basetube is touched with either hand:
- zero
Flights in which the student initiates anything resembling a turn:
- zero
Landings which require her to stop on her feet:
- zero
Flights in which her control authority is seriously compromised for a totally unnecessary standup landing:
- twenty-seven
is how competent pilots fly and land and this is EXACTLY how we should be teaching students to fly and land from Day 1.
But we're teaching Little Ashley to do pretty much the precise opposite. And it will probably take her many years to unlearn all that bullshit and start doing things right - IF she doesn't get the shit kicked out of her and leave the sport first, hopefully with a pulse.
I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land but for me the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare. The flare window is really long on a T2, maybe two seconds or fifty feet, but I can't initiate pitch unless the wings are level and the glider isn't yawed. Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
My other comment is that I like to make a long low final. I can flare more aggressively from close to the ground, I don't have to worry about mushing through a gradient and I'm only arresting forward motion.
I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land but for me the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare.
Flying upright her control authority SUCKS.
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height...
Steve can't control HIS glider if he needs to with his hands at shoulder or ear height but it's OK for Little Ashley and that's EXACTLY where we have her put them.
Imagine the confusion that would reign if she was advised to land it on the wheels at this stage.
came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.
bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.
turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming.
She might come away with the impression that stopping the fucking glider on her fucking feet might not be the appropriate priority in every single landing of her flying career.
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
She might start thinking in terms of flexibility of response to different or changing situations.
Jayne DePanfilis - 2004/11
Executive Director Speaks Out
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window
Pilots who watched me land on the wheels time and time again should have been able to see that this was a skill and not just the "sissy" way out. After all, I had learned to land on my feet, and on a rare occasion or two I demonstrated this skill as well.
But on these occasions I walked off the field with this thought: I have more control over the glider when I remain prone during the approach and landing than I do attempting to fly from the downtubes in an upright position.
Then she might start thinking that her instructors were major shitheads.
Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC
I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).
Then she might start thinking that she can't trust anyone in this sport but herself. And that could lead to lots more independent and critical thinking. And do you have any IDEA how much damage something like THAT could do to the sport we all know and love?
Let's keep watching Little Ashley's progress.
Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
I have a thousand bucks that says she's gonna be in a situation coming into the Happy Acres putting green which requires every bit of control authority that she can manage because either it's breaking off or she has to maneuver late on approach and will be better off prone with her hands on the basetube and bellying in a long time before she'll need to nail a no-stepper in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place or the waist high grass at Yosemite.
So does Jonny Durand (but he had taken them off, now).
I spoke with Mike after he outflew everyone (Mike has the longest flex wing flight at 437 miles) here to the Florida Ridge. He talked about flying with wheels (I'm flying with wheels). He stated that if things got dicey on landing he stayed on the basetube and landed on his wheels.
Allen Sparks - 2009/12/02 02:37:25 UTC
Evergreen, Colorado
Checklists are a critical part of managing risk. Last Friday we stopped the checklist to adjust the keel angle. When I started over, I failed to go though each checklist item verbally ... and missed a very important item (the last one before launch).
Alan Wengren - 2009/12/02 02:47:20 UTC
Tallahassee
forgot to zip up your pod. As far as aerotow, I have not got my rating yet.
Nate Wreyford - 2009/12/02 02:48:56 UTC
Austin
I have done that but luckily realized and grabbed them while screaming down the runway - so I could leave when I wanted to...
Glad to see you didn't scratch the glider and even got to stay on the right side of the grass another day
Scott C. Wise - 2009/12/02 03:04:56 UTC
Central New York
I have no idea what you missed. I've never aerotowed with a cart - or even in the last twenty years. It looks like you dropped out of the cart prematurely, though.
And I don't think it was that you forgot to zip up your pod.
Allen Sparks - 2009/12/02 03:07:46 UTC
Good thing my pod wasn't zipped.
fakeDecoy - 2009/12/02 03:23:12 UTC
Fort Funston
I've never aerotowed, but you got pulled off that cart like you weren't holding onto it.
Allen Sparks - 2009/12/02 03:25:35 UTC
Yes, I wasn't holding on to the cart.
This cart has two handles (rubber hose - visible in the video) which I did not grasp.
Diev Hart - 2009/12/02 06:45:13 UTC
Good job in getting the gear out and down...
Alan Wengren - 2009/12/02 14:33:24 UTC
Hmmm, I've always watched people zipping up their harnesses while on the sled before taking off or while waiting for the tug. But now that you think about it, it makes more sense to leave it open in case of situations like this.
Keith Skiles - 2009/12/02 14:51:31 UTC
Soddy Daisy, Tennessee
The only time you would want to zip up your pod would be if you were flying a glider with permanent landing gear (such as LMFP student AT gliders) that you aren't going to be foot landing anyway. If you zip up your pod and fly without wheels, you're in for some serious potential hurt if something goes wrong. In the video you see his wheels briefly touch the ground, if he didn't have them, and was just a shade lower, there would be a good chance of a nose in when a corner of the basetube got a hold of the ground.
Brent Benoist (bsquare) - 2009/12/02 15:08:36 UTC
Memphis
I never - ever zip my harness. Of course it is a cocoon.
John Stokes - 2009/12/02 15:21:29 UTC
Trenton, Georgia
Hey,
I have seen a number of people at Lookout zip up their pods before aerotowing and I have mentioned the fact to a few people who did this. The responses were, "It's one less thing I have to worry about, I don't want my pod lines to get hung on the cart, etc." The video illustrates exactly why one should not zip up before aerotowing.
Socrates Zayas - 2009/12/02 15:50:38 UTC
Fort Lauderdale
Good save!
phantomflier - 2009/12/02 16:05:58 UTC
I used to zip up before launching out of the cart. I, too, thought that there was less chance something would get hung up, and somehow felt safer. Then I had a weak link break at the Florida Ridge. Busted RIGHT out of the cart, and I came down on my belly and wheels. Not a big deal, glider and human just fine. BUT, I did change my thinking on this. Keep those barn doors open folks. Well maybe closed, but unzipped for sure.
Fenser-13 - 2010/02/26 00:46:17 UTC
Florida
wow. not much you can do there, lucky your harness was unzipped.
Jason Boehm - 2010/02/26 01:01:34 UTC
Boulder
I would have lost a finger on my sensor in that scenaro...if i ever aerotow...I'll use wheels
Rolla Manning - 2010/02/26 03:00:51 UTC
Las Vegas
WOW Spark Great save (nice reflexes for an OLD GUY)
Bill Bennett - 2010/03/15 16:36:42 UTC
Arizona
Great job keeping cool under pressure! I'm recently Aerotow rated and heard stories about pilots coming off the cart then bouncing off their wheels and then climbing out. The best rule is if at all you don't feel comfortable, get off the line. The tug pilot will just turn around and start over again. Nice job getting off the line and continuing to pilot the glider.
The only time you would want to zip up your pod would be if you were flying a glider with permanent landing gear (such as LMFP student AT gliders) that you aren't going to be foot landing anyway.
Bullshit. That keeps your harness from getting grass stained (as would skid plates) - nothing more.
If you zip up your pod and fly without wheels, you're in for some serious potential hurt if something goes wrong.
1. You're in for some serious potential hurt pretty much any time you take a glider off the ground.
2. If you fly without wheels in most environments - particularly aerotow - you're BEGGING for some serious potential hurt.
3. If something goes wrong on a dolly launch it won't make much difference whether or not your pod is unzipped.
4. What is likely to make an ENORMOUS difference is whether or not you have wheels.
5. Two years and five days from this one Sparky's gonna demonstrate some of the potential hurt you can be in for if you fly without wheels and how irrelevant the issue of pod zipper status usually is when you're trying to put a glider down.
In the video you see his wheels briefly touch the ground, if he didn't have them, and was just a shade lower, there would be a good chance of a nose in when a corner of the basetube got a hold of the ground.
And please tell me how the issue of pod zipper status would be of the SLIGHTEST relevance in that scenario.
John Stokes - 2009/12/02 15:21:29 UTC
I have seen a number of people at Lookout zip up their pods before aerotowing and I have mentioned the fact to a few people who did this. The responses were, "It's one less thing I have to worry about, I don't want my pod lines to get hung on the cart, etc." The video illustrates exactly why one should not zip up before aerotowing.
No it doesn't, John.
John Stokes - 1999/03
On a recent trip to Arizona I had the pleasure of meeting and flying with Rob Richardson and Corey Burk of the Arizona Hang Gliding Center in Dewey. My student, Dale Kernahan, was with me and I wanted her to get a tandem flight while we were there. We caught Rob and Corey on a day when the shop was normally closed, but they went out of their way to accommodate us. It turned out to be one of those days that is unique to hang gliding, and not only did Dale get her tandem flight, I took one too.
I recommend the Arizona Hang Gliding Center to any pilot visiting the area and wish to thank Rob and Corey for the fun time we had.
1. About a week before this magazine hits the mailboxes Rob's passenger is gonna be knocked unconscious and he's gonna be killed because Corey's gonna make a good decision in the interest of their safety when they're coming off the runway with a snagged dolly.
2. It wasn't the dolly that killed him but if he hadn't snagged it that there wouldn't have been an issue.
3. And if you've got to make a choice between snagging a dolly and bellying in with a zipped up pod then take the belly-in.
4. Not that you hafta make that choice but - yes - it is one less thing available for fucking up.
5. The video illustrates:
- why you should:
-- have your shit together before you give the Dragonfly the green;
-- really have wheels for a dolly launch if you don't have your shit together;
- that the only people who fly with standard aerotow weak links are fucking morons;
- how:
-- useless, stupid, and dangerous standup landings are in an aerotow environment: and
-- totally unnecessary it is to launch with an unzipped pod.
phantomflier - 2009/12/02 16:05:58 UTC
I used to zip up before launching out of the cart. I, too, thought that there was less chance something would get hung up, and somehow felt safer. Then I had a weak link break at the Florida Ridge. Busted RIGHT out of the cart, and I came down on my belly and wheels.
Whoa! A perfectly good Florida Ridge weak link busting RIGHT OUT OF THE CART! Who'da thunk!
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.
Keep those barn doors open folks. Well maybe closed, but unzipped for sure.
Right. Not the piece of shit fishing line that created the emergency but your ability to make the most dangerous response possible to the emergency. Good thinking.
Jason Boehm - 2009/12/02 16:20:36 UTC
Boulder
I would have lost a finger on my sensor in that scenaro...if i ever aerotow...I'll use wheels
But you're gonna be totally OK without them otherwise.
You better not fuck up - EVER. 'Cause if/when you do, I'm gonna make sure that comment comes back to haunt you.
Bill Bennett - 2010/03/15 16:36:42 UTC
Arizona
Great job keeping cool under pressure!
Awesome job dude! You can screw the pooch on the launch, screw the pooch on the idiot fucking weak link, and waste everybody's time on the operation - but if you can swing your feet under you quick enough to keep the nose from planting you're everybody's ideal model of a REAL HANG GLIDER PILOT!
I'm recently Aerotow rated...
So, naturally a weak link blowing two seconds off the cart with the glider straight and level seems perfectly normal to you.
...and heard stories about pilots coming off the cart then bouncing off their wheels and then climbing out.
And what was it that prevented Sparky from doing exactly that in this situation?
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
The best rule is if at all you don't feel comfortable, get off the line.
Yeah. Whenever you're in any doubt about anything, IMMEDIATELY kill your thrust...
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
...and get ready to start dealing with the runway.
The tug pilot will just turn around and start over again.
And, of course, there's no additional cost to the operation for setting up another tow, there's no additional danger to the tug driver associated with an additional launch and landing, and nobody in line will mind watching the soaring window evaporate.
Nice job getting off the line and continuing to pilot the glider.
Yeah Sparky, nice job doing nothing while the standard aerotow weak link disintegrated and dumped you back on the runway!
And nice job not correcting the delusions from which this idiot is suffering which lead him to believe that you're a competent pilot and a great role model.
P.S. Lemme tell ya one more thing Sparky...
When I finally recovered from the brainwashing all of your douchebag friends at Ridgely gave me, figured out what a weak link was, and DIDN'T use ones that blew two seconds off the cart or anywhere else on the ride up, nobody ever told me what great pilot I was or thanked me for not clogging up the launch line.
Yep. She's definitely mastered that skill. I'm one hundred percent confident that she'll never do to an arm or shoulder the kind of thing that Paul, Lauren, Linda, Sparky, or Davis did.
And it's hard to imagine that she'd ever be in a situation in which it would be advantageous for her hands to be on the basetube.
Lighten up, please, it is only her third lesson.
I am in awe of your amazing powers to predict the future. How about giving me the winning numbers for the next California Lotto?
Bob Kuczewski - 2012/01/17 19:31:28 UTC
I have to agree with miguel here. I believe pitch authority is greater on the base tube, but roll authority is much quicker and more authoritative when upright. No doubt about it.
Tad Eareckson wrote:EVERYBODY knows roll authority is much quicker and more authoritative when upright. No doubt about it.
Glory Hallestoopid, Tad has seen the light.
Tad Eareckson wrote:And she's undoubtedly been trained to do a hang check sometime before every flight - so there'd be absolutely no point in ever doing a hook-in check. Bill and Kunio obviously just didn't take their hang check training seriously enough.
Ole Tad, eye in the sky, is most certain that she has not done a hang check.
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
It is a simple matter of letting go of one of the downtubes, preventing a spiral fracture, no?
Tad Eareckson wrote:She's being suited up in dork harness and taught to fly her entire flight like a dork so she can do a stupid dork landing at the end of it.
Let me 'fix this for you' -->FIFY
She, on her third day of training, is suited up in a training harness. She is launching, flying her entire 'bunny hop' flight, then landing on her feet.
Reads much better, and is a more accurate depiction of the flight than your extreme spinmeister schpiel.
is how competent pilots fly and land and this is EXACTLY how we should be teaching students to fly and land from Day 1.
FIFY
This is how fortunate pilots fly, always landing at the Placid Pastures lz, where the wind is always mellow, laminar and in your face.
Now let us take a look at an expert pilot back in the real world:
Take your pick http://www.youtube.com/user/NMERider
you're welcome.
Tad Eareckson wrote:But we're teaching Little Ashley to do pretty much the precise opposite. And it will probably take her many years to unlearn all that bullshit and start doing things right - IF she doesn't get the shit kicked out of her and leave the sport first, hopefully with a pulse.
FIFY again
But we are equipping Ashley with a hang gliding skillset that will be of benefit to her in the future. At the same time she is being given guidance to help her make the correct decisions so she will not injure herself or others while hang gliding.
I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land but for me the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare. The flare window is really long on a T2, maybe two seconds or fifty feet, but I can't initiate pitch unless the wings are level and the glider isn't yawed. Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
My other comment is that I like to make a long low final. I can flare more aggressively from close to the ground, I don't have to worry about mushing through a gradient and I'm only arresting forward motion.
I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land but for me the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare.
Flying upright her control authority SUCKS.[/quote]
Duh!!!! Neither can I. I move my hands lower on the downtube to affect more control.
He is upright, uptight and scared but seems to have no problems controlling the glider in pitch or roll. Notice his hands are below his shoulders. Notice that he moves his hands upwards near his ears to flare. Notice that his landing is controlled and successful
came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.
bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.
turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming.
Tad Eareckson wrote:She might come away with the impression that stopping the fucking glider on her fucking feet might not be the appropriate priority in every single landing of her flying career.
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Who is to say he would not have crashed if prone?
Jayne DePanfilis - 2004/11
Executive Director Speaks Out
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window
Pilots who watched me land on the wheels time and time again should have been able to see that this was a skill and not just the "sissy" way out. After all, I had learned to land on my feet, and on a rare occasion or two I demonstrated this skill as well.
But on these occasions I walked off the field with this thought: I have more control over the glider when I remain prone during the approach and landing than I do attempting to fly from the downtubes in an upright position.
Tad Eareckson wrote:Then she might start thinking that her instructors were major shitheads.
Jane is landing at the Mellow Meadows lz. Nothing wrong with a prone landing there.
Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC
I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but...
True dat!
Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Tad Eareckson wrote:I have a thousand bucks that says she's gonna be in a situation coming into the Happy Acres putting green which requires every bit of control authority that she can manage because either it's breaking off or she has to maneuver late on approach and will be better off prone with her hands on the basetube and bellying in a long time before she'll need to nail a no-stepper in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place or the waist high grass at Yosemite.
Your experts all seem to be landing straight into a laminar breeze. Out here, we land into a turbulent cross wind. Long, low finals invite being turned into the trees. A diving base turn and going upright on a short final is the safest way to land.
Here is another prone vs upright data point for you. There were two unplanned landings on the north rocks at McClure. The first pilot was upright. He hit at about 60 mph, destroyed the glider and walked away. The other pilot hit at about 25 mph prone. The glider had little damage. He died on the scene.
1. I'm trying to lighten up on her. I'm trying to make her flying easier, more effective, more fun, and safer - now and for the long term.
2. I'm not going after her. I'm going after her idiot instructors and their idiot assumptions and idiot conventions.
3. Virtually everything in her lessons up to and including the third has been geared to a stupid, dangerous, standup landing that she'll probably never be in a situation to need.
4. This has been done at the expense of teaching her how to fly the fuckin' glider.
5. If she's gonna continue in hang gliding beyond the bunny hill she WILL NEED to be able to fly prone and on the basetube, stuff the bar, whip the glider into hard coordinated turns, and belly in.
6. She will NEVER "NEED" to land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place or a field filled with seven foot high corn unless she's done something incredibly stupid first.
7. And we want to teach her not to do incredibly stupid things in the air because she won't last very long if she makes a habit of it.
8. Lest there be any misunderstanding... I'm not mocking her accomplishments at landing the glider on her feet. I'm saying that anybody who tells her that it's a skill she can perfect or master is a moron or liar and if she believes him she's setting herself up to get badly hurt EXACTLY the way Lauren did.
I am in awe of your amazing powers to predict the future. How about giving me the winning numbers for the next California Lotto?
I'm no better at predicting completely random events than anyone else is. But I'm totally awesome at making predictions based upon principles of Newtonian physics. For example:
- If you come into a primary LZ with your hands on the downtubes you're about twenty times more likely to break an arm than someone coming in with his hands on the basetube.
- If you fly with a standard aerotow weak link you're about a thousand times more likely to crash on launch than you would be with no weak link at all.
Ole Tad, eye in the sky, is most certain that she has not done a hang check.
I'm almost positive that she HAS done a hang check.
What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.
And that's the single most deadly procedure these assholes are gonna be able to teach her. If my goal were to kill somebody in this sport and make it look like an accident...
...the massive internal damage which results from people doing hang checks at the back of the ramp.
She, on her third day of training, is suited up in a training harness.
1. What's it training her to do?
2. Why can't she be suited up in a stirrup harness like the one I used for just about all of my dune flying?
She is launching, flying her entire 'bunny hop' flight, then landing on her feet.
Exactly.
Reads much better, and is a more accurate depiction of the flight than your extreme spinmeister schpiel.
Is this how we want to see her flying a year from now?
When I was a Kitty Hawk instructor thirty years ago we didn't teach students to fly like dorks. We taught them to fly like we did - Day 1, Flight 1, and on. And we had WAY better results than this bullshit produces.
This is how fortunate pilots fly, always landing at the Placid Pastures lz, where the wind is always mellow, laminar and in your face.
I spoke with Mike after he outflew everyone (Mike has the longest flex wing flight at 437 miles) here to the Florida Ridge. He talked about flying with wheels (I'm flying with wheels). HE STATED THAT IF THINGS GOT DICEY ON LANDING HE STAYED ON THE BASETUBE AND LANDED ON HIS WHEELS.
I don't know what it's gonna take to get some of this stuff to start sinking in.
I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.
is fuckin' golden.
I can't begin to express my gratitude to you for linking to Jonathan.
you're welcome.
But we are equipping Ashley with a hang gliding skillset that will be of benefit to her in the future. At the same time she is being given guidance to help her make the correct decisions so she will not injure herself or others while hang gliding.
Just as long as she's as fully confident that she's connected to her glider at launch as Bill and Kunio, is as comfortable and proficient flying on the basetube as John Seward, knows how to pull on maneuvering speed as well as Linda Salamone and Bill Vogel, keeps up her final approach speed as well as Gerry Smith and Mike Onorato, maintains control when transitioning to the downtubes as well as John Simon and Tony Ameo, can handle gusts when flaring as well as Judy, and can wrestle a glider level while flaring as well as Lauren - then I'm fully confident that she'll be JUST FINE.
But seriously folks...
That fucking landing "skill" with which she's being programmed is at least a couple hundred times more likely to put her in a hospital than it is to keep her out of one.
Duh!!!! Neither can I. I move my hands lower on the downtube to affect more control.
So then...
Bob Kuczewski - 2012/01/17 19:31:28 UTC
I have to agree with miguel here. I believe pitch authority is greater on the base tube, but roll authority is much quicker and more authoritative when upright. No doubt about it.
I put you down as being in disagreement with THAT lunatic statement?
He is upright, uptight and scared...
Bloody right he is.
1. EVERYBODY with half an ounce of brains or more...
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...is scared shitless being upright within striking distance of anything solid 'cause he knows he's got shit control authority on a plane which - compared with all other fixed wing aircraft - has shit control authority to begin with. I'm scared shitless just watching him.
2. He's been through a shit program run by one of the most unbelievably scummy motherfuckers you ever wanna meet and hasn't been taught a goddam useful thing - like, fer example, TURNING - about piloting an aircraft.
3. Matt wants him scared as much as possible so he can extend the "training" period as long as possible and fuck him over for as many bucks as possible.
4. He's doing a first high flight and approach to a field that even one of Lockout's hot shot tandem instructors couldn't hit FLYING ON THE BASETUBE without killing his student.
...but seems to have no problems controlling the glider in pitch or roll.
Yeah, it's amazing how few problems you can have with Hang 1.5 skills in smooth sled air with a flat field half the size of Nebraska straight below you.
Notice his hands are below his shoulders.
They're not supposed to be on the fucking downtubes below his shoulders. There supposed to be on the fucking basetube where Dave Seib and Steve Pearson have and keep them until the last possible instant they can and still stop the glider on their feet - MAYBE.
Notice that he moves his hands upwards near his ears to flare.
Yep, if that had been a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place and no turbulence he'd have been in great shape.
Notice that his landing is controlled and successful
...on her second recorded flight on her first day of lessons. Real impressive. Training money very well spent.
Note also that - just like Little Ashley - he has no fear whatsoever of the one thing that scares me shitless every time I foot launch. I'm always scared shitless that I was too stupid to connect myself to my glider so I always verify my connection at the instant I commit to launch.
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
See anything that would comply with that regulation in the video? See anything that would comply with that regulation in ANY light air launch in a video shot on that ramp?
Jane is landing at the Mellow Meadows lz. Nothing wrong with a prone landing there.
1. Show me a video of somebody landing at a primary rated under Hang Four (there goes the long grass at Yosemite) where there IS anything wrong with a prone landing.
2. If that task gets a bit frustrating find ANYTHING anywhere.
Your experts all seem to be landing straight into a laminar breeze. Out here, we land into a turbulent cross wind.
Bullshit.
Ferchrisake READ what you just QUOTED:
Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
I spoke with Mike after he outflew everyone (Mike has the longest flex wing flight at 437 miles) here to the Florida Ridge. He talked about flying with wheels (I'm flying with wheels). He stated that if things got dicey on landing he stayed on the basetube and landed on his wheels.
They're doing the PRECISE OPPOSITE.
When they're landing straight into a laminar breeze they're stopping on their feet - which I'm totally cool with for me, you, Zack, Little Ashley, or my nephew.
When the shit hits the fan they're bailing and bellying in.
Long, low finals invite being turned into the trees.
1. When Steve says long low finals...
Steve Pearson Landing
...he means short finals almost all of which are SKIMS.
2. When you're skimming you CAN'T get turned into the TREES. The very worst thing you can get turned into are the DAISIES - or maybe a fresh cow pie.
A diving base turn...
Yes. EXACTLY like Steve does in the video.
...and going upright on a short final is the safest way to land.
If you're stupid enough to land somewhere which requires you to land on your feet - also yes. Otherwise...
Bullshit.
Here is another prone vs upright data point for you. There were two unplanned landings on the north rocks at McClure. The first pilot was upright. He hit at about 60 mph, destroyed the glider and walked away. The other pilot hit at about 25 mph prone. The glider had little damage. He died on the scene.
So what you're saying is that if you don't plan your landings your better outcome is hitting at sixty and totaling your glider and your less favorable outcome is killing yourself (but leaving the wife and kids a glider in pretty good shape).
Sounds like a pretty good argument for planning our landings and maybe adjusting our headings and glide paths once in a while to make the glider come down in a predetermined location and, perhaps, direction. Maybe I'll run that one by USHGA's Safety and Training Committee and see what they think.
P.S.
I have a thousand bucks that says she's gonna be in a situation coming into the Happy Acres putting green which requires every bit of control authority that she can manage because either it's breaking off or she has to maneuver late on approach and will be better off prone with her hands on the basetube and bellying in a long time before she'll need to nail a no-stepper in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place or the waist high grass at Yosemite.
is most certain that she has not done a hang check.
