You are NEVER hooked in.

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1048
Good Day at Crestline - May 26, 2012
Bob Kuczewski - 2012/05/27 02:20:44 UTC

It was a pretty good day at Crestline today (and probably still is as I'm writing this).

Several hang gliders and a few paragliders went up on Joe's shuttle at noon. Some of the HG's sunk out, but some got up. The paragliders had similar results. The problem was that the overcast was too thick for strong thermal development. So I waited for the sun to break through a little more. But eventually, I decided to go anyway, and I should have waited just a little longer. I got a nice flight of about 20 minutes, but shortly after I landed the sky started showing a lot more blue and a good mix of small puffy cumulus clouds.

Anyway, here are some pictures taken from my video camera ...

Hooking into the glider ( I was launching alone as the last one on the hill ):
v005_00m15s.jpg
Image
Walking down to launch in front of the parking lot barriers:
v005_01m47s.jpg
Image
Hook-In Check just before launch:
v005_03m38s.jpg
Image
Launch Run:
v005_04m24s.jpg
Image
Yeah Bob... Preflight your connection up on the flats, call it a hook-in check, move to launch position, then run off the mountain three quarters of a minute later just to show everyone how you don't hafta follow any safety rules you don't feel like following.

I'm guessing that - when he didn't hafta wait in line - forty-five seconds was about the time it usually took Jon Orders to move his tandem glider from the preflight/staging area to launch position and start his run.

Asshole. And tell Joe he can go fuck himself.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1022
young woman was killed in Tandem Discovery flight
Bob Kuczewski - 2012/05/28 18:55:30 UTC

I just read a good post on hanggliding dot org about failure to re-hook-in:
1. You wouldn't know a good post pertaining to this issue if it bit you in the ass.
2. All the GOOD posts on The Jack Show get sent to The Basement, locked down, and/or deleted.
3. The problem IS NOT failure to (re)hook in. The problem is FAILURE TO CHECK - JUST PRIOR TO *EVERY* LAUNCH.
Dan Johnson wrote:
No. Dan Johnson DIDN'T write. Dan Johnson quoted Brian Horgan quoting JJ Cote. And JJ's an asshole and a moron. And I already chewed up that idiot post at:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post2085.html#p2085
Based on the anecdotes that I have heard, I suspect that in the majority of failure-to-hook-in accidents, the pilot was hooked in at some point prior to the ill-fated launch. I've lost track of how many of these stories include the words "he backed off of launch and unhooked" (including the one that I witnessed). In my opinion, unhooking has got to be one of the most dangerous things one can do, inviting a disaster. You have the memory in your head of having hooked in, but you are not hooked in. No matter how many checks you've done before that point, they all go out the window once you open up that carabiner. One of my instructors told me that he would never under any circumstances unhook a 'biner with his helmet on (and putting on his helmet was the last thing he always did when getting ready). That way if he was ever unhooked, he would have his bare head as a reminder that he had to do all of the checks over again. My approach is to never unhook my harness from the glider unless I am in an LZ from where it's not possible to launch (in that case I might unhook before moving my glider to the edge of the field, depending on conditions and circumstances). I really think that in most cases, it's not "failure to hook in", but "failure to hook back in". Don't give that scenario a chance to arise.
I think the failure to re-hook-in does seem to be a major theme in many of these incidents.
Fuck you, Bob. You don't have the slightest clue what these incidents are about and you have zero real interest in preventing them.
I don't really agree with the helmet rule because I believe a pilot should NEVER be hooked into a glider without a helmet (for different reasons, of course).
1. Haven't spent much time in line at Ridgely waiting for all the Davis Link shitheads to get their subsidized "free" relaunches in front of you, have you Bob?

2. Name some people who've been fucked up 'cause they were hooked into a glider without a helmet.

3. Fuck your BELIEFS.
So I don't like the idea of taking off a helmet before unhooking.
But you're pretty cool with Davis Links and Wallaby and bent pin releases, right?
Even so, I think the failure to re-hook-in idea is an important concept in preventing these incidents.
Fuck what you THINK.
That's why a hook-in check just prior to launch is so important.
Yeah. If only you weren't too goddam stupid to understand the difference between a preflight inspection in the staging area and a hook-in check at launch position within two seconds of commitment.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26211
Video of scary launch and landing
Ryan Voight - 2012/05/28 15:54:32 UTC

First, you must take note of WHAT I said you were wrong about. I did not say that lifting the glider up so that your hang strap is tight before the first step is a bad technique... I merely said it's ONE technique, and that not everyone, including myself, uses it. I don't see how you can argue or even take offense to that?

Next I said that your statement that Ernie Camacho's fouled launch was due to not lifting the glider prior to running was not accurate. What I see in that launch is a glider getting ahead of the pilot. Either the glider accelerated faster than the pilot due to gravity, or he pushed it ahead of himself with either his shoulders or his hands. I fail to see how lifting the glider up higher remedies either symptom. Can he run faster while holding 75 lbs than he can with 75 lbs on his shoulders? This wasn't an angle-of-attack issue, which is usually where the tight hang strap thing is most relevant. What I see is someone saying their way is better, and that this guy needs to do it their way.... with no supporting argument. Perhaps if you elaborate on why you think lifting the glider before his first step would help. You talked about having more ground clearance while running... but the bar didn't touch until the glider was well ahead of him and he couldn't run another step...

Now, I'm not sure if you'd like to debate the tight hangstrap technique in general, or just how it applies/doesn't apply to Ernie's launch? If we're going to debate the merits of each technique, might I suggest a different thread with a more appropriate title?

As for launching efficiency... is it more efficient to lift 75 pounds or to rest it on your shoulders? I suspect the invention of the backpack might answer the question.
Ever seen:
- a 75 pound backpack float up off of anyone's shoulders:
-- a couple of steps into the beginning of a run in no wind?
-- while he's just standing still on the top of a slope with a gentle breeze coming in?
- anybody asking two or three guys to help him hold down a 75 pound backpack when the air's coming in a bit more strongly?
Launching is all about managing angle of attack and acceleration - getting the wing up to and beyond flying airspeed.
Getting THE WING up to and beyond flying airspeed is pretty much a nonissue. Getting the wing up to and beyond the airspeed required to lift itself along with a couple of hundred pounds of pilot and gear underneath it is sometimes a bit more problematic.
I fail to see how you hold your hands being a factor there. Some can do it one way, others can do it another... as long as the goal is accomplished, do you really care how their hands were or what their hang strap looked like during the first step?
I guess the answer to that depends a lot upon how confident the person is that the hang strap will come under load by the time he's airborne.

For really good pilots who really have their shit together it doesn't seem to be much of an issue.

But assholes like Yours Truly who always have trouble figuring out which end of the batten they're supposed to insert in the trailing edge often prefer get that item off the to do list before a lot of speed gets built up.
Here is a launch in light wind from just under 9k ft MSL... launching with a slack hang strap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1i9hh0753k


Could you please describe, in detail, how I could have been helped by lifting my glider off my shoulders before running?
Someone who always has his shit together as well as you do, Ryan? You're doing JUST FINE. Don't EVER change a thing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Why mess with success?

Asshole. Nah, make that Asshole, Jr.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=2082
Jeff Chipman - 2012/05/01 17:01
Sylmar

Complacency is NOT YOUR friend!

No events here at Sylmar, but yesterday at Crestline a pilot forgot to put both leg loops in.

From the Crestline forum:
Ken Howells - 2010/08/01 05:14

This was today, Saturday, 7/31.

I was flying and didn't see any of it; the guy had been my wire man walking to launch. Falcon pilot with a pod harness had done a hang check but didn't catch that his legs weren't through the leg loops. He launched from Crestline and did a series of steep diving turns because he was hanging from the downtubes. The harness had slipped up enough that he couldn't get his feet into the boot. He landed on a relatively flat brush-covered area down in the canyon between Crestline and Marshall. Unhurt except for some scratches on one leg. He packed up the glider somewhat and a rescue chopper plucked him from the brush and brought him down to the flats. He came to the LZ carrying his helmet (they told him to leave everything else) and told his story.

Lucky and clear-headed dealing with a very serious mistake.
Lucky pilot indeed.

Wire crew, if you're gonna help, then insist on checking the 5 C's (is that it Greblo?)
http://www.crestlinesoaring.org/forum/20100731/3486
NMERider - 2010/08/01 05:56

Cripes!

I am so relieved to learn the leg loop-less pilot kept his cool and minimized the carnage.

Ironically, USHPA videographer, Greg Gillam was supposed to be at Crestline Wednesday afternoon shooting a safety video after they got finished at Dockweiler Beach in the morning with Paul Voight et al. I participated in the Tuesday safety shoot at Kagel and we all did the hang checks, etc. on video before doing aggressive launch runs.
Complacency is NOT YOUR friend!
These things don't happen because of COMPLACENCY, Jeff. They happen because of shit training.
...but yesterday at Crestline a pilot forgot to put both leg loops in.
If you get one you're OK.
Ken Howells - 2010/08/01
So Ken...
Rob Kells - 2005/12

My partners (Steve Pearson and Mike Meier) and I have over 25,000 hang glider flights between us and have managed (so far) to have hooked in every time. I also spoke with test pilots Ken Howells and Peter Swanson about their methods (another 5000 flights). Not one of us regularly uses either of the two most popular methods outlined above. Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.
You don't use the goddam hang check to verify your connection, you agree that it is the fear of launching unhooked that makes you diligent to be sure you are hooked in every time before starting the launch run, but your only comment is:
Falcon pilot with a pod harness had done a hang check but didn't catch that his legs weren't through the leg loops.
Fuck you.
Lucky and clear-headed dealing with a very serious mistake.
Screw luck and clear-headedness. What happened to the goddam hook-in check?
Wire crew, if you're gonna help, then insist on checking the 5 C's (is that it Greblo?)
1. Wire crew is something you have AT LAUNCH.

2. The function of the wire crew is to enable you to have or assist you in having a safe LAUNCH.

3. The function of the wire crew IS NOT...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1167
The way it outa be
Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/04 14:04:25 UTC

One last attempt.

We have now rounded up all the usual suspects and promised renewed vigilance, nine page checklists, hang checks every six feet, etc. Bob Gillisse redux.

A hang check is part of preflighting your equipment. You do it in the setup area - not on the launch or the ramp. When you get in line you are hooked in and ready to go. No going down for a hang check cum hook-in check.
...to assist you in completing bullshit preflight procedures.

4. Assuming that a wire crewman is a USHGA rated pilot and given that we're always making a lot of noise about being a self regulated branch of aviation he has a responsibility to ensure that a hook-in check is performed JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH.

5. If the wire crew consists of two or more members that hook-in check WILL BE a tightening of the suspension which automatically verifies the leg loops.

6. Fuck the Five Cs. The Five Goddam Cs are elements of a preflight inspection. Joe's teaching people to preflight their gliders, skip the hook-in check, and run off the ramp.

7. At the instant of launch you only wanna be concerned about ONE issue - Can you fall out of your glider?

8. There are three ways to fall out of your glider.

- Partial hook-in. Make sure your carabiner is fully engaged at connection and preflight. DO NOT check for partial hook-in at launch. If you can't get that much right beforehand then don't fly.

- Leg loops. Preflight after you get into your harness and recheck as close to launch as possible.

- Not hooked or unhooked. Do the fuckin' hook-in check IMMEDIATELY prior to launch.

9. Lift and tug catches not/un hooked and leg loops. But Joe totally refuses to teach, endorse, or consider lift and tug - or anything else resembling a proper hook-in check.
Ironically, USHPA videographer, Greg Gillam was supposed to be at Crestline Wednesday afternoon shooting a safety video...
You mean the "safety" video completely devoid of any depiction of anybody verifying his connection JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH? Fuck anybody who had anything to do with that abomination.
I participated in the Tuesday safety shoot at Kagel and we all did the hang checks, etc...
What do you mean "et cetera"? I didn't see the tiniest hint of "et cetera" ONCE anywhere in the entire goddam propaganda film.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1022
young woman was killed in Tandem Discovery flight
Al Hernandez - 2012/06/04 17:48:26 UTC

According to Tad you are never hooked in with that thought in mind you may live a little longer... I was told by Jeffo, even if I know that I am hook into the Glider...
There IS NO even if you KNOW you're hooked in. You're not. Screw Jeffo.
...it is good to ask your wire man or the guys around you to check, four to six eyes are better than two...
It NEVER hurts to have extra eyes but...
- What, of any significance, do you think they'll be able to find that you won't in the time it takes to ask them?
- If they're any good they're gonna be looking anyway.
...you can yell I am hooked in...
You're NOT hooked in.
...you would hope to notice someone else look your way to check that you are hooked in...
Don't you think you'd get a lot more serious attention if you yelled "UNHOOKED!"?
...or you can ask for a second or third inspection of your hook in before launch.
You NEED to:
- have:
-- your carabiner fully engaging your hang strap
-- at least one leg loop
- be connected to your glider

Anything beyond that is trivial crap that won't kill you.
The first two are preflight issues.
The last two are launch sequence issues.
Waht I do:

1. You have done your pre-flight... Next you want to make sure that you have your harness on right that your legs are in the loops and everything should be where it needs to be, even it mean hanging from a tree to make sure your harness in on right you would not want to slip out of it
Nobody hangs from trees when they have gliders around. And if they don't have gliders around there's not much point.
2. You have walked your glider to the launch area, and you know that you are unhooked, this should be an automatic Alert for every pilot.
Good luck with that.
3. You get the foot of the launch and turn around and hook your carabiner to the hang strap and lock it...
You don't need to have either a locked or locking carabiner. Locked and locking carabiner only make things more dangerous.
You tell your wireman to hold the glider's nose, while you do hook in check turn around and check again too see that you are hanging and check hang loops too... You pick the glider up and let it fly till you feel the tug on your back... I then put the glider down and do a step foward to feel another tug on my back at that point I ask the wireman to check my hang straps for a second look I am on the ramp ready to launch feeling the tug on my back waiting for the right cycle to blow by for my launch
Sam Kellner - 2012/06/04 21:23:04 UTC

According to Tad, you must look to verify, every 5, five, seconds. Image Image
Quote me saying ANYTHING LIKE THAT, pigfucker.
- I don't EVER *LOOK* as part of my hook-in check.
- I have NEVER ONCE done a hook-in check outside of two seconds prior to commitment.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.
Steve Davy - 2011/10/24 10:27:04 UTC

OK- how many times does he need confirm that he is hooked in? And when would be the best time to make that confirmation?
Brian McMahon - 2011/10/24 21:04:17 UTC
Once, just prior to launch.
Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

I agree with that statement.

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.
Anything that happened earlier was nervous fidgeting of which I never had any clear recollection.
Your procedure does not comply, Al. What are you going to do about that. Image
Fuck you.

Hey Bob,

I really admire the way The Bob Show really does honor the free speech of its members - to the point that any stupid pigfucker can state any FACTS he feels like without getting called on it.

Fuck you.
Rick Masters - 2012/06/09 02:09:52 UTC

Like many posters here, I have observed tandem flying from the earliest days. When tandem hang gliding began, it was a joyous sharing experience between the pilot and a close friend, male or female.
You mean like...
Name withheld by request - 1977/10

During the Nationals two people forgot to hook up before flying. I was one of them. The one thing which made my failure to hook-up totally inexcusable is that I had a passenger with me.

My passenger and I had prepared to take off four times, including a static check the first time. Each time the wind died I unhooked while Cindy remained attached the glider. The last time we moved into position. I made sure she was hooked in, then I sat down next to her. We waited about five minutes, until the wind blew up the hill. We picked the glider up and I felt the tension of the harness, only it was the tension from her harness I felt, not mine. The take off run went great and airspeed picked up rapidly. By the time I realized something was wrong, Cindy was flying off a nine hundred foot hill on her first solo flight. As I watched in horror, she made a porpoising flight, a 180 degree turn, and then made a safe landing. She suffered a few scratches and the glider was undamaged.

I want to apologize to the people of Heavener, and everybody involved with the meet for almost leaving a horrible scar on the Nationals. I especially want to apologize to Cindy for taking her life into my hands and then committing such a careless error.

I used to say such a thing could never happen to me, but now I know it can happen to anybody. So everybody please be careful.
...that one?
The pilot had extreme PERSONAL concern for the safety of his passenger, who he knew well and cared deeply for. The double check, the triple check, was automatic. Because the pilot cared deeply about his passenger, he held an innate and overriding concern about safety. This concern was not diluted by any other interest such as MONEY.

But the entire purpose of tandem flying moved to almost pure commercialization in the 1990s to the present. The innate concern for a close friend's safety transformed into a sometimes fallible mental checklist for a professional commercial endeavor. The unnecessary endorsement of the national organizations for the myth of tandem "in$truction" has been a strong element in the transformation of the sport of free flight into a commercial business where pilots often made hundreds of dollars for every flight. Worse, the influence of too much MONEY led the USHGA toward other promises of income -- and we ended up selling the USHGA to the paragliding business. Worse, we hang glider pilots effectively lost our representative organization.

Let's call a spade a spade. Tandem commercial hang gliding helped lead to the destruction of the national hang gliding organizations worldwide which were subsequently taken over by paragliding interests. MONEY talks. The only way to shut MONEY up -- and we could do it anytime with a simple vote -- is to BAN COMMERCIAL TANDEM OPERATIONS in both sports.

I won't miss it. And you won't believe how fast things will change when we get rid of it.

Also, I agree entirely with ALL of Joe's observations. Most pilots, it seems to me, have lost sight of what hang gliding really is.
You are so TOTALLY *FULL* *OF* *SHIT*.

Since THE BEGINNING OF TIME people have been launching themselves solo, themselves tandem, and their passengers tandem unhooked ALWAYS with the result of mortification at a minimum and death and destroyed lives at a maximum. And the suggestion that tandem incidents happen at increased rates because one of the people under the glider cares more about the two hundred bucks than he does about killing a passenger and/or himself and becoming an overnight international news sensation is the most moronic thing I've heard coming out of this sport since reading the article on weak links by Drs. Lisa Colletti and Tracy S. Tillman in the 2012/06 issue of Hang Gliding magazine - possibly even before.

THE reason these things happen is 'cause every jerk in this sport and his idiot fuckin' dog...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=802
AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went
Rick Masters - 2011/10/19 22:47:17 UTC

At that moment, I would banish all concern about launching unhooked. I had taken care of it. It was done. It was out of my mind.
...has some clever little procedure he uses to justify violating the USHGA regulation which states:
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
Idiot.
deltaman
Posts: 177
Joined: 2011/03/29 11:07:42 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by deltaman »

Hi,
sorry I didn't read the 28 pages but some..
If you mind, could you tell me which hook-in check gesture you recomend for special cases as:
turbulent windy take off
tandem (pilot & passenger)
rigid wings
large A-frame
old shoulders

Imagine a pilot alone on the take off.

what do you expect exactly from the crew on take off?

I understand the hook-in check just prior to launch as a launch sequence but as every FTHI was a human mistake why not thinking that one day a pilot will skip this part of the launch sequence.. kook-in check is in the launch sequence could just be a rhetorical proposal ?..

Thanks
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

If you mind, could you tell me which hook-in check gesture you recomend for special cases...
Whatever the case...
Rob Kells - 2005/12

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.
...you have to be SCARED you're going to launch unhooked AT THE INSTANT OF COMMITMENT TO LAUNCH.

- I doubt that in the entire history of hang gliding anyone who was scared he was going to launch unhooked two seconds before launch ever did.

- If you're scared I predict that your chances of launching unhooked are going to plummet to near zero with that factor alone.

- I was ALWAYS *GENUINELY* SCARED before EVERY launch. It wasn't anything I ever had to fake or remember.

- If I was on a shallow sand dune in light air where I couldn't have hurt myself if I tried I was scared of bending something on my glider and humiliating myself.

- If I was on a ramp the thought of what could happen churned my stomach.

- Even if you have no hook-in check routine just being scared will very probably trigger you to remember that you didn't hook in or unhooked afterwards.
Steve Kinsley - 1998/02/02 01:59

I would like to second Judy's hook in post. I particularly like the emphasis on implementing the USHGA standard of verifying that you are hooked in just prior to launch. In practice, that means a visual check or a tug on the harness lines after ALL CHECKLIST ITEMS (including a hang check) have been completed.

I started doing that after my near launch unhooked from High Rock several years ago. It works. I think I have a reasonable claim to being the world's most scatterbrained living hang glider pilot.
In this game we extremely scatterbrained pilots have a HUGE advantage over responsible, focused, disciplined pilots.

- We KNOW we're ten times as likely to launch unhooked as responsible, focused, disciplined pilots.
- Therefore we're fifty times as scared as responsible, focused, disciplined pilots.
- Therefore we're a thousand times less likely to launch unhooked as responsible, focused, disciplined pilots are.
...as:
turbulent windy take off
That's when unhooked launches are LEAST likely to happen.

- You'll have wire crew and you'll want your wing up high and out into the airflow. Your suspension WILL be tight if you're using a safe and appropriate launch technique.
tandem (pilot & passenger)
- Be a hundred times as scared as you are solo. Think for half a second about what Jon Orders was feeling as Lenami pulled his shoes off a thousand feet over the slope.

- Include your passenger in the process. Let him know what a dangerous issue this is. You and your passenger check BOTH connections AT LAUNCH POSITION and JUST BEFORE PICKING UP THE GLIDER - EVERY TIME.
rigid wings
large A-frame
old shoulders
I was fortunate enough to have been easily able to lift the glider enough to tighten my suspension on everything I ever flew. The downside of that is that I never had to develop or gain experience with any other technique.

This:

Wheel Landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPkfO52cjQg
Sparkozoid - 2012/04/30
dead

isn't perfect - but it's probably good enough to get one through a career.

An idea I had a back in March...

1. Attach a length of light leechline to the carabiner. (Tape or rubber band it so it can't catch on a wire and interfere with control.
2. Before you launch run the string through your hand from the carabiner to the free end and put the string between your teeth.
3. Don't launch solo unless you've got the end of the string between your teeth.
4. Don't launch tandem unless you've got both ends of both strings between your teeth.
Imagine a pilot alone on the take off.
I don't have to - but, anyway, there are usually people around at these scenic overlooks who can be recruited.
what do you expect exactly from the crew on take off?
Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).
I EXPECT from my crew exactly the level of competency demonstrated by the crews of Bob Gillisse and Bill Priday. What I would LIKE from crews is an insistence on hook-in checks - but I don't expect to live long enough to see that ever become established as a practice anywhere.
I understand the hook-in check just prior to launch as a launch sequence but as every FTHI was a human mistake why not thinking that one day a pilot will skip this part of the launch sequence..
1. The people who launch themselves and their passengers ARE NOT people who JUST HAPPEN to be unhooked the ONE TIME they "FORGET" to do a hook-in check. The people who launch themselves and their passengers are people who have NEVER made the SLIGHTEST EFFORT to establish ANY hook-in check routine. They do just fine for hundreds or thousands of consecutive launches so why bother?

2. When people get their brains wired to appreciate the danger of those critical two seconds they don't EVER make this human mistake - kinda like a zebra doesn't ever forget how to react when a lion explodes out of the brush.
kook-in check is in the launch sequence could just be a rhetorical proposal ?..
Nope. Recognizing that you're a kook is the key to the whole issue. Do that and everything falls into place. No kooks will hit the ground before their gliders.
deltaman
Posts: 177
Joined: 2011/03/29 11:07:42 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by deltaman »

Lift & Tug
hard to lift and tug with no wind + heavy glider (atos VR #45kg..) + bad static balance + low hanging point on a big A-frame and a modern harness with a rail > quite tricky to do it in certain circumstances without getting in trouble (irregular wind)
Seems to me that the alternative technic is impossible to do with low hanging point on a big A-frame and a modern harness with a long plate and a rail.
not convinced by the leechline. If some can forget the carabiner at preflight, they can forget the leechline too..
I'm afraid that the fear of not being hook-in can disapear for a regular pilot accustomed and comfortable on his own takeoff who has never encountered hook-in issue..
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

hard to lift and tug with no wind + heavy glider (atos VR #45kg..) + bad static balance...
I doubt the static balance is so bad as to be a significant problem for anyone strong enough to safely foot launch the glider. We're talking about an action which requires about a second to complete.
...quite tricky to do it in certain circumstances without getting in trouble (irregular wind)
If this is quite tricky to do it in certain circumstances without getting in trouble (irregular wind) then the same is probably true for the launch itself. And if that's the case you probably need crew. And ANYBODY flying ANYTHING can EASILY get the suspension tight with the assistance of crew.
Seems to me that the alternative technic is impossible to do with low hanging point on a big A-frame and a modern harness with a long plate and a rail.
If so - fine. Do the next best thing that works for you under the circumstances.

Move to launch position, set the glider down, touch your leg loops, walk through the control frame until you're stopped, then pick up the glider. If the air doesn't straighten up put the glider back down and relax until it does. Then repeat the procedure before you pick it back up.

I know of NO ONE who's made an effort to establish that procedure who's launched unhooked.
not convinced by the leechline. If some can forget the carabiner at preflight, they can forget the leechline too..
No.

THE SINGLE MOST DANGEROUS THING that anyone in foot launched hang gliding can do is ASSUME that he's hooked in based upon what he REMEMBERS or THINKS HE REMEMBERS doing with the carabiner at PREFLIGHT.

Many people have died because they thought they had connected and checked and because they HAD connected and checked but subsequently DISCONNECTED and only remembered that they had disconnected when it was two seconds too late.

Therefore one must NEVER allow himself to be reassured that he's hooked in based on something he did more than five or ten seconds ago - and, preferably, a lot less.

I've launched more times than I care to remember or admit with a flapping chin strap, a dangling chest buckle, untensioned battens, and luff lines snagged under batten tips. One time I was walking to launch and my control frame fell apart because I hadn't installed a downtube / basetube junction pin. (Last time I screwed that pooch.)

But I have NEVER come anywhere CLOSE to forgetting / failing to do a hook-in check within two seconds of launch. The mere thought of running off a slope or ramp without a lift and tug horrifies me. I'm fully confident that if I had trained myself for the leechline trick I'd have been equally reliable.

I would predict that if someone makes a reasonable effort to train himself for the leechline trick he will in very short order feel totally naked without the string in teeth when he's trimming the glider for launch.
I'm afraid that the fear of not being hook-in can disapear for a regular pilot accustomed and comfortable on his own takeoff who has never encountered hook-in issue..
You are ABSOLUTELY ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CORRECT.

And the chances that that "pilot" will launch unhooked at some point over a long career are very high. Statistically he will have about Russian roulette odds of not getting seriously hurt. He'll do it on a beach, training hill, or shallow slope or tow operation and/or be able to abort.

And there are people who still don't get it and launch unhooked a second time without getting hurt. Davis immediately comes to mind (unfortunately).

But often enough there's a Bill Priday or Kunio Yoshimura who gets an opportunity to experience the consequences of being accustomed to and comfortable with his own takeoff just ONCE.
Rob Kells - 2005/12

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.
If you don't have or lose the fear of launching unhooked your probability of launching unhooked SKYROCKETS.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18876
Hang glider Crash
Helen McKerral - 2010/09/07 00:16:04 UTC

There have been numerous threads in the past about unhooked launches and ways to prevent them. One constant poster, Tad, had an unfortunate brow-beating style that flooded threads and got him banned, but IMO his point was nonetheless valid; people simply got so annoyed by his style, they stopped listening and his message was lost.

Basically, the idea is that no matter whether you use the Aussie method or not (another emotive topic), or how you do your hang check (step through or hang, look, feel, whatever) the VERY LAST THING you do immediately before every launch is to lift the glider up off your shoulders so the hangstrap goes tight and you FEEL the tug of your legloops around your groin/thighs.

More important, I think, is a change in mindset: that you constantly assume that you are NOT hooked in. That is the default mindset and only after you've done the lift and tug - immediately before every launch - do you decide you're hooked in. Also, because the default assumption is negative rather than positive, you are much less likely to start any run unhooked.

The way I've tried to incorporate it is to make L&T the first part of the physical act of lifting the glider to my shoulders in preparation for launch ie instead of lifting it to my shoulders, I lift it higher (L&T), then lower it to my shoulders, then start my run. In strong conditions this is more difficult but I often launch with a tight hangstrap then anyway (always in the Malibu, occasionally in the Litesport).

I've adopted the lift and tug but I'm an old dog learning a new trick and I still forget to do it some of the time. However, although I've found that it's very hard to remember to do if you try to remember 'L&T', if you change your mindset to, "I'm not hooked in", it's easier to recall. It would be easier if I had learned it from the start, so it was a physical muscle memory instilled from my first days on the training hill, just like the grapevine grip changing to bottle.

Even if you don't follow the "mindset" part, it's an extra layer of security and there is no possible harm in it if it is an *additional* check; for me, a third one after Aussie method (hook harness to glider), hang check (look at biner, feel loop and riser, tug each leg strap), then walk to launch, do whatever (wait, set glider down, etc.) and then the final lift and tug as I pick up my glider immediately before I start my run.

I won't go into any more pros and cons of any of these things, they've been debated ad nauseam and every possible permutation has already been covered, just do a few searches.
More important, I think, is a change in mindset: that you constantly assume that you are NOT hooked in.
Dead on. Get the mindset right and you're pretty much bulletproof.
Even if you don't follow the "mindset" part, it's an extra layer of security and there is no possible harm in it if it is an *additional* check...
Start thinking that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.
Steve Davy - 2011/10/24 10:27:04 UTC

OK- how many times does he need confirm that he is hooked in? And when would be the best time to make that confirmation?
Brian McMahon - 2011/10/24 21:04:17 UTC

Once, just prior to launch.
Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

I agree with that statement.

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.
...you're probably OK because you never get into your harness unless it's connected to your harness and you did a hang check at the back of the ramp - but you should probably do a hook-in check as an extra layer of security and a harmless *additional* check AND YOU ARE SETTING YOURSELF UP.
Steve Davy
Posts: 1338
Joined: 2011/07/18 10:37:38 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Steve Davy »

I never got the fear. I flew sporadically from 1980 though 87 and don't remember much of that.

When I returned in 2009 I went to Mission and was taught to lift and tug while yelling "Hooked in, balanced, clear" before every launch. The thought of being fearful was never instilled.

Two days after 'earning' my hang two I asked Mark to show me some stuff. I was clear to fly the 600 and assumed that is where we would be heading, but nooo. That son of gun put me right back on the sixty foot training hill. We watched as students did their, walk, jog, run launches with their down tubes resting on their shoulders. Mark told me I wouldn't be doing any of that today.

I'm up and he tells me to pull the hang strap tight before launching so I did. It was a good launch, or so I thought, afterwards he looks at me and asks "Is that as fast as you can run?" A dozen or so launches later I was starting to get it, pulling the strap tight and blasting off launch. I was flying twice as far as I did with walk, jog, run.

It was late in the day and the wind was getting gusty and had switched to ninety degrees! I'm thinking, cool I can go home now, but noooo, Mark had other ideas. In one miserable day Mark had taught me most of the fundamental techniques I need to launch a Glider.

Today the idea of moving a foot without the hang strap pulling on my harness is unimaginable.

I didn't even know about the fear until I found Kite Strings.
Post Reply