landing

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
miguel
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Re: landing

Post by miguel »

Tad Eareckson wrote:
Mike Ivey - 2012/05/29 07:07 UTC

Not to be outdone by OP, I collided with the windsock pipe on landing Sunday. Result was a pretty nasty fracture of right humerus. Had surgery to put in a rod on Monday morning and as of Monday night am still at Holy Cross.

Doing fine, still don't have cast, but expecting to get discharged Tuesday or Wednesday. Thanks a ton to all the pilots who helped. Especially Caitlin and Kathy for the ride to the hospital. BTW Rob, they still have me in your sling.

X-rays to come.
Wild guess... Upright?
Tad wrote: - was coming into a very wheel friendly putting green;
- was in reasonably good control of the situation before he went upright;
- lost control of the situation upon and as a result of going upright; and
- would be flying next weekend with the same downtubes if he had stayed prone all the way in.
More wild guesses?????????????? :mrgreen:
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Very educated guesses based on science, physics, logic and decades worth of experience, observation, and incident reports.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
Virtually all:
- humerus fractures and shoulder dislocations occur because of a hand being on the downtube when the glider stops
- dangerous compromises and losses of control during landing occur because of a hand being and/or being moved off of the basetube
The overwhelming majority of aerotow crashes are caused by 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak links.
The ONLY people who run off ramps with dangling carabiners are those who NEVER established hook-in check routines in compliance with USHGA rating requirements.
ALL Aussie Methodists are MORONS.
This is what science tells us and you can take science based predictions to the bank.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3288
My "dishonorable return to Earth", AKA landing
Vrezh Tumanyan - 2012/05/28 23:39:22 UTC

Sunday, May 27 I had my second mountain flight which I ended in a crash landing at the end of the "runaway" runway.

Some background info:

Started HG twelve years ago. Have mostly been active, topless since '04.

Just back to the sport after 1.5 year long hiatus. Went through some "rehabilitation" before flying Kagel again.

First, I went to the beach training site and did number of hops on a Falcon to check and refresh my muscle memory.

The second stage of "rehabilitation" was the "Big O Loop" training session at AJX, Crestline club in San Bernardino:

http://bigoloop.com/

There I did two flights from a five hundred foot hill on a Falcon and five on my Litespeed.

Everything went smooth, and I went on to take a late flight from Kagel last week, May 20th. After 1.5 hours I decided it was enough for the first mountain flight and landed uneventfully.

Sunday, May 27 had my second flight from Kagel. Some 2.5 hours of good ol' exhilarating flying.

Before heading out to land, mentally went through my landing routine and decided to land on the top flat area rather than on the upslope beginning part, where I usually used to end up always. The air in that part tends to be tricky due to being a merging point for two different air masses coming from the upper LZ and lower riverbed.

The air was very buoyant, despite being late in the day. I had to look for a "sinkhole" to get down.

Went to downwind leg a bit higher, to make it to the upper LZ. I must have been climbing going downwind, but did not adjust accordingly, and turned into base even higher.

Having been able to deal with extra altitude before, I decided to proceed onto final without worrying much about it.

If you stuff the bar on a Litespeed far enough, it will point the nose to the ground and dive like a Falcon, maybe even better. Both hands on the bar, pushed all the way back to my toes I went for it. At the beginning of the "runaway" runway I was already skimming low and fast but I knew I had too much energy to bleed before I reached the end of it. Still trying to round up, I managed to shift my right hand into flare position, but lost the control trying to transition the left hand.

There was so much energy that the bar just popped up immediately and I missed the left downtube in a vain and desperate attempt to grab it. Twice.

The glider turned right sharply, I knew I lost it and was going to break something.

Ended up hitting the dirt pile on the right side of the runway. Broken downtube, some minor bruises on my leg and some serious humiliation (would feel differently if it wasn't my second flight).

On a hind side, there seems to be some entertainment value too this incident, judging by the overly excited reaction of spectators. Later, over beer and laughters it was suggested to call it a "dishonorable landing".

On a more serious note, here is my brief analysis:

- In general, I am not a great lander to begin with. I should take concrete steps and get better at it, period.

- I should have done my "regular" landing, instead of attempting a different approach for some time, until I am all comfortable with my landings again.

- Arriving too high, easily could have done a 360 before final, or...

- Once in a frozen state of mind and soo preoccupied with a single goal of getting down no matter what, could have jumped onto control bar (monkey flying), which would've got me down much faster (I've done "monkey flying", I know how), or...

- Just forget the upper LZ, fly the glider and land in the wash.

Apparently, there were other landing incidents before mine, I heard talks about difficult landing conditions of that particular day, but I attribute my bad landing solely to my bad execution.

Happy flying!
Before heading out to land, mentally went through my landing routine and decided to land on the top flat area rather than on the upslope beginning part, where I usually used to end up always. The air in that part tends to be tricky due to being a merging point for two different air masses coming from the upper LZ and lower riverbed.
Yeah, upslope upwind landing near the beginning of the runway. Best to eliminate that threat as soon in your approach as possible.
I must have been climbing going downwind, but did not adjust accordingly, and turned into base even higher.
Maybe overshooting your base, pulling a 180, and coming back to arrive at something in the ballpark of a proper glidepath for final wouldn't have been a bad idea?
Having been able to deal with extra altitude before...
EXTRA altitude is NEVER a problem one needs to deal with UNTIL one turns onto final.
...I decided to proceed onto final without worrying much about it.
Yep.
If you stuff the bar on a Litespeed far enough, it will point the nose to the ground and dive like a Falcon, maybe even better.
DEFINITELY better. The Litespeed will do lotsa things better than a Falcon.
Both hands on the bar...
Excellent place for them.
Still trying to round up...
Why?
...I managed to shift my right hand into flare position...
Yeah. How are you gonna stop it on your feet without having your hands in flare position?
...but lost the control trying to transition the left hand.
Oh. You took a hand off the control bar and you lost control. Who'da thunk.
I should have done my "regular" landing, instead of attempting a different approach for some time, until I am all comfortable with my landings again.
THEN it'll be OK to resume throwing away runway options during your approach.
Once in a frozen state of mind and soo preoccupied with a single goal of getting down no matter what, could have jumped onto control bar (monkey flying), which would've got me down much faster...
Yeah. That's what all the really good pilots do - dive the glider at VNE into ground effect then climb up into the control frame to increase drag.
There was so much energy that the bar just popped up immediately and I missed the left downtube in a vain and desperate attempt to grab it. Twice.
Do we get to hear anything about prioritizing control of the fuckin' glider over moving one's hands to the downtubes in preparation for the performance hang gliding's most sacred of all rituals?
Just kidding.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

miguel - 2012/05/30 15:12:23 UTC

More wild guesses?????????????? :mrgreen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBMDjomY2Mw

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miguel
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Re: landing

Post by miguel »

Tad Eareckson wrote:
miguel - 2012/05/30 15:12:23 UTC

More wild guesses?????????????? :mrgreen:
I see one hand up and one hand down. I see the other hand come up in a controlled manner; Glider does not deviate off course. I think he hit the post for reasons other than loss of control due to being upright.
Steve Davy
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Re: landing

Post by Steve Davy »

This guy wasn't flying the glider, the glider was flying him. He didn't even try to land it, he took a few steps and braced for impact.

I hope he recovers a hundred percent and finds a more suitable hobby.
miguel
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Re: landing

Post by miguel »

Good to see you back.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

I think he hit the post for reasons other than loss of control due to being upright.
Correct. He hit the pole because he prioritized being upright and stopping on his feet. Same reason John Simon clipped the sign and Tony Ameo clipped the tree.

If you go to:
http://www.kitestrings.org/
The first thing it says is:
Kite Strings
A forum devoted to the scientific advancement of hang gliding
Here's some data upon which we can make scientific predictions:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
1. Nobody's arguing that that's not true.
2. The ONLY reason, for all intents and purposes, that upper arms are getting broken is because gliders are stopping when people have their hands on downtubes.
3. The ONLY reason people have hands on downtubes is to do standup landings.
4. The situations in which people NEED to do standup landings are statistically nonexistent.
5. When your hands are on the downtubes and you're upright your control authority goes to hell.

Using ONLY the information that Mike flew into a windsock pole and broke his humerus I made some predictions. He:
- was:
-- upright with his hands on the downtubes
-- coming into a very wheel friendly putting green
-- in reasonably good control of the situation before he went upright
- lost control of the situation upon and as a result of going upright
- would be flying next weekend with the same downtubes if he had stayed prone all the way in

ALL of those were DEAD ON.
- The single most important thing he had to do in that exercise was not fly into the pole.
- But instead he prioritized pulling off a dangerous stunt landing and all of his focus, actions, and speed and control reserves were squandered on that goal.
- And once again we have a glaring textbook illustration of why Joe Greblo's ace student George Stebbins is totally full of shit on this issue. (Take a look at Mike centerpunching the pole with his face. This one coulda been a lot worse.)
You are about to hit the pole. Do you:

a). hit the pole squarely, while prone because you have your Joe Faust approved neck support;
b). hug that downtube and hit the pole while hugging the downtube.
1. He hits the pole about as squarely as humanly possible. I couldn't have done that well on a thousand dollar bet.

2. Advising people to hug a downtube of a flying glider is - as this glaring textbook example illustrates - bullshit. If you've got the time to hug a downtube you've got even more time not to fly into the pole.
I hope he recovers a hundred percent and finds a more suitable hobby.
Cut him a little slack. He got behind the situation and bonked the landing. I've seen a million just like that one minus the pole. And because of the pole he paid a pretty terrible price.

My problem is with his asshole instructors who hardwired him for rotating up early and stopping on his feet beyond any other consideration.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land but for me the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare. The flare window is really long on a T2, maybe two seconds or fifty feet, but I can't initiate pitch unless the wings are level and the glider isn't yawed. Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

My other comment is that I like to make a long low final. I can flare more aggressively from close to the ground, I don't have to worry about mushing through a gradient and I'm only arresting forward motion.
http://vimeo.com/36062225

T2 Landing 2/1/2012

If Mike had been taught to stay prone with his hands on the basetube until the last three seconds and not to worry about bellying in then his life would be going a lot better right now.

Another prediction...

If/when he comes back he'll continue doing his approaches and rotating up exactly as he did on this one.
Steve Davy
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Re: landing

Post by Steve Davy »

He is trying to land a Sport 2 into the wind and lets the glider fly him into a pole. Regardless if he goes upright or not he needed to be proactive and take charge of his wing.

Whatever his instructor told him, nothing's stopping him from thinking for himself. If he can't be bothered to pilot his Aircraft he shouldn't be flying one.

I cut him a ton o slack for bonking in, but crashing into a pole, not so much.

And when/if he comes back and continues to fly into stuff he's going to kill himself.
Good to see you back.
Thanks. Any news on the big sharp rocks from McClure? Mine are getting dull what with all the side wire grindings. ;)
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Whatever his instructor told him, nothing's stopping him from thinking for himself.
I keep remembering the way my brain totally switched off when Chad Elchin told me that a loop of 130 pound Greenspot blew at 260 pounds and that translated to a lot of stress on the glider. (Or was it "equipment"?) It took many years to get it glowing again and a couple more to get it fully rebooted.
I cut him a ton o slack for bonking in, but crashing into a pole, not so much.
It was a matter of monkeys and typewriters. It WAS going to happen to SOMEONE eventually. He drew the short straw.
And when/if he comes back and continues to fly into stuff he's going to kill himself.
Probably won't kill himself. Probably just keep bonking landings and, if he stays in long enough, break an arm again or dislocate a shoulder.
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