Not pissed but I am a little miffed that you didn't include a name or link to this:Zack C wrote:I have an unfortunate distaste for pissing people off...
My computer was down a couple days and it's tough to catch up.The tugging was a struggle today...
He asked that he not be mentioned here (I agreed).Warnarr wrote:Who is this trike pilot?
Infinite. So we should be able to get about thirty to forty percent of the moronic statements that have been used to answer Tracy's question archived here.(How much webspace have you got?)
But the equipment...Lisa
Technically, the pilot needs to learn the skills required to perform at a minimum level of competence per what is spelled out in USHPA SOP 12-02.12.
...doesn't.This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.
Doesn't matter if it's dangerous, noncompliant shit that won't work when you most need it to...Basically, this includes passing the AT written exam and an oral quiz [SOP 12-02.12(A.1-4)] on:
1. Demonstration of proper set-up, inspection, and use of aerotow equipment.
As long as you've demonstration proper setup and inspection and popped it open once with the launch assistant pulling on the towline while you're lying on the launch cart.Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
Emergency procedures for WHAT?2. Demonstration and use of aerotow signals and emergency procedures.
There IS no danger to the hang glider pilot who gets out of The Cone of Safety in straight or turning flight.3. Discussion of dangers to hang glider pilot and tug pilot of getting out of the cone of safety in straight and turning flight.
Obviously.The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2012/08/03
If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
Tracy
What about practical aerotow flight skills?
Yeah. Make ABSOLUTELY SURE you turn to the right. That's a real biggie for hang gliding.Lisa
This requires a minimum of two tandem aerotows flights in smooth air [SOP 12-02.12(A.5)], with:
1. Demonstration of successful, confident, controlled launches and flight under tow to release at altitude with a tandem pilot, with a smooth release and turn to the right when transitioning to free flight.
Yeah, appropriate maintenance of proper tow line tension and airspeed...2. Demonstration of proper directional and pitch control, resulting in proper tracking of the aerotow vehicle in both straight and turning flight and appropriate maintenance of proper tow line tension and airspeed.
You take off and keep the fuckin' wings level no matter what ferchrisake. Why do they have to be with a tandem pilot?3. Demonstration of proper technique for at least one normal and one crosswind takeoff (actual or simulated) with a tandem pilot.
Ya know what's an even better demonstration of ability to control the glider position within the "cone of safety" behind the aerotow vehicle? Staying in perfect position at all times in smooth air and reacting properly in the rough stuff. (Sometimes I wonder how I managed to survive aerotowing in the years between 1986 and 2008 without ever once having probed the precise edges of the zone inside of which is total safety and outside of which is instant death.)4. Demonstration of ability to control the glider position within the "cone of safety" behind the aerotow vehicle by performing "cross" and "diamond" maneuvers during tow at altitude with a tandem rated pilot who is experienced and proficient at performing those maneuvers. (Note: This checks for positive control and lockout prevention skills, somewhat like the "boxing the wake" maneuver used for sailplane aerotow check flights, but "boxing the wake" must not be performed by hang gliders on tow due to lack of 3-axis control.)
I notice you motherfuckers specify that the weak link/tow rope break simulation - when YOU'RE on board - is to be done AT ALTITUDE.5. Demonstration of ability to recover from roll oscillations induced by the tandem pilot.
6. Demonstration of proper reaction to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude.
Yeah, keep emphasizing that turn to the right. Absolutely critical. And keep totally ignoring THIS issue:This is then followed by a minimum of at least three solo aerotow flights in smooth or mildly turbulent air to:
1. Demonstrate successful, confident, controlled launches and flight under tow to release at altitude as a solo pilot, with a smooth release and turn to the right when transitioning to free flight.
so that we can keep on unnecessarily killing someone once every few years.Gregg B. McNamee - 1996/12
1) To actuate the primary release the pilot does not have to give up any control of the glider. (Common sense tells us that the last thing we want to do in an emergency situation is give up control of the glider in order to terminate the tow.)
If your system requires you to take your hand off the control bar to actuate the release it is not suitable.
2. Demonstrate proper directional and pitch control, resulting in proper tracking of the aerotow vehicle in both straight and turning flight and appropriate maintenance of proper tow line tension and airspeed. Such demonstrations may be made in smooth or mildly turbulent air.
Tracy
These requirements set a baseline/minimum level of competence for getting the AT rating. Does it really provide assurance that a new AT-rated pilot can fly in tough conditions?
Not all AT rating candidates are new Hang Twos.Lisa
Absolutely not. SOP 12-02.12(A.6) states: "Additional instruction or mentorship should be provided to help the newly rated aerotow pilot gradually transition to towing in mid-day thermal/ turbulent conditions." In our experience, it can take 10 to 20, or even more, mentored solo flights for a new AT H-2 pilot to transition to mid-day soaring and reasonably windy conditions.
Yeah Tracy, ALL of them.Tracy
Then, AT pilots need continued mentorship as they transition to new equipment.
Just not smart enough to know that it's spelled "Wobegon".Lisa
Yeah, just like all the school kids in Lake Woebegone and at the University of Michigan, our club's pilots are smarter and above average.
SOP 12-02.12 is a fuckin' death trap. It sucked before you slimeballs revamped it and then you totally gutted what very little it had going for it. Under its terms you can fly with with releases with no load capacity whatsoever which may become totally inaccessible in a heartbeat, no weak link minimums, a front end weak link half the strength of the glider's, weak links on both ends capable of being taken out of the equation, and nylon towlines and bridles. Fuck you.Tracy
So, how does a pilot learn the AT skills prescribed by SOP 12-02.12?
And somebody with more than a dust particle's worth of common sense - which leaves damn near everybody pretty much shit outta luck.Lisa
Hopefully, from a good, well-qualified instructor who has a good curriculum.
Yeah, good idea. Write a few paragraphs of watered down, clueless, useless crap designed to protect the national organization and its officials and the flight parks and their instructors from any vestige of accountability and use it as the foundation of your training program.Tracy
To start, the instructional objectives for our syllabus can simply be the AT written and oral knowledge requirements and the AT flight skill requirements that are listed in SOP 12-02.12, which you just covered.
Yeah, make sure you cover that technology. Imprint the students on all that moronic coathangered together crap you've been using for the past couple of decades and implant the idea that if there were better ways of doing things everyone - starting with you - would've been doing them already.Lisa
Then our curriculum can be set so as to teach those skills in a logical, set-by-step manner. Let's start with the ground school portion:
Ground work:
5. Conduct ground training, covering aerotow techniques, signals, and technology.
Or move it irrevocably backwards towards the level you assholes have.7. Post-exam review of AT exam questions/answers to fill knowledge gaps and improve understanding.
Tracy
What's the next part of the curriculum?
Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC
With that flawed assumption, the discussion could only go downhill.
Yeah, we use those all the time in real life.Lisa
The tandem and solo AT flight training portion:
Air work:
06. Follow hand signals given by tug pilot to direct a change of tow position (up/down/hold).
The nose doesn't pop up. The angle of attack does but the nose starts dropping through.07. Release at signal from tug pilot and turn to right (conserving speed, avoiding nose pop-up).
How 'bout simulating a couple like THIS:14. Simulated weak link/line break (release initiated by surprise by instructor).
so the student can practice techniques for keeping his legs intact?Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared the glider immediately to land and put my feet down in preparation only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.
Tracy
How about including what to do to get the rating after training is completed?
And the person who sells the equipment, ignores the at-altitude incidents, buries the crash incidents, writes up the fatality reports, and engineers the SOPs to absolve himself of any accountability for anything.Lisa
That would include the oral quiz and flight skills demonstration, which can be fulfilled concurrently with training, since the instructor is usually also the rating official...
Lisa
This particular curriculum is similar to what we experienced many years ago as sailplane student pilots.
So what assholes signed y'all off for your sailplane tickets?Lisa Colletti - 2012/06
Actually, that is our expectation of performance for weak links on hang gliders here at Cloud 9, too. Primarily, we want the weak link to fail as needed to protect the equipment, and not fail inadvertently or inconsistently. We want our weak links to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent weak link breaks from turbulence. It is the same expectation of performance that we have for the weak links we use for towing sailplanes.
Following this approach to learning what is necessary to tow is thorough and very effective.
Because of hang glider weak link designs, shouldn't hang gliding training include about a thousand times more weak link failure simulations - preferably including drills in the one to ten foot altitude range where they most often occur in actual practice?Lisa Colletti - 2012/06
Sailplane weak links rarely fail inadvertently--that's not so much the case for hang gliding weak links. To help people understand why this is so, I think that it would be good to describe and compare de facto standard sailplane weak link designs with hang glider weak link designs.
It's going backwards. Fuck you.Tracy
The science, technique, and technology for aerotowing and teaching of aerotowing for hang gliding has gradually evolved and improved over the years and has gotten closer and closer to the approach used and approved by the FAA over many decades of towing of sailplanes.
Yeah Lisa?Lisa
And, aerotowing of hang gliders is now covered by the same FARs for towing of sailplanes.
or THIS:Axel Banchero - 2009/06/20 04:57:01 UTC
But I have seen others fail twice and one of them was during one of my training tandems. I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release. The other one I saw failing was another tandem. The release just opened when they took off, around fifty feet up.
kinda bullshit has EVER ONCE happened in the entire history of sailplaning.Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
Your relationship with the FAA...Tracy
Right. Politically (our relationship with the FAA)...
...is - like damn near all of your other relationships - incestuous.Tracy Tillman - 2009/05/10 02:08:52 UTC
Hi Tad.
I'm Tracy Tillman, on the USHPA BOD, on the Tow Committe, and I am an Aviation Safety Counselor on the FAA Safety Team (FAAST) for the Detroit FSDO area. As a rep of both the USHPA and FAA, I would like to help you, USHPA, and the FAA improve safety in flying, towing, and hang gliding.
The tandem "cross" and "diamond" out-of-position maneuvers are now a required part for hang glider aerotow instruction because you and your commercial interest cronies shoved them down everyone's throats without consultation of or review by anyone....and practically (our producing competent aerotow pilots) the techniques and requirements we follow for aerotowing of hang gliders have become more closely aligned with aerotowing of sailplanes. This happened concurrently with the FAA establishing common FARs for aerotowing of hang gliders and sailplanes. That is why the tandem "cross" and "diamond" out-of-position maneuvers are now a required part for hang glider aerotow instruction.
If they've been required for many decades what's your evidence that they're tried-and-true? Where's the control group that was having ten times as many crashes 'cause it hadn't undergone boxing the wake training? Did sailplaning undergo a dramatic reduction in crash rates upon implementation of boxing the wake training?These out-of-position training and skill demonstration maneuvers replace the tried-and-true "box the wake" maneuver that has been used for sailplane aerotow instruction for many decades, because the "boxing the wake" maneuver requires 3-axis aerodynamic control, rather than weight-shift control.
Right.Becoming proficient at these maneuvers produces a competent tow pilot who can safely handle out-of-position situations.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
Now if only we could figure out how to safely handle the in-position situations.Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
And here's a video:Below is a drawing of a hang glider student learning to do the cross maneuver with her instructor. It shows them halfway through the maneuver, at the low 6 o'clock position of the diamond (shown in red), which is at the low edge of the cone of safety (shown in yellow). The normal "sweet spot" for towing is when the hang glider is at the very center of the cone of safety, which in this case would be when the wheels of the tug (and the horizontal centerline of the cone of safety) are on the horizon.
This is bullshit.Lisa
It should be noted that the normal "sweet spot" tow position behind the high-powered tugs we fly here at Cloud 9 is lower than that for tugs with less power, due to our very high climb rate, climb angle, and deck angle. Thus, our normal tow position has the wheels of the tug above the horizon.
- Name ONE person who attended that meeting who wasn't a within easy reach, pin bending, 130 pound Greenspot total asshole.Tracy
The requirement for including these maneuvers as part of tandem aerotow instruction for the AT rating came out of the Hang Glider Instruction Symposium, which occurred in Salt Lake City in early 2010. At this meeting, some of the best and most experienced instructors gathered from all across the US to share ideas and improve best practices in hang gliding instruction.
Rick Mullins - 2011/02/17 11:13:32 UTC
I have to say also, that I am really surprised that after all the flack the USHPA has taken in recent years for not getting feedback from the membership before making major changes that they are still doing it. Even as heavy handed as the FAA can be, a notice of proposed rule making is released first to the flying community to allow for a comment period prior to making it effective.
...by aerotow operations across the country.Larry Jorgensen - 2011/02/17 13:37:47 UTC
It did not come from the FAA, it came from a USHPA Towing Committee made up of three large aerotow operations that do tandems for hire.
Appalling.
No fuckin' way!Lisa
It is my understanding that these changes cause a problem for some aerotow operations.
Right. If someone doesn't provide tandem instruction the only possible reason for that situation is that he's UNABLE to.Tracy
Right, although the changes were meant to set a standard of best practice, it does cause an unintended problem for some aerotow operators who are unable to provide tandem aerotow instruction.
Yeah.To accommodate these operations, the SOPs still include an option for solo-only aerotow instruction.
Right Lisa.Lisa
Our experience and approach to teaching and learning to aerotow is with tandem aerotow instruction. We just don't have the personal experience or expertise to explain how to teach it via solo-only aerotow instruction, so we won't try to address it in this article.
Tracy
One other thing, what is the HIERTow pre-launch checklist?
Just prior to launch... Now where have I heard those four words before?Lisa
It is a pre-launch checklist for aerotowing, which pilots go through just prior to launch.
Especially when everyone's using standard aerotow weak links. That's about as much stress as the operation can handle.A pre-flight check of equipment is different, and should be done earlier, after initial set-up and prior to going out to the flight line. Pilots in all forms of aviation use checklists prior to flight, during flight, prior to landing, and after landing. The more complex the aircraft and modes of flight, the more checklists they will use. It is easier to remember what is in a checklist--and not miss something--when an acronym is used. In this case, the acronym HIERTow covers five general areas. The first four, HIER should be checked while "on deck" waiting for the tug to land and prior to being attached to the tow rope, so as not to slow down launch operations.
Yeah, make sure you get that backup loop. So many lives have been lost 'cause it was missed and the main failed.The last item, Tow, should be completed after being attached to the tow rope, just prior to launch. This is the HIERTow pre-launch checklist:
1. Hang check: Carabiner in primary and secondary hang loops
And make sure that carabiner's locked. Wouldn't wanna fall out of your glider 'cause it wasn't....carabiner closed and locked...
Yeah, keep that pod unzipped....in leg loops, harness closed and secured (leg doors open)...
This ain't sailplaning.Lisa Colletti - 2012/06
Sailplane weak links rarely fail inadvertently--that's not so much the case for hang gliding weak links. To help people understand why this is so, I think that it would be good to describe and compare de facto standard sailplane weak link designs with hang glider weak link designs.
Yeah, you never know when that's gonna undergo a dangerous shift - that you might not notice at takeoff position....hang height verified...
Yeah....parachute and helmet secured, no loose lines or cords.
2. Instrument check: Instruments secured, turned on, and set/zeroed. No loose lines or cords.
And, at Ridgely, aren't totally flat.3. Equipment check: Overview scan of glider (this does NOT replace a careful preflight!!). Overview scan of launch cart, verify correct angle of attack, check that wheels are straight.
I got news for ya, Lisa. A weak link, contrary to popular belief, is NOT a type of RELEASE.4. Release check: Check weak link...
Yeah, check every inch of that routing - from the lever velcroed onto your downtube and within easy reach, up the downtube, through a couple of feet of slop right to the end of the......primary release routing...
Yeah, have somebody take some pull on it while you trigger it. If it opens, fine.primary release position and function...
You can ignore what it says in the owner's manual...GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything.
I wouldn't bother with that....secondary release security...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Those secondary releases are nothing if not secure.Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
Idiot....bridle line routing (over the base tube and not twisted), location of hook knife.
WHAT emergency actions?5. Tow check: Verify in leg loops, bridle over the base tube, no loose parachute pins, no loose lines or cords (especially VG lines or harness cords) that could get caught on the launch cart. Note wind speed and direction, scan for traffic in pattern, mentally prepare for tow and emergency actions.
...poised to make a good decision in the interest of your safety within a fraction of a second of whenever the whim strikes him.Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
Close visor. Launch command is "Go, Go, Go."
Yeah Tracy, let's go, go, go fly!Tracy
Well, that's it for this month's edition of Higher Education. The soaring forecast is great--let's go, go, go fly!
...just sit in front of a computer finding out what the fuck is going on and learning what the fuck we're talking about or, perish the thought...Tracy Tillman - 2009/05/10 02:08:52 UTC
The best way to make change is to get involved, and join the Tow Committee at its meetings. That's what people who really care do to make change. Such is the nature of the great opportunities we have to make a difference in the US (although it means having to spend time, money, and effort, compared to the ease of just sitting in front of a computer.)
...do any actual bench testing or engineering to identify and solve actual lethal issues in this idiot sport. Let's just go, go, go fly!Tracy Tillman - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
The UK's a fuckin' disaster area. They:Paul Walsh - 2012/08/06 12:05:34 UTC
UK
In the UK, disclaimers arent worth the paper they are written on. They simply dont carry any weight whatsoever.
People tend not to even bother with them now. They tend to get their processes tight.. Even so, there are regular fatalities, even at the"Best" winch and aerotow schools.
Hence the huge costs of training in the UK due to the huge cost of insurance.
michael170 - 2012/08/06 07:12:52 UTC
What a load of crap.
Christopher LeFay - 2012/08/06 11:01:51 UTC
Most everybody will voice an opinion on just about anything - irrespective of experience. I offered what I've learned - not supposed or figured - from my own experience, and observation of low airtime and veteran pilots I admire. Call that what you like, Mike - it makes it much easier to assess the value of your opinion.
Transitioning in and close to launch is a horrible idea - the last thing we want to do in these moments is take our hands off of the control frame, or impair our ability to run. After a very few flights, most pilots that don't consciously prevent themselves from going prone and kicking in immediately will make it a reflex habit - so much so that they often have no recollection of doing either.
A pilot that is transitioning at the last anticipated step doesn't exhibit the discretion necessary to determine a safe distance; five seconds goes a long way toward negating the impact of such a lack of judgment.
I avoid voicing and listening to OPINIONS on just about everything like the plague and there ain't shit in this sport...Most everybody will voice an opinion on just about anything - irrespective of experience.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
...that we need to be doing or learning based upon anyone's fucking EXPERIENCE. We had pretty much all the essential stuff down a century ago - and damn near all of it through running the numbers.Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
Based on several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county, the de facto standard has become use of a 260 lb. weak link made as a loop of 130 lb. green spot IGFA Dacron braided fishing line attached to one end of the pilot's V-bridle.
But transitioning in and close to landing, and butchering your control authority for the sake of a standup you have absolutely no need to do and likely never will, is standard operating procedure and good form - regardless of how many hundreds of people it cripples out of the sport.Transitioning in and close to launch is a horrible idea...
Note the similarity......the last thing we want to do in these moments is take our hands off of the control frame...
...of the wording there, Christopher?Gregg McNamee - 1996/12
To actuate the primary release the pilot does not have to give up any control of the glider. (Common sense tells us that the last thing we want to do in an emergency situation is give up control of the glider in order to terminate the tow.)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
...like the crap these assholes write off as just the cost of doing business. Just a significant roll will do.Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
Explain to me how having one's hands on the basetube of a glider that's not only lifted itself but the pilot as well impairs one's ability to run....or impair our ability to run.
A PILOT:After a very few flights, most pilots that don't consciously prevent themselves from going prone and kicking in immediately will make it a reflex habit - so much so that they often have no recollection of doing either.
Yeah Christopher. There HAVE BEEN plenty of people so hardwired into kicking into harnesses right after launch and getting out of harnesses, transitioning to the downtubes, going upright, foot landing, hitting spots that they've killed themselves. Those people either weren't or, at very unfortunate moments, ceased being PILOTS....so much so that they often have no recollection of doing either.
How 'bout these guys:A pilot that is transitioning at the last anticipated step doesn't exhibit the discretion necessary to determine a safe distance...
I don't want or need a fuckin' stopwatch making my decision about when I should be proning out any more than I want or need a fuckin' standard aerotow weak link or a fuckin' tug driver making my decisions about when I should and shouldn't be on tow.five seconds goes a long way toward negating the impact of such a lack of judgment.
