instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26800
Sport 2 VG lessons learned IMHO!

Paul Walsh - 2012/08/06 11:59:07 UTC
UK

hear hear....

I totally agree that it MUST be a conscious decision. If you are not aware you are doing it, and transitioning too soon, I agree it WILL get you eventually.

OK, if you have five hundred hours on the same harness/glider setup, and you are routinely transitioning after two seconds of getting airborne then fine. But until then, learn from the post flight viewing of the video. Unless you already know everything. In which case good luck.

I stopped watching the video after he launched without doing a hook-in check. I figured he was dead at that point. What happened?

CAL - 2012/08/06 12:31:00 UTC
Ogden

i think this is sound advice, keep your engines running, don't get in the habit of thinking you have ran enough, you could settle down and may need to run a bit more, happened to me at my Willard site, i launched in front of thermal cycle and settled good thing it was a steep launch, i got away with 2 mistakes, not waiting for a good cycle and getting prone to early Michael170 please tell me why you feel contrary ?

Hey CAL, how 'bout getting your goddam shift key fixed. I'm tired of editing your posts to make them look like they were written by someone who made it through the second grade.

Matt Christensen - 2012/08/06 14:29:52 UTC
Vienna, Virginia

Please substantiate your criticism.

Hey Matt, why don't you come over here? I'll substantiate the hell out of it.

Walt Conklin - 2012/08/06 15:01:20 UTC
Montana

Being stuck on the down tubes too long is not a good thing either, especially when a boomer comes ripping up the slope.

Or...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuMxK9PadzA

08-3717
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5033/14251899186_beac641259_o.png

17-4117
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3682/14088396670_62d49cbf36_o.png

23-4810
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2932/14295179433_313938b3f9_o.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkElZMhpmp0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


...when there's a field a short distance underneath you.

There's a fine line in transition and it would also depend on where you are flying and what you are comfortable with.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/08/06 15:17:46 UTC

Q: When would a pilot be "stuck" on the down tubes?
A: When the pilot can't transition safely.

Sounds like a pretty good argument for transitioning at the first moment one CAN safely do it so if/when the shit hits the fan you're most safely configured to deal with it.

How many accidents may be attributed to waiting to transition until away from launch?

I dunno, Christopher. How many people have rolled or been rolled back into the slope with their hands on the downtubes?

This:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfHF0lRvm0M


is arguably a reasonably good example from the scooter tow environment.

How many accidents may be attributed to transitioning during launch?

None that I know of and you haven't cited anything.

There's no comparison - transitioning early is by many factors a greater contributor to failure. Based on what? Empirical sampling of launch catastrophes.

So many, in fact, that you're too overwhelmed to be able to give us an example.

There are all sorts of maneuvers that are advantaged by a particular posture - most rotate upright for flaring...

Yeah, that's a real advantage...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...especially when your chosen LZ is a narrow dry river bed with large rocks strewn all over the place or a field filled with seven foot high corn.

...while you don't find many doing wing overs from the down tubes.

You mean like when you want and need speed and control?

Still, if you haven't practiced flying from the down tubes enough to adequately control the glider in strong conditions near launch, transitioning as soon as possible is not the answer.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/14.129
Packsaddle accident report

Shane Nestle - 2010/06/30 13:01:28 UTC

Being that John was still very new to flying in the prone position, I believe that he was likely not shifting his weight, but simply turning his body in the direction he wanted to turn.

Hang gliding students don't get nearly enough practice flying from the downtubes.

'Fly with what you are comfortable with' is not a plan for success; I recommend practicing until you are confident in your ability to control the glider from the down tubes.

Ya know what I recommend, Christopher? Flying the fucking glider as much as possible in the configuration for which you have maximum control...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height...

...and for which it was certified.

Walt Conklin - 2012/08/06 15:54:28 UTC

The five second guideline is spot on as a good rule of thumb.

Yeah Windlord...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Aerotow FAQ

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider.

Really hard to go wrong with these rules of thumb people in this sport pull out of their asses.

Mike Bastan - 2012/08/06 16:04:14 UTC
Los Angeles

No word yet from Deeprecon. I'm curious as to whether he agrees with this analysis of his launch transition.

Garrett Speeter (AlaskanNewb) - 2012/08/06 16:25:46 UTC
Fairbanks

I am guilty of this!! It is amazing how fast you develop bad habits!

Yeah, Christopher's defined it as a bad habit so now it's a bad habit.

And Malcolm's defined a standard aerotow weak link as a device which, if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), will break before you can get into too much trouble so now it's the focal point of a safe towing system.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26800
Sport 2 VG lessons learned IMHO!

Greg Porter - 2012/08/06 18:21:18 UTC
Mesa, Arizona

Christopher LeFay - 2012/08/06 05:30:55 UTC

FYI: training yourself to transition in the first second of launch will kill you eventually.

Agree. An element that hasn't been mentioned is that some are so focused on getting prone quickly that they lose focus on the launch and controlling the glider.

- Yeah, there have been a lot of people who've died below the ramp 'cause they were more focused on checking their bar clearances than they were about verifying that they were connected to their gliders at the only time it mattered.

2009 St. John Fly-In Launches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i_PAOr3V1M
andylong610 - 2009/08/10
dead

- Nobody's taking more than three seconds, most are taking one, nobody's having any trouble with the launch or controlling the glider.

Sometimes pilots want to get prone quickly because they aren't confident in controlling/flying the glider while upright.

You mean like...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height...

...Steve Pearson?

I got news for ya, Greg. There's a real good reason for people to lack confidence in controlling / flying the glider while upright - they've read the fatality reports.

A great way to get over that is to practice flying upright at altitude.

And great way to get over the lack of confidence about your hook-in status at launch is to never get into your harness unless it's connected to your glider.

Unfortunately however, the best way to keep yourself from getting killed as a result of launching unhooked is to maximize your lack of confidence about your hook-in status at launch.

When at a safe height, practice maneuvering while vertical and on the down tubes, practice maneuvering while vertical and on the basetube, make the transition from vertical to prone.

In thermal conditions there's no such thing as a safe height for being upright. In fact - given our propensity to tumble - there's no such thing as a safe height for being prone. (Ask Adam Parer about that.) But our chances of staying alive are always a lot better when we're prone.

A lot like two versus one point towing. One point is NEVER as safe as two - no matter how much of a pro you fancy yourself.

Spend some time doing this on every high flight until there is no trepidation about controlling the glider while vertical.

Why not just find some street drugs that help you delude yourself into thinking that you're invulnerable to the laws of physics?

Being focused on getting safely away from the hill is the primary goal at launch. Once away from the hill the transition can be more safely made, even if there is turbulence... since altitude is then on your side.

The assumption being, of course, that you didn't need the speed and roll control afforded by being prone to have gotten away from the hill and still have the option.

Paul Walsh - 2012/08/06 18:44:20 UTC

That exact skill is applicable for both taking off and transitioning for landing, often see people popping the nose during this phase also... major cause of whacks.

- Rotating to:
-- prone after a foot launch is a necessity for safe, controlled hang gliding.
--- upright:
---- prior to landing isn't
--- is difficult, people fuck up the transition all the time, and there have been some really ugly crashes as a consequence
-- prone is brain dead easy, nobody's ever fucked it up, and one is always in better shape to control the glider afterwards.
- Virtually the ENTIRE cause of whacks and the overwhelming cause of injuries in this sport is totally unnecessary standup landings.

Good advice indeed to practice this both ways at altitude.

No doubt. What a personal tragedy it was for me that I never followed such advice.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26800
Sport 2 VG lessons learned IMHO!

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/06 18:49:19 UTC

If a pilot doesn't feel confident about flying on the downtubes after launching, what would their real issue be?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height...

Understanding of physics, experience, common sense.

Is it really a lack of confidence in their ability to control the glider that way or is it just a lack of practice at it. For someone who has picked up the bad habit of a too early transition it may feel strange or uncomfortable to stay on the downtubes for a few extra seconds, but they can help themselves get over it by simply remembering that it's a normal way to fly the glider when they are landing.

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

Sometimes a simple change in perspective can help a lot.

Sometimes a nice glass of Kool-Aid will do the trick.

Also, as is often the case with bad habits, we don't notice that we have picked them up and until someone else says something about it we remain blissfully ignorant of them.

And in this case we didn't even realize that launching the way top notch pilots have been doing safely since the birth of prone hang gliding was a bad habit until you assholes agreed that it was.

New rating requirement:

Anyone who prones out and kicks into a harness in under five seconds from the point at which a foot last touches the surface gets demoted a rank.

Hey! How 'bout we don't allow anyone to fly prone until they score a Three? Lookout keeps everybody upright until after a Two and obviously that's not sufficient to do the trick.

Something that I have always done is to try to get a critique of my launches whenever there was someone there to see them. It helps me to keep track of any changes or bad habits that might be creeping in and I can correct them right away. Other pilots are a valuable resource for things like that.

Yeah, you can always count on them to tell you that your flare timing is off and your standard aerotow weak link needs to be replaced once every ten tows.

If a pilot usually flies at the same site it's easy to get comfortable with a certain way of launching that might not be the best or safest, but it's one that they can get away with there. The real problem can show up when they try it at another site that might not be as forgiving and then if something happens they don't understand why things went all sideways. Flying should be a constant learning experience.

Yeah. I had no idea how much I had missed out on aerotowing by not understanding the differences between de jure, de facto, and nominal weak links, not having a fin, and missing tandem Cone of Safety training until after reading Trisa Tilletti's magazine articles.

The day anyone decides they have nothing left to learn is the day they become most dangerous to themselves.

Ya know sumpin', Paul? I could forget 99 percent of the shit I know about flying and still have safety margins a half mile wider than yours.

Garrett Speeter - 2012/08/06 19:11:25 UTC

In my case, I noticed the bad habit after watching some videos of my launch. I actually feel quite comfortable flying from the down tubes. I just, for whatever reason, started climbing into my harness immediately after takeoff!

MY GOD!!! It's amazing you survived as long as you did!

Now tell me what you typically do immediately PRIOR TO takeoff and if it bears any semblance to what's in your rating requirements.

I didn't even realize I was doing it until I saw the video.
I have sense corrected the behavior.

Keep working at it Newb. Shouldn't take you too long to get back to...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_yTHPgNxsk

05-03223
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7411/14165628916_bbdc682e28_o.png


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5120/14188732974_08536f5037_o.png
08-43827

...basics.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26800
Sport 2 VG lessons learned IMHO!

Christopher LeFay - 2012/08/06 05:30:55 UTC

FYI: training yourself to transition in the first second of launch will kill you eventually.

Ya know, Christopher...

Most of the death and destruction in this idiot sport is precipitated by assholes programming its participants to:
- take their hands off the basetube
- believe that there's no disadvantage to taking their hands off the basetube
- believe that they're better off with their hands on the downtubes

The more we have our hands on the basetube and the less we use our feet for launching and landing the more likely are the prospects for us to be able to come back and fly next weekend.

The things that have done the most to reduce the crash rates hang gliding have been:
- launch dollies and platforms
- basetube wheels used for landing
- tow release actuators which allow both hands to stay in place on the basetube

Here at Kite Strings there are hundreds of posts over about a score of topics dedicated to getting and keeping hands on basetubes.

Note there is no topic titled "launching". Launching - disregarding, of course, the hook-in check issue - is one of the few things hang gliding has pretty right. We know how to do it, we do it fairly well, there's no controversy about how to do it properly, and there's zilch in the way of disagreement about what went wrong when somebody fucks up.

We start with and keep our hands on the basetube for all aero and platform tow launching, much winch and scooter towing, and some higher wind foot launching - tow and slope.

When we CAN'T start off with our hands on the basetube we put them on the downtubes just long enough to get ourselves off the hill then IMMEDIATELY rotate and start flying the fuckin' glider the way it's designed and meant to be flown.

So now you come along with a totally bogus solution to a totally bogus nonexistent problem which diminishes control authority at THE OTHER of the two most dangerous phases of the flight.

Are you related to Peter Birren?

[Zack C]

I think that transitioning immediately after launch can be dangerous depending on the circumstances. I have to wonder if this is what got Danny Jones. You really can't transition without inducing a bank when flying with any speed, but flying at trim in demanding conditions just off launch is dangerous. I do think some pilots transition immediately out of habit when it should be a conscious decision. But I wouldn't say that everyone should stay on the downtubes for five seconds every flight.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

I think that transitioning immediately after launch can be dangerous depending on the circumstances.

Yeah, just getting on the ramp with a seven man crew can be dangerous depending on the circumstances.

And, yeah, if you're holding a lot of control pressure with a hand ferchrisake don't let go no matter where it is on the control frame or where you are in the course of the flight.

I have to wonder if this is what got Danny Jones.

Danny Jones...

2011/04/17

Conditions: SSE-SSW, 20-30. The one minute averager just prior to hang check was 25. Air was fairly smooth based on behaviors of vultures and ramp conditions. There were not large "flaws" in the direction. It was gusty however. Lulls were down to ~15, lasting for tens of seconds. These airspeeds were measured with an instrument. Trees and bushes at base were reliable predictors of coming strength.

Complete hang and equipment check prior to getting on the ramp. On ramp about five to seven minutes waiting for lull. Dan picked up the glider on a first attempt and prior to calling "clear" asked for help. Pulled glider down and reset. Two to three minutes later in a reasonable lull, Dan clears, takes one step and lets nose up too much. Pilot "hops" into glider. Glider climbs rapidly over ramp and slightly right (west) of the ramp, then wind gets under left wing and banks glider to the right. Dan pulls in to recover some of the nose high condition, but does not (cannot?) recover bank. Glider is in a thirty degree banking right hand turn, nose approximately level with horizon to slightly down pitch and impacts ridge a hundred feet to the west and thirty feet downhill. Time from launch to impact, under four seconds.

Glider comes to rest slightly suspending pilot. Pilot is face down, parallel to hill, head slightly above feet. After recovery of pilot and transfer to EMS, glider was briefly inspected and retrieved. In short, it is a pile of bent aluminum and ripped sailcloth. It will not fly again.

Right downtube bent ninety degrees about halfway down. Left downtube intact. Basetube intact. Right wheel assembly on basetube heavily bent. Keel ripped apart approximately one foot in front (towards nose) of haulback bolt. Majority of battens bent out of normal. Nose plate severely bent - could not release nose wires. I did not inspect leading edges or crossbar. Pilot helmet has a six inch long gash from above the right eye to behind the ear. Mouth guard busted through also along this line.

At this point:

Dan clears, takes one step and lets nose up too much. Pilot "hops" into glider.

in the AFFA report I start losing interest.

The way to handle that launch was to have people on the sidewires with the glider floating and suspension tight, thrust off into the lull and ease the bar out, and drop down to prone and get the fuck outta there. That should've been a brain dead easy launch and it got turned into a brain damage glider totaling crash.

You really can't transition without inducing a bank when flying with any speed, but flying at trim in demanding conditions just off launch is dangerous.

Long, stable, fifteen mile per hour lull. At trim the glider's climbing and moving forward. It takes a fraction of a second to drop down and prone out. Then you've got afterburners and roll control coming out your ass.

Also...

We all know how much of a bitch it can be to get a glider to turn when we WANT it too. Even at above trim you're not gonna get in much trouble sliding a hand down the downtube and making a quick switch. I did A LOT of high wind launches - dunes, hills, buttes, slots, ramps - and I'm not remembering transitions as ever being BFDs.

I do think some pilots transition immediately out of habit when it should be a conscious decision.

That WOULD make sense. That's EXACTLY what they do at the other end of the flight.

But I wouldn't say that everyone should stay on the downtubes for five seconds every flight.

I'd say that everyone who NEEDS to stay on the downtubes for five seconds for a particular flight should stay on the downtubes for five seconds for that particular flight. Otherwise - and in the vast majority of launches - they should do what these guys:

2009 St. John Fly-In Launches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i_PAOr3V1M
andylong610 - 2009/08/10
dead

are doing.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26800
Sport 2 VG lessons learned IMHO!

Terry Strahl (deeprecon1) - 2012/08/07 03:44:59 UTC

OK, I will play the game .. it was blowing 14 to 20 cross at times.

One up one down for max control in this instance. It was not but a couple months ago you all roasted LZWIRE for his launch at McClure staying upright after launching in active cycles. I call bullshit.

I have more control on the basetube when things have settled after launching.

EVERYBODY has more control on the basetube - that's how the glider was designed to be flown.

You all are saying you have more mechanical leverage of the glider while upright?

Maybe I'm just a short-armed guy but I can't pull in very well from both up... hence one up one down.

Rich Collins - 1995/01
Morgan Hill, California

Gerry Smith was doing big slow "S" turns at about three hundred feet - and why not? The flag showed a strong stable breeze and the air he was in was smooth. It was a great day at Big Sur and he was having fun. This scared those of us who had already landed because we know about the rotor. Gerry had no idea.

At about seventy feet he decided to land and began his regular approach. I know this approach well, because after seeing him perform consistently good landings I adopted it as my own. First, you climb to the upright position at about seventy feet on your base leg, with a slight turn toward final so as not to be bumped downwind. Second you turn your glider into the wind and begin final approach. Third, you pull in the bar. I know Gerry pulled in the bar because I saw him do it. Granted, you can't pull it in very far but he did pull in.

Fuck, this topic went from VG setting on a Sport 2 to my launch techniques... awesome!
Please less talk and type more of your own video to show me the proper way... please.
All I ask in return - put up or shut the fuck up.
Damn guys, you all were ready to fry bentupright and you don't know a thing about him or the situation he was in.
My name is Terry Strahl.
I don't hide behind a keyboard .. I can be found flying when conditions allow.
Who cares what I think about my launch .. only internet instructors matter.

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/07 04:27:12 UTC

You're painting us all with a rather broad brush.

Why not? You're mostly a bunch of stupid clones whom Jack allows to post because you never do anything to make significant positive changes in the landscape.

Some of us responding to this topic weren't critiquing your launch at all, but were instead responding to possible causes of why some pilots make early transitions.

The undisputed SCOURGE of early transitions.

I thought what I saw in the video didn't look too early. When you fly in the mountains things can get rowdy so not every launch will look textbook. As far as your launch VG setting goes, most gliders handle windy launch conditions better with some VG pulled on since it tightens the side wires and stops some of the rocking back and forth the wing can do with them loose.

You're not the only one who gets out and flies. I am Paul Hurless and I never hide behind my keyboard, either.

You really should, Paul. I sure would if I were you.

oshi - 2012/08/07 04:48:10 UTC
Portland, Oregon

Don't transition if you ain't got control, otherwise transition in the first seconds is fine if you know what you're doing.

JV-Joe - 2012/08/07 04:58:13 UTC

Awesome! Im with Terry. There are some pilots on here/youtube that dont know anything about a site, Never been there, Dont know the layout, Dont know the LZ, dont know the launch, dont know the wind patterns...

Dont know how to write at a second grade level.

but only have seen pictures or videos, i dont mind the criticism they give me, but to give someone specific instructions on flying that site, while not having flown it is dangerous and stupid in my opinion. Id leave it to experienced site pilots to give the tips and instructions...

Bullshit. There are no site specific launch variations.

oh, and to top it off, if you check their youtube channel for videos so you can see if what they preach is what they do, they have no videos... i just want to see how its done like they say it should be. kinda creepy dont you think?

Who gives a rat's ass what their videos look like?
Do the numbers they're giving add up or not?

Mike Bastan (Spitfire) - 2012/08/07 06:00:03 UTC
Los Angeles

I'm pretty amazed that a pretty benign and non-confrontational comment turns into "put up or shut up," accusations of being an internet pilot, and a challenge to come up to McClure and show you guys all how to launch. Wow.

I'm not here to pick fights and I'm not here to dictate to people how to fly. You can see my videos (and my real name) at:
http://www.youtube.com/mikebastan/
Kagel launch on quite a few occasions hits twenty plus mile per hour with some crosswinds.

Name a launch of which that's not true.

I've never heard of any pilots transitioning so early due to their need to pull in for speed, although it may have happened.

How many pilots have you heard of who needed to stop on their feet in the primary?

Those of us trained by the local school have been expressly taught that any transition so early could have potentially disastrous consequences should you hit a gust.

1. Those of you trained by the local school have been expressly taught to preflight your connection to the glider where - and whenever, assume you're hooked in from that point on, and run off the mountain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip2bnzs2ljw


How's that been working out lately?

2. Being hit by a gust at launch could have potentially disastrous consequences no matter what you're doing. How much did you pay to get expressly taught that?

I've had my wing drop mid-launch and had to weight shift like hell to straighten out. A transition at that point could have been serious.

A few thoughts...
- If you have your wing drop mid-launch and have to weight shift like hell to straighten out then don't transition at that point.
- The more speed you have the less you have to weight shift like hell to straighten out when you have your wing drop mid-launch.
- Go upright and try racing someone flying prone.

I'm curious as to why you need so much speed that you need one hand on the basetube at launch.

I'm curious as to why anyone would want to take that option off the table.

From my experience you should be able to get enough speed on the downtubes at 20 mph or less.

Oh great. FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE you SHOULD be able to get enough speed on the downtubes at 20 mph or less. And FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE you're never gonna get hit by any crap that's gonna demand at least as much speed and control authority as you can muster.

But I want to hear your reasoning behind it. Perhaps it's specific to McClure and would be good to know as I'd like to fly there some day.
-
H-3

I think it would be an excellent idea for the manufacturers to publish lists of launches and site specific instructions for getting off them. Who's with me on this?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26800
Sport 2 VG lessons learned IMHO!

Ryan Voight - 2012/08/07 06:00:12 UTC

Spitfire's signature says it all... "H3". Ever heard the saying "the blind leading the blind"?

The assumption being that no one with an Intermediate rating could POSSIBLY have anything to say in the presence of such renowned skygods as Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight.

I'm sure Spitfire only meant to help... but I really wish lesser-experienced pilots would refrain from giving advice.

Ya know what I really wish, Ryan? Never mind.

There are plenty of twenty plus year pilots, instructors, etc. on this forum... people that eat/sleep/breathe hang gliding.

There are plenty of twenty plus year pilots, instructors, etc. on that forum - people who eat/sleep/ breathe hang gliding - who are total fucking morons. The overwhelming majority in fact.

Let them give critique or advice.

Let them go fuck themselves. They're really good at telling you how to do things the way they've been doing them for the past twenty plus years. They totally suck at questioning whether or not what they've been doing for twenty plus years is sane.

And Deep - your reaction doesn't seem to match the tone of the comments? People, even if misguided or ill-informed, are trying to help. Ease back on the flamethrower dude!

Yeah Terry. Chill out. You've just gotta learn to tune out anybody under a Hang Four and you'll be fine.

If a pilot doesn't feel confident...

None of the above seems specific to Deep - but there is a LOT of good advice in this paragraph. If a pilot (any pilot) doesn't feel comfortable controlling the glider from the uprights, then they need to practice it and get comfortable with it! Avoiding flying from the uprights will only worsen the existing shortcoming.

Would "any pilot" include Chris Starbuck?

Many will say they don't have the time or appropriate sites for this kind of practice. Well if you have time to fly, you need to have time to practice.

Yeah Ryan, ya just can't attend too many (foot) landing clinics, can ya?

The time it takes to do some self-prescribed drills is MUCH faster than healing an injury, and for most of us much faster than making the $ to pay for a downtube or glider repair.

Yeah Ryan, if you REALLY wanna minimize your chances of getting injured in this sport...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...then you really need to maximize the time you spend on the downtubes.

Besides being a puss, I'm always trying to practice and keep my skills sharp because I don't have the funds for replacing parts on my glider!

And make sure to always skip those hook-in checks - asshole.

Robert Bustamante - 2012/08/06 06:20:47 UTC

I've been flying Kagel for quite some time. I've transitioned after two steps, but then again, I've transitioned only after I've cleared the mountain.

I have found that it depends on the conditions.

Dude! You don't modify your control actions according to what's going on with the air. You launch, count to five, and make the switch. What's so difficult about that?

If it is gusting to a point that is unreasonable to transition early... don't do it.

Is there any possibility of...
- it gusting so much that you can't adequately control the glider upright?
- one safely making the fraction of a second transitioned to the basetube inside of a period between gusts?

A few weeks ago it was blowing twenty in and no gust. I transitioned right after I said clear.

The school at Kagel is taught by some of the finest and I'd never tell a student not to listen to them.

Name one of the finest who teaches:
- hook-in checks
- wheels as a landing option

Name one of the finest who's spoken up in support of hook-in checks or wheels as a landing option following some of the recent local near and total disasters in those departments.

I do not know the habit of the person who started this thread, but I didn't see anything on the vid that had him going in some turn that was uncontrollable due to early hand transition.

I didn't see anything on the vid that was particularly worthy of comment - aside from the omission of a hook-in check for which he shoulda had his rating suspended.

The last thing I'm sure he was asking for was an opinion from some hang three on how he'd do it.

Let's make a new Jack Show rule. Hang Threes and under are only allowed to report on the crashes they had last weekend and and ask Hang Fours and over for their opinions on what they did wrong.

Sure... give your opinion, but don't be surprised to get a response like he or others gave.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26800
Sport 2 VG lessons learned IMHO!

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/07 06:32:36 UTC

I believe that when it comes to the proper way and time to transition to the base tube during a launch it's more important for it to be a fluid, continuous process then it is for it to occur at a certain time after leaving the ground. We have all seen videos of what can happen when a pilot does it too soon...

I keep hearing about them but I'm not seeing anybody linking to one.

...but what have we seen that would show any detrimental outcome for a late transition?

No. And ya know why, Paul? 'Cause even in hang gliding there's nobody stupid enough to keep counting to five when he really needs to get the bar stuffed.

It isn't even necessary for a pilot to ever go prone during a flight.

BULLSHIT.

- It isn't even necessary for a pilot to ever go prone during a flight in which it isn't even necessary for a pilot to ever go prone.

- But sometimes we need to wring every ounce of performance out of the glider we can to stay alive. Sometimes the difference between life and death is a foot or a second. And on those occasions it's not a great idea to put a cap on the glider's available miles per hour.

When it comes to some of the .org pilots asking for videos, they should remember that most pilots don't fly with video or still cameras.

If there's something that can be fucked up on a hang glider flight there are at least five videos of it on YouTube.

There are also a lot of us out here who have flown McClure. It's a nice site, but there aren't any special conditions there that you won't see at many other mountain flying sites.

Make that ANY other mountain site.

It is normal for pilots to become attached to their home site and want to believe it's better than the rest.

Something else for pilots to remember is that most of us want to see everyone have fun and fly safe.

You've got your priorities reversed.

If we see something that looks like a bad habit or anything else that could cause a problem for a pilot we will usually point it out.

Who's "WE", Paul?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4247
Hook in failure in New Zealand

Kevin Rooke - 2006/09/19 22:54:29 UTC

I thank God that I let go at a survivable height, as I had momentarily considered trying to climb into the A frame.

Hey Kevin, maybe programming yourself to assume that you're connected to any glider you're standing under and skipping hook-in checks isn't such a great idea.

http://ozreport.com/16.078
The Rob Kells Meet

Davis Straub - 2012/04/18 15:02:09 UTC

Mitch Shipley (T2C 144) crashed at launch after a weak link break. He tried to stretch out the downwind leg and then drug a tip turning it around and took out his keel (at least).

Hey Mitch, have you ever considered the "thought" process that went into the selection of 130 pound Greenspot as the only acceptable material for a standard aerotow weak link?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC

The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.

Hey Marc, maybe you should be using 100 pound Greenspot to deal with lockouts down to 200 feet.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

Hey Bart, did you consider how much stress you could experience flying a bent pin release if it gets even more bent down low?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

Hey Paul, maybe that Bailey Release on your shoulder isn't really as close in a lockout as it looks like it is on the cart.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3648
Oh no! more on weak links

Carlos Weill - 2008/11/30 19:24:09 UTC

I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release.

Hey Carlos, what kind of shape do you think that basetube mounted Quallaby Release lever would've left you in if you had locked out at 450 feet?

Rich Collins - 1995/01

I know Gerry pulled in the bar because I saw him do it. Granted, you can't pull it in very far but he did pull in.

Hey Gerry, if you absolutely MUST go upright do your really need to do it at seventy feet?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair

Shannon Moon - 2010/05/28 12:31:35 UTC

This is my write-up of my hang gliding accident on 2010/05/09 at Quest Air in Groveland, Florida during an attempted foot landing which resulted in shattered arms, bilateral humerus fractures, and radial nerve trauma. I could not write this up before now as I am just getting enough motor control in my right hand to type very slowly.

Hey Shannon, maybe attempting foot landings isn't all that great an idea.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Outback - 2012/03/09 02:43:51 UTC
Norfolk, Virginia

You see me clearly in the video at 4:20 pull the LMFP release and nothing. The second time I really yanked it and it released. Not good though... I can't help think if I was close to the ground when lockout started, the three seconds that passed before it released the second time could be three seconds too late!

Hey Outback, maybe you should give some thought to getting your towing equipment at some place other than Lockout Mountain Flight Park - or any other flight park.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up.

Hey everybody, how good an idea is it to be handing over control of the sport to brain damaged douchebags like Davis and Rooney?

It's only out of concern for their wellbeing. Any of us who have been flying for a while have seen too many accidents and have lost friends. We want to do anything we can to prevent others from having to go through that.

Fuck you, Paul.

When "WE" see something that looks like a bad habit or anything else that could cause a problem for a pilot "WE" don't EVER point it out. "WE" *ALWAYS* spend ten or fifteen pages telling the "pilot" the best way to use a hook knife and what kind of helmet to strap on to compensate for it.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26800
Sport 2 VG lessons learned IMHO!

Mike Bastan - 2012/08/07 06:34:57 UTC

It seems as though I'm the one getting all the criticism here for pointing out what numerous other people after me (who I believe to be far more experienced) commented on, and some to a greater extent. I agree my opinion shouldn't be valued as high as experienced H4's, but I still don't know why it warrants a flamethrower, as Ryan aptly put it. I think in future I'll keep my opinions on safety to myself.

I think in future it would a great idea if EVERYONE kept his goddam opinions on safety - and everything else - to himself. There is NOTHING in this game that needs to be determined by opinion - or learned through and codified based on experience.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/08/07 06:58:49 UTC

Slowing a launch run, popping the nose, transitioning during the launch, launching with unequal wing loading: there are definitely sites and conditions that are more forgiving of a failure to vigilantly guard against these self-made threats.

How are you defining launch? Terry's fully airborne when he transitions and there's no negative effect resulting from any input or lack thereof associated with the transfer.

Suggesting that any might be a best practice depending on the site is absurd.

Most assuredly.

When offering a video and soliciting opinion on an aspect of a launch, there is nothing remarkable in conversation and commentary drifting to other aspects of launch - especially when the recording, offered by a relatively new pilot, includes potentially dangerous launch deficiencies.

His only really - and insanely - dangerous launch deficiency was the omission of the hook-in check. And none of you motherfuckers has made ANY comment on that.

Sure, the launch looked relatively controlled; the point was developing reflex to serve when the unexpected imposes itself - not the fifty times that it does not.

You have ZERO evidence to support that assessment.

oshi - 2012/08/07 04:48:10 UTC
Don't transition if you ain't got control, otherwise transition in the first seconds is fine if you know what you're doing.

It's absurd to assume that because he transitions immediately when the glider's flying at trim that he's gonna do the same when he's holding control pressure.

Ignoring a problem does no favor.

Neither does defining anything you feel like as a problem and then mandating a solution for it.

I get the defensiveness - even a touch of hostility...

You'd be getting something more along the lines of "Go fuck yourself" from Yours Truly on this one.

...confidence is a key ingredient to what we do.

I despise confidence in this sport. I'm a huge fan of... What stupid mistake:
- am I about to make?
- did I:
-- just make ten seconds ago?
- make on hour ago in the setup area?

It's a no brainer that confidence has been a primary factor in damn near every catastrophic pooch screw this sport has ever seen. It's the primary reason I despise the Aussie Method and pretty much all of its cult members.

Hearing that something you feel is safe is dangerous is a confidence shaker - a threat.

Depends on the source, Christopher. And while I have virtually no confidence in myself whatsoever when I'm underneath a glider, I've done my homework well enough such that there aren't a whole lot of people who can shake my confidence by typing up a post.

And I'll tell ya sumpin' else... The homework to establish that level of confidence ain't all that tough.

Justified confidence is an asset - false confidence a liability. A truly confident, mature pilot doesn't become belligerent when challenged - they educate or seek to learn.

Haven't spent much time dealing with total assholes like Davis, Jack, Rooney, Tracy, or Peter - have ya?

After about 1500 hours, I hurt my back doing construction; a broken process on my L5, herniated discs, and spondylolisthesis compounded to take me out of flying for four years. My first flight back was at a new site with a new-to-me harness and glider; looming over me was fear that I couldn't perform, and the prospect of landing down slope in chest high brush. Doesn't sound like a great decision, does it?

There were a lot of very loud emotional pressures competing. Anyway, launch was from a long flat slope progressing to steep hill, in low wind (less than ten mph); I was afforded plenty of space for a smooth progression, set and maintained my nose angle from the first step - and went prone and kicked in as soon as I was lifted.

Unconsciously, worried about what was coming next, I tried to dispense with launch as soon as possible. The glider didn't care about my priorities: flying close over the hill, I risked touching the control frame, the slope a bit flatter than my glide. I managed to kick one foot out of the harness and periodically pogo-stick until I was clear. On video, it all looked smooth and uneventful - when it was actually a failure. That desire to dispense with launch prematurely is way more insidious at familiar sites.

This in virtually no way describes Terry's launch or circumstances.

Video is a great learning tool - one I have rarely made the opportunity to be advantaged by; I aim to change that. Of my recent recorded flights, I am no more charitable to myself - and there is no harsher critic.

Don't count me out if you keep skipping hook-in checks.

When there's something worth posting, I'll be happy to share - and the first to point out my own deficiencies while welcoming comment and suggestion. If your metric for reviewing best practices is an advocate who is infallible in practice, you'll likely find plenty of excuses to discount and disregard what I think is important for a long safe flying life. If you hold me at least to my own standards, though, we'll all benefit, methinks.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/08/06 07:09 UTC

Spitfire's signature says it all...

I agree with much of what you said, Ryan - but this bit was ill conceived. Airing good AND bad ideas is how we all learn. If somebody - regardless of rating - advocates for a bad idea, they will be challenged by all comers - and learn something.

Oh really. So where were "all comers" in the wake of that crap on weak links published in the 2012/06 issue of Hang Gliding?

Silence produces nothing.

Yeah, but from the vast majority of all hang glider jockeys it sure beats the hell out of their stated opinions.

Sure, there will be bad advice given - and this venue offers a unique opportunity for that advice to be vetted by a great diversity of pilots, rather than the same local echo chamber.

Yeah?

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement

Jack Axaopoulos

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=592
Linknife

Davis Straub - 2010/04/03 12:46:26 UTC

Tad is gone.

Nobody the shits running these shows don't want heard gets heard. And fuck you for going along with it and making an idiot statement like that.

I think in future I'll keep my opinions on safety to myself.

We'll all be poorer for it if you do.

I repeat... Fuck you.