Releases

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25838
Aerotow in rough conditions

Saulius Guobužas - 2012/04/16 00:40:53 UTC
Utena, Lithuania

Hi guys, this time we tried to aerotow in turbulent conditions with side winds. Hope you like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu1MPb2zfxA

Jim Gaar - 2012/04/16 03:18:37 UTC

WooHoo ProTow with a mouth release! First time I get to see it in action!

So what was the problem with Antoine's video?

Saulius Guobužas - 2012/04/16 08:26:01 UTC

Mouth release works perfectly. Thanks for comments.

Jim Gaar - 2012/04/16 14:35:09 UTC

Do you have a good solid source for those mouth releases?

I would like to buy one.

Saulius Guobužas - 2012/04/16 17:59:26 UTC

Well, it has been made somewhere in Russia and I believe shipping to the USA would be difficulty, though I could ask about that. But I have blueprint of it, so if you want I could send that to you.

Jim Gaar - 2012/04/16 18:28:12 UTC

Any shipping info would be great. For instance I could send you cash and you could buy one and ship it to me?

I'm not skilled enough to build one but I would like to see any schematics that you have. I think this release could sell well in the US.

Thanks
Jim

Kinda makes ya wonder a bit why after a couple of decades of mainstream aerotowing that they've never been made available on any measurable level - don't it, Davis?

Jim Gaar - 2012/04/27 03:34:28 UTC

Sure it can bite you...

We adapt and fly on, lesson learned each time.
Weak-links break! They are supposed to...we are ready for that. It's what we do.

Fuck you.

Saulius Guobužas - 2012/04/16 18:28:12 UTC

This is my current mouthlock, it releases when you open your mouth.

From the link saerog will shortly reference:

http://www.e1.ru/fun/photo/view_album.php?id=32439

some much better photos of the release he's using:

http://www.e1.ru/fun/photo/view_album.php?id=32439&pic=2e5b047ac9c6b34d099d5e7722de6e6b&page=0#top

http://www.e1.ru/fun/photo/view_album.php?id=32439&pic=a39a4a3a18b44894abacb95af845160a&page=0#top

http://www.e1.ru/fun/photo/view_album.php?id=32439&pic=f4f7d6cc7a55305642c1f2a67bc68c8d&page=0#top

http://www.e1.ru/fun/photo/view_album.php?id=32439&pic=24cc1664f8fa310f14fcd6f438d37c01&page=0#top
http://www.e1.ru/fun/photo/view_pic.php/p/f4f7d6cc7a55305642c1f2a67bc68c8d/view.pic


http://www.e1.ru/fun/photo/view_album.php?id=32439&pic=acccea05c2c064ce38c706aa8f799ab4&page=0#top

Tomorrow I will find out whether it is possible to get more locks. If so I could send it to you.

Maybe you could send somebody over to get his diapers changed while you're at it.

Jim Gaar - 2012/04/16 20:12:14 UTC

That would be awesome!!!

I'll check around to see how many we might want to purchase at the same time.
Might just be one but I'm interested if you can get one or more.

Thanks

Saulius Guobužas - 2012/04/16 20:32:33 UTC

I will find out that tomorrow.

Davis Straub - 2012/04/16 21:46:05 UTC
Rob Kells Meet, Florida Ridge

All the Russian pilots here at the Rob Kells Meet have them.

They couldn't possibly be any good, Davis. If they were...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years...

...Quest Air would've perfected them by now. We're you able to make them see the light and set them up with any of your bent pin masterpieces?

Diev Hart - 2012/04/17 01:46:50 UTC

I would like one.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14663
Aerotow Incident

Diev Hart - 2009/12/02 06:45:13 UTC

I'm Tad...

..."well now if you had my mouth release this would have never even been an issue"...

The same goes for the finger string on the basetube release for that matter...

Fuck you again.

Saulius Guobužas - 2012/04/18 06:14:20 UTC

I asked my friend about these locks. He said he has no more, but he promised me to find supplier.

Jim Gaar - 2012/04/18 14:44:08 UTC

Thanks for looking as there is a need for this kind of release!

Yeah, Holly coulda really used that kind of release the better part of seven years ago. But her asshole "instructor" couldn't have been interested much less when a bit over seven years ago Steve Kinsley was down at Manquin trying to give them away.

Meantime how about yooz amerikan engineers come up with one of these do-dads?

Fuck you.

deltaman - 2012/04/27 01:02:56 UTC

Look at these Mouth Releases lighter, without wire, and therefore by far easier to store in the harness:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases

You can do it yourself or I can do it for you if you need (PM)..


or

Hope you can get some of these into circulation on this side of the Atlantic as well.

Jim Gaar - 2012/04/27 03:19:35 UTC

Hmm very interesting...

How much head tilt do you think it takes?

Get fucked. Here's what you said the last time he tried to show this stuff to you:

Anything to keep the hands on the CB!!

deltaman - 2012/04/27 08:34:30 UTC

Read all here:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527

What makes you think he's learned to read in the past month and a half?

Saulius Guobužas - 2012/04/27 11:26:17 UTC

Here's the original photos from the guy that makes them:

http://www.e1.ru/fun/photo/view_album.php?id=32439

That's his info:
21073@mail.ru
Name is Aleksandr Kaluzhin.

Haven't been in touch with him for a while so not sure what is the situation. Back then he charged $55 for one with shipping to Europe if you bought 6 pcs.

Also I sold one to Chad May. He's from hg.org. Here's his report:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21242

Alan Deikman - 2012/04/27 16:50:32 UTC
Fremont, California

I never saw a mouth-release before. From watching just the video I thought that he had a weak-link break.

No, that was Davis demonstrating once again just how much a single loop of Cortland 130 pound Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line placed at one end of a shoulder bridle improves the safety of aerotowing.

One question - I only see an attach point to the harness - do these tow setups not use an attach point to the keel of the glider? Doesn't this make the pitch pressure difficult?

Butchering the speed range is the problem with the potential to get you killed - but nobody talks much about that.

Saulius Guobužas - 2012/04/27 20:05:28 UTC

Towing rope is attached to chest only. I didn't try towing setup with keel attached to chest, for me it is not hard to keep pitch in good levels, you just need to control it.

So somebody explain to me again why Wills Wing isn't cranking these things out.

[deltaman]

Tad,
As you know I built the 2 types of remote releases ..but don't already test them in action.
By looking AT pics and vids I observe that length between head and release can vary especially during takeoff or turbulences and it could be hard to manage with the lanyard without actuate.
The russian style with the wire allow that, and allow foot launch too when it becomes really necessary.
What do you think ?

[Tad Eareckson]

Takeoff and turbulence are nonissues - and, of course, if it's not turbulent on tow it's not worth towing. The Four-String has tons problem free of mileage on it and that's the one with the most critical play issue. And these releases are only important for the first two hundred feet or so anyway and I always spit out the Four-String Trigger Line after I'm clear.

Because of the Four-String's critical Trigger Line length I wouldn't consider it for foot launching - although, if you wanted to build one with some extra length, it's probably doable.

The Remote Barrel wouldn't be a bad idea because the Lanyard length is completely non critical and you can quickly and easily eat and spit out line to adjust play.

But, yeah, the Russian cable lanyard release is the better option for foot launching.

But I also think that foot launch aerotowing is a bad idea. If you have a surface that will allow a tug to take off you have a surface on which you can use a dolly. And dolly launching is about twenty times safer than foot launching. And if I had to choose between a dolly and a release I could blow without having to reach for anything I'd take the dolly. Better not to set yourself up for an emergency than have the ideal equipment to try to try to react to one.

[deltaman]

Takeoff and turbulence are nonissues

Pilots at take off or in turbulence often stand up by pushing on their base bar, so they change their pitch attitude and the length clamcleat-mouth.. that could be an untimely release factor..

I tested the release by loading it enough (on the ground), first I was surprised when I tight the lanyard to release not to see the release effective... Yes I thought what I did was enough and had forgotten to open my teeth right after, cause the tension on it was sensitively undectable.. It took time to understand and react.. Yes it was with 30kg+ not more, maybe with a load you will really experiment during an AT emergency the feeling and reaction are different..

[Tad Eareckson]

Pilots at take off or in turbulence often stand up by pushing on their base bar...

- One has some latitude on the Trigger String. One can tilt his head down to keep the string from going taut.

- One can also not push himself up off of the basetube. That's not anything anyone needs to be doing anyway.

- Just pulling doesn't blow one off tow. If one accidentally arms the mechanism he's still on tow until he relaxes his bite.

- He can also spit out the string whenever he feels OK towing with the same safety margin as the other 99.99 percent of the one pointers out there use.

- I never experienced a problem with the Four-String when I was flying two point and using it as a secondary and Steve flew his all the time in one point and never reported an issue.

- One's probably not gonna have a lot of serious turbulence at dangerously low altitudes and if one starts experiencing dangerous turbulence at a dangerous altitude it might not be all that bad an idea to abort the tow anyway.

I tested the release...

Very few people will ever be in a situation in which which a they'll need the Four-String to stay out of the hospital or morgue (although that number's a lot higher than the one for people for whom a parachute will make a difference).

Yeah, I've considered that it's a little counterintuitive to release the string from between your teeth after uncleating it - but pulling the bar in to dive for the ground when it's rushing up at you in a low stall is EXTREMELY counterintuitive. We need to train ourselves how to react properly to emergency situations.

My thinking is that if a low level situation starts developing you should pull the Trigger String to uncleat it as you're fighting for control and then just relax your bite the instant you determine that staying on isn't a particularly good idea.

On a normal tow the Four-String will be feeling about 30 kilograms (twice what it takes to blow it) and in an emergency very likely a fair bit more.

From my experience with a couple of really nasty lockouts at altitude and reading accounts from other people I don't think there's any question that THE big delay issue is the time it takes your brain to kick in, start comprehending what's going on, and remembering what to do about it. And I feel pretty safe in saying that we're never gonna be able to cut that down.

But once you're in reaction mode, even if you don't release the string immediately after arming the mechanism I think you'll be processing feedback - like the string tension you're feeling and the fact that you're still on tow - so fast that the delay won't be significant.

Also... Although I don't like using the Four-String for non emergency situations because it gets burned a little each time, the world wouldn't end if you did a few practice releases at normal wave-off altitude - especially if you pull in to reduce tension first.

Or, hell, just make a trainer Four-String and use it all the time until it gets down to the strength at which it becomes the weak link.

[deltaman]

Something I don't understand..
4 strings mecanism is like 4 pulleys ? Why the ratio is not only 2*2*2*2 = 16 ?

[Tad Eareckson]

Yes, the multi-string releases ARE based upon the pulley simple machine principle.

BUT...

- Our "pulleys" are anything BUT frictionless. We're not talking wheels, axles, and ball bearings - we're talking about string being dragged over string. Do the math.

- Our pulleys have virtually no diameter - two millimeters. So it requires a lot of energy to overcome the stiffness of the leechline to bend it around those turns.

So you have three issues all being multiplied as you go downwind from the Bridle Link to your teeth:
- mechanical advantage
- friction
- stiffness / bending resistance

So the bad news is that your slack line performance goes to hell fast.

But the good news is that...

- We can still deal with a slack line situation pretty easily with one hand.

- We get a HUGE boost in load to actuation ratio without addition of complexity, structure, weight, or cost.

- Slack line situations are pretty easily avoided and/or dealt with if you have a halfway competent pilot at either end of the line and - statistically - they're nonissues.

P.S. If you rig up your Four-String on the kitchen table and play with it a little you'll easily see/feel and understand the friction and stiffness issues.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28211
Platform towing fatality in Leakey, Texas

Davis Straub - 2012/06/18 17:38:20 UTC

Following a lockout
Saturday. 4:40 PM. Sam Kellner operating the tow vehicle.
http://www.theleakeystaronline.com/news/fatal-hang-gliding-accident-at-leakey-airport/
Not a novice pilot, but didn't have a USHPA platform towing special skill check off and apparently no instructor supervision.

Nope, not a Novice. A Hang Three signed off by Sam on 2011/07/22 - whom some total moron appointed as an Observer.

Jim Gaar - 2012/06/18 20:43:35 UTC

Heart breaking news.
This really, really hurts, as I recently sold Sam a PL tow rig...
My thoughts and prayers go out to the pilots family and friends. I look forward to the report.
The NUMBER ONE rule when platform towing is that it's the "pilots" responsibility to get off tow if th
ere are ANY issues...DAMN!

Yeah Jim. But the problem is that if there ARE any major issues down where it matters...

Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09 15:50

Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude. We need a release that is held in the mouth. A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.

...you are fucked.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/06/18 21:58:25 UTC

The larger size picture of the wreckage is hard to look at - the angle is horrific.

Yep.

Brad Gryder - 2012/06/18 23:07:51 UTC

So sad. This spring flying has really taken a toll.
My prayers go out to Sam and the Leakey pilots.
Keep lookin' up.

Leakey PILOTS? I'm pretty sure Leakey never had any actual pilots and, even if you were just referring to people who fly hang gliders, I'm thinking you should be talking singular at this point - at best.

Marc Fink - 2012/06/19 01:03:12 UTC

shit.

You've never once in your entire goddam life missed an opportunity to sabotage a discussion about the kind of technology advancement which could've made a difference. So go fuck yourself.

NMERider - 2012/06/19 01:36:26 UTC

There's a short memorial to Terry Mason on FB:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Real-County-Leakey-Public-Library/254440947910040
The pilot had a brush with fate a year earlier:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post453.html#p453
Scroll down to the embedded quote regarding Terry Mason.
The crash scene photo appears to be an S2 155 and not a 145 squares, older, double surface as in the previously reported incident.
This is very sad.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=795
AL's Flight At Packsaddle 10-04-11

Terry Mason - 2011/12/01 19:55:00 UTC

Those of us who prefer to fly, will always wonder about the key board jocks, who frighten away new flyers with skitzoid horror stories of murder, and at the hands of friends who only wish to share the incomparable thrill of free flight. I'm reminded of Jonathan Livingston Seagull, striving against the ever present obstructionists. Thanks to Sam for limiting Our forum to FLYERS. See you soon Bob

Hey Terry...

- EVERYBODY *PREFERS* to fly. But in order for dumb air jocks to be able to fly you need a few responsible keyboard jocks to define the standards and procedures and design the equipment.

- I've NEVER frightened away any new flyers or tried to. My goal has always been educate them with a realistic assessment of the dangers of this sport and effective strategies for dealing with them. I've just never been very impressed by the assholes who run run the sport and attempt to fill the skies by downplaying and dismissing the dangers.

- Those schizoid horror stories of murder weren't SCHIZOID and weren't STORIES. They were DOCUMENTATION. Too bad you were never able to learn anything from them.

- People you think are your friends aren't always your friends and people you think are your enemies aren't always your enemies.

- Just wishing to share the incomparable thrill of free flight doesn't cut it in this game.

Good jobs, Sam and Bob. And good luck Building the US Hawks. The insurance companies should be real impressed with the fact that you've only killed one of your members in the one and five sixths years of its existence from a base of safely over six dozen names.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28211
Platform towing fatality in Leakey, Texas

Jim Gaar - 2012/06/19 05:21:39 UTC

Anyone know deltaman?

Aw c'mon, Jim. You've forgotten deltaman already?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=245006
LMFP release dysfunction

I would like to know more about this "STEVERELEASE".

Why?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Jim Gaar - 2011/07/14 15:40:13 UTC

In a litigious society like the U.S. it's all part of the game. If you don't like it, you just take your ball and go home...

This is the reality of the sport we love. "Always the student". Learn how to use it or don't. You just missed out on what every American pilot already knows from birth.

We assume risk every day. Sometimes with a LMFP release. Hope you get your issues ironed out. The classified section is ready if you don't.

What's it matter if a release works or not? If it's inaccessible and/or won't handle any kind if load you just put it up on eBay - same way you unload obsolete gliders.

Anyone?

Even me?

It's intended for two point aerotowing and poorly engineered.

To do the job right you'd design a truck tow emergency release with an electrical switch in your hand or teeth which would blow the bridle off at the hips. But...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13737
Moyes tow release and bridle

Jim Gaar - 2008/12/10 15:44:11 UTC

Total overkill.

Sorry Tad but with all due respect that's overkill by 20 miles. WAY too complicated. Too much potential maintenance, failure along the "route" of the mechanism. Good practice, knowledge and a lanyard type release are all you need. It's been proved over and over. Your stuff looks interesting, however it's just NOT practical for the sport overall...

...you wouldn't like something like that because it would be WAY too complicated.

So let's keep doing what we ALWAYS do...
- Wait until someone is killed in a low level lockout.
- Have some idiot half-assed discussion about better releases.
- Do absolutely nothing.
- Wait until someone else is killed in a low level lockout.
- Et cetera.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1069
Prayers and Thoughts - Leakey

curious - 2011/12/15 19:53:13 UTC

Prayers and Thoughts - Leakey
Our hearts, thoughts, and prayers go out to the SW Tx fliers in Leakey.

Great.

Please let folks know what can be done to support and help out.

- Use your hearts to motivate some actual thinking.
- Lose the goddam prayers. Newtonian physics doesn't give a rat's ass about them - one way or the other.
- Try to get the thinking done BEFORE someone is killed again.

When time permits in the future, a report so others can learn.

There will be ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to learn from this. Sam and Terry didn't invent a brand new way to get someone killed platform towing and nobody's ever done a single goddam thing after ANY platform disaster to make it any safer than it was when it started out over a quarter century ago.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
by Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

You've elected to ignore that message for over thirty years and if you were gonna start getting your shit together you'd be doing it now instead of praying and "thinking" while you wait for Sam to honor us with a "report".

God bless

Save it.

Sam Kellner - 2012/06/19 01:44:40 UTC

Thanks for starting the polite topic.

Fuckit. This polite topic should've been started Sunday morning.

Terry Mason was very opposed to running to the internet forums, with mostly speculation, when tragedy strikes us in the HG community.

Yeah. And look where that approach got him.

REAL pilots SPECULATE. Speculating about every possible scenario regarding every incident is what makes people good pilots and - amongst the top 0.01 percent of them - good designers.

His 65yrs of life and very very basic lifestyle was all about hang gliding.

Flying in the sport to the exclusion of understanding it.

It was off the roof at 6yr old, with a bedsheet and broomsticks.

And nothing else in the way of design or even bothering to understand design from that point on.

Efforts to locate any remaining family in Oklahoma have been unsuccessful thus far.
Terry worshiped with the Methodist congergation and sang in the choir.

And he worshipped in the hang gliding congregation and sang right along in tune with what it was doing as well.

Anyone who sees fit might send a donation in Terry's name.
Leakey United Methodist Church
PO Box 417
419 N Market
Leakey, Tx. 78873

Or send a donation to Antoine instead - if you want to decrease, rather than increase, the interval to the next one of these.

Thanks again.
Sam Kellner
Southwest Texas Hang Gliders
US Hawks Hang Gliding Assn.
Chapter #4

Thank you too, Sam. And do continue to keep us posted on the near misses you get away with on your "operation" so we can get a good feel for when the next one's gonna impact.

Asshole.