instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.westcoastsoaringclub.com/forumnew/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5959
Chelan Butte Dust Devil Blender....

West Coast Soaring Club

Martin Henry - 2010/07/08 04:50 UTC

Chelan Butte Dust Devil Blender...

Ooooh and next week they are going to fly Paragliders from the same launch... some with just two risers!

Hang Gliding on Chelan Butte
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FDJTApk5Hw
tamingthekat - 2010/07/06
dead
02-00007

04-00111

10-00518

20-00727

28-00828

47-01225

54-01511

76-03721


Seriously, for the record... one of the spectators knocked down during this incident broke nine ribs and a nose and sustained liver damage... and was in critical condition. Hope they get some mellow air for the comp.

Martin Henry - 2010/07/08 15:46 UTC

Second angle of the same incident:

GEDC0616.MOV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TolD-vfG6I
tamingthekat - 2010/07/07
dead

What pilots need to realize is the top of the Butte acts like a magnifying glass and is the focal point where the thermals finally break contact with the mountain. Devils forming on the surrounding slopes accumulate on the top. I believe this video was shot close to 3pm... a very bad time to be sitting around waiting to fly.

Thomas McEachryn - 2010/07/08 20:17 UTC
Mission, BC

Couldn't help but notice the very helpfull gentleman with the grandson? extending a warm helping hand to the injured ...unbelievable!!

Matt - 2010/07/08 20:30 UTC
Ocean Park, South Surrey, BC

The grandfather did exactly what he is supposed to do - keep his grandson away from a dangerous situation and prevent him from seeing someone with possible head injuries. There are enough other people around to help.

Damn Feathers - 2010/07/09 04:51 UTC

Couldn't help but notice the very helpfull gentleman with the grandson? extending a warm helping hand to the injured ...unbelievable!!

Yep, I gotta say, I was thinking the same thing. I guess it's hard to be critical without actually seeing the whole story - but I'm always amazed when I see clips of accident footage, just how many people stand and stare, long after any danger has passed.

Having spent a good bit of time @ that launch the last few years, that's pretty much par for the course - big dusties on launch every 10-15 minutes on a good day. Anybody who doesn't tie there stiffy down (there are rows of permanently placed cables in the set up area for this reason) prior to folding out their wings and setting up (or leaving a PG unpacked and unattended) is crazy. We saw a similar scene last year at the Classic where 4 guys held an HG down (it was actually tied down too) and the dusty had enough power to decisively bend the leading edge.

No to be argumentative ( ), but this footage does nothing to indicate this day is dangerous for PG's. The best days I've flown in Chelan have had dusties like that one cruising through launch regularly starting @ ~ 11pm, not to mention monsters all over the flats. As with HG's you just gotta be careful when your near the ground.

The nice thing is, when a dusty does have it's way with an unattended bag, it doesn't break by-standers bones!

annelies - 2010/07/13 15:01 UTC
Victoria

Hi Martin,
Its like you new what was coming.
Well, I think anyone who has flown Chelan in the heat of summer, on a paraglider, and had any sort of incident could have predicted...
Day two of a week long paraglider comp -
Two crashes and one reserve deployment - both crashes involved hospitalization and one an airlift...

Fly safe everyone.

Martin Henry - 2010/07/13 17:42 UTC

Annelies,

I'm way out of my league when it comes to having a knowledge based judgment as to "if" or "when" paraglider pilots can or should fly the Butte. I have thousands of hours on a hang but just recently passed my 100 hour mark on my PG. Along with having just completed an SIV, I do feel very comfortable admitting that the Butte is no place for me on a PG (mid day, when the place is full on). Perhaps late evening, on a no wind, stabilizing day I would be willing to spend some time, but I would want to be sure of what weather held in the cards.

The day of round two, US Nats. From my perspective (out on the flats and armed with all of the available forecasts) I thought it was a bit of an insane day to call a pg task. I flew my Rigid wing from the tow site east of Mansfield, there was a forecast that included wind and a -3 thermal index set @ 10,000+ feet. After my first climb I immediatly recorded SW 15-18mph. Over 7500ft this jumped up to 26mph. The air had a real edge to it.

I don't normally fly the flats when the wind is up, so I punched a headwind to Mansfield, climbed to 10,000, then punched further west to Toehey... I was not enjoying the flight so decided to run back to Mansfield.... time for a cold can of Busch.

On the ground winds gusted between 10-20 out of the SW. It was rough all the way to the ground.

Just after breaking down (and it took the assistance of two other pilots on the ground to help me break my big bird down) I saw a small wave of comp PG pilots arriving over Mansfield. I've got allot of respect for the pilots that fly these hot blade wings in this monster air but you've got to one hell of a pilot to being flying in these conditions. (seriously made me wonder if I was just a great big sissy on my rigid wing if there were paragliders flying?... when you get old you start thinking about flying tomorrow?)

Problem is, comps tend to drag lesser experienced pilots into the mix. Not really sure if this is the place to be learning and expanding your skills? (Kind of like trial by "fire"). This is a very big place. If you don't respect it.... well it can kill you (could put a damper on your future airtime).

As to some of the other comments above regarding the cow like behaviour of the tourists up on the Butte... First off, I can't recall any sort of warning sign that says it is a dangerous place. You really can't expect the "Pear People" to have any sort of a clue as to what is going on.

Worse, having them grazing around your wings and expecting the bovines to react correctly when things get exciting is not realistic. Case in point, one of the bystanders helping had his elderly mother up on the Butte to enjoy the view... she can been seen walking toward the spinning glider... oblivious to the danger. The bystander mentions in a email on the CBCC that his mother suffers from a minor level of dementia. They were all up on the Butte to enjoy what is a very public place. Unfortunately something bad took place and everybody found out what dangers lurk in the real world.

Of course, that's just the way "I" see it... perhaps Kelly is right when she says "I'm such a drama Queen"......

Cheers, Martin

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18037
Dust Devil from Hell

Holger Selover-Stephan - 2010/07/08 16:35:05 UTC
Portland, Oregon

From what I heard, a 58-yo bystander came to help holding down this glider and suffered seven broken ribs and a punctured lung. He was airlifted out and moved to ICU. A pilot received wire burns to his hand, needing stitches. Two others were knocked around, too.

There are tie-downs at Chelan Butte and this glider was tied down until the pilot removed them to move his glider to the launch.

Seriously, for the record... one of the spectators knocked down during this incident broke nine ribs and a nose and sustained liver damage... and was in critical condition.

He was a SPECTATOR? Sorry, MOTHERFUCKER, I missed the frame in which he was SPECTATING. All I saw was a guy doing everything possible and everything right to keep somebody else's six thousand dollar U2 from being destroyed - just like I would have.

Hope they get some mellow air for the comp.

Yeah Martin, that was my response too when I heard what happened to this guy. Sure hope they have a nice paragliding competition next week.

What pilots need to realize is the top of the Butte acts like a magnifying glass and is the focal point where the thermals finally break contact with the mountain.

Yeah. They know that big dusties blow through launch every ten to fifteen minutes on a good day but what they really need to realize is that the top of the butte acts like a magnifying glass and is the focal point where the thermals finally break contact with the mountain. If only they could understand that this sort of thing would never happen.

Fuckin' moron.

I believe this video was shot close to 3pm... a very bad time to be sitting around waiting to fly.

And an even worse time to be trying to help a total stranger save his glider.

As to some of the other comments above regarding the cow like behaviour of the tourists up on the Butte...

Yeah, let's hear your take on the cow like behavior of the TOURISTS up on the butte - you arrogant, brain dead, sociopathic piece o' shit.

First off, I can't recall any sort of warning sign that says it is a dangerous place.

Yeah, that was the problem, Martin. None of the stupid TOURISTS had any CLUE that that tornado chewing its way up the slope towards the gliders had any potential for danger whatsoever.

You really can't expect the "Pear People" to have any sort of a clue as to what is going on.

Fuck you.

Worse, having them grazing around your wings and expecting the bovines to react correctly when things get exciting is not realistic.

- You wanna talk stupid, oblivious, cud chewing, herd animals? Try hang checkers, Aussie Methodists, backup loopers, standup landers, 130 pound Greenspotters, and pin benders - fer starters.

- Wanna see some interesting herd behavior?
-- Declare a spot landing contest.
-- Put a stuff bag with a hundred bucks worth of goodies in it on top of a traffic cone at the finish line of a Flytec XC competition.

Case in point, one of the bystanders helping...

I'm having a little trouble with this concept of yours that someone HELPING can be labeled a BYSTANDER. Maybe if you pile into the LZ sometime and start bleeding to death you can look my way to see what a REAL bystander looks like.

...had his elderly mother up on the Butte to enjoy the view... she can been seen walking toward the spinning glider... oblivious to the danger. The bystander mentions in a email on the CBCC that his mother suffers from a minor level of dementia.

Yeah.

- The elderly mother with dementia who's very slowly approaching to twenty-five yards from and perpendicular to the track of a dust devil moving at a quarter mile an hour is a total moron.

- But the glider owner who runs for and grabs the control frame a second before the glider gets re-engulfed by the dust devil and gets spit out and slammed by the wing four seconds later is a quick thinking genius.

They were all up on the Butte to enjoy what is a very public place.

Yeah. And some of the public up on that very public place that afternoon didn't bring anything that could half kill and destroy the lives of any other of the public.

Unfortunately something bad took place and everybody found out what dangers lurk in the real world.

Yeah. Nobody had ANY idea what could happen when that dust devil hit that glider. Well, now we're all as smart as you are, Martin.

Toronto Sun - 2012/05/07

The association has named industry standards expert Martin Henry as the official investigator.

Just how long do you think it would take someone a bit slow on the uptake like Yours Truly to become a certified Industry Standards Expert? Asshole.
---
Stills collection:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post5929.html#p5929

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18037
Dust Devil from Hell

Jack Barth - 2010/07/08 15:36:39 UTC
Southern California

Ouch!

Been there, done something very similar. Not fun at all. Last year about five wings went inverted on launch. Year before four of us turned over of which I was one.

Year before two of us stupidly held down a Litespeed that had just landed during a mini tornado. Got some wire burns from that. Saved the glider, but thought I was going to die.

Holger Selover-Stephan - 2010/07/08 16:35:05 UTC
Portland, Oregon

From what I heard, a 58-yo bystander came to help holding down this glider and suffered seven broken ribs and a punctured lung. He was airlifted out and moved to ICU. A pilot received wire burns to his hand, needing stitches. Two others were knocked around, too.

There are tie-downs at Chelan Butte and this glider was tied down until the pilot removed them to move his glider to the launch.

sbrian2 - 2010/07/08 17:50:45 UTC

Anyone who's flown in the mountains in dry country has seen something similar - maybe not quite this extreme, or maybe even worse. I've seen glider carnage at Hull Mountain in California and many close calls...

Seems like a good topic for a safety discussion. Are there more recommendations than simply "hold onto the keel of your glider and pray"? Anyone out there change their setup and/or launch procedures when dust devils are around? Postpone your hook-in moment?

POSTPONE YOUR HOOK-IN MOMENT?!?!?!

You mean like get in your harness in the staging area and connect at the last moment on launch? What are you - nuts or something? If you do something that insane there's NO POSSIBLE WAY to establish that you'll be hooked in when you launch. (Anybody else notice how conspicuously silent all the Aussie Methodist shitheads become whenever a situation like this gets discussed?)

Assign a dust-devil spotter as a kind of early warning system?

Good luck.

Or say "Forget it" and don't even set up?

I don't have any better ideas but that ain't gonna happen. And - although with a hang glider the odds go way up - you don't need to be in, holding, or near one to get hurt or killed by a dust devil.

Is there a time when the conventional wisdom about holding onto the keel becomes just plain stupid, and "run like hell" starts to make more sense?

By the time it starts to make sense it may be too late.

John Wright - 2008/07/08 18:42:37 UTC
Carlsbad, California

http://knumbknuts.blogspot.com/2008_05_01_archive.html
KnumbKnuts' Hang Gliding Blog: May 2008

John Wright - 2008/05/02

Marshall was the killing fields as the winds switched from North to East and back and forth. My wing got tipped by the wind when it was on the basetube with the velcro still on the wings. Then, even with a good wireman, I got turtled by a dust devil at the launch point, as winds went from 5 mph East to 15 mph West in a matter of seconds.

This was the day that I saw a friend's brand new ATOS VR get thrown around.
A few weeks later, another wing got completely taken out on the way to Marshall launch. New sail needed.
Don't F around on switch days on Marshall Peak. Get the heck off the hill.

Holger Selover-Stephan - 2010/07/08 20:27:56 UTC

As for changes, I wish we would brief wuffos to stay clear of gliders that are in the grips of a dusty. Hurting bystanders is hurting our sport in several ways.

Look, ASSHOLE...

- I haven't heard a shred of evidence that this guy was a wuffo - not that that matters in the least one way or another.

- All I've heard and seen is that this guy acted - with the OBVIOUS blessings of the owner - to help keep the glider from being destroyed.

- NOBODY more than two or three minutes old needs to be briefed on the danger presented by a hang glider in the grips of a dust devil.

- THE FUCKIN' GLIDER WASN'T IN THE GRIPS OF THE FUCKIN' DUST DEVIL. This guy was one of three trying to keep it out of the grips of the fuckin' dust devil.

- I've never heard of a BYSTANDER being so much as scratched by the interaction of a dust devil and hang glider.

- This guy wasn't a BYSTANDER - dickhead.

- What the fuck do you mean "OUR" sport? My sport doesn't include scum sucking pieces o' shit like you. If I could donate two of your lungs to help fix the one he got punctured you'd have your head in the toilet and be trying to figure out how to evolve gills right now.

NMERider - 2010/07/08 20:53:45 UTC

For a moment I though you wrote: "Hurtling bystanders..." which sadly describes the spectator's trajectory.

If he had been a BYSTANDER or SPECTATOR he wouldn't have been hurtling on a trajectory.

Adi Branch - 2010/07/08 21:19:48 UTC
UK

Blimey..

Once it starts getting chucked around like that.. sod it, let go and leave the thing to its own devices... The glider might even come off better than had you not tried to wrestle it to the ground.

The dust devil contacts the wing at 0:01 and the nose plants at 0:06. And at that point NOTHING can change what's gonna happen next.

Dirk Morris - 2010/07/08 22:16:37 UTC
Bay Area

I was recently involved with a dust devil on launch and I know the feeling. I hope everyone is okay.

Everyone isn't. And this is the first time in ten posts on this thread that anyone has expressed anything resembling concern for this guy.

Those looked like some truly hard hits.

One of them sure was.

This video shows how truly powerless one can be...

What are you saying? That dust devils don't necessarily defer to one based upon what the card in his wallet says?

Steve Baran - 2010/07/09 16:04:11 UTC
Chattaroy

Yikes! On a dust devil day it's likely a good idea to wear one's helmet on launch at all times.

- ANY thermal day can become a dust devil day.
- They weren't on launch.
- A hang gliding helmet can roast your brain when you're not in a constant strong airflow.

That glider was spinning pretty darn quickly. Those it hit didn't even seem to slow it down much. If I wasn't in a hurry right now I'd try to figure the tip speeds @ 20 frames per second and a bit of glider span/circumference math. That would get in the ball park anyway.

That's OK. We all saw what this one was capable of doing.

JV-Joe - 2010/07/09 16:44:12 UTC
Bay Area

Do you guys think in a situation like that, that you should try and hold your glider down? Putting yourself in danger? Or just let it go and see what happens? I always try to live by the motto "___ is cheaper than surgery."

Yeah Joe. I'll bet you're one of those guys who always releases from tow at the first sign of trouble.

In hindsight this glider should've been abandoned.

But if we jump ship every time time a glider starts getting hit we're gonna trash a lot of planes and some of those are gonna gonna hit cars, other planes, powerlines, pets, and people in the process of the wreck.

JJ Coté - 2010/07/09 17:03:38 UTC
Lunenburg, Massachusetts

Just found out that this U2 is the glider of a friend of mine from New England. Word is that it may just need downtubes (though the guys who tried to hold it apparently need more repair work than that to their bodies...).

Hey JJ...

I don't think I've heard your anonymous friend saying anything to total assholes like Martin in defense of this guy who got his life destroyed trying to help him save the fuckin' glider. Of course - seeing as how he's a friend of yours - that doesn't surprise me in the least.

My friends managed to hold down the Sport 2 135 (although it didn't get as direct a hit from the dusty).

Good to know that your other two friends are of the same caliber of character as well.

NMERider - 2010/07/11 08:11:15 UTC

An interesting thing happened on Saturday. I had a 2:20 12.5 mile flight out into the desert from Blackhawk Mountain. Ten minutes after I landed, I was chatting with some passersby for directions to relay to my chase crew when I spotted a dust devil heading straight towards my unattended T2C 144. I did a quick sprint and thanks to this thread, I circled 'round the rear and grabbed the keel and raised it quickly just as the whole glider began to rattle and shake. I had the nose pointed about 20 degrees below level which would normally cause the sail to invert and the wings to flex downward. Instead the glider was trying to fly in spite of the large negative angle so I held the keel high for what seemed like a minute or longer.

After the dusty passed, the surface winds picked up and began gusting to perhaps 30 mph. Had it not been for this thread I would not have known about this simple and safe technique to stop a glider from possibly getting lifted.

aireout - 2010/07/26 00:02:10 UTC

I had a dusty attack my Falcon 195 on top of Merriam Crater. Five strong guys could not hold it down and I cleared them before someone got hurt. One guy was about to be thrown bodily into a vehicle. There was a compound fracture... the diver's LE whacking my truck. I don't know what else you could have done. You may not be able to hold it.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27793
Brain Injury to spectator at Chelan in 2010

Brian McMahon - 2012/05/22 20:49:49 UTC

So as I heard it, a spectator had not signed a waiver, was hit by a hang glider in the launch area, and as the rumor goes, now has or is claiming to have brain damage. The resulting lawsuit (which appears to have taken a long time to hatch) is supposedly one of main reasons we are now having problems with insurance. Anyone know if any of this is true?

Well no wonder site safety is now a big deal.

- Actually Brian...

I heard that when this SPECTATOR ran over to try to help brace that glider against the dust devil he actually DID sign a waiver - but it got sucked up before it could be secured. People spent days looking for it.

- And I'm sure he's faking the brain damage. Probably faked the nine broken ribs, punctured lung, liver damage, and broken nose as well.

Brian McMahon - 2012/05/22 22:02:57 UTC

It doesn't seem so outrageous to me that an unsecured wing thrown into a spectator that knows nothing of the danger would sue the owner of the unsecured wing, hence the USHPA.

He actually DID know the danger of the unsecured wing. That's why he went over and joined forces with the owner and a guy on the other wing to try to secure it.

It's an act of God to get hit with a stick from a dust devil, it's God+ when a manmade object starts whirling around.

Brian McMahon - 2012/05/23 03:36:18 UTC

There is no good answer for that Jaco, it depends on the site and facilities, but laying it down flat would work. Tie downs on the front and back might help, but I've had a dust devil hit me from behind while I was setting up. I was just trying to hook my nose wire when I realized that one of the wires was on the wrong side of the control bar. I had to disconnect the control bar and free the wire, then reconnect it. I had just reconnected it and was holding on to the nose wires when the dust devil hit me. It picked the glider up and flipped it over. The wires sliding through my hands instantly blistered both of them and several fingers.

Understand the danger of a dust devil hitting an unsecured wing now?

Anyone want to use thin unshielded wires after hearing that?

Talk to Bo. He's always looking for new challenges.

I now set up with gloves on, usually.

I was fortunate that it was a fairly fast moving dust devil and not very powerful, the damage was limited to my hands and one batten, which I was able to straighten out. There were several others setting up in the same area and they all knew what to do, no spectators.

Yeah, I'm sure the most clueless amongst them would've been head and shoulders above this totally useless jerk.

After seeing what happened in this video, spectators near a setup area that haven't signed a waiver should be kept away if there is a potential for dust devils.

After seeing what happened in this video and hearing the response from the assholes in the hang gliding community I think there's a real good case to be made for restricting hang gliders from Chelan Butte to light conditions during the first hour after sunrise and the last hour before sunset - Tuesday through Thursday, November through March.

I never really considered this type of a fluke accident as a real danger.

Yeah, who coulda POSSIBLE predicted that somebody trying to keep a hang glider from being demolished in a dust devil could sustain serious injuries.

I've been hit by many dust devils while waiting around on launch or during setup/breakdown. They are extremely common in Southern California during the summer. On a good day they are ripping off regularly and you can see the trails left behind in the tilled fields. We usually try to have someone act as a lookout when they are ripping off regularly. I don't know anything about Chelan, they might be rare there.

Oh. You use lookouts at your launches in Southern California but you never really considered this type of a fluke accident as a real danger. Right.

Brad Gryder - 2012/05/23 16:37:32 UTC

Lessons learned?

At many places where we launch, we don't own the land and we can't restrict free movement of the wuffos in any way. We can't build rebar wuffo cages or safety nets like NASCAR did.

Yeah, I heard that just before that dust devil hit all the pilots were screaming at him to get back - that the situation was just way too dangerous for anybody who wasn't a high time Hang Four a with Dust Devil signoff. But he was just too stupid and pigheaded to listen. So now we've got this ridiculous lawsuit on our hands.

We can't enforce waiver signatures onto the public, nor make 'em wear helmets.

And he should've realized that the situation was dangerous because the pilots trying to deal with it were all wearing helmets.

They just show up and move right in close.

Yeah, he just showed up and moved right in close. What a moron.

I guess all we can do is warn them...

We tried. But it just didn't do any good.

...and maybe tie our gliders down 'till it's time to launch. Some flight parks have nice strong anchored cables available for tying down. Maybe some mountain launches need the same.

The goddam glider WAS tied down but it WAS time to launch.

And lemme tell ya sumpin'...

- A SPECTATOR is someone who's interested in what we're doing. And when we're not flying these things ourselves every goddam one of us is a spectator.

- A WUFFO is someone who's REALLY interested in what we're doing. And they're the ones most likely to get into the sport.

- And anybody in hang gliding who ISN'T a wuffo is a brain dead piece of shit who's asking to get killed.

- And I owe a huge chunk of my flying career to spectators and wuffos who've stuffed battens, assisted in ground handling and maneuvering my glider to launch position, wired me off of dunes, slots, and ramps, dropped my car off in the valley, and fed me and given me rides after XC flights.

- And I don't owe a single goddam thing to 95 percent of the goddam card carrying sonsabitches who constitute the participants of this sport.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27793
Brain Injury to spectator at Chelan in 2010

Brad Gryder (Cloud Hopper) - 2012/05/28 15:21:16 UTC

Pain and Suffering.

Many lawyers would advise to pursue this, and they do. The largest awards are not to cover medical bills, but to redistribute wealth from deep pockets (or large pools) to the laywers. These lawyers love to ride a 'victim' that a jury will sympathize with.

USHGA's insurance pool is a magnet. Let's do our best to keep the iron-headed lawyers away from it by installing tie-down systems and other safety improvements.

Doug Doerfler - 2012/05/28 18:00:39 UTC

Mr. Hopper,
Ironically this happened at Chelan, where they have a very extensive cable tie down system.
The guy that got hit by the glider was not just a spectator but tried to help hold the glider down.

FINALLY.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26266
Please Take Your Landings Seriously!

Manta_Dreaming - 2012/06/02 07:12:09 UTC

I've heard that many times after such an accident pilots quit flying. Any thoughts on how often that's the case?

NMERider - 2012/06/02 08:17:03 UTC

I've met a few who broke the same arm a year or so later and then they quit. I think more pilots may quit after their friends get hurt. That may be a good reason to be vigilante with fiends.

[Steve Davy]

Jack Axaopoulos wrote:

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

Jackass must have been high when he wrote that. I'm sure he meant to say -

All posts or links about Davis Straub, Jim Rooney, Jack Axaopoulos or their material WILL BE IMMEDIATELY MOVED to the top of the index page. These people are poison to this sport and must be exposed for their extreme ignorance, lack of integrity and cowardice and should be humiliated in every possible way imaginable.

[Tad Eareckson]

And speaking of Davis on The Jack Show...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26429
Pro Tow vs Three Point

Davis Straub - 2012/06/26 00:06:02 UTC
Texas

Why is pro-tow sometimes thought of as single point towing...

And here I've been all this time wondering what asshole first decided to apply the term "pro tow" to one point.

...when it is clear to me that there are two points?

The pilot and what else?

Does this mean that towing from your keel or carabiner and your shoulders is a two point tow?

Yes, douchebag, splitting the tow tension between the pilot and glider has ALWAYS been referred to by people who AREN'T douchebags as two point.

There seems to actually be only one point that you are towed from, the end of the tow line, then the tow forces are split up to two or three places.

Pilot, glider, and what else?

If you towed from a single point on your harness (in the center, presumably)...

You mean like with the Koch Release they use for one point aerotowing in the UK?

...would that be a one point tow or half a point tow?

It would be a half point - 'cause only half the pilot would be being pulled.

Is this just an example of our failure to communicate?

Isn't that your primary mission in life Davis? To disrupt and sabotage productive communications to make it impossible for the morons you cultivate to have any chance of identifying you as the fraud you are?

hangster - 2012/06/26 01:57:27 UTC

There's a reason it's called a pro tow...

Yeah. Similar to the one by which tension is called pressure. Stupidity has never been seen as much of a downside in this sport.

...when you get down to it if you're not worried about winning comps it's best to use a gate release.

- So if you're using a "gate release"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu1MPb2zfxA

25-32016
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/14306846174_185f09082e_o.png


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png
12-22509

...there's no way you can be towing one point.

- So why don't we just refer to one and two point as "pro tow" and "gate release" and make the sport even more idiotic and thus stay with the trend?

- So if you ARE worried about winning comps it's OK to use dangerous equipment to get airborne.

- Can anybody think of another sport in which competition level participants use cheaper, crappier, more dangerous equipment than recreational participants?

- Yeah, the performance penalty for flying Wallaby, Quest, Lookout slap-on crap is freakin' huge.

- Build a good two point system into the glider and the performance penalty is just a bit more than that of a VG system.

- If we make two point towing mandatory then no competitor is disadvantaged.

- Oh right...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

Competition pilots would NEVER tolerate anyone dictating tow equipment standards to them.

- So what you're saying is that one point towing is more dangerous than two point and people are risking killing themselves to avoid putting cable into the airflow. Bull's-eye. Thank you.

Mike Lake - 2012/06/26 14:27:15 UTC

Surely, towing from the pilot only is one point and towing from the pilot and glider is two point, regardless of how you physically make the attachment(s).

Surely.

The context of this thread is how the forces are acting on your flight!

Yes.

Calling a two point three point and a one point two point is confusing and irrelevant unless the discussion is about cosmetics or construction.

A bit like having several suspension lines attached to your harness. If the context is drag then you might refer to a harness as having six lines (or whatever). If on the other hand the context is weight shift control then there is only one point that matters (the hang point).

Casey Cox - 2012/06/26 14:49:03 UTC

The reason I refer to pro-tow as single point is: on page 36 or Dennis Pagen's...

...and, to give credit where it's due, Bill Bryden's...

...book "Towing Aloft", he states and has a pic of single point bridle attached to the shoulders for aerotowing. I have never seen pro-towing in a manual and have only seen it on the internet.

Yep.

I not sure where I saw two point connection. But I think the reference for two point is having two connection points:

- one connection to harness (that splits to two palaces)...

Buckingham and Versailles.

...and one connection to keel. Dennis Pagen refers to as "V bridle" that has connection on keel and connection to harness. I guess I will now refer to two point tow as "V bridle".

There is a "V" bridle (as opposed to a "U" bridle) involved in one point towing. Call two point towing two point and don't let yourself be influenced by what all the assholes who run this sport are deciding to call things.
- tension / pressure
- angle of attack / pitch attitude
- hang check / hook-in check
- release / bridle
- release / weak link

Not the same.

I wish someone with more towing experience than I would/could expand on single point towing / pro-tow and the effects and stability of speed on tow.

- And I wish people like you would stop deferring to assholes with more towing experience and continue thinking for yourselves.

- What with all the highly qualified AT officials we have signing people off on their ratings how come we need people with more towing experience expanding on this issue? It ain't rocket science - what's so difficult to understand?

Davis Straub - 2012/06/26 15:57:09 UTC

So this is book learnin'?

Fuck you, Davis.

The bridle is connected to two shoulders, two points.

- Belonging to ONE pilot and incapable of being separated more than the few inches they are without taking the pilot out of the fucking equation.

- And they're not actually connected to the shoulders. They're connected to the centers of the bases of the shoulder straps which run inboard of the pilot's shoulders and outboard of his neck. And the separation is only about nine inches which is pretty freakin' insignificant.

- So if mounted the primary release on a bridle whose ends were secured to a bolt running horizontally through the trim point on the keel would I be towing four point?

- Somebody show me a bridle that...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313526097/


...ISN'T mounted at two points and DOESN'T form a V when it's loaded.

- A one point bridle routes all of the towline tension to the pilot and a two point bridle splits it between the pilot and glider.

The point of attachment to the tow line can move from side to side.

BULLSHIT. Despite the fact that you and all your shitheaded buddies can't conceive of the concept of using a one point bridle shorter than two feet, the point of attachment never shifts more than a few millimeters from dead center and if you fixed it at the center you'd never feel the difference.

There are obviously two physical points of attachment to the harness.

Yeah. To THE harness.

I use V-bridle and protow to differentiate.

Who gives a rat's ass what you use? What the fuck have you ever done for the sport that entitles you to redefine standard terms?

Seems like it is a matter of personal choice and a source of linguistic confusion.

Who gives a rat's ass what anything SEEMS LIKE to you?

I go with what is physically obvious.

Yeah.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

Right.

Mike Lake - 2012/06/26 18:58:02 UTC

Not all pilot attachment configurations are the same as you describe. Some are single point (and are seen as such).
As the concept of half a connection, as you point out, is nonsense. The confusion you mention only comes when the pilot connection is referred to as two point.
You tow from the pilot only or from the pilot and the glider. The connection arrangement is irrelevant.

Davis Straub - 2012/06/21 21:30:31 UTC

I've seen such an attachment (funny people in Europe use them, and I one owned one), but even it is still attached to the harness at two points.

If the Koch release were built into the harness - which it easily could be - would it be attached at two points?

But I would be willing to differentiate it from protow, by calling it a one point attachment, a protow two, and V-bridle, a three point. :-)

Get fucked.

Mike Lake - 2012/06/26 23:53:08 UTC

There are a few attachment methods that cannot be described as two point.
A webbing belt arrangement at the hip area for example is not two point unless it is very loose. Then it might be described as such.

Many mechanical releases use two webbing straps and two webbing loops. Is this four point?
To repeat myself, you tow the pilot or you tow the pilot and glider.
One point or two point respectively.
The source of the confusion (you mention) is due to straying from this simple definition for the sake of irrelevant cosmetic variations that have no bearing on the flying characteristics of the two tow methods.

michael170 - 2012/06/27 00:03:26 UTC
NorCal

Pilot + Glider = two point.
Pilot only = one point.

Robotham - 2012/05/04 17:08:56 UTC

I know your system works because I've done it for the last 28 years.
Unfortunately your procedure is too simple and logical for most people, they want elaborate procedures and endless reams of redundant equipment.

And likewise assholes like Davis can't stand it when the terminology is too simple and logical.

Davis Straub - 2012/06/27 02:29:26 UTC

It is a matter of personal preference and style.

Right Davis. Any asshole who wants can come along and define anything any way he wants to.

All cases can be argued without resolution.

Especially when you have Davis caliber shitheads in the conversation.

I don't use one point and two point and I have never heard it used any were where I have towed in the US or Australia.

And I've never heard the term "any were where".

It is protow or v-bridle.

Right.
- Only professionals tow one point.
- No professionals tow two point.
- Only amateurs tow tow point.
- No amateurs tow one point.
- Only two point bridles form Vs.

Asshole.

Your way of doing it makes sense to you and I'm happy for you. My way makes sense to me, and I'm happy for me.

Fuck you.

Jim Gaar - 2012/06/27 04:09:02 UTC

Specific to U2

OK, so on the Center of Mass "V" bridle 3 point release, where is everyone attaching the "top" connection to your WillsWing U2.

Carabiner?

Center of Mass "V" bridle...
Three point release...
One word WillsWing...

As if we didn't already have enough morons in the conversation.

Diev Hart - 2012/06/27 04:25:44 UTC

I leave my zipper open a bit (tape it shut if you can) and go to the keel and around it in back of the kingpost (ask an experienced pilot on site to hook you up).

Yeah.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8305999131/


Get an experienced pilot to do a really good job TAPING your zipper shut for you. And try to get him to show you how to properly velcro the brake lever to the downtube while you're at it.

Mike Lake - 2012/06/27 06:41:32 UTC

I'm sure we would all be happy using the terms Protow & V-bridle but the use of one point, two point is not exactly uncommon in the context of explaining what Protow & V-bridle are or do.

One and two point accurately describe what's going on with the glider. "Protow" and "V-bridle" tell one absolutely NOTHING.

It is not a matter of preference when one explanation could clearly lead to confusion.

A V-bridle, for example, by definition is a "V" configuration.
The term "V-bridle" describes very well a setup with a top and bottom 'leg', two points in fact just like a "V" and not three points as you are happy to call it.

Just saying that this is a source of confusion that is unnecessary and not a Tomato/Tomateo thing.

Davis Straub - 2012/06/27 13:24:35 UTC

This continues to be off topic, but I did start this branch.

I'm quite certain that like most people you are happy to find your way of doing or saying things superior to others.

I got news for ya, Davis...

http://ozreport.com/9.011
2005 Worlds

Davis Straub - 2005/01/13

Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube. He made it just outside the start circle.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

His way of doing and saying things IS superior to others.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

It's a wiring thing.

I am happy to know at least what you mean by your strange way of talking.

Wills Wing Articles About Hang Gliding and Paragliding

Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders
by Rob Kells

Discussion of locations and methods for attaching the upper tow line to a current production Wills Wing hang glider when aerotowing using a system with one attachment point at the pilot's shoulders and the other on the keel of the glider.

Got that Davis? ONE ATTACHMENT POINT AT THE PILOT'S SHOULDERS and THE OTHER on the keel of the glider. One plus one? Take your time.

My being from the colonies no doubt explains my attitude.

Nah. Your being a stupid, brain damaged, low life douchebag explains your attitude.

Mike Lake - 2012/06/27 14:54:24 UTC

Sorry, you lost me there old chap, but I'm sure somewhere you addressed the fact that a V bridle with three points is a bit silly. Or perhaps it was lost in translation.
Never mind time to move on.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28244
The Chris Zimmerman private flight park

Brad Gryder - 2012/06/24 12:25:49 UTC

The rules changed, and this is what we've been reduced to after the rules changed:
- Loss of aerodynamic controls on the tug = less safe.
- Loss of tail surfaces that prevent tumbling = less safe.
- Mass reduction on the front end of the rope = less safe.
- Reduced power and reduced climb rate = less safe.

In other words...

The front end of the string is looking a lot like the back end of the string. Pretty terrifying, isn't it?

Of course, the other solution is to bite the expensive bullet and go with the registered Dragonfly piloted by a PPL. Many of the Dragonflies that are still flying outside of the major flight parks are now being piloted by Private Pilots who are less familiar with the Dragonfly than the previous tug crews were. Yeah, they meet all the legal criteria and everything looks good on the surface, but they're generally less safe than the old school HG pilot turned tug pilot used to be.

What's the data that supports that statement? Cite me an example of a tug or glider crashed because the driver didn't have a hang gliding background.

He has to take off and not outclimb the glider and it's nice if he can make some occasional efforts to help it out by maneuvering in front of it and/or adjusting his speed. So what makes someone with a hang gliding background any better qualified to make a safer tow?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

How could you possibly find a MORE dangerous tug driver to get behind than that asshole?

The HG pilot has to look harder, beg more, then pay more money for a tow that's less safe than before. All thanks to government regulation.

Yeah. He does. But that pales in comparison to the costs of:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

- standard aerotow weak links;

miguel - 2012/05/31 22:57:42 UTC

The glider had a bicycle handle release. When it came time to release, it would not release and in fighting with it, it came loose on the downtube, rotating around it. Fighting with it put the glider in the beginnings of lockout so I flew the glider.

Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

- Industry Standard releases;

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

Bill Bryden - 1999/06

During the tug's roll-out for the second launch attempt, the tug pilot observed the glider clear the runway dust and then begin a left bank with no immediate correction. At that point he noticed that the launch cart was hanging below the glider and immediately released his end of the 240 foot towline. The tug never left the ground and tug pilot watched the glider continue a hard bank to the left achieving an altitude of approximately 25 feet. Impact was on the left wing and then the nose of the glider.

- tug drivers who make good decisions in the interest of our safety.

The Part 103 tugs are ok, but I hope all pilots (on both ends of the rope) are aware of the increased risks.

- Nobody in hang glider aerotowing has ever been so much as scratched as consequence of following government regulations.

- No tug has ever been so much as scratched by a hang glider.

- Tons of hang gliders have been crashed, mangled, killed by:
-- ignoring:
--- FAA regulations
--- USHGA regulations
-- following:
--- USHGA regulations
--- Flight Park Mafia regulations
-- tug drivers making good decisions in the interest of their safety

So before you start whining about the FAA how 'bout doing what you can to clean up some of the crap the hang gliding establishment is doing to the guys on the back ends of the strings?

By the way and speaking of...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.

...reduced power and climb rates...

I don't believe I've heard you comment on any of the bullshit Tracy and Lisa shoveled into the June issue of the magazine.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28244
The Chris Zimmerman private flight park

Brad Gryder - 2012/06/26 21:36:46 UTC

You think you're excited now, just wait 'till the first time you have some falcoon drivin' Bozo try to lock out on you, but you feel obligated to "assist" him, and then "POW!" you go from having the trike's basebar almost out at the nose strut to now having it pulled into your chest but you're now almost vertical and fixing to tail slide or loop, depending on how you've behaved on the throttle. Now THAT's something to get excited about!

Horrors from the past. I hope we don't repeat them.

...just wait 'till the first time you have some falcoon drivin' Bozo try to lock out on you...

- Who qualified the falcoon drivin' bozo? Who signed his AT rating?

- Just how bad can the situation get anyway...

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2012/06/27

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

...if he's using a standard aerotow weak link?

...but you feel obligated to "assist" him...

That's your job. That's what you're getting paid for. You assist him just like he was a goddam Hang Five getting kicked around at a thousand feet.

...and then "POW!" you go from having the trike's basebar almost out at the nose strut to now having it pulled into your chest but you're now almost vertical and fixing to tail slide or loop, depending on how you've behaved on the throttle.

- But your first priority is the safety of your own plane.
- So you have an obligation to not put yourself in a situation in which something like that can happen.
- And if you allowed yourself to get in which something like that can happen then you fucked up.

Horrors from the past. I hope we don't repeat them.

And if you come out of it OK then maybe you should start asking yourself why you're towing some falcoon drivin' bozo trying to lock out on you. It always takes a minimum of two people to kill a towed glider.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26429
Pro Tow vs Three Point

Davis Straub - 2012/06/27 23:48:20 UTC

That was a bloody good joke on my part. Drier humor than even you Brits are used to I'd imagine.

Mike Lake - 2012/06/28 03:33:32 UTC

Sorry, I still didn't get the bit about you being from the colonies but I appreciate any attempt at humour, especially the dry stuff.

This is my attempt.

When I look out of my window I see lots of flat fields, therefor the Earth must be flat. I too go with what is physically obvious.
Those round Earth f******s don't know nuffin.

Davis Straub - 2012/06/28 04:52:47 UTC

Nice try. I once owned a Kiss. That was one dangerous glider.

Too bad it didn't kill you. I'd have been a major contributor to the PacAir Defense Fund.

Mike Lake - 2012/06/28 08:31:09 UTC

Yeah, I know. If I can just keep alive for a bit longer I'll be able to retire mine.
Didn't you once have a forum? Now that was one dangerous place.

(How am I doing?)

Fine. Always has been, always will be.

Davis Straub - 2012/06/28 19:52:09 UTC

Good.
I have a forum and it has been extremely active lately as we discuss Jim Rooney's essays on landing.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28168

How would anyone who isn't a registered member and hasn't yet been banned for exposing you as the stupid lying scumbag you are know? You locked it down to the public when the incompetence of you assholes was brought to light right after the Lenami Godinez-Avila fatality two months ago.

Mike Lake - 2012/06/28 21:45:35 UTC

Blimey! I didn't mean that dangerous.

Try reading his essays on failure to hook in and towing sometime.