Paul Hurless - 2012/02/21 03:50:21 UTC
Reno
I don't believe it's necessary for me to supplement my reference to Tad as an arrogant asshole with any arguments seeing as how he pretty much made them all on his own and now he's no longer here on the .org. What else would you call someone who offered numerous abusive attacks on anyone who dared to disagree with his views?
2012/02/21 13:11:20 UTC - Sam Kellner - 3 thumbs up
- The difference between the best tug pilot in the world and the worst tug pilot in the world isn't all that much. There's not a whole helluva lot to it. They tow you up, try to stay in front of and level with you while you try to stay behind and level with them, and try to dump you in thermal.Steven Leiler - 2012/07/14 00:58:28 UTC
Durham, Connecticut
We in New England are lucky to have one of the best tug pilots in the world in central Mass.
If you don't know who Rhett is you don't know the history of areotowing.
Crazy mad skills and a great guy, if I wasn't married--never-mind it's late and I've been drinking and can't go flying this weekend.
...BOTH ends of the bridle.Towing Aloft - 1998/01
I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!
Rhett's a moron.Davis Straub - 1999/06/06
During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
I told him that I would be happy to publish anything that he wrote about weaklinks, but I never received anything from him or anyone else at Quest.
A few weeks later I was speaking with Rhett Radford at Wallaby Ranch about weaklinks and the issue of more powerful engines, and he felt that stronger weaklinks (unlike those used at Wallaby or Quest) were needed. He suggested between five and ten pounds of additional breaking strength.
To compensate for the greater power of the 619 engine that Rhett has on his tug, he deliberately flew it at less than full power when taking off or in anything other than absolutely smooth conditions. He started doing this after he noticed that pilots towing behind his more powerful tug were experiencing increased weaklink breakage.
A number of the pilots at the US Nationals were using "strong links" after they became fed up with the problems there. These "strong links" were made with paraglider line and were meant to fool the ground crew into thinking that the pilot had a weaklink.
The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug. I assume that Bobby Bailey won't hear about the use of strong links at the US Nationals until he reads it here.
Avianonline Limited
Tow Releases for Hang Gliding and Aerotowing
Aerotow release
Great price! Does it work under load?£29.99
Simple! You just can't beat simple! None of this crap with strings and pulleys all over the place.Simple 'barrel' aerotow release.
Aerotow release
- Simple aerotow release.
And the harness attachment is simple too! Great! Does it work under load?Harness Attachment
- Simple harness attachment.
Easy to operate!Easy to operate
Right there within a few inches of Davis's hand...Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC
Bill Moyes argues that you should not have to move your hand from the base bar to release. That is because your natural inclination is to continue to hold onto the base bar in tough conditions and to try to fly the glider when you should be releasing.
I'm willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of my hand.
Yeah. It would hafta be. It's right there close to your center of gravity. And it's red so you can see it.Paul Tjaden - 2005/03/05 13:26:19 UTC
I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout because you have a Bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side) and they are much closer to your center of gravity. Reaching that handle way out to the side can be challenging in a hard turn. The Bailey is right there.
With a simple pull of the red body!- Release with a simple pull of red body.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
Hard to imagine what could be simpler.Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
And this is a design which has been constantly refined and perfected by such professionals as Bobby Bailey, Bo Hagewood, and Paul and...Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC
Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years...
...and Lauren Tjaden for nearly twenty years.Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Does it work under load?Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
Well yeah, you want light weight - VERY light weight. Does it work under load?Light weight
- Very light weight
No, not like those Koch chest crushers. Things are gonna be bad enough...Small
- Small and unlikely to cause injury to pilot on crash
USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first.
...WHEN you crash with one of these releases. You certainly wouldn't wanna have a chest crusher in front of you when you hit the ground like that.The Herald on Sunday - 2009/01/10
Hurt hang glider pilot joked bravely with friends after a crash landing, unaware that his injuries were fatal.
But he began losing consciousness as he awaited the arrival of paramedics.
Aucklander Stephen Elliot, 48, was taking part in the Forbes Flatland Hang Gliding Championship in Sydney last Saturday when he landed badly.
Elliot shattered four bones in his neck and damaged several blood vessels that supplied blood to the brain. He was flown to the Royal North Shore Hospital in Sydney and put into an induced coma but died on Monday.
Police said the Australian Transport Safety Bureau was investigating the accident.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3218Martin Henry - 2008/04/28 04:44:02 UTC
Several years back I took the time to load test a version made local, they were hit and miss when you started get over 200 pounds of force. More to do with the pin type and condition of the inside of the barrel. When you did get a direct load onto the release the barrel did not provide the best grip to allow you to overcome the friction created by the forces.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846Lauren Tjaden - 2008/05/04 20:12:07 UTC
I did try to hit it and failed to release one time.
It's obvious that a lot of thought went into that design.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC
Her hand slipped on the metal tube as she was expecting a light pull.
Really! How many? They'd make super gifts for a lot of people I know.In Stock
- Yes
- How short? Why that particular length? Something you thought out? Or something you just pulled out of your ass? Or something you just saw somebody else just pull out of his ass?Product Description
Barrel tow release
The simple barrel tow release is very simple to attach to harness by just looping through your harness tow loops.
It is used with a short length of none stretch line...
Tracy Tillman - 2012/06
Another factor is the size and material used for the pilot's V-bridle. A Spectra bridle has almost no stretch, so sharp, impact loads are transferred directly to the weak link, while a polypro bridle has a reasonable amount off stretch and can act as a shock absorber and reduce the intensity of the impact load.
Seems to me that with a none stretch line impact loads would be transferred directly to the weak link and the effect would be somewhat like an impact wrench on it. And I don't know if you've ever seen what happens to a weak link with an impact wrench on it - but it ain't pretty. Nothing you'd want your kids to see fer sure.Lisa Colletti - 2012/06
Without shock absorption, a Spectra bridle acts somewhat like an impact wrench on the weak link.
So how come we don't get to see this short length none stretch line with smooth splicing at each end which runs so easily through the ring at the end of the towline in the photos?...with smooth splicing at each end so as to run easily through the ring at the end of the tow line.
- "It is recommended" by WHOM?This forms an inverted 'V' shape with one end attached to each harness shoulder tow loop.
It is recommended that one harness attachment is made with a weaklink and the other with a tow release.
One of those 260 pound jobs which, based on several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county, has become the de facto standard because it works for most pilots and gliders and is usually near the USHPA recommendation of a nominal one G weak link for most pilots?Tracy Tillman - 2012/06
Based on several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county, the de facto standard has become use of a 260 lb. weak link made as a loop of 130 lb. green spot IGFA Dacron braided fishing line attached to one end of the pilot's V-bridle. It is a de facto standard, because it works for most pilots and gliders and is usually near the USHPA recommendation of a nominal 1G weak link for most pilots.
- Oh. So there IS some possibility of that none stretch line with the smooth splicing at each end not running easily through the tow ring after the weak link at the other end blows.Experienced pilots tend to use two tow releases so it possible to get rid of the tow line if it was to become in some why caught at the metal ring.
...'cause they've found out through EXPERIENCE that the more dangerous the situation the less likely the short length of none stretch line with the smooth splicing at each end is to run easily through the ring at the end of the tow line.Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC
Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
...but when Lois Preston starts soloing you put her up on crap like this.British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Technical Manual - 2003/04
TWO PLACE HANG GLIDERS: KEY SAFETY POINTS
On tow the Pilot in Command must have his hand actually on the release at all times. 'Near' the release is not close enough! When you have two hands completely full of locked-out glider, taking one off to go looking for the release guarantees that your situation is going to get worse before it gets better.
Where else? There's only one place you can put a weak link - on the end of the short length of none stretch line opposite the simple barrel release. And if you're an experienced pilot you use TWO barrel releases. I just can't follow this.Weak links. It is helpful for the pilot to be able to supply their own weak link in case there is a problem of a too strong weak link else where in the system.
Fer sure. And your BEST pilots, your world class competitor types, use REALLY light or weak links, often BOTH light AND weak weak links...(Good pilots use very light or weak weak links as high loads should not occur with a good tow.
http://ozreport.com/13.238Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 06:02:32 UTC
I was not the only one breaking weaklinks as it seemed for a while every third pilot was having this problem.
http://ozreport.com/9.011Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
http://ozreport.com/16.078Davis Straub - 2005/01/13
Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube. He made it just outside the start circle.
Davis Straub - 2012/04/18 15:02:09 UTC
Mitch Shipley (T2C 144) crashed at launch after a weak link break. He tried to stretch out the downwind leg and then drug a tip turning it around and took out his keel (at least).
...as high loads should not occur with a good tow. And you can't have a good tow in thermal conditions 'cause you get high loads in thermal conditions so you shouldn't be towing anyway. You should wait until about an hour or two before sunset when things smooth out to safe levels.Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
That would be ABSOLUTELY INSANE. Even if the beginner survived it's a no brainer that he'd kill the tug pilot before they cleared a hundred feet.Beginners might be tempted to use a heavy weak link after multiple weak link failures.
It's a total mystery why anyone would choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545This is extremely dangerous...
EXTREMELY dangerous!Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIGsgNFRWM...and it is highly recommended that you have your towing videoed and then correct the pilot error...
FROM *WHAT*??? - YOU OFF THE SCALE STUPID INCOMPETENT CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT PIGFUCKERS?...and do NOT change the weak link for a stronger one.)
Oh right. Hadn't thought of that. That would make the max towline tension allowed by a 260 pound standard aerotow weak link 520 pounds.It should be remembered that as the short line is doubled then a weak link of only half the strength is required in one side of the V.
And if you:Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
That would tear the wings right off the glider.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.
Gee, other than that it's PERFECT!!!Note: The only know short coming of this type of release is that it is more difficult to release in a line slack situation.
Just gotta avoid those slack line situations.Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
No way dude! Not simple, light weight, small, or cheap. And very likely to crush your chest when you crash.The spring loaded double line release used for winch towing is generally considered far quicker to release in a loose line situation.
- Simple 'barrel' aerotow release.
- Simple aerotow release.
- Simple harness attachment.
- Release with a simple pull of red body.
Pounds:- The simple barrel tow release is very simple to attach to harness by just looping through your harness tow loops.
- £29.99
Stephan Mentler - 2012/07/19 12:52:19 UTC
Pensacola
John Wiley Carlton
I just received a call from and was asked by Jonny Thompson, of KHK, to relay sad news regarding Wiley Carlton, KHK's tow plane pilot. Wiley died after being struck by a motor vehicle in the Outer Banks. He touched a great many hang glider pilots and was arguably one of the best tow plane pilots in our sport. For those of you who don't know, Wiley was one of our pioneers. He was very humble and one of a few unsung heroes who helped advance aerotowing of hang gliders. He was there among pioneers like Campbell Bowen, Russell Brown, Bobby Bailey, and others. He will be sorely missed by all who have had the privelege of knowing him.
Don't know if I ever crossed paths with him. I'm sorry. (Came pretty close to getting killed on that road myself one time carrying a trainer back to the shop after asking a student if the traffic was clear. Last time I made that mistake.)Wiley died after being struck by a motor vehicle in the Outer Banks.
Based on or manifested by what?He touched a great many hang glider pilots and was arguably one of the best tow plane pilots in our sport.
So sing. Tell us what he did to help advance aerotowing of hang gliders. Tell us how aerotowing has ADVANCED one freaking inch since Bobby accomplished this ASTOUNDING aeronautical engineering feat of modifying the Quicksilver design to allow it to fly slower and slapping on big control surfaces and a big Rotax engine and sending it up with a few potentially lethal design flaws.For those of you who don't know, Wiley was one of our pioneers. He was very humble and one of a few unsung heroes who helped advance aerotowing of hang gliders.
I can't begin to tell you how much that impresses me.He was there among pioneers like Campbell Bowen, Russell Brown, Bobby Bailey, and others.
And the advancement of the aerotowing of hang gliders will now almost certainly come to a screeching halt.He will be sorely missed by all who have had the privelege of knowing him.
Free spirited and adventurous. Just the sort of characteristics you want in someone involved in the advancement of the aerotowing of hang gliders.W89rnr - 2012/07/19 16:10:46 UTC
VCU, Richmond
Wiley was the most free-spirited and adventurous man I ever had the pleasure of knowing.
Walt
Yep, when you're developing a good tug you always wanna have a good test pilot with a good parachute for WHEN things fall apart in the air.Casey Cox - 2012/07/19 23:21:20 UTC
Eastern North Carolina
In honor of Wiley's memory, some facts about his life.
As a teen, Wiley spent his summers at the family vacation camper on Belle Isle, just a couple miles due north at the end of Currituck County Airport runway where he enjoyed water sports like surfing, sailing and windsurfing.
Wiley owned at different times a couple different planes, a sailplane, and various rc planes. He was the test pilot for the development of the Bailey Moyes Dragonfly Tug and had deployed the BRS once during the development and once later.
And while he and his friends were busy living life to the fullest three or four other people were working our asses off studying materials, building test rigs, developing equipment, and writing procedures to keep Dragonfly towees lives from being needlessly cut in half.Wiley towed at several different aero parks including: Wallaby, Lookout, Quest, KHK, and Seminole Glider Park. Wiley even crop dusted for a number of years before he decided the chemicals were too dangerous to be around. He lived at Kill Devil Hills during the summer while towing for KHK. Wiley kept a sailboat in Florida where he lived and sailed during the winter while towing at the Seminole Glider Park. Wiley was humble, kind, and lived life to the fullest.
EXACTLY the way did after Chris Bulger, Brad Anderson, Eric Aasletten, Frank Sauber, Bill Bennett, Mike Del Signore, Richard Graham, Jamie Alexander, Frank Spears, Rob Richardson, Debbie Young, Mike Haas, Jeremiah Thompson, Robin Strid, James Simpson, Steve Elliot, and Roy Messing got killed.Brad Gryder - 2012/07/20 15:04:38 UTC
Wiley will be missed.
He was a good pilot, and we loved to share flying stories when we'd get together.
He'd want us to move on, and enjoy life. He'd want us to find humor wherever we could, laugh a bit, and then go flying.
So being light made his control situation WORSE?One of my favorite "Wiley tales" is when an early model Dragonfly's control stick broke off in his hand. He was light, so even though he tried to keep control by reaching way down and grabbing the remaining nub, it just wasn't happening, and he was soon looping over Wallaby.
Too bad Keavy didn't go with that one. She coulda walked away and the Dragonfly wouldn't have been scrap metal.Malcolm wasn't happy with these aerobatics, but had no clue they were unintentional. Out of options, Wiley finally popped the 'chute.
Nah, no BFD if the back one snaps off. You've still got a student up front who can probably handle things well enough. Why bother?Because of Wiley, Dragonfly's now all have steel joysticks instead of aluminum (at least for the front pilot). Maybe it's time we make the rear ones steel also.
It probably won't matter when it does again.Mike Chevalier - 2003/09/15
Went towing today in Greeley and got one flight behind a turbo Dragonfly. Right after landing I heard a boom and looked up to see the tug coming down under a parachute. It deployed at about a thousand feet and landed in a cornfield. The tug was badly damaged but the pilot was unhurt, hard to believe seeing the damage. Fire and rescue responded and checked out the pilot.
The accident was caused by a weld failure of a aileron activator crank near the engine. A picture of the failed part is included. I was told that this was not the first time the part had failed. Dragonfly owners should check their planes for cracks or damage to this part.
The owner of the airpark and cornfield quickly brought in a combine and cut a swath through the corn, drove a flatbed truck in and retrieved the plane.
Yeah. We're laughing.We're laughing Wiley, even though we're sad you're gone.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
We're really good at laughing. Totally suck at fixing lethal problems - but really good at laughing.Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
http://ozreport.com/13.238Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
Somebody name something that Bobby and these Dragonfly pioneers have put up in the air that HASN'T fallen apart, jammed, become inaccessible, or popped in an emergency and killed someone.Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
I don't think there's a whole lot of motorists who come out second best in encounters with pedestrians and cyclists, Jonathan.NMERider - 2012/07/26 15:22:22 UTC
I found many of the comments on the OBX board to be sympathetic and detail just what a horrendous road (bypass) John had sadly crossed. At least two posters appeared to be taking their own frustrations out on John because at least one poster stated that he had stumbled before being struck and so this observation in the nation's CSI-TV infected mind was scientific evidence of inebriation. It sounds like there is a continuing problem with pedestrians and cyclists creating hazards for motorists and I can understand the frustrations.
http://www.obxconnection.com/outer-banks-forum/forum-thread.aspx?Thread=67257
Higher EDUCATION - 2011/09
MORE ABOUT AEROTOWING AND THE CONE OF SAFETY
by Drs. Lisa Colletti & Tracy Tillman
This is a follow-up to our June 2011 article on use of curriculum and our July 2011 article on how to get the aerotow (AT) rating, with a focus on learning more about out-of-position maneuvers and the cone of safety.
TRACY: You and I have received many forms of flight training and professional career training over the years. Is there anything you recall as being significant about those learning experiences?
LISA: Yes, two things. First: Getting thorough training pays off in the long run--not quick, cheap and superficial training. Second: Having an instructor or school that is well-organized and presents and follows a clear syllabus or curriculum makes the training more understandable, effective, and efficient [ref 1].
TRACY: It is human nature to look for deals and take advantage of opportunities to spend less time and money for flight training. We've tried that, and, in every case in our shared experience we feel we have received sub-standard training with cheap package deals and have ended up spending more time and money in the long run to become competent at that particular skill. Alternatively, you selected one of the best and most rigorous medical training programs for surgery in the country, Lisa, as I did for engineering, and there is no question that it paid off for us. We learned to take the same approach in flight training and looked for high quality. It is more fun and easier to learn skills from a thorough, well-designed training program than from a superficial one.
LISA: Yes. Do you think people really want to be treated by a surgeon or doctor who is not well trained or want to fly with an airline pilot who is not well trained?
TRACY: Of course not. But why do some people want to skimp on their flight training? Basically, it means that when you are flying solo, you are flying alone with someone (yourself) who is not well trained. Who would want to do that?
LISA: Some pilots, very unwisely, are willing to take that risk. However, a wise tug pilot or aerotow operator is not going to want to put himself or his operation at risk by towing an under-trained pilot and will require such a pilot to get more training at their site before they will tow any pilot with questionable skills.
TRACY: A recent article about the nature of pilots in the July 2011 issue of AOPA Pilot magazine [ref 2] stated: "Eighty percent of pilots believe themselves to be in the top twenty percent" and the reality is that half of us are below average."
LISA: Unfortunately, those students--whether above or below average--who tend to over-estimate their own skills and abilities think that a school or instructor is being thorough just to get more money from the student.
TRACY: Also, some people are naturally frugal, which exacerbates the problem of their paying for instruction.
LISA: Well, flight training is not the place to be overly frugal or superficial. It's important that the instructor takes some of the mystery out of the training program by presenting and explaining a well-constructed syllabus or curriculum to the student, so the student understands what needs to be learned and why.
TRACY: Advertisements for schools and instructors (or any product or service) cannot always be trusted; advertising is often more about selling the sizzle than the steak. Word of mouth is better, but it's not always reliable because of the rule of primacy [3]. Deals are great if you get high quality for less money, but you need to make sure you are getting high value and high quality. When looking for a good school or instructor, look at their curriculum. A thorough curriculum delivered by a good instructor is the steak--look for that, rather than the sizzle.
LISA: That brings us to why we are discussing the cone of safety this month--to provide a better, more thorough understanding of aerotow (AT) curriculum and how an AT curriculum should teach AT students to meet USHPA's AT rating requirements.
TRACY: First, let's look at the nature of aerotowing. Anyone who flies and/or tows both sailplanes and hang gliders knows that aerotowing is fundamentally the same for either one. Both systems (a) normally use the same length towrope, which is about 200 feet; (b) have releases and weak links at both the tug end and glider end of the towrope; and (c) use similar towing techniques for straight flight, turning flight, lockout prevention, and release.
LISA: Of course, there are some differences in overall weight and tow speed. But what's most important is that sailplanes are much more controllable on tow than hang gliders, because sailplanes have aerodynamic controls and tail surfaces at the end of a long fuselage. Flying-wing sailplanes are more sensitive in pitch control, but still offer more overall control on tow than hang gliders.
TRACY: Yet, until the recent past, the standards in the US for learning aerotow skills for sailplanes (which are easier to tow) have been much higher than for learning aerotow skills for hang gliders (which are more difficult to tow). The biggest recent improvement in USHPA's aerotow rating requirements has been the addition of tandem flight demonstration of out-of-position control on tow--specifically, flying the cross and diamond maneuvers within the cone of safety [refs 4,5].
LISA: The cross and diamond out-of-position maneuvers for hang gliders are akin to the box-the-wake maneuver [ref 6] used for sailplanes, but modified for hang gliders due to their lack of aerodynamic control.
TRACY: How long has the box-the-wake maneuver been used for sailplane aerotow training?
LISA: The earliest reference in print that we could find about it [ref 7] was before the birth of modern hang gliding, in the early 1960's. We spoke with some older sailplane pilots who said it was used long before that.
TRACY: People have been aerotowing gliders for over 80 years. Glider flying was most prevalent in Germany prior to WW II, primarily due to limitations on powered flight that was imposed upon them by the Versailles Treaty. Anton Fokker (designer of the WWI Fokker Triplane) proposed the idea of aerotowing during WWI [ref 8]. Gottlob Espenlaub (a 1921 hang glider pilot!) and Gerhard Feiseler (designer of the Feiseler Storch) performed numerous aerotow demonstrations in 1927 [ref 9]. Gunther Groenhoff flew a Fafnir glider (designed by Alexander Lippisch--who also designed the Me-l63 Komet flying wing fighter) 272 miles after an aerotow launch in 1931 [ref 10].
Most of Germany's military pilots at the start of WW II had previous glider flying experience as youngsters, prior to the war. A lot of them were pretty good at dead-stick landing their planes after getting shot down, rather than bailing out. Erich Hartmann (352 victories) force-landed 14 times, Heinz Bar (221 victories) was shot down 18 times, and Erich Rudorffer (224 victories) was shot down 16 times [ref 11]. All three survived the war.
LISA: The Germans were the first to use gliders to deploy soldiers for invasion. The Russians also used gliders during WWII, but they used them more for smaller-scale delivery of supplies and equipment to front lines or partisans than for large-scale deployment of soldiers for invasion [ref 12].
TRACY: And the British and US Army used gliders on quite a large scale in Europe for deployment of both personnel and equipment. According to Don Abbe, curator of the Silent Wings Museum, it was during this time that the US army developed very specific, standardized techniques for out-of-position tow training [ref 13]. The museum has original WWII glider pilot training manuals in its collection.
LISA: So standardized out-of-position tow training has been around for nearly seventy years, as a practical tool for training students to aerotow. It is amazing that it has only been required by USHPA for the last couple of years.
TRACY: Well, we and some other hang gliding aerotow schools have been teaching the cross and/or diamond or other out-of-position maneuvers for some years, but many others have not been teaching these skills, since it was not required by USHPA until recently.
LISA: If out-of-position maneuvers are such an important part of aerotow training, why do you think it was not required by USHPA long ago?
TRACY: Many hang glider pilots and instructors are or were not also sailplane pilots and did not know about out-of-position and other standard aerotowing training techniques. Because of that, much of the development of hang glider aerotowing has been a slow re-invention of the wheel. Also, as we previously mentioned, there is always pressure on instructors to lower standards, because of the frugality of some students and the nature of too many pilots to overestimate their own skills and abilities.
LISA: OK. So let's talk about the cone of safety.
TRACY: The cone of safety is a border around the normal, center tow position, which delineates the out-of-position point at which a lockout or loss of control will occur. By definition, loss of controllability on tow is considered a lockout. A lockout can occur from being too far from center, left or right, up or down, or diagonally.
In Figure 1, you can see that the center of the cone of safety, the "Sweet Spot," is directly behind the center of the plane, with the cone of safety (the yellow line) centered on the wheels of the tug, and both the wheels of the tug and the center of the cone of safety on the horizon.
LISA: Keeping the wheels of the tug (and the center of the cone of safety) on the horizon is a typical normal, center position for towing behind most Dragonflys. Normal tow position is dependent upon the tug design and climb rate of the tug. It is typical when towing behind trikes and lower-powered tugs to tow a bit higher, with the wing on the horizon.
TRACY: Here at Cloud 9, our tugs have nearly twice the horsepower and climb rate of other tugs. The most dangerous phase of aerotowing occurs when both the tug and glider are near the ground, so it is desirable to minimize the time we are near the ground. In our case, because of our high climb rate and climb angle, our normal tow position at Cloud 9 is for the hang glider to be a bit lower than shown in Figure 1, so the wheels of our tugs are somewhat above the horizon. If pilots are too high above the sweet spot on tow, they are closer to the upper border of the cone of safety, and pilots experience a significant reduction in climb rate on tow, nearly 200 feet per minute. For greater safety, moderate control bar and joystick pressure, reasonable towing airspeed, and better climb performance, pilots should tow in the sweet spot in the center of the cone of safety that is specific to the tug they are flying behind.
LISA: When teaching students to tow, we first have them work on learning up-and-down position control. We handle side-to-side control and have them focus on up-and-down position control. This is helpful, because it is less work load, less demanding, and less confusing for the student, so they can focus on learning that one specific skill.
TRACY: It is especially important to start with up-and-down position control, because some students, even experienced hang glider pilots, may exhibit a tendency to reverse control when initially learning to keep themselves in correct position on aerotow. It is very important for both instructors and their students to know that even though some experienced pilots may not reverse control in free-flight, they may reverse control when initially learning to follow the tug on aerotow.
LISA: Basically, we have them take control of vertical control, while we handle horizontal control, and have them just try to stay at the level of the sweet spot. Then, we have them slowly move a bit higher, relative to the tug, hold momentarily, then go back to the level of the sweet spot. We repeat that maneuver several times, going a bit higher each time, until they get to the highest point on the border of the cone of safety. Then we repeat the process, except we have the student go down and back up from the sweet spot to a low tow position and back to the sweet spot.
TRACY: Once the student can reasonably control the glider's vertical position, we take over up-and-down control and have them work in the same fashion to learn side-to-side position control, eventually reaching the far left and right positions on the border of the cone of safety.
LISA: Once the student pilots can reasonably handle vertical vs. horizontal position control (pitch and roll/yaw control) as separate actions on their own, we have them take over both vertical and horizontal position control simultaneously on their own. After they can reasonably keep the glider in the sweet spot completely on their own while controlling both axes of movement simultaneously, we begin to have them practice the entire cross maneuver.
TRACY: The cross maneuver begins at the sweet spot (see Figure 1). The first movement is to slowly climb to the high (12 o'clock) tow position on the border of the cone of safety and hold there for a second-or-so, before slowly moving back down to the sweet spot. The student must demonstrate simultaneous vertical and horizontal control by keeping the glider on the vertical centerline of the tug as they move up and down.
LISA: As you can see in Figure 2, the high (12 o'clock) position is shown with the glider and horizon at the top border of the cone of safety and the tug and center of the cone of safety below the horizon. This high point position must be pre-determined and practiced ahead of time by the tug pilot and instructor to know exactly where it should be for the particular tug that is being used for training.
If the glider gets too high, the tug may lose pitch authority and speed up to the point where the glider is going so fast the glider pilot cannot get lower or even hold the glider's position, thus locking out vertically. This is particularly dangerous for the tug pilot when near the ground, as the tug pilot can lose pitch authority and be driven into the ground. It is also more likely to happen when hang glider pilots use a pro-tow (shoulder-only) tow bridle. Students must be trained to release from tow if they get too high, outside of the vertical limit of the cone of safety.
Here at Cloud 9, the high tow position is actually with the wing of the tug on the horizon, because our normal sweet spot position is reached when the wheels of the tug are above the horizon.
TRACY: After slowly moving back down to the sweet spot, the student pilot slowly descends to the low (6 o'clock) tow position on the low border of the cone of safety and holds there for a second-or-so, before slowly moving back up to the sweet spot. Again, the students must demonstrate simultaneous vertical and horizontal control by keeping the glider on the vertical centerline of the tug as they move down and back up to the sweet spot.
LISA: As you can see in Figure 3, the low (6 o'clock) position is shown with the glider and horizon at the bottom border of the cone of safety and the tug and center of the cone of safety above the horizon. Like the high position, the low point position must be pre-determined and practiced ahead of time by the tug pilot and instructor to know where exactly it should be for the particular tug that is being used for training. The low tow position must be somewhere above the prop wash, prior to where either the hang glider or tug loses controllability. This is particularly dangerous for the hang glider pilot when near the ground, as the hang glider pilot can lose airspeed and controllability if he hits the prop wash near the ground and can be driven into the ground.
Here at Cloud 9, our low tow position is lower than what is shown in Figure 3, because our normal sweet spot position is located with the wheels of the tug above the horizon.
TRACY: After slowly moving back up to the sweet spot, the student pilot slowly slides left to the left extreme (9 o'clock) tow position on the left border of the cone of safety and holds there for a second-or-so before slowly moving back to the right, to the sweet spot. Again, the students must demonstrate simultaneous vertical and horizontal control by keeping the glider on the horizontal centerline of the tug as they move out to the left and back to the sweet spot.
LISA: As you can see in Figure 4, the left extreme (9 o clock) position is shown with the glider, tug wheels, and horizon at the horizontal center line of the cone of safety. Like the high and low extreme positions, the left extreme position must be pre-determined and practiced ahead of time by the tug pilot and instructor to know where exactly it should be for the particular tug that is being used for training.
The left extreme position must be somewhere before the student pilot will lose control of the glider and lockout to the left. Going to this position on the left border of the cone of safety gives students recognition of when a lockout may start and the ability to smoothly move the glider left and right with very little banking of the wing.
Students must be trained to release from tow if they get farther outside to the left, outside of the cone of safety. A glider can get quite far off to the side, as long as the wing is kept relatively level. Typically, when using a three-point tow bridle, the glider can get about 20 degrees off to the side of centerline without locking out [ref 14].
Here at Cloud 9, our extreme left tow position occurs when the hang glider pilot can line up the tail wheel of the tug with the right main wheel of the tug.
TRACY: After slowly sliding back to the right to the sweet spot and holding momentarily, the student pilot continues to slowly slide over to the right extreme (3 o'clock) tow position on the right border of the cone of safety and hold there for a second-or-so before slowly moving back to the left and back to the sweet spot.
Again, the student must demonstrate simultaneous vertical and horizontal control by keeping the glider on the horizontal centerline of the tug as they move out to the right and then back to the sweet spot.
LISA: As you can see in Figure 5, the extreme right (3 o'clock) position is shown with the glider, tug wheels, and horizon at the horizontal centerline of the cone of safety. Like the high and low and left extreme positions, the right extreme position must be pre-determined and practiced ahead of time by the tug pilot and instructor to know where exactly it should be for the particular tug that is being used for training. The right extreme position must be somewhere before the student pilot loses control of the glider and lockout to the right. Going to this position on the right border of the cone of safety gives students recognition of when a lockout may start on this side of the tug and the ability to smoothly move the glider right and left with very little banking of the wing. Students must be trained to release from tow if they get farther outside to the right, outside of the cone of safety.
Here at Cloud 9, our right extreme tow position is when the hang glider pilot can line up the tail wheel of the tug with the left main wheel of the tug.
TRACY: After students have mastered the cross maneuver and other basic tow skills, they are taught to perform the diamond maneuver. It is more difficult than the cross maneuver because the students must simultaneously move and control their position in two axes rather than one. The sweet spot, high and low, and left and right positions are the same as for the cross maneuver, on the border of the cone of safety.
LISA: The procedure consists of slowly rising from the sweet spot to the 12 o'clock position (see Figure 2) and holding for a second-or-two, then simultaneously moving down and to the right to the 3 o'clock position (see Figure 5) and holding for second or two, then simultaneously moving down and to the left to the 6 o'clock position (see Figure 3) and holding for a second or two, then moving up and to the left to the 9 o'clock position (see Figure 4) and holding for a second or two, then moving up and to the right, back up to the twelve o'clock position, see Figure 2) and holding for a second or two, before moving straight hack down to the sweet spot.
TRACY: This realistically gives the student pilot a feeling of how the glider feels at all positions around the cone of safety and how to precisely control and move the glider in two axes simultaneously, in order to get back to the sweet spot if they get knocked out of the normal sweet spot position by turbulence on tow.
LISA: Do you have any other general comments about doing these out-of-position maneuvers?
TRACY: Oh ya, you betcha, don'tcha know--gel?
LISA: You may be a cone-head, but it's obvious you're not from France. What foreign language is that?
TRACY: Well gosh-golly-darn-it, you know I'm from Minnesota....
LISA: You bet [ref 15].
TRACY: First, these out-of-position maneuvers must be performed in smooth air and with a tandem pilot/instructor and tug pilot who has experience flying these maneuvers. Second, the movement from point to point should be in a straight line, with a consistent slow speed that takes about five seconds to get from point to point and with a momentary hold at each point. Third, you may notice that the shape of the cone of safety is an oval; as long as the wings of the hang glider are kept relatively level, and a three-point bridle (not pro-tow) bridle is used, the hang glider can safely get farther off to the left or right side of the sweet spot, before locking out, than it can go high or low before locking out.
LISA: I'd like to add that the cone of safety is smaller when launching and near the ground. There is less room for error.
When launching, the pilot must rise from the cart to get above the prop wash, but not too high, so as to avoid pulling up the tail of the tug. Basically, when launching and climbing out, the hang glider should be at the same level as the tug, so both the tug and the hang glider are in the same wind gradient. When launching in wind, the wind speed near the ground is lower due to gradient, and the wind speed is higher farther above the ground due to gradient. Therefore, if the glider gets low on launch, the glider not only pulls the tail of the tug down, but the airspeed of the tug at its higher altitude may be significantly higher than the airspeed of the glider that is close to the ground. This can cause the tug to zoom up even higher and the glider to get stuck with low airspeed and stay in the prop wash of the tug.
TRACY: Conversely, if the hang glider gets too high on launch, it will zoom up into higher wind speed above the level of the tug and pull the tail of the tug up. This can quickly degenerate into a vertical lockout (especially with a pro-tow bridle), and drive the tug into the ground.
It is critical for the hang glider pilot to be at the same altitude as the tug (usually wing on the horizon) throughout the climb through the wind gradient, perhaps to 200 feet agl. After getting through the wind gradient and mechanical turbulence that is closer to the ground, the hang glider pilot can move into the normal sweet spot tow position.
Another very dangerous condition occurs when instruments or other hardware are placed in the middle of the control bar. These objects can get caught by the tow bridle or tow rope at launch, resulting in the glider getting pulled by the control bar and quickly zooming up or to the side, out of control and locking out, while lifting the tail of the tug and driving it into the ground. For the mutual safety of both the glider pilot and the tug pilot, instruments should be placed to the side, near the corner bracket--not in the center of the base tube--when aerotowing. Unfortunately, many mountain pilots do not fully appreciate the risk and deadly potential consequences of placing their instruments in the center of their control bar when towing. Tug pilots and aerotow operators must inform pilots about this danger and ask them to place their instruments and hardware to the side, near their corner bracket.
LISA: Another issue to address is correct position for turns. The easy procedure for making a turn is to point the nose of the hang glider at the outside wing of the tug during the turn. For example, if the tug turns to the left, the hang glider pilot should wait for the right wing tip to get in front of them and then follow the right wing tip through the turn, keeping the nose of the glider pointed to that right wing tip throughout the turn. However, the shape or the cone of safety changes for turns relative to straight flight, as it is more likely to lockout if the glider gets low and slow on the inside of the turn, or high and fast on the outside of the turn.
TRACY: One last thing I want to address is length of tow rope. A standard length is 200 feet. In hang gliding, some hang gliding aerotow operations may use 150-foot lines, because of a restricted takeoff area, or to speed up operations and to make it easier for the tug and glider to circle together in a thermal during the tow. Other places may use 250-foot lines to expand the size of the cone of safety and to help prevent lockouts on tow.
LISA: We use the standard 200 foot towline for regular solo tows and a 300 foot towline for tandems and initial solo tows. It is simple trig and physics--if the right and left angles before locking out on a 200-foot tow rope is 20 degrees [ref 14], then the distance in feet from center to the right or left edge of the cone of safety (and locking out) is about 70 feet.
If the towrope is 150 feet long, then the distance to lockout is only 50 feet (and time is quite short); whereas, if the towrope is 300 feet long, the distance to lockout is 100 feet (and time and distance is twice as long as a 150-foot rope). Likewise, the area of the cone of safety behind a 300-foot towrope is four times larger than if behind a 150-foot tow rope.
TRACY: Right. Using a longer towrope for training gives students more time to traverse the legs of the cross and diamond and to learn how to deal with a lockout and how to avoid a lockout. A 300-foot long towrope, relative to a 150-foot long towrope, will give students twice the amount of time to practice out-of-position maneuvers. Obviously, a longer towrope is safer for first solo pilots. A 300-foot long tow rope, relative to a 150-foot long rope, will give initial solo pilots twice the amount of time and distance (100 vs 50 feet to the side) to avoid/recover from a lockout situation.
LISA: A longer towrope is safer for the tandem instructor, too. It provides lockout prevention and puts more distance between the glider and the prop wash of the tug when launching. A heavier tandem glider will roll further on the ground before taking off and not climb as fast as a solo glider, so it is beneficial to have a longer tow rope that gives the tandem glider more time and distance to lift off and climb above the prop wash at launch.
TRACY: Otherwise, a standard 200-foot long towrope is good for towing experienced solo pilots, as it enables more controllable towing of solo pilots in rougher air, and presents a reasonable size for the cone of safety.
TRACY: You can view a simulation of the "cross" and "diamond" maneuvers used for tandem hang gliding aerotow instruction at:
http://ihanglide.com/aerotow/
produced by Dean Funk [ref 16]. We also have some air-to-air photos posted on Bob Grant's Skydog website [ref 17] that show the boundaries of the cone of safety while performing the "cross" maneuver.
Finally, we want to thank Trevor Gildersleeve for producing the diagrams displayed in this month's article.
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Figure 1: The Sweet Spot.
The Sweet (Center)
Figure 2: The High (12 o'clock) Position.
High Position (12 o'clock)
Figure 3: The Low (6 o'clock) Position.
Low Position (6 o'clock)
Figure 4: The Left (9 o'clock) Position.
Left Position (9 o'clock)
Figure 5: The Right (3 o'clock) Position.
Right Position (3 o'clock)
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REFERENCES
01. "Towline/Higher Education: How to Teach Better, Higher, Faster." by Lisa Colletti and Tracy Tillman, Hang Gliding and Paragliding magazine, June 2011, pp. 16-21:
https://www.ushpa.aero/member_magazine_current.asp
or
http://issuu.com/us_hang_gliding_paragliding/docs/1106_web?mode=embed&viewMode=presentation&layout=http%3A%2F%2Fskin.issuu.com%2Fv%2Flight%2Flayoutxml&showFlipBtn=true
02. "Unconventional Wisdom" by Doug Rozendaal. AOPA Pilot magazine, July 2011, p.25.
03. "Law of Primacy.":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_primacy_in_persuasion
04. "Higher Education: How to Get the USHPA Aerotow Rating." by Lisa Colletti and Tracy Tillman, Hang Gliding and Paragliding magazine, July 2011, pp. 20-25:
https://www.ushpa.aero/member_magazine_current.asp
or
http://issuu.com/us_hang_gliding_paragliding/docs/1101_web?mode=embed&viewMode=presentation&layout=http%3A%2F%2Fskin.issuu.com%2Fv%2Flight%2Flayoutxml&showFlipBtn=true
05. "Standard Operating Procedures of the USHPA": SOP 12-02.12(A.5),
https://www.ushpa.aero/documents/SOP/ushpa_sop_book.pdf
06. "Boxing the Wake." In "Glider Flying Handbook" by FAA, 2003, pp. 7-10,11:
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/glider_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-13.pdf
07. Online Soaring magazine archive:
http://ssa.org/magazine/archive/
08. "Fokker - Between the Wars.":
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/fokker-2.htm
09. "Gottlob Espenlaub.":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlob_Espenlaub
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Espenlaub_1921_hangglider.jpg
10. "Fafnir (a mythical dragon)."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/18019283/Fafnir-glider-history
11. "Tailview: 2,500 Kills" by Barrett Tillman. Flight Journal magazine, German Fighters collectors edition, Winter 2011, p. 90
12. "Antonov A-7 Glider."
http://www.modelingmadness.com/review/allies/ussr/attarda7.htm
13. Personal communication with Don Abbe, curator of the Silent Wings Museum, Lubbock, Texas.
http://www.silentwingsmuseum.com/
14. "Towing Aloft." by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden.
Figure 8-12: Maximum Deviation Angle, p.320. Available from USHPA:
http://www.ushpa.aero/store/
15. "How to Talk Minnesotan." by Howard Mohr, 1981. Penguin Books.
16. "IHangglide's Aerotow Maneuver Simulation." by Dean Funk, 2010:
http://ihanglide.com/aerotow/
17. "SkydogSports.com web site: Tandem Aerotowing Photo Page." by Bob Grant:
http://www.skydogsports.com/dfsc/tandem.htm
Mark Knight - 2011/02/10 02:06:57 UTC
Tempe
With the increase in Gasoline and other such nessesities to tugging. Is anyone thinking about raising tug rates? We have been charging 20.00 to 2000 feet for a long time and wondered what the going rates are around the USA. I would be interested in what everyone is charging for: Solo pilots. Tandem Pilots and Student/Tandem flights. Thanks
Eric Thorstenson - 2011/02/10 16:46:49 UTC
Wannabe Ranch Crew
Morton, Washington
Hey Mark and group,
We charge ten dollars per thousand feet and of course no one is getting rich doing this, however we have a hell of a lot of fun!
We have no plans to increase our rates for tows.
What I am more concerned about is USGHA's new requirement for the aerotow rating and having to do two tandems to show proficiency.
Not sure about everyone outside of the large flight parks but this has a HUGE impact on us smaller tow parks and what it will cost us to get people a rating. We have a hard time as it is and now this... not long after the private pilot issue. What's next?
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/10 17:14:22 UTC
Back in the Eighties we learned to fly on hills, put three-ring releases on our shoulders, hooked up behind Cosmos trikes, ran like hell, stuffed the bar for all we were worth, and figured it out on the way up. Wasn't the greatest way to do the job but it worked OK and I don't recall any necks getting broken as a consequence.
The big flight parks are gonna fight to the death against equipment standards which ground the kinda crap that got Shane Smith killed a couple of weeks ago but they don't seem to have any problem whatsoever encouraging bullshit regulations to help them gouge student pilots a little more.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/1149Mark Knight - 2011/02/10 19:57:25 UTC
Learn the facts.
You have no idea what happened.
Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/10 20:08:32 UTC
Hey Tad. It's a big country, there must be a bunch of small not-for-profit sailplane clubs that teach aerotowing who can't afford a two-place glider. It would seem that you are saying that, whether in hang gliding or sailplanes, all the clubs and schools that have two-place gliders use them just so they can gouge students rather than trying to provide good aerotow training.
You can really prove the bullshit part if you can share with us the curriculum or even the urls of the sailplane clubs in your area that teach students or experienced airplane pilots to aerotow sailplanes using only solo flights.
Anybody who is truly a good pilot, in any form of aviation, knows that the knowledge, skills, and judgement you have in your head, learned from thorough instruction from a good instructor with a good curriculum, are the best pieces of equipment you can fly with. Good equipment is important, the best equipment is a well-trained brain. The ironic thing about flight training is that it is the student who avoids getting thorough instruction because they are paranoid about getting gouged is actually self-gouging a chunk of knowledge they should have out of their own brain.
At our club, the minimum cost for an experienced hang glider pilot to learn and show they have the aerotowing skills needed get an aerotow rating per the regs, with two tandems to 2500 feet ($90 each) and three solo flights to 2500 feet ($20 each) is $180 + $60 = $240. That's about the cost of a hang gliding helmet. The bullshit part is saying that cost, relative to the cost of five solo-only flights, is too expensive.
Dave Scott - 2011/02/10 20:25:31 UTC
Actually up in the northwest, it's a bit more expensive.
Tow rating is $200, including tows and instruction.
Tandems are $125 each. So, it's actually closer to $450 for a tow rating in the northwest. That's if you can somehow convince them to do a tandem as the park is not tandem friendly and makes the tow much more dangerous for everyone, especially the tug pilot.
The thing you have to realize is, adding the tandem requirement to the mix really increased the danger for everyone. For certain flight parks it was safer without this tandem requirement, not even counting the increased costs. Not every flight park is Quest with unlimited room to bail out in an emergency situation. The latest rules are really sad for our sport, but I suppose something is better than nothing.
Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/10 20:35:43 UTC
How do the sailplane clubs do it in the northwest? Have they found dual flights for aerotow instruction more dangerous than solo flights for aerotow instuction? Explain why you think the situation for hang gliding aerotow instruction is different.
Dave Scott - 2011/02/10 20:53:22 UTC
The sailplane clubs do it with a tandem, they always have. I don't think you can compare them, it's apples to oranges.
The situation you have with hang gliding is... Couple a Dragonfly with a 582 engine, and you can tow fine with a single pilot and get a good climb rate, however with a Tandem you have a terrible climb rate. Now combine this terrible rate with an already small field and you have a situation that could lead to a death or serious injury of either party. All it takes is one engine out and you're done!
My thoughts are it's safer to NOT require a tandem in this situation.
So, I can already hear the argument on the regulators side. Just get a 912 engine and or a bigger field. Sure, that would solve it, but I think you will find that if that is where it has to go, then it will just be another tow park shutting down.
When I got my rating at this tow field, it was a hundred and fifty bucks, now it's going to be over four hundred bucks, if it's even possible at all now. It may be that anyone on the west coast will have to fly to Quest to get this done.
Rick Mullins - 2011/02/11 00:36:31 UTC
Did we have some kind of data that showed we needed this extra burden on our sport? Were new aerotow pilots having accidents? For some reason they weren't reported in the magazine.
In Ohio we started aero towing with the original Cosmos tug with the Fuji engine. We have been towing since the beginning. All the recent pilots have a lot of time scooter towing before we put them behind the tug. It has worked very well for us.
The only fatalities we have had was several years ago when our examiner was flying tandem with an instructor to give him a check ride so he could sign off aerotow. Two very experienced tow pilots.
I'm sorry, I don't agree that this new requirement was needed or on balance was worth the extra costs.
John Alden - 2011/02/11 05:32:25 UTC
The tragic accident in Ohio is a perfect example of why the new rules are ill conceived. Small field, low powered tug (582), nearly overloaded glider, student as pilot in command, near perfect flying conditions, this could happen again given the new rules. We should learn from history, not legislate repeating it.
Section D-5 of 12-02.12 of the USHPA Pilot Proficiency system is an attempt to make hang gliding look like the sailplane world. Well, we're not. And for the same reasons and more that hang glider pilots under this rule are not required to be "boxing the wake", hang glider pilots should not be required to fly tandem in order to earn a solo Aerotow rating.
All other solo skill signoffs are based on "witnessed tasks" and the aerotow signoff should be too. The skills demonstrated by an AT candidate in a tandem glider in smooth air do not necessarily reflect the skills needed to safely solo aerotow in midday conditions. That's what an aerotow rating should imply. Those are the skills expected of someone who hooks onto the towline with an AT rating.
To observers and instructors on the ground it is obvious who has achieved an acceptable level of aerotow proficiency and who still needs more practice. Tandem flights may help some pilots get over particular problems but the two tandem flight requirement to earn the rating is a bad idea.
Guess we kinda got off the tug rate topic. One thing is for sure. The rent is too damn high. But, it's all up from here.
Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/11 13:35:40 UTC
John, Rick, I know that you guys are still hurting from the sad day sixteen years ago. It is understandable why you may not believe in the value of a higher level of aerotow instruction via tandem, so that students are taught to handle being out of position, rather than learning it on their own or by accident.
Looking at data is a good idea. On average over the year, many safe aerotow tandem are conducted every day, many of them behind 582's. There have been tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands conducted since that tragic accident years ago. Malcomb Jones alone says he has done 40-50,000. We don't have exact data about how many tandem aerotow flights are conducted in the country, but we know it is significant. The question is, what is been done right so many times by so many people in so many places versus what went wrong that one time.
Fatalities versus safe flights are one piece of data. Another piece is accidents and injuries. We know that a number of hang gliding accidents and injuries occur in Ohio, Michigan, and the rest of the country every year. Much of it is unreported, but we know it happens. It is important to always try to make that number lower.
Another piece of data is the display of poor aerotowing skills. You may or may not get the number of visiting pilots in Ohio as we do who come from all across the country. About half of them tow OK, the other half have terrible skills, even though they got an AT rating someplace. It is not exact data, but I can tell you that there should not be so many pilots who blow launches, tow in the wrong position, oscillate, react slow to being out of position, overshoot when going back to position, break weak links, lock out, and then if they make it to the top of the tow, turn to the left instead of to the right.
This is all too common in hang gliding, and very uncommon in sailplanes. Why the difference--it is primarily because of an expectation of higher skills and better aerotow instruction. Part of it is that hang gliders are harder to tow and easier to lock out than sailplanes--the argument that hang glider pilots need a lower level of training and skills is not correct.
I definitely agree that if a club or site can not safely do tandems, they should not do tandems. But many can and do.
I hope that you guys have a good season, and wish you the best.
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/11 14:40:54 UTC
Mark,http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20529Learn the facts.
Shane Smith - RIPhttp://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660Mark Knight - 2011/01/17 23:59:32 UTC
I was not there, I can only tell you what I have been told.
He was scooter towing and using a barrel release.
The release bridle got caught in the weak link loop at the end of the tow line.
The rope was cut by the operator.
The rope went slack and he made a ninety degree turn away from the turnaround pulley and the rope caught something else on the ground causing lockout.
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?OK, then how 'bout sifting through these volumes of information and telling me why these guys were lying.Jeff Johnson - 2011/01/29 17:05:47 UTC
Was out there yesterday seen the setup spoke to an eyewitness.
Yes, Weak link (205? leach line loop) at the end of the tow line instead of a carabiner.
Pilot was using pro-tow with barrel release and bridle. He did at least one tow with the proper set up (Carabiner) other pilots were using a three ring release around the weak link without the carabiner.
The carabiner did not get put back on and his bridle was routed through the weak link on his last tow which jammed.
What happened after that ??Yeah, the reporting on these things is virtually always so pathetic that people seldom do. I even know of a hang gliding fatality that never even happened 'cause it never happened on the turf of a big commercial interest.You have no idea what happened.
Tracy,- Nah, this is more what I'm saying...It would seem that you are saying that, whether in hang gliding or sailplanes, all the clubs and schools that have two-place gliders use them just so they can gouge students rather than trying to provide good aerotow training.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=6911
Sunday flying at Florida ridge. -This kid had a goddam USHGA card with a goddam AT Special Skill stamp - but that wasn't what Florida Ridge was interested in getting out of his wallet.Axel Banchero - 2008/05/19 00:53:19 UTC
Miami Beach
Today I flew for the first time at the Florida Ridge.
Being a new pilot, I had to take more tandem flights because they will not let you fly until you show the staff you know how.
I wasn't expecting this because tandems mean more empty in your wallet, but then I understood that if you are new to a flying site, you must show your skills first for security reasons.
- Apologies to anyone here who might possibly be doing it right, but as far as I can gather by watching operations, talking to pilots, visiting websites, reading posts, seeing photos and videos, looking at equipment advertisements, and reviewing fatality reports, there's absolutely no such thing as good hang gliding aerotow training.The only thing thing I know or care about with respect to sailplane training is that I can go through a couple of hundred pages of the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook without seeing any trace of the kind of dangerous total crap like you've written on weak links and that it's illegal to buy some cheap junk release from some idiot like Davis and coat hanger it onto your plane.You can really prove the bullshit part if you can share with us the curriculum or even the urls of the sailplane clubs in your area that teach students or experienced airplane pilots to aerotow sailplanes using only solo flights.A truly good pilot understands theory. Hang glider towing isn't based on theory. It's based on a hypothesis - a bunch of untested bullshit assumptions that Donnell Hewett started putting into circulation thirty years ago. Therefore, since virtually no one understands the actual physics of hang glider towing there are virtually no truly good hang glider tow pilots - and a helluva lot of people like Jim Rooney.Anybody who is truly a good pilot...Bullshit....in any form of aviation, knows that the knowledge, skills, and judgement you have in your head, learned from thorough instruction from a good instructor with a good curriculum, are the best pieces of equipment you can fly with. Good equipment is important, the best equipment is a well-trained brain.
Take dumb twelve-year-old kid with no previous experience, give him five minutes of ground school and a good two point release, put him on a launch dolly, and hit the gas. He's probably gonna end up in much better shape than a Norwegian national champion who foot launches and winds up with a weak link tied to his piece of shit release and his well-trained brain all over the lining his helmet. In any case he won't end up any worse.
You get the equipment right FIRST and then you start talking about training. And to get equipment right you set STANDARDS. And there's absolutely nothing in the way of USHGA standards to preclude somebody from tomorrow going up with the exact same crap configuration that Shane was using and producing the exact same results. Of course if anybody on the goddam Towing Committee had bothered to give my Aerotowing Guidelines revision...
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/index.html
...a browse a couple of years ago and adopt it there would've been. But that ain't never gonna happen.He can get thorough aerotowing instruction like THIS:The ironic thing about flight training is that it is the student who avoids getting thorough instruction because they are paranoid about getting gouged is actually self-gouging a chunk of knowledge they should have out of their own brain.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-upThen it's virtually impossible to gouge that tumor out of whatever he had in the way of a brain to begin with.Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
Dave,Yeah. Send 'em to Quest.It may be that anyone on the west coast will have to fly to Quest to get this done.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!Great instruction, great equipment. Or Wings Over Wasatch - that's closer.Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
John Alden - 2011/02/11 15:41:36 UTC
Tracy, I think the biggest reason AT rated pilots sometimes demonstrate terrible AT skills is because they are not current, or not current aero towing the particular wing they're flying, or the conditions are more textured than what they're used to, or they are not properly focused, or maybe all they ever did was tow in smooth conditions on a Falcon type glider.
I'm not advocating a lower level of instruction, just questioning the wisdom of making tandem instruction a mandatory part of the process. We don't require tandem instruction for any other special skill or rating. I think there should be an alternative way to earn the AT rating.
If the present path to an AT rating is a minimum of two tandem and three solo tows why not have an alternate path that requires a minimum of ten solo tows, two of which are in midday conditions. We have an alternate method of satisfying the spot landing requirement, why not for the AT rating?
Joe Street - 2011/02/11 16:03:48 UTC
Tug Rates
Hi Mark;
A penny per foot has been the rate for ages in Ontario. I haven't heard any word from the boss that it is going to change despite fuel rates. What is more of a concern with fuel is the increasing amounts of alcohol that are being added and it being harder to know what is going in the tank. Especially a concern for those using premix with two stroke engines.
Rick Mullins - 2011/02/11 17:01:08 UTC
So your "data" is anecdotal in that the basis for this change was your observation of visiting pilots displaying poor aerotowing skills?
How did you come to the conclusion that this was caused by lack of tandem training, or that it will be fixed by tandem training?
How did you determine it was not caused by the reasons John listed; not current, lack of experience in midday, lack of experience towing that particular glider?
Who all was involved with this decision? Airpark operators whose bread and butter is tandem operation?
Do you have any experience transitioning pilots from scooter towing to aerotowing? How much? If not, how can you declare that unsuitable when we have years of doing just that with NO accidents. The vast majority of our first aerotows are completely without drama.
I seriously doubt you have had any Ohio pilots show up and display "poor towing skills". As an operator of a tow park with two high power tugs I'm sure you do lots of tandem tows, and I'm sure it's working very well, at a MUCH higher cost. But when the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems start looking like nails.
Mark Knight - 2011/02/11 17:08:53 UTC
I also have taught aero via transitioning from Scooter, and I think it works very well.
I have recommended to solo AT rated pilots to take a Tandem for a little instructional help. Every one of them has said it was invaluable to them.
On the other hand, I think the org is trying to figure out some kind of standard for teaching and training. The east coast scooter instruction is completely a different train of thought than we have out here. To believe a scooter tow should never more powerful than 50 cc and any higher than a wing span is ludicrous to me, but you tend to teach the way you were taught.
I also think that two methods should be acceptable.
Don't believe that the tow parks with powerful Dragonflies are sitting there looking at your wallet. It's not that way.
We do need to pay for the tugs or they will go away. When you own a business you cannot just do it for fun anymore.
Trust me that my other work has taken a large hit trying to support a Dragonfly.
No tow park owners or operators are getting rich off this. It's very hard to keep it going. I have huge respect for tow park operators that have managed how to keep it going for so many years and still put food on the table.
I can guarantee you money is not behind the AT rules.
Rick Mullins - 2011/02/11 17:59:24 UTC
I own a trike and have over fifteen years of towing experience. I know the money and time investments it takes to keep it running. I don't really believe that this decision was swayed by money, but I really want to know who the decision makers were and what was the basis for this.
Wouldn't you think the USHPA would have looked for some feedback from tow pilots before making this major of a change. Was ANYONE on this list contacted for information or feedback before this was dumped on us? No one that I know. I have towed many first time pilots and I get really upset when they put me in the position of having to decide if I should release them or not. I can tell you that it doesn't happen with our new pilots.
We are not sailplanes, and the USHPA is not the FAA. These new rules stink.
Dave Scott - 2011/02/11 18:21:19 UTC
So, was there some kind of FAA hammer required that made this towing tandem thing happen, or was this just our USHGA thinking we needed this? I'm sure everyone is wondering why, why, why and so far you have dodged this question by several of the posters. Yes I agree, they should not do tandems, which means there is now no place in the northwest to get a rating. I guess that does not matter to USHGA? You can make things totally safe and care bear all you want, but if there is no one left to fly, then what does it matter how safe something is?
Bottom line, this change only discourages tow ratings and prevents anyone but the biggest (for profit) parks from being successful. How long before Florida is the only place to get towed in the USA?
One thing maybe USHGA could do for us is to provide the members a list of tow parks in the country that CAN give tow ratings AFTER the latest change went into effect. We can then take a look at statistics from this change.
Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/11 22:19:09 UTC
I'll ask to have this issue added to the Towing Committee agenda for the upcoming BOD meeting.
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/11 22:25:47 UTC
Mark,
OK, I'll take that as I actually DID have the facts right and a REALLY GOOD idea what happened. Apology accepted.Nope. He was already AT rated. That ride - and clinic - was for Tandem ratings.The only fatalities we have had was several years ago when our examiner (Mike Del Signore) was flying tandem with an instructor (Bill Bennett) to give him a check ride so he could sign off aero tow.This makes it sound like Mike was some bozo going for his Hang Two. He was a goddam Four with eighteen years of hang gliding behind him. Bill had been an exhibition pilot at Grandfather Mountain. Both of these guys knew how to drive a glider without any help from anybody....student as pilot in command...Not really.Small field, low powered tug (582), nearly overloaded glider, student as pilot in command, near perfect flying conditions...David Perz
Conditions at launch were very smooth with basically no wind. Rollout on the cart seemed unusually long.Mark Nicolet
Mitigating factors include: a relatively high pressure altitude for flat land operations due to high temp and humidity...Yeah, we really SHOULD. But first we have to know what the actual history was and there's been so much total crap written about this crash that virtually no one does.We should learn from history...
Yeah, the tug was underpowered, there was no wind, it was hot and humid, the glider was heavily loaded - but none of that caused the crash.Bullshit. The glider wasn't a little low - the tug was a little high.Dave Farkas
Climbout was a little slow, but felt normal for the weight. I was checking the glider in the mirror as we climbed out and it appeared a little low, but not way off.Mike does what just about any of us would have. The tug's high, he reflexively noses up a bit to stay in position, anticipating that the tug will react and help him out...Mike seemed pushed out, but not all the way.But he doesn't. And notice Bill isn't telling him to pull in immediately, get his speed back up, and release.The glider never dipped below my view in the mirror and seemed to stay about in the same place and stable as we climbed out.Not only does he doesn't but he probably does the precise opposite. And now the glider is in serious trouble.I can't remember for certain, but I may have eased the bar out slightly to try to get a little better rate of climb and get away from the ground a little quicker.They CAN'T get it back on track 'cause they're stalling and they can't release 'cause they both know that as soon as they lose the tow they're going down like a brick.I estimate at about 100-150 feet, I noticed the glider tracking left. I felt confident with Mike and Bill on the glider that if they got off track or in a problem situation, they would correct it or release, as had happened a couple of other times during the week on other tandem flights with other students, though at higher altitude.They're pretty much dead by this point.As I checked on the glider, it continued to track more to the left and wasn't coming back to center. I estimate the airspeed at this time to be between 30-35 mph. Due to our low altitude, I didn't want to wait too long to take action, as it seemed pressure was building and the weak link hadn't broken.
The next two steps may not have happened in this order, as this part is still a little confusing in my mind. I believe I pulled the release handle, but nothing happened. I tried to maneuver the trike a little to line up better with the glider to get them back in line, but that didn't work.Piece o' shit release - two-string. Eleven years and eight days after Chris Bulger gets killed. Absolutely nothing learned. Big freaking surprise. We're about to make this a triple and get in the Guinness Book.The trike was now being pulled to the left toward a treeline and I felt we were now in real trouble. I either pulled the release handle again or it was still opened from before, but the line still did not release.Total cluster fuck. (It was the tug end weak link that eventually blew - in case anyone was wondering.)I didn't want to try this, but I thought if I reduced power a little, I might be able to lighten the pressure for Mike and Bill and maybe they could get the glider back under control, so I came back on the power some.
I waited a short period and then powered up to try and force a weak link break or make the towline release. At this time the trike was again being pulled what seemed very close to the treeline. I kept up power to try to pull us away when either the weak link on the trike broke or the towline released.
I was able to pull the trike away from the trees and circled back to check on the glider which I then saw on the ground. I quickly landed the trike and proceeded to the accident site.We seem to be forgetting about Jamie Alexander and Frank Spears at Quest two years later...The question is, what is been done right so many times by so many people in so many places versus what went wrong that one time....and Arlan Birkett and Jeremiah Thompson at Cushing Field nine years later.Bill Bryden - 1999/01
At a point just before things went bad, the tug climbed and the glider got low behind the tug.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger deathYeah right. THE GLIDER GOT LOW BEHIND THE TUG and JEREMIAH (but not, of course, Arlan) GOT PRETTY LOW ON THE TOW AS THE TUG CROSSED THE ROAD.Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/10 18:44:27 UTC
I saw that Jeremiah was doing the takeoff right from the start and I watched him get pretty low on the tow as the tug crossed the road at the end of the runway.
Bullshit.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak linksAnd today we have assholes like this qualified to kill people the same way.Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
So what was that you were saying about learning from history, John?
Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/11 22:19:09 UTC
I'll ask to have this issue added to the Towing Committee agenda for the upcoming BOD meeting.
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/12 22:25:47 UTCMeaning that if nobody was killed - immediately anyway - a tow operation gets to log it as a safe flight and use that data to advertise its sterling record on its website and brochures.Fatalities versus safe flights are one piece of data.Like when Tex dumped Holly Korzilius - who herself had no realistic chance of releasing with the shit equipment Steve sold her - at the extreme of an oscillation cycle. It took fifteen hours of surgery to titanium her face back together but it's still a safe flight - just one with an injury.Another piece is accidents and injuries.
And then we have the category of excellent flights in which the pilot is neither killed NOR maimed...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11155
QuestionSince the weak link did its job and blew before the glider got dangerously out of control and his leg WASN'T snapped that was a really excellent - if rather short - flight and we don't hafta think about establishing a minimum weak link rating like they have in aviation that isn't controlled by total assholes.Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped. Fortunately, I fly with solid wheels on the glider, so me, the glider, and the dolly all rolled safely to a stop with no damage to anyone or anything.
Merely interesting flights...And since everybody lived happily ever after...Ralph Sickinger - 2000/08/26 22:18:20 UTC
After towing to altitude, Sunny waved me off; I pulled on the release (hard), but nothing happened! After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall; Sunny had no choice but to gun the engine in attempt to regain flying speed, but this resulted in a sudden and severe pull on the harness and glider; I was only able to pull on the release again, while simultaneously praying for the weak link to break. The release finally opened, and I was free of the tug....we don't really need to consider that this former crop duster pilot was using the same piece of crap Lookout release when he locked out nine years and five days later. And since he didn't die for another four days after being scraped off the runway we can probably log that one as a safe flight. He was 67 years old ferchrisake. Who's to say? Coulda died from anything.Approximately ten emergency vehicles were parked all over the runway.
The EMTs were carrying a pilot out from under the wreckage of a hang glider next to the runway. They loaded the victim/stretcher into an ambulance, but didn't drive away. Stayed parked on the runway for at least a half an hour. I don't yet know what the outcome was.
Later heard that he was evacuated by helicopter because of a head injury.
Then you have your totally awesome extreme flights...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3648Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
Oh no! more on weak linksCOOL!!! The kinds of adrenalin rushes we could only dream about when we took our first little bunny hill runs.Carlos Weill - 2008/11/30 19:24:09 UTC
I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release. I kept trying and was close to 90 deg. All these happen very quickly, as anyone that has experienced a lock out would tell you. I heard a snap, and then just like the sound of a WWII plane just shut down hurdling to the ground, only the ball of fire was missing. The tug weak link broke off at 1000ft, in less than a second the glider was at 500ft.Yeah Tracy, don't worry about having sane standards for the equipment to do these jobs 'cause nobody with a well-trained brain is ever gonna be in a situation like that below five hundred feet. Fucking moron.Good equipment is important, the best equipment is a well-trained brain.
And you teach engineering? Un freaking believable.
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/12 13:33:23 UTChttp://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16439Another piece is accidents and injuries. We know that a number of hang gliding accidents and injuries occur in Ohio, Michigan, and the rest of the country every year. Much of it is unreported, but we know it happens. It is important to always try to make that number lower.
Some day we will learnSteve Morris - 2010/03/31 23:58:54 UTC
Sunnyvale, California
In 2009 there were several serious hang gliding accidents involving pilots on the HG forum (or who had close friends on the forum that reported that these accidents had occurred). In each case there was an immediate outcry from forum members not to discuss these accidents, usually referring to the feelings of the pilots' families as a reason to not do so. In each case it was claimed that the facts would eventually come out and a detailed report would be presented and waiting for this to happen would result in a better informed pilot population and reduce the amount of possibly harmful speculation.
In each of these cases I have never seen a final detailed accident report presented in this forum. So far as I can tell, the accident reporting system that has been assumed to exist here doesn't exist at all, the only reports I've seen are those published in the USHPA magazine. They are so stripped down, devoid of contextual information and important facts that in many cases I have not been able to match the magazine accident report with those mentioned in this forum.
The end result has been that effective accident reporting is no longer taking place in the USHPA magazine or in this forum. Am I the only one who feels this way?http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092There have been tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands conducted since that tragic accident years ago. Malcomb Jones alone says he has done 40-50,000. We don't have exact data about how many tandem aerotow flights are conducted in the country, but we know it is significant. The question is, what is been done right so many times by so many people in so many places versus what went wrong that one time.
Crash at Questair(...speaking of Malcolm.)Alfie Norks - 2010/06/03 12:24:40 UTC
Brazil
Speedy recovery to the pilot in question.
It could have been worse. It could have happened at...the other place (but nothing happens there.)
Good luck if it does. No 911 calls allowed. My friend was lucky, the nurse on hand convinced the owner not to move him, this after he snatched and threw her phone away.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?Joey Quillen - 2011/02/04 01:34:54 UTC
Nashville
Does anyone know how Zach Etheridge fared after his accident late late year? He was being aerotowed at LMFP when his line released near the end of the LZ. He unsuccessfully tried to recover from the stall and turn around to land. He impacted and went unconscious. I happened to be across the LZ with some friends and we ran out to help, but he was out cold.Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 05:51:15 UTC
Jacksonville, North Carolina
I don't think I heard about this accident. I hope he recovered from his injuries.Joey Quillen - 2011/02/04 10:01:30 UTC
I want to say it was in late August or early September. I had made my first mountain flight that day and I was so excited, then we saw him crash. It was a terrible sight.Diev Hart - 2011/02/04 10:25:40 UTC
This is what really bugs me, when things happen and the word never gets out...
SOOOOOO uncool as a school / organization / instructor...I think we're doing a pretty good job of keeping our numbers low, Tracy. Say hi to Matt for me at the next Towing Committee meeting.Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC
Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.- These people have cards with ratings on them.Another piece of data is the display of poor aerotowing skills. You may or may not get the number of visiting pilots in Ohio as we do who come from all across the country. About half of them tow OK, the other half have terrible skills, even though they got an AT rating someplace. It is not exact data, but I can tell you that there should not be so many pilots who blow launches, tow in the wrong position, oscillate, react slow to being out of position, overshoot when going back to position, break weak links, lockout, and then if they make it to the top of the tow, turn to the left instead of to the right.
This is all too common in hang gliding, and very uncommon in sailplanes. Why the difference--it is primarily because of an expectation of higher skills and better aerotow instruction. Part of it is that hang gliders are harder to tow and easier to lock out than sailplanes--the argument that hang glider pilots need a lower level of training and skills is not correct.
- If they have an AT rating on the card that means they're supposed to be able to fly on tow.
- If you're seeing people who can't fly on tow who have cards with AT ratings on them you're not seeing a problem with the people - you're seeing a symptom of a problem with the people who signed them off.
I was having a conversation with a couple of people at the picnic tables at Ridgely. A fairly advanced solo student was listening in and asked, "What's a lockout?"
Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/12 14:10:11 UTCThe proof that I'm a moron, is that I'm making another post to this list.Fucking moron. And you teach engineering? Un freaking believable.
Anyway, the civility and functionality of this list seems to have degenerated, so I'll try to communicate with some of you about current tug-related issues in some other way for now. Please feel free to email me directly.
Best, Tracy
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/12 15:05:08 UTC
Good.
There is NOTHING more dysfunctional and dangerous in aviation than treating incompetent people in positions of authority with civility and respect that they don't deserve.
Tracy's got a long history - as the careful reader might note was exhibited here in the past couple of days - of not addressing the issues I raise. That's 'cause he's just smart enough to know that if he ever grew enough of a pair to do so I'd hand them back to him on a platter in about fifteen seconds.
Time honored strategy of cowards the world over - declare victory and leave.
John Alden - 2011/02/12 15:06:21 UTC
Tad, I appreciate your research and I think the reposting of these facts has value, but the personal attacks do nothing to further the conversation.
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/12 15:21:00 UTC
John,
You wanna see personal attacks?
http://www.kitestrings.org/post95.html#p95
When people don't address legitimate issues raised there is no conversation worth furthering. That guy is dangerous and he won't engage so he's gonna stay dangerous.
And if you now wanna further a productive conversation with one of the major distractions out of the way I'll be more than happy to oblige.
John Alden - 2011/02/12 15:37:17 UTC
Tad, just to be clear, do you consider Tracy's posting in the below link to be a personal attack?
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/12 15:42:19 UTC
Goddam right I do. Just faux-polite way of saying "Fuck you."
Rick Mullins - 2011/02/12 16:28:14 UTC
John you're wasting your time. We really didn't need Tad's link to show that every list seems to have people that have no clue how to have a civil debate. Unless the moderator does something this list has probably lost most it's value. Fire away Tad, I won't be around to read it. While you seem to have some pertinent information, you're obviously a total dick.
Rick Mullins - 2011/02/12 16:32:18 UTC
I guess that wasn't very civil, was it? My apologies...
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/12 16:36:33 UTC
Yep. But I'm a total dick who really really knows what he's talking about. Tracy's a total dick who really really doesn't.
And I don't really mind being called a total dick and I'll be more than happy to carry on a productive discussion with anyone who wants to.
futzandtinker@verizon.net (Richard Bryant) - 2011/02/12 16:41:38 UTC
Don't feed the troll!
Tad has been kicked off nearly every group he has posted his ill- mannered rehash of history. HangGliding.org got tired of his crap and banned him. He has been asked not to come back to his home site, Highland Aerosports. His local club, Capital Hang Gliding and Paragliding Club banned him from posting and probably hasn't flown in years. He has his 'facts 'completely wrong about what happened to Holly Korzilius (I talked to her and her version is nothing like what Tad states).
Don't feed the troll! I suspect it is only a matter of time before he gets kicked off this group as well...some people never learn.
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/12 16:46:58 UTC
Yeah, that must've been a real productive conversation - considering she hit so hard her short term memory was wiped.
http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident reportUSHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.
The pilot launched at 12:15 while conditions were just starting to become thermally, with just a slight crosswind of maybe 20 degrees with winds of 8 to 12 mph NNW. The pilot had flown here via AT more than 50 times.
Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.
The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first. She had a full face helmet, which helped reduce her facial injuries but could not totallly prevent them. The gliders wings were level with the ground when it made contact with the ground.
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/12 17:50:07 UTC
John,
A little background...Luen Miller - 1996/07
1996/04/28 - Frank Sauber - 68 - Taylor Farm Training Hill, Fredericksburg, Virginia
- Novice, 17 years, "still low airtime", tow signoff on a payout winch
- Pacific Airwaves Formula
- Lockout on tow? - Downwind stall? -"Massive internal"
The pilot and a tow operator were using an experimental stationary winch system, reportedly utilizing a motorcycle engine. On the first tow a bicycle grip release was used and three tries were required before the glider released.
On the second tow a string three-ring circus was used. The pilot also said that he wanted to remain lower. "At fifty feet Frank got into a left turn for reasons unknown. The operator thinks that Frank may have been reaching for the release. The turn went uncorrected until Frank was 180 degrees from his original flight path." The winch operator does not believe the glider locked out. At some point in the turn the tow operator reduced power on the winch.
The glider impacted the ground nose first. After attempts to revive the pilot failed, the tow operator went for help. The pilot was pronounced dead on arrival at a local hospital.
The above information has been assembled from second and third-hand reports. An official accident report on this incident has not yet been received.I first took lessons at Kitty Hawk in 1980 on Easter weekend. Frank and Barbara were camped about two or three tents away with a Seahawk on the racks. He had tremendous enthusiasm for hang gliding but zilch in the way of aptitude and a nasty case of acrophobia.Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09 15:50
Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude. We need a release that is held in the mouth. A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.
Starting in 1988 I started working my ass off to get him competent and safe enough for a Two and mountain flying. After about a year and a half of training hill hell I was able to sign him off and throw him off the ramp at Henson and for the remainder of his life we carpooled to the ridges and, every now and then, a tow site. He was a real decent, generous guy. He was the last guy who I signed off on a rating and the last guy who signed me off on a rating sent him up on crappy equipment and killed him in two tows.
And 88 days later Bill and Mike were killed. And, although it ended up not being a factor, the equipment they were using was absolute deadly junk. Even if that tow had made it all the way to altitude all three of them could easily have been killed.
I went back with Bill to about the mid Eighties. We weren't the best of buddies but we shared a lot of air, I towed behind and drove his truck, and I went to his funeral.
I wanted to attend that Tandem clinic but Bill said that wasn't gonna happen 'cause I was a dangerous nutcase. That was maybe about a quarter true but sometimes dangerous nutcases develop skills and learn how to handle emergency situations well enough to gain edges that the well behaved children don't have.
I weigh(ed) right about the same as Mike. If I had gone up on that ride I WOULD have reacted the same as Mike (and Bill). I WOULD have pushed out and I WOULD have been killed.
In the winter of 2004/5 Steve Kinsley developed a really cool release that - for one point aero anyway - fulfilled the vision he had after after Frank was killed.
I took his idea and made some refinements. If you wanna see them...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/sets/72057594141352219/detail
Secondary Bridle Assembly, Four-String Release...
In March he demoed it at Manquin but Steve Wendt wasn't the least bit interested. So on the evening of 2005/05/28 everybody had a little party to celebrate his winning of the Instructor Of The Year Award. And the next day one of his students at that party would wind up in intensive care. And in four months and four days another one of his students at that party would end up in a lifeless heap below the escarpment at Whitwell 'cause Steve doesn't believe in teaching people to do hook-in checks.
And I'm just getting a little tired of the assholes who control this sport - USHGA, the chapters, the big commercial operations, and the big forum "moderators" doing everything they can to make sure this sport NEVER gets any better than it was twenty-five years ago.
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/12 18:40:33 UTC
A little postmortem traffic from the CHGA forum from which I was eventually arbitrarily "suspended" (read permanently banned).
Scott is Holly's then significant other, now husband. I had been corresponding with him ten days prior to the crash on the subject of AT releases.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=587
Holly's Accidenthttp://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=591Scott Wilkinson - 2005/05/30 03:16:49 UTC
Thanks Ralph for the early post. I wanted to update everyone on Holly's condition before going to bed. It's been a long day, many tears, much stress.
As Ralph mentioned, I didn't see Holly's accident, but Steve Wendt saw it all (as did several others). For now, all I'm comfortable saying is that Holly opted to aerotow on her Moyes Litesport. From what Steve told me, she experienced oscillations shortly after takeoff which quickly became severe. At an altitude somewhere between fifty and a hundred feet (We don't know for sure) there was a lockout situation with the glider at a near 90-degree angle. When a line broke (I don't know which one), Holly's glider recoiled backwards, almost fully inverted, then partially recovered in a dive toward the ground.
Steve saw Holly pulling in for speed. He speculated had she been ten to twenty feet higher, she might have made it... and ten to twenty feet lower, she could have died. Whatever the case, she hit the ground hard at something less than a vertical angle. Her Charly Insider full-face helmet was broken through in two places (the chin and next to her eye), and Steve believes the breaks absorbed some of the impact and probably saved her life.
I was sitting in my truck when Tim Eggers ran up and said "Call 911 Scott, Holly's had a bad accident." My mind raced, almost not believing Tim, but without realizing it I was up and sprinting across the field, unable to call 911, throwing my phone at someone at the crash site.
Holly lay on the ground tangled up in her glider. She looked bad, but was moving both arms and both legs, which we took as a hopeful sign. Hank Hengst took command of the situation, taking one of Holly's hands while I held the other and spoke reassuringly to her. Hank immediately cut away the sail partially blocking her while we supported her head and tried our best to keep her immobile. Holly appeared incoherent, her breathing labored, and I don't know if she really knew who we were.
I asked someone if we could get some shade over Holly, and several pilots grabbed her chute and spread it in a canopy over all of us, keeping the hot sun off Holly's face.
I silently cursed every minute that passed without the ambulance arriving, my mind still racing, praying that Holly would be alright. After what seemed an eternity (but was probably fifteen to twenty minutes) the ambulance arrived, and after cutting Holly from her harness the paramedics had her on a backboard, then the gurney. I hopped into the ambulance, tears welling in my eyes, and we sped off to MCV Hospital in downtown Richmond, about twenty-five minutes away.
Holly arrived at the ER at 1:15 pm. It was 3 pm before I knew anything. That ninety minutes was hell, and I clung to every positive sign I'd seen. Finally, a doctor came out and said "She's going to be fine," and though I saw his mouth continue moving and heard something, it didn't register because I was overcome by a wave of relief and thanks.
They told me Holly was sedated and being transferred to the STICU (Surgical Trauma ICU) at MCV. The doctor said they had done a CT scan of her abdominal/pelvic area and the base of her spine, all of which came back negative--all clear. No major concussion either. A minor contusion, but nothing they're worried about. Other than some bruises and minor lacerations, her entire body is fine. Her face, however, didn't fare so well. She has suffered several significant facial fractures. Her upper jaw is floating, the orb of her right eye is broken, and there are a few other fractures. It amazed me that her face looked relatively okay for all the damage beneath.
My stepfather (who lives in Richmond) drove me back out to Blue Sky, where I was immediately approached by a very worried Steve and Tex, as well as others. I discussed the accident with Steve, and received several much-appreciated hugs from Holly's "extended family" of pilots. My glider had been broken down and packed up (thank you!), and I gathered all of Holly's important belongings together (as well as my own) and drove her truck back to MCV to see her. (By the way, MCV has one of the finest trauma centers on the east coast--Holly is in the best hands possible!)
I wanted so badly for her to know I was there for her... but Holly was fully sedated and sleeping when I arrived. The ICU nurse caring for Holly was wonderful and briefed me on everything. That was around 7 pm tonight. After a short visit, I drove back to my parents house (luckily only ten minutes from the hospital), cried a lot, showered and cleaned up, then went back to the hospital to visit Holly once before before visiting hours ended at 9 pm. She was still sleeping, sedated, and doing fine.
It will be a long, difficult recovery for Holly, but she is strong--a Marine Captain--and will make it through. I will be by her side every step of the way.
I want to thank all of the wonderful people and pilots at Blue Sky for the incredible job you all did under extreme stress at the scene of the accident. Hank Hengst had incredible clarity of mind and was extremely effective in taking control. Tim Eggers, Josh Criss, Megan Chapman, Mike Wimmer, Steve Wendt, Tex Forrest, and everyone else were calm, efficient, and did exactly what needed to be done for Holly. From the bottom of my heart and on Holly's behalf, thank you. There couldn't have been a better group of people on the scene.
I'll post info soon on how to contact Holly. She likely won't be in a clear state of mind for a few days, but she'll need all the support we can give her. Surgery for her facial injuries is tentatively scheduled for the end of this week (Fri/Sat). I'll be staying down here in Richmond with my parents for the time being, spending as much time as possible with Holly.
No thoughts on the future yet. Just taking it one day at a time, one step at a time. I've cried much. Heading to sleep now.
Thanks,
Scott
Aero-tow Releaseshttp://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=939Steve Kinsley - 2005/05/30 13:09:08 UTC
Holly's accident makes me think that there might actually be a use for my " Squid " Aero-Tow release. Open your mouth and you are off. Once safely away from the ground, you slide a keeper forward and you have a typical shoulder release. Seems to work fine.
Anyone interested is welcome to fly with it and copy it.
I really hate reading about accidents.
Weak link breaks?Dan Tomlinson - 2005/08/31 00:33:01 UTC
Tad's post is difficult to read but I've seen his work. His release mechanism is elegant in its simplicity and effectiveness.Scott Wilkinson - 2005/08/31 11:47:53 UTC
Tad's point of view is irrelevant to me--there's no intelligent reason to ignore his work if it is superior to what we're all currently using. (The sport would never improve if everyone thought "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".)Holly Korzilius - 2006/09
I have no recollection of the accident itself. My hang gliding instructor saw my 'flight' from a distance. The only thing I remember was making the decision to tow off the shoulders, preparing to get towed aloft by the ultralight, and acknowledging that the wind was crossing slightly from my left and to prepare for my left wing to get lifted (which would put me in an unintentional right-hand turn immediately after I released from the tow dolly).
I set up my Litesport that morning. I felt that conditions were good for flying early that day. There were scattered clouds, warm temps, and winds blowing between five and ten mph from the southeast. Shortly before noon, I decided I wanted to aerotow. While getting ready to fly, I discovered that I had lost one of the lines that make up the aerotow release. The missing line was the primary release line that connects to the keel (as opposed to the secondary release line that runs shoulder-to-shoulder).
I discussed 'towing off the shoulders' with a couple of other pilots, as this was something I thought I could do with the remaining portions of my aerotow release. I did not discuss my intent to tow off the shoulders with either of the hang gliding instructors present prior to launching. Based on the anecdotal comments/observations I got from a couple of other pilots who had experience towing off the shoulders, I decided that I was ready to try this method of towing.
I left the primary release (bicycle brake) attached to my right downtube and never thought through how I would release with the secondary barrel release. It's possible that, when things started to go wrong on tow, I attempted to release by whacking the bicycle brake. It's possible that I panicked when the release 'didn't work'.
Based on the other pilots' reports, my glider ended up perpendicular to the tug's flight path and the Spectra towline snapped. I ended up doing a low-altitude loop. I was able to correct the attitude of the glider and, if I'd had about fifteen more feet of altitude, may well have been able to pull off a safe(r) landing. Unfortunately, the tangent of my flight trajectory was about ten feet below ground level. I impacted head first. My Litesport's flying wires snapped and the glider collapsed on top of me.Notice we never heard what was wrong with Tad's "facts" from futz - whoever the hell that is.He has his 'facts 'completely wrong about what happened to Holly Korzilius (I talked to her and her version is nothing like what Tad states).
Hanggliding.org - like the Oz Report - is run by a total asshole for total assholes - as evidenced by futz's last post. And if you're not getting banned you're not saying the right things.
Tad Eareckson - 2011/02/13 20:30:06 UTC
Futz,
Based on what you posted yesterday and what you HAVEN'T posted subsequently, you're an anonymous gutless stupid mouthy little shit.
Everybody else on this forum,
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
John,Let's continue trying to learn from that disaster at Gates Field so that:We should learn from history, not legislate repeating it.
- we can protect the sport from gutless idiots like Tracy maximizing the odds for reruns (so I don't hafta continue to tell my nephew to stay the hell away from an asshole controlled sport with asshole controlled flight parks that kills one out of a thousand participants PER YEAR); and
- the lives of those two guys aren't any more of the total waste than they have been to date.1. Bill and Mike are gonna die in about five years and seven weeks from when this magazine hits the mailbox.Hang Gliding - 1991/06
Mark Nicolet
A New Twist On An Old Theme
I'm glad to see Hang Gliding Magazine publishing more articles about towing, since it has become and increasingly popular method of launching a hang glider. As different systems have been developed towing has also become much safer. Donnell Hewett's Skyting articles were, and still are, a good source of data for understanding the basics of low tension towing. I'd like to say "thank you" to Donnell for his efforts. Without these efforts, towing hang gliders in whatever form would probably not be as safe as it is. The type of towing I have developed is based on the theories and principles developed by Donnell Hewett.
Whatever system you decide to use, operate it safely and carefully. When towing I abide by Donnell Hewett's 12 skyting rules as follows:
...
Special thanks to all those--too many to mention--who made this project possible, especially Donnell Hewett, by brother Glen, MIKE DEL SIGNORE, Dan Clarke, and Greg and Audrey Fischer.
2. Mark is the owner of the Saber trike that's gonna kill them.
3. They'll be using a hundred foot towline - which wouldn't have helped with the wake situation if they got low enough.
4. Nobody ever seems to react to this but Donnell's sacred Skyting Criteria are clueless bullshit. Anybody (like Tracy) who can't figure out why has got absolutely no business putting a string on either a hang glider or a child's kite. And it's largely the Skyting mindset that's gonna cause this near triple fatality.
If you wanna get - with one GLARING exception - a reasonably good foundation for safe towing, read:Then Donnell came along with a bunch of voodoo physics to replace common sense and easily convinced everybody that you didn't really need two hands to control a hang glider and that there was no towing problem that couldn't be solved with a rope break or premature release.Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard JohnsonDO YA THINK???Luen Miller - 1996/10
There is a possibility that the glider stalled in a steep turn as the line or weak link broke.
Note the similarity in the line of analysis to what Dan published 22 years prior.Bullshit. The root cause of this incident was that hang gliding was - and is - too fucking stupid to understand that a hang glider on tow is a POWERED AIRCRAFT and that reduction or instant elimination of the power to an aircraft on takeoff - especially if that power is marginal to begin with and/or the aircraft is already compromised - is virtually ALWAYS a REALLY BAD IDEA.The root cause of this incident seems to be that the tandem pilots couldn't or wouldn't release when a problem developed, and that the tug pilot was also unable to release the line from his end. The student pilot was in control of the glider during launch, and seems to have flown out of the range of acceptable parameter. If he was unable or unwilling to release, it was the responsibility of the tandem instructor to take over and release the glider.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak linkshttp://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
Weak link questionThis is why I got tired of having my life endangered by those incompetent arrogant assholes at Ridgely EVERY TIME I LAUNCHED.Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/05 23:03:26 UTC
I probably witnessed fifty broken weak links this summer at Highland.Bullshit. After a very brief window for control of the situation, either glider pilot would've been out of his freaking mind to attempt to release. They WERE following proper procedures as best they could while their driver was doing just the opposite. There were HUGE equipment problems with crap on the glider - but they weren't relevant.It will probably never be known whether either glider pilot attempted to release, so we can't comment on whether they were following proper procedures. It is possible the instructor chose to attempt to fly out of the situation or allow the student to do so. It will probably never be known if the physical configuration of pilot and passenger prevented the instructor from taking control, or if there was some equipment problem with the glider.BULLSHIT. Unless the safety of the tug is being compromised it is NEVER the job of the driver to release the glider. That's what got Rob Richardson killed.If the glider pilot is unwilling or unable to release, the tug pilot normally should release the glider...Bullshit. By the time an attempt was made to bring the piece of shit tug end release into play they had been dead men flying for a good while.It was the eventual equipment failure (the release at the tug) that made the situation instantly critical and was probably the immediate cause of the fatalities.Bullshit. We have two more fatalities because of a glider that was inadequately powered and WAS released from tow.We have two more fatalities because of a glider that couldn't be released from tow.1. How 'bout we try using a glider pilot and a good certified release instead of the crap we have now?I have suggested in the past that we need some method of automatically cutting free a glider under tow that isn't where it is supposed to be, and this is yet another example of why we need such a device.
2. Actually Bill and Mike - along with Brad Anderson, Eric Aasletten, Rob Richardson, Arlan Birkett and Jeremiah Thompson, and Nuno Fontes - are really great examples of why we REALLY DON'T.Good fucking luck. As long as you've got tow park assholes like Tracy and Matt regulating themselves that's NEVER gonna happen.I am strongly recommending formal review and analysis of releases and weak link designs for all methods of towing by the Towing Committee, and that recommendations on adoption or improvements be generated.Definitely. But they've gotta be based on a solid understanding of the physics of towing - which hang gliding does not have.I believe that from preflight through release we should have more standardized procedures in towing.Bullshit. You can't make a go / no go call based upon the degree to which a glider has diverged from a path - especially if you're watching it from a couple of hundred feet away instead of actually flying it.More stringent parameters should be set for exactly how far a glider is allowed to diverge from a planned flight path before release by the glider pilot, observer, or tug pilot becomes an automatic reaction.Bullshit. Training situation or not, there's a fucking PILOT IN COMMAND of that aircraft and you do not EVER take control of the aircraft away from the fucking PILOT IN COMMAND. Free flight or tow, the judgments, actions, and consequences are his and his alone to live or die by. If he's not qualified you don't permit him to command an aircraft. But once he has that designation you let him do his fucking job.And in many situations, such as training, the decision should be taken out of the hands of the pilot and release should be mechanically effected.Hindsight's totally awesome but that would've been a real good time to hit the silk. But we gotta have people on the front end who know what the hell they're doing so we don't hafta get that resourceful.Dave Farkas
I estimate at about 100-150 feet, I noticed the glider tracking left.1. Let's call the weak link 325 pounds and assume that the bridle forms a sixty apex degree angle (at the tow ring).Dennis Pagen - 1997/01
The weak link was at the top end was tested after the accident to break at over 300 pounds (it was constructed from 205 Dacron line). Because of this doubling effect of the bridle, this would require a towline force of over 600 pounds to break. This is way too high.
2. You don't double the number for the weak link unless the bridle is infinitely long. It wasn't. So a 325 pound weak link on one end would limit tension to about 565 pounds.
3. So you've got Bill - about 175, Mike - 225, a dolly launched Pac Air Double Vision - about 70, another 30 for parachute, wheels, harnesses, whatever... 400 pounds.
4. 565/400 = 1.4 Gs. Right about where they should be.
5. How can it be WAY TOO HIGH if it's still 0.6 Gs UNDER the 2.0 USHGA (and FAA) allowance?
6. What isn't WAY TOO HIGH? What's your OPINION of what it SHOULD be - and why?
7. Since it was the front end weak link that blew isn't it totally fucking moronic to talk about the back end and what a jerk Dave was for ALSO using a weak link that was WAY TOO HIGH?
8. Like the fucking morons who analyzed the Robin Strid fatality and went berserk about his 1.4 G weak link without discussing the one Bobby had on his end?
9. What the hell was the front end weak link anyway? That would be useful in helping to understand this crash.1. Oh, that's reassuring. What the hell is a REALISTIC tow force? Is that English or metric realism?There is no known reason for the failure of the tug release since it was tested before and after the accident with a realistic tow force.
2. It was a goddam 400 pound glider on the end of a towline connected directly to a TWO-STRING release.
3. A goddam skydiver has a THREE RING release on EACH shoulder to handle HALF the load from a malfunctioning parachute.4. The goddam tug release is supposed to be able to handle an UNREALISTIC tow force. So even if the glider were using a 1.0 G weak link the tug release was required to be operable at a thousand pounds.The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements
04. A pilot operational release must connect the tow line to the towing vehicle. This release must be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.
05. A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line. The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination. The weak link at the tow plane end of the towline should break with a towline tension approximately 100 lbs. greater than the glider end.
5. But this is hang gliding so everybody just does and says whatever the hell he wants.http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107Ground Skimmer - 1975/09
Harry Robb
The three most used brands (homemade models are not recommended due to lack of knowledge about their strength factor) are on Bennett Delta Wing gliders, on Moyes gliders, and the more recently available Schweizer sailplane release used by David Broyles and by Jack Hinson of Dallas, Texas on their conversion control bars for hang gliders. The Schweizer is rated at 1200 pounds deformation strength, as stamped on the release hook. Presumably the other two models are equivalent to this rating as they have been operating satisfactorily for several years, except for one small production of a model change which eventually deformed and wouldn't close properly to retain the tow line. No known problems exist at the present time.
I have a tandem rating!!!6. Isn't it wonderful to see how much progress hang gliding towing has made in the past 35 years!Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.phpHang Gliding - 1998/02
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots
by Austin Scott Collins, USHGA Aerotow Pilot. Based on instructional information developed by David Glover and Malcolm Jones, USHGA Advanced Tandem Instructors.
Welcome to Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! We're the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like we do; it's all we do, and we do it everyday, year-round. This primer will teach you the basics of AT theory and technique. Our instructors have fine-tuned this system over the course of many years, while teaching thousands of people how to aerotow hang gliders. Careful study of this material will make your transition to AT faster, easier, less expensive, and safer. When done properly, AT is your gateway to longer, higher, hassle-free flights, and more airtime with less effort than ever before.
Equipment
A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
Flying Under Tow
The three most common mistakes for pilots new to aerotowing are:
1. The pilot comes off the cart and rises too quickly above the tug, breaking the weak link.
2. The pilot fails to anticipate the tug's quick climb-out after launch, gets low, and then doesn't push out far enough to climb up. Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.
3. Over-controlling and over-correcting. Make only small, relaxed, conservative movements and corrections. Should you find yourself low behind the tug, you may need to actually push out on the control bar forcefully, resulting in a "past normal" bar position, that in non-towing situations would lead to a stall. However, because of the "pull" of the tow line, this action will result in a CLIMB, and not a stall. Stay with the tug using pitch input. If you are low, PUSH OUT!
Aerotow Primer for Experienced PilotsThe Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2011/02/13
Welcome to Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! We're the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like we do; it's all we do, and we do it everyday, year-round. This primer will teach you the basics of AT theory and technique. Our instructors have fine-tuned this system over the course of many years, while teaching thousands of people how to aerotow hang gliders. Careful study of this material will make your transition to AT faster, easier, less expensive, and safer. When done properly, AT is your gateway to longer, higher, hassle-free flights, and more airtime with less effort than ever before.
Equipment
A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
Flying Under Tow
The three most common mistakes for pilots new to aerotowing are:
1. The pilot comes off the cart and rises too quickly above the tug, breaking the weak link.
2. The pilot fails to anticipate the tug's quick climb-out after launch, gets low, and then doesn't push out far enough to climb up. Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.
3. Over-controlling and over-correcting. Make only small, relaxed, conservative movements and corrections. Should you find yourself low behind the tug, you may need to actually push out on the control bar forcefully, resulting in a "past normal" bar position, that in non-towing situations would lead to a stall. However, because of the "pull" of the tow line, this action will result in a CLIMB, and not a stall. Stay with the tug using pitch input. If you are low, PUSH OUT!
Eric Thorstenson - 2011/02/17 05:47:01 UTC
Thanks for asking and bringing this up Tracy.
To me the big difference is the pilots who already fly gliders and want a tow rating. If someone wants to learn hang gliding via aerotow then of course they should be taking tandems first.
In the past, we very selectively look at the pilot's skills via foot launch prior to taking them through solo towing school to make sure they have solid flying skills prior to engaging in aerotowing.
There should be another option.
Eric Thorstenson - 2011/02/17 06:15:49 UTC
First let me say that I do believe in safer and better instruction for all.
However, as Tracy has discussed below about the poor aerotowing skills, the same can be said about foot launch pilots. We live in a unique area that has towing and foot launch flying ten minutes apart. The bad skills thing is not unique to aerotowing, I see it almost every weekend on the mountain.
I learned hang gliding via aerotowing tandem, I now teach aerotowing with solo tows for people that already fly hang gliders. Of course I would not teach someone how to fly hang gliders via solo aerotowing. That is when the tandems are the only option.
It is too bad the new reg is so broad and did not take this into consideration.
Rick Mullins - 2011/02/17 11:13:32 UTC
I have to say also, that I am really surprised that after all the flack the USHPA has taken in recent years for not getting feedback from the membership before making major changes that they are still doing it. Even as heavy handed as the FAA can be, a notice of proposed rule making is released first to the flying community to allow for a comment period prior to making it effective.
Larry Jorgensen - 2011/02/17 13:37:47 UTC
Air Adventures NW
Spanaway, Washington
It did not come from the FAA, it came from a USHPA Towing Committee made up of three large aerotow operations that do tandems for hire.
Appalling.
http://ozreport.com/15.037Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/21 19:09:19 UTC
In preparation for the upcoming Towing Committee meeting and USHPA BOD meeting on March 4-5, I am seeking proposals for solo-only aerotow instructional methods that can be seen as a safe and effective alternative to tandem aerotow instructional methods. Specifically, the Towing Committee needs information comparing (a) tandem aerotow instruction with (b) solo-only aerotow instruction that may be offered after prior surface tow instruction, or (c) without prior surface tow instruction. I have prepared a simple proposal form with eight questions. If you are interested in getting the proposal form and submitting a proposal, please see:
http://davisstraub.com/OZ/1298300143
and call me at 248-921-0092 for more information.
Thanks and regards,
Dr. Tracy Tillman
USHPA Director, Regions 7 & 13
Member, USHPA Towing, Safety & Training, Tandem, and National Coordinating Committees
Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/21
Cloud 9, Iosco, Michigan
I have asked that the issue of solo-only hang gliding aerotow instruction be placed on the Towing Committee agenda at the upcoming USHPA Board of Directors meeting, being held on March 4-5. To help the committee and board have a better understanding of the issue, I am asking for practical and logical feedback from the towing community that I can present at the meeting. Ideally, it would be better for anyone with expertise regarding this issue to attend the meeting in person--otherwise, I will try to collect and present this information to the Towing Committee for you.
I am asking qualified individuals who teach hang gliding aerotowing skills by solo-only hang glider flights to contact me and give me some specific information that the committee can use to make a logical decision and proposal to the board regarding solo-only aerotow hang gliding instruction. The committee needs to look at curriculum, teaching techniques, and skills taught by solo-only aerotow hang gliding instruction as well as the minimum rating and experience that an aerotow student must/should have before beginning instructional solo-only aerotow hang gliding flight, such as whether the student already has a surface tow rating. I have already received a proposal from an instructor who requires a Surface Tow rating and significant experience before beginning solo aerotow hang gliding instruction. I hope to get more information and proposals from other solo-only aerotow instructors before our upcoming meeting. To help make the information that I am collecting more organized and effective, and more understandable by the Towing Committee and the Board, I have developed a simple Solo-Only Aerotow Hang Gliding Instruction proposal form that you can fill out and send back to me. Alternatively, you are most welcome to send it to someone else who will be attending the Towing Committee meeting.
To review, the SOP's were changed last year to require two tandem hang gliding flights as part of the AT special skill sign-off, followed by three solo hang gliding flights. The old regs just required five solo fights. The fundamental reason for this change is because we now tow hang gliders under FAA Part 91 towing regs, which require FAA registered tugs with FAA airworthiness certificates flown by FAA licensed pilots who must have FAA tow pilot endorsements. Aerotowing of hang gliders and sailplanes are both governed by these regs, and the instructional approaches used for teaching aerotowing of sailplanes and hang gliders are very similar. The committee simply proposed a change last year that would more align the aerotowing elements required for demonstration of proficiency for getting the AT-rating to that of getting a sailplane (glider) license, as a way to protect aerotowing operators, aerotow students, and our ability to aerotow hang gliders, in general. There is now much more likelihood that an aerotow hang gliding accident will be investigated by the FAA and NTSB, and more likelihood that those governmental agencies--as well as prosecutors of a lawsuit--may now press for evidence of a similar quality of aerotow-skills instruction between that of sailplanes and hang gliders.
The Towing Committee was of the opinion that virtually all aerotowing instruction in the US was done via tandem hang gliding flights, and was not well-aware of solo-only aerotow operations who would be adversely affected by this change. One fault in the organizational structure and decision-making process of USHPA is that there is and has not been a formal means of feedback before changes to USHPA regs are enacted. The mechanism has been such that committees discuss issues, make proposals to the board, and the board approves, changes, or denies those proposed changes. There has not been a mechanism for presentation of proposed changes to the membership before enactment of those changes. Thus, when the changes to the towing regs were made last year, the Towing Committee had to rely on the expertise and knowledge of the Regional Directors on the Board to provide feedback and let the Towing Committee and Board know if there were problems with the change or if anyone in there Region would be negatively affected. That is the basic process on how all changes have been made in the past by the USHPA Board, through representation of specialties on committees followed by representation of regional membership by Directors. That is why it is important for both committee members and Directors to be knowledgeable and caring. I believe that Rich Hass (our new Fearless Leader) is working on creating a mechanism for members to provide feedback before proposed changes to regs become effective.
If you are concerned about this issue, have expertise, and want to provide usable information to the Towing Committee on this issue, please call me at 248-921-0092 for further information about how to submit a proposal for solo-only aerotow instruction.
