is a bad landing. Using that as a zero on a one to ten perfection scale yours was about an eight.
The primary reasons you tore up your shoulder were that you ELECTED to:
- fly with nothing capable or rolling or even skidding on your basetube; and
- land with your hands on the downtubes for a standup landing you had no need of doing and couldn't pull off anyway.
I am fortunate that we have an excellent instructor in Colorado with some great scooter tow systems and a good tow site. Every day Mark Windsheimer teaches is an opportunity for a landing clinic. Through Mark's advice and some repetition, I've made some improvements. I know I will always need to work on improving.
You've been flying A LOT for 36 years. Name another flavor of aviation in which someone who's flown regularly for 36 years needs to improve his landings and an instructor to help him do it.
If we still need help improving our landing after two or three decades it's not 'cause there's something wrong with US. It's 'cause there's something seriously wrong with the landing technique itself - in this case trying to whipstall the plane at just the right instant to go from just over stall speed to a dead controlled stop.
I needed some practice, so I spent an afternoon scooter towing with Mark at: http://www.airtimeabove.com
I started with Mark's Falcon 195 and then transitioned to my U2 160. By the end of the day, I had made ten flights. Scooter tow is an excellent way to practice and improve takeoff, landing approaches, hand transition, and flare timing skills.
1. Scooter tow is also an excellent way to drive shards of you shin bones out through the soles of your shoes if you're not doing hook-in checks JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH and your driver isn't requiring and looking for them.
2. I don't think I've ever seen any videos of you flying anywhere in which you NEED hand transition and flare timing skills.
3. If Mark were such an awesome fucking instructor you'd know what a spreader bar is and how to set it.
kukailimoku wrote:seem to remember a certain Tontar using his technique to enter and stabilize a pretty gorgeous spin at Ed Levin Park...on a Vision Mark IV. Not the easiest trick in the book and a really good demonstration that "spinning" is still "flying in control", at least for the truly twisted. If you're waiting for the glider to do stuff, you're way behind...
(A funny side note: I believe Jean-Michel was standing next to me and, when Tontar got up on the downtubes and it was obvious what he was going to do, commented softly, "That will neeevaaaairrrr spin...".)
Someone should tell Tontar that he would have much more control of the flying glider if he were to remain prone.
Of course when you pull the stuff you do it makes it hard for other people to take away anything of value they might use to lower the levels of death and destruction in this sport - but lowering the levels of death and destruction in this sport has never been particularly high on your list of priorities.
You insult yourself each time you insult others.
Guess that makes me one of this sport's major motherfuckers, don't it?
Just can't resist the urge to turn a hookin failure discussion into "backups are unnecessary" rant can you?
Allen Sparks - 2007/10/25 23:52:52 UTC
Evergreen, Colorado
Nicely said ... I really like the economy of words ... Thanks Jim.
'Spark
Guess I'm never gonna have the levels of respect and admiration enjoyed by true icons of the sport like Jim Rooney, Davis Straub, or Allen Sparks. Oh well, I'll guess just hafta figure out some way to live with myself.
Someone should tell Tontar that he would have much more control of the flying glider if he were to remain prone.
Nah, I think that going upright to the downtubes can be an excellent way to take a glider outside of the limitations described in the owner's manual.
Wills Wing - 2007/02
T2 144, 154
Owner / Service Manual
Flight operation of the T2 should be limited to non aerobatic maneuvers; those in which the pitch angle will not exceed 30 degrees nose up or nose down from the horizon, and the bank angle will not exceed 60 degrees. The T2 can be induced to spin at any VG setting. At VG settings of less than 50% (VG middle or looser) the T2 is moderately resistant to spinning, and has spin and spin recovery characteristics that are typical for other Wills Wing high performance flex wing gliders. At VG settings greater than 50% (VGM to VG full tight), the T2 becomes progressively and rapidly more susceptible to spinning, and the spin characteristics and spin recovery characteristics become markedly more extreme. In the most extreme case, a spin entry at VG full tight (VGT), initiated by a rapid pitch up to a significantly nose high attitude, the spin response will be a very sudden and abrupt spin with a very high rotation rate and a tendency towards a very nose down attitude.
Any spin and/or the recovery from the spin involves a significant possibility of a total loss of control of the glider, including in flight inversion and possible structural failure. The probability of this result increases with the abruptness of the spin entry, the abruptness of the spin recovery, and the percentage of VG that is on when the spin is performed.
Recovery from a spin requires unstalling of the wing, and it is therefore critically important that in the event of a spin, no application of nose up pitch control be held. The T2 will tend to recover from a spin once control pressures are relaxed.
To recover from a spin, move to the center of the control bar and gently pull in to position the basetube below your shoulders. Do not pull in rapidly and do not "stuff" the bar. As the nose lowers and the angle of attack is reduced, the stall will be broken and the spin will stop.
In an aggravated spin, be prepared for the nose to pitch down significantly, and for the glider to accelerate to a high speed during the resulting dive. Ease the control bar out gently to recover to level flight. Recognize that such recovery will consume significant altitude, and will result in the glider assuming an unpredictable heading and attitude.
Recovery from a spin at low altitude or in the vicinity of terrain or other aircraft may involve a flight trajectory, which intersects the terrain or another aircraft at a high rate of speed. In view of the unpredictable nature of spins and spin recovery, Wills Wing recommends that no attempt should ever be made to deliberately spin the glider.
The T2 provides the pilot with a high degree of pitch authority, in combination with a very low twist sail. As a result, it is possible to produce a very aggravated and severe stall, the recovery from which may involve very severe pitch down rotation, the pilot going weightless, and the glider recovering via an unpredictable trajectory with a significant altitude loss.
I'm just not all that convinced that taking a glider outside of the limitations described in the owner's manual is a really great idea.
I'm also not all that convinced that taking a glider outside of the limitations described in the owner's manual is a really great idea even when the owner's manual makes exceptions.
Therefore, aggravated stalls should not be induced except on landing flare. Due to the increased sharpness of the stall break and the reduced directional control available at tighter VG settings, flight within five mph of the minimum sustainable airspeed should be avoided at VG settings of tighter than VG middle, except in smooth air.
It's always seemed to me that we should be making very conservative control inputs during critical phases of flight.
Landing a hang glider, for various reasons, is not a simple thing.
Landing a hang glider on the wheels - which is the way God intended all fixed wing aircraft to be landed when he gave man the ability to fashion a wheel - is an extremely simple thing.
It is a skill.
It needs to be learned.
It is counter intuitive, and thus not something that you "just figure out".
Landing a hang glider involves approaching the ground at an unnatural speed... everything you "know"... every fiber in your body screams "NO!"
It takes time, practice, patients and understanding to work past this.
Sadly, few actually follow through on actually learning to land properly. They think they do, but they do not.
Ask yourself when the last time you whacked a glider.
Ask yourself if, when the last time you whacked, you:
- would have whacked if you had rolled it in; and
- were in an environment in which there would've been the slightest downside to rolling it in.
The last time your wheels touched the ground.
NOOO!!! For the love of God don't let the wheels touch the ground!!!
very light conditions at quest. me, paul, dustin, carl and jamie were going to fly out and back but not high enough so we flew around the patch. i worked small lift using carl's tips...he is english where conditions are weak, and is 2nd in world.
came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.
bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.
turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming. finally they got it done but then they had a hard time waking me back up. drugs were so wierd by the end i could not leave for hours, i'd just start bawling for no reason.
Stop that sucker on your feet no matter what the cost!
Ask yourself when the last time you ran out a landing was.
If it's less than a year ago... guess what?
Get fucked.
As a result, most hang glider pilots land badly.
Sorry guys, but you do.
Really? I'da thunk that with all the perfect students you've been putting into circulation showing everyone else how easy it is to do this right that everybody would find the ideas of having wheels on the basetube and keeping a spare downtube or two on hand would be patently absurd.
Most seem to gloss over the fact that landing a hang glider is a difficult task, especially at the onset, and fail to realize that this is perhaps one of the major reasons that PG can be more appealing.
Sorry again guys, but admitting that you have a problem is the first step to recovery.
Understanding that there's nothing wrong with yourself - that it's the idiot fucking sport that's the problem - is the first step to recovery. That one took me about 28 years.
For example... there was just a thread about the "perfect new hang glider" and what it would be... and there wasn't a word about landing characteristics. People actually believe that the Falcon is the standard to shoot for!?
Will this change?
I doubt it.
It's this way everywhere I've seen, so I have no reason to believe it won't continue.
It's sad.
But it is the way it is.
No. It won't ever change.
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
And I've been watching this bullshit three times as long as you have - motherfucker. So how 'bout we start getting real? How 'bout we start doing the safest possible landing for the given circumstances and stop practicing for boulder fields every time we come into Happy Acres putting greens?
And how 'bout we have a few discussions on why people who come down in boulder fields are threats to themselves, the sport, and the emergency response and health care systems?
I do encourage you to spend the time and actually learn to land well (and yes, it's not practice... you must know how first or else you're just practicing bad technique)
Just because someone else is happy to pound in from time to time, doesn't mean you need to be happy to do so.
It's a skill.
It can be learned.
It's not hard... after you know how.
Bullshit. You take take tens of thousands of people and have them rotating up, taking their hands off the controls, killing their speed ranges, holding the downtubes such that their arms are trapped behind them when the glider comes to a sudden stop, and focusing on their goddam flare timings instead of landing the fucking glider and you've got a bloodbath. And we've got a bloodbath.
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
Virtually every one of these occurs solely as a consequence of a totally unnecessary standup landing attempt. And virtually all of those people would've been just fine doing every landing of their careers on the wheels.
But what the hell, Jim... You just keep on clogging the forums with volumes of crap about how doable this is. I just can't get enough of the videos. They really help me get through to people in REAL aviation what a bunch of morons I'm dealing with.
pegasus - 2012/07/05 16:52:59 UTC
Central Valley, California
There is a time when a newbie has to use the basetube for the first time. Some pilots take to this naturally, to others this is an unnerving experience...
Great. Start people off with their hands on a pair of airframe elements not designed, intended, or suitable for controlling the glider...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Will this change?
I doubt it.
It's this way everywhere I've seen, so I have no reason to believe it won't continue.
It's sad.
But it is the way it is.
...solely to be configured for a stunt landing they'll never need or be able to pull off consistently enough to be safe and to most efficiently break their arms - and get them wired to be afraid of flying and landing it the way it's intended to be flown and controlled and...
Christian Thoreson - 2004/10
Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...
...is most safely and easily landed.
Somebody name another branch of aviation - or any other sport - that operates on a model at this level of insanity.
Show me the videos of people landing in anything other than wheel friendly environments.
Then show me the videos of people who haven't yet mastered the downtubes well enough to be permitted to touch the basetube landing in anything other than wheel friendly environments.
Then show me a video of someone doing a deliberate wheel or belly landing slamming a glider in...
Tad Eareckson wrote:Show me the videos of people landing in anything other than wheel friendly environments.
Other than Jonathan, most XC pilots that land in less than optimal lzs, do not video themselves landing.
Yes, you can cherrypick countless bad foot landings. People post them because they are exciting and get hits. There are infinitesimally more good foot landings that are made safely every day. Nobody puts these on youtube because they are boring and get no hits.
Good foot landing skills are a good technique to have in your flying skills bag. Good foot landing skills allow the pilot to land in lzs other than the mellow meadows.
