The Birdman once landed a glider on a small rock shelf, in a forested valley, where they put bad bears from Yosemite. It took him a few days to walk out. Another few days to retrieve the glider by burro.
Still wondering why you would ask about the turning response when upright.
1. Minor roll adjustments with pilot prone on the basetube during final ending ten seconds from touchdown.
2. Right hand goes up to shoulder level on the downtube at five seconds from touchdown with pilot remaining mostly prone.
3. Left hand goes up and pilot rotates to upright one second from touchdown.
4. Hard flare, one step landing, usual squeals of surprise and delight from audience accustomed to seeing people using this technique plow in.
5. Brain dead easy upwind uphill slope with wheel friendly terrain.
The Birdman once landed a glider on a small rock shelf...
1987/05/09 - Dave Partlow - Intermediate - 25 - UP Gemini - Glacier National Park
Relatively inexperienced cross-country pilot. Launched in strong conditions and disappeared. The glider, harness and helmet subsequently were discovered (five miles from the launch in a clearing) without significant damage. Pilot obviously survived landing, but...
Wow! And to think of the percentage of my flying career I wasted landing at Ridgely Happy Acres with a big windsock in the middle of the putting green, my car parked a hundred yards away. I can't begin to describe the profound feeling of emptiness I'm experiencing right now.
Still wondering why you would ask about the turning response when upright.
1. I'm sorry, I missed the part at which I was ASKING about the turning response when upright.
2. At no point in this video do we see the glider TURN.
3. All we see are some very minor roll corrections while the pilot is - for all intents and purposes - PRONE.
Sorry Tad, but your theoretical rantings do not agree with my reality.
4. If you don't understand theoretical rantings then you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of understanding reality.
5. The relevant theory here is that these birds respond to the pilot using muscle to move his center of gravity.
6. And pivoting one's body from prone to upright AROUND one's center of gravity does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to MOVE one's center of gravity.
7. And that oughta be on the goddam Hang One written test.
8. And NOBODY should be allowed to obtain ANY rating with anything less than one hundred percent on the goddam written tests.
9. That way we could have theory based aviation instead of allowing the OPINIONS of shitheads like Tracy, Rooney, Sam, and Stuart to overwhelm and neutralize anything and everything based upon reality.
Tad Eareckson wrote:1. I'm sorry, I missed the part at which I was ASKING about the turning response when upright.
You asked about the turning response a couple posts back. Sorry, I do not have the time to format your entire posts and answer tit for tat.
Tad Eareckson wrote:6. And pivoting one's body from prone to upright AROUND one's center of gravity does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to MOVE one's center of gravity.
WTF?
I think I see the problem. You are manufacturing the physics to fit your ideas.
Let me make this perfectly clear:
When up right, I move my WHOLE BODY by pulling the downtube towards me. Yes, you read that right.
And I can put more weight further away from the midline more quickly than I can when prone.
I am hoping that a sharp fellow like yourself can visualize the physics of this move.
I'll be lazy and ask if any of your references give a physical reason for the 0.8 to 2 g range they quote as safe. If not, constructing a reasonable physical argument could be a major contribution. You clearly have the physics down well enough (as good as anyone else in the world) to do so.
...other people who understand the issues manufacture. (Brian was a high school physics teacher, by the way - before he got his doctorate in the heavy duty meteorological stuff.)
When up right, I move my WHOLE BODY by pulling the downtube towards me.
When upright - or prone - the only thing your glider knows or cares about (assuming you're not on tow) besides the air is where your center of gravity is. And all it's gotta do to find it is track down along your harness mains. And once it gets to the end of them it doesn't need to look at anything else.
Yes, you read that right.
I usually do.
And I can put more weight further away from the midline more quickly than I can when prone.
You'll get more effect for the same control motion higher up on the control frame but it comes at a cost of:
- proportionally higher effort;
- loss of a lot of upper speed range;
- having your:
-- hands in a really ideal place to get your arms broken or your shoulders ripped apart;
-- head a lot higher above the ground and thus with a lot more potential energy at one of the two most dangerous phases of the flight.
And I used to be damn good dune pilot and participated in a lot of the annual Spectacular competitions.
And the tasks often involved running pylon courses which demanded every ounce of performance and control authority that one could muster. And NOBODY EVER ONCE - not even the losers - flew those courses upright so they could get better roll response. Or thought for a millisecond (they didn't have nanoseconds back then) about doing so.
And whenever you produce a video to illustrate YOUR point all it does is beautifully illustrate MY point.
I am hoping that a sharp fellow like yourself can visualize the physics of this move.
Yeah, I can. Always have been able to. And all the best pilots - One through Five - maximize their time on the basetube down to the point at which it doesn't matter much or at all anymore.
I am starting to wonder.
Good sign. Just make sure you're wondering about the right things and tossing out the crap that doesn't hold up.
miguel wrote:When up right, I move my WHOLE BODY by pulling the downtube towards me.
Tad wrote:When upright - or prone - the only thing your glider knows or cares about (assuming you're not on tow) besides the air is where your center of gravity is. And all it's gotta do to find it is track down along your harness mains. And once it gets to the end of them it doesn't need to look at anything else.
miguel wrote:And I can put more weight further away from the midline more quickly than I can when prone.
Tad wrote:You'll get more effect for the same control motion higher up on the control frame but it comes at a cost of:
- proportionally higher effort;
This is dead wrong. Review some human anatomy and motion studies. Learn and return.
Tad wrote:- loss of a lot of upper speed range;
Tad, we are talking about landing approaches upright. Upright gives drag which is most useful for speed CONTROL.
You have no means of controlling speed or degrading glide when prone.
TAD wrote:- having your:
-- hands in a really ideal place to get your arms broken or your shoulders ripped apart;
Duuuuuuuuuuh, Whatever you hit that rips your arm off upright, will snap your neck when prone. You always have the option of hugging the downtube when upright.
Tad wrote:-- head a lot higher above the ground and thus with a lot more potential energy at one of the two most dangerous phases of the flight.
Leading with your head, into any kind of trauma situation is not a good idea.
Tad wrote:And I used to be damn good dune pilot and participated in a lot of the annual Spectacular competitions.
And the tasks often involved running pylon courses which demanded every ounce of performance and control authority that one could muster. And NOBODY EVER ONCE - not even the losers - flew those courses upright so they could get better roll response. Or thought for a millisecond (they didn't have nanoseconds back then) about doing so.
The whole upright thread has been related to landing approaches, specifically turbulent, crosswind approaches.
Tad wrote:And whenever you produce a video to illustrate YOUR point all it does is beautifully illustrate MY point.
There will be no video as I do not have a video cam and no plans to get one.
If you grip the levers halfway from the ends you can crack the nut using half the motion but it'll take twice the effort - period.
This is why control frames are tall, you're supposed to hang as low as possible to the basetube, and competition pilots (like Adam Parer) use side mounted parachute containers to allow them to hang even lower - it reduces control effort (and increases precision).
Tad, we are talking about landing approaches upright.
Yeah, we're talking about them alright - but we're sure not seeing any good pilots doing them in any of the videos you're referencing.
Upright gives drag which is most useful for speed CONTROL.
Bullshit.
- The CONTROL bar is most useful for speed CONTROL.
- Increasing the parasitic drag by going upright doesn't do shit for speed control. All it does is degrade your glide path.
- Going upright robs you of the upper speed range you may need...
Rich Collins - 1994/12
Morgan Hill, California
Gerald Smith - USHGA #00216 - 58 - Hang IV - UP Comet 165 - Sand Dollar Beach LZ, Big Sur, California
At about seventy feet he decided to land and began his regular approach. I know this approach well, because after seeing him perform consistently good landings I adopted it as my own. First, you climb to the upright position at about seventy feet on your base leg, with a slight turn toward final so as not to be bumped downwind. Second you turn your glider into the wind and begin final approach. Third, you pull in the bar. I know Gerry pulled in the bar because I saw him do it. Granted, you can't pull it in very far but he did pull in.
...to survive shear, thermal, or rotor turbulence.
You have no means of controlling speed or degrading glide when prone.
You're right, Steve. That is such a certifiably insane statement that one doesn't even know where to begin.
Whatever you hit that rips your arm off upright, will snap your neck when prone.
BULL FUCKING SHIT.
I don't know how things work on your planet but on this one what rips your arm off - or up - upright IS the upright.
...if the asshole who became our newest member - 2012/02/03 22:48:02 UTC - didn't keep pulling the videos which reveal him to be an asshole at the expense of people like you who could learn valuable lessons from his chronic cluelessness.
(Don't worry, Sparky. I've got copies of you ripping up you shoulder on that wheel-less Falcon landing and that clusterfuck of an AT dolly launch.)
Zack broke both arms in the course of a ground loop and nose-in at flare time. If his hands hadn't been on the downtubes he wouldn't have broken his arms and there was nothing in front of him to use to break his neck.
You always have the option of hugging the downtube when upright.
1. People are ripping their arms up when they're attempting to LAND.
2. When people blow a LANDING they don't have time or any NEED to hug a downtube. They just need to be able to let go of it.
3. Hugging the downtube is a technique for CRASHING. I have zero interest in discussing the best ways to crash on this forum. (But you're more than welcome to start a topic if your not terribly interested in discussing procedures and equipment to prevent crashes.)
Leading with your head, into any kind of trauma situation is not a good idea.
1. Leading with ANYTHING into a trauma situation is not a good idea.
2. That's why it's best to fly around or not create trauma situations.
3. This thread isn't about flying into trauma situations. It's about LANDING.
4. The safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...
Christian Thoreson - 2004/10
Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...
...is to lead with your head.
5. Whenever we find ourselves facing a potential trauma situation our best option for avoiding, mitigating, surviving it...
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...do THE PRECISE OPPOSITE of what you and the rest of the culture is pushing for landing safety.
- They stay on the basetube as long as possible.
- If it's an easy situation they go to the downtubes and land on their feet.
- If it's a dangerous situation they stay on the basetube and roll or belly in.
There will be no video as I do not have a video cam and no plans to get one.
Read what you quoted again. By "produce" a video I mean find one and post the link.
For example...
If I wanted to illustrate that real pilots in the real world coming into tight LZs in unfavorable conditions don't go upright to increase their roll authority or control their speed or glideslope, I would PRODUCE this:
Careful...if you score one hundred percent on the H4 test, you don't know the definition of wing loading.
Lemme guess...
Hook-in weight over square feet of sail area?
(Oh well, I just watched "Radioactive Wolves" again on PBS's Nature in which they identify Kestrels as Peregrines. And some idiot on their discussion group noted the error and properly identified them as Sakers.)
Here's Hearne when the grass gets bad (password = 'red'). http://vimeo.com/41007606
High grass landings
Your choices are to land in the grass or on pavement. The first guy in the video is a new H2 and demonstrates the hazards of trying to do a conventional wheel landing in grass like this. I had warned him about it before but apparently wasn't forceful enough, probably because I expected him to foot land that day.
I think it would be possible to land prone in high grass using a technique like the following, treating the top of the grass as the water (password = 'red'): http://vimeo.com/40987597
Lake landings
We use this with small floats at the lake because the glider can whack if it touches down with too much speed with them.
Zack C wrote:Careful...if you score one hundred percent on the H4 test, you don't know the definition of wing loading.
Lemme guess...
Hook-in weight over square feet of sail area?
No, worse. Wing area over total weight. I noticed the Sylmar club makes the same mistake in their web glossary.
WING LOADING - ratio of wing area to weight carried in flight. Determined by dividing glider's total wing area by the combined weight of pilot, glider and all gear that will be carried in flight.
WTF?
