instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26800
Sport 2 VG lessons learned IMHO!

michael170 - 2012/08/07 07:30:22 UTC

If you guys wanna fly around upright, hands on the downtubes all day, then knock yourselves out.
I'm going prone the instant it's safe to do so.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/08/07 20:41:04 UTC

Great point! That's exactly what we're talking about - when. When can change - dependent on our developed capacity - and going prone is a natural impulse.

There's a reason for that, Christopher. Similar to the reason first flight students will typically stay prone and land on the wheels and beginning aerotowers will ask their wise old instructors why they're not using something heavier than the standard aerotow weak link which just dumped them into crumpled heaps fifty yards down the runway.

I'd like to hear why you believe fighting that impulse for a few seconds at launch is a bad idea...

'Cause he's finished launching and wants to go flying now.

...you've already heard ample reason and argument for - considered argument against that doesn't sidestep critical issues would be a welcome addition.

Yeah. It's just that we haven't seen any videos or heard of any incidents that indicate that there's a downside to transitioning a second after becoming fully airborne.

Tormod Helgesen - 2012/08/07 20:39:28 UTC
Oslo

I have saved my ass on several occasions by resisting the urge to go prone, one extra step/kick is often all that's needed to get off the hill safely.
I learnt this the very hard way, no need to elaborate.

Sorry Tormod, I missed the part where anybody was advocating hopping into the air early for the sake of getting proned out as soon as possible.

Terry Strahl - 2012/08/07 13:22:20 UTC

Ok, sorry Spitfire. Not meant to flame away directly at you, just the fact that many in this forum are quick to redirect a thread to suit their needs.
Ryan is right again, flamethrower going back in the closet.

When is Ryan not right about anything?

So how about it folks, show us some of your five second on the downtube launches.
Ask the Fort Funston regulars how hard it is to launch when it's blowing twenty.
Sometimes it requires .. scared to say it .. launching from the basetube.

You mean the way ALL aero and platform tow launches are conducted?

Christopher LeFay - 2012/08/07 14:14:23 UTC

Hey - that would remove the transition entirely!

Yes.

Any tips you have on launching from the base tube would be appreciated. From my lack of experience, the prospect scares me...

Probably a consequence of your exposure to Lookout. Matt's trying to outlaw flying from the basetube for anyone under a Hang Three and make it a Special Skill attainable only after a three hundred dollar two day clinic.

...but it seems sometimes it may be the right tool for the job.

http://vimeo.com/24544780

1-01107
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2910/14159588871_3cd9e23c2b_o.png

Steve Baran - 2012/08/07 15:03:40 UTC
Chattaroy

I run the gamut when transitioning from downtubes to basetube - If i'm feeling I need, not just desire, for pitch control I'm on the basetube with at least one hand ASAP - often during my run. Otherwise I pretty much go to the basetube after I'm away from the terrain effects of the particular launch I'm at.

If I feel I need both pitch and roll I opt for staying on the downtubes and do my best to run like heck.

I fly a variety of launches in a variety of conditions so I've not gotten into any particular routine - at least from run start to fully in harness and no longer in launch mode.

I've been used to going to both downtubes fairly quickly when rotating to standing in preparation for a landing.

How often do you NEED to rotate to standing in preparation for a landing?

I'm now practicing keeping one hand on the basetube until nearer to the ground - for added pitch control if required.

It is the ground that can be our undoing. The better we transition from and to it the longer we'll be flying and the more enjoyment we'll get out of flying as well.

Christian Thoreson - 2004/10

Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...

[Steve Davy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_yTHPgNxsk


That was stressful to watch.

[Tad Eareckson]

But ya gotta admire the way he was able to do the entire flight on one breath.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26800
Sport 2 VG lessons learned IMHO!

michael170 - 2012/08/09 03:27:02 UTC

Christopher LeFay - 2012/08/07 20:41:04 UTC

I'd like to hear why you believe fighting that impulse for a few seconds at launch is a bad idea...

With consideration of your fevered imagination, what would cause you to think for a moment I care the least bit about what you'd like to hear?

2012/08/09 03:51:35 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
2012/08/09 05:12:47 UTC - Sink This! -- Christopher LeFay

Tom Galvin - 2012/08/09 03:59:50 UTC
Pagosa Springs, Colorado

You might learn something that keeps you from splattering yourself across a launch, and making your buddies spend the rest of the day with EMS?

Nah, he's not gonna learn anything about the many advantages of flying on the downtubes from Christopher.

2012/08/09 05:13:14 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Tormod Helgesen - 2012/08/09 05:49:45 UTC

Can't imagine why michael170 have a thumbs up in his rating. He's a grumpy one that one.

There's a whole shitload...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Tormod Helgesen - 2011/08/28 10:21:06 UTC

Jim, I don't agree with ridgerodent (and Tad is an idiot) and you are very experienced in towing so I won't try to teach you anything about that.

...of stuff you can't imagine, Tormod. Your education has been sadly stunted by too much participation in intellectually castrated discussion groups and having your own balls protected by lock and ban buttons.

2012/08/09 06:39:59 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Christopher LeFay UTC - 2012/08/09 06:41:08 UTC

When your main occupation is pissing in other peoples corn flakes, you draw the admiration of the like minded.

Don't be too sure that what you've got in your bowl is cornflakes, Christopher.

Glenn Zapien - 2012/08/09 06:51:04 UTC

Not everybody likes corn flakes.

Not everybody likes buffalo chips being peddled to everyone as corn flakes.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26211
Video of scary launch and landing

Christopher LeFay - 2012/06/01 04:57:47 UTC

I didn't hear anyone advocate this... method. I didn't see it demonstrated in the example clips Ryan posted. Teaching at Lookout, I never encountered another instructor that advocated allowing the nose to "rise up and rotate into flying position"; on the contrary, letting the nose rise after setting the angle of attack is specifically admonished and guarded against. The manual we used/use is Peter Cheney's - which also stresses the importance of setting the proper angle of attack before starting the launch run.

Relying on hope that a weak student will be apt to control their nose angle later in the launch is a method I haven't encountered. Peel, if this is the apprehension you've been laboring under, it's no wonder the position you've taken. I wonder, where did you witness this... procedure? Who has been advocating it? Who teaches thus? (I hope no one.)

I didn't know he was a Lookout instructor. That WOULD explain a lot of things.

[Tad Eareckson]

Steve Davy - 2011/11/04 00:23:37 UTC

We got it so good at Funston, the gulls, ravens, red tails, macaws and pelicans have become comfortable just flying around with us. It's so cool when you can get up close and they just kinda look over at you like you're just one of them.

P.S. Zack, Tad, if you're in the bay area look me up, I got gliders for you guys to fly.

Wow, has it really been that long since I haven't said thank you?

Thanks thousands but...

I came into this sport towards the end of a period when there were a lot of creative people making a lot of advancements in design, performance, towing, procedure, safety and just naturally assumed that that was something that was gonna keep on happening. I didn't notice at the time when the pendulum started swinging the other way and would never in a million years guessed that hang gliding would become the global organized crime controlled hopeless sewer it is today.

I loved the privilege of flying like and with birds but I despise ninety-nine percent of the people who fly hang gliders and five hundred percent of the people who control flying hang gliders and want nothing to do with them beyond tearing them to shreds online and showing the dozen or so decent people how to best do it.

Fly extra for me and say hi to the gulls, ravens, redtails, and pelicans and give the macaws some scratches on the head. It was beautiful watching them freeflying in formation in that video.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7067
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Tracy Tillman - 2009/05/10 02:08:52 UTC

Hi Tad.

I'm Tracy Tillman, on the USHPA BOD, on the Tow Committe, and I am an Aviation Safety Counselor on the FAA Safety Team (FAAST) for the Detroit FSDO area. As a rep of both the USHPA and FAA, I would like to help you, USHPA, and the FAA improve safety in flying, towing, and hang gliding.

The FAA gets a lot of letters of complaint from a lot of yahoos. For best effect, I suggest that you describe in your letter (and also post to the skysailingtowing group and share with the USHPA Tow Committee) your areas of expertise (if any) related to this issue, and list your qualifiications, logged hours, and currency in certain categories, such as:

1. hang glider pilot rating and logged hours
2. hang glider aerotow rating, logged hours, and logged number of tows
3. hang glider tug pilot rating, logged hours towing, and logged number of tows
4. hang glider aerotow administrator appointment date
5. hang glider aerotow supervisor appointment date
6. hang glider tanderm instructor rating, logged hours of aerotow tandem instruction, and logged number of instructional flights
7. airplane pilot license ratings and logged number of hours
8. airplane tow pilot endorsement date, logged number of hours towing with airplane, logged number of tows
9. sailplane tow pilot license ratings, logged number of hours, logged number of tows.
10. sailplane instructor license date, logged number of hours of instruction, logged number of instructional tows
11. any other flying or engineering-related credentials that you may have as evidence of your competence to make these claims.

It would also be good for the FAA and USHPA to know what kind of ultalight or sport plane tug and airplane you use for towing hang gliders and sailplanes with at your operation (if any), along with a general description of your towing operation or who you provide towing and instructional services for (if any).

Additionally, if you want to really present a convincing argument, you should also: (a) get other experts to co-sign your letter, such as those who have some or most of the aerotowing-related credentials listed above, who have been doing this for many years with many students, and who support your argument; and (b) present reliable data based on valid research showing that there is a significant difference in safety with the changes that you recommend. Supportive comments from aerotow experts along with convincing data can make a difference. Otherwise, it may seem as if your perception of "the sky is falling" may not be shared by most others who have a wealth of experience and who are deeply involved in aerotowing in the US.

This information would also be very helpful in convicing the USHPA and others to take your complaint seriously. Most of the individuals who serve on the USHPA Towing Committe have most of the credentials listed above, so it will be great for you to let them know about your similar credentials and depth of experience, too. If you do not have those credentials, it will be a simple matter for the USHPA Tow Committee to respond to the FAA to discount your complaint, so it will be very important for you to present this information in your letter to the FAA and to others now.

Lisa is the Associate Dean and Professor of Surgery at the University of Michigan Medical School, and is past chair of the USHPA Towing committee. Tracy is a retired university professor, current chair of the Towing committee, and regional director for USHPA Regions 7 & 13. He is also a FAAST Team Safety Counselor for the FAA Detroit FSDO area. They are both very active multiengine commercial airplane and glider pilots, tug pilots, and tandem hang gliding instructors for the Dragon Fly Soaring Club at Cloud 9 Field (46MI), Michigan.

Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC

- But it turns out a loop of 130 breaks at 260! So much for this discussion having any merit. I'm still in disbelief.

- With that flawed assumption, the discussion could only go downhill.

- And the best part...'The article was peer-reviewed and approved for publication by the USHPA Towing Committee.' So apparently everyone on the Towing Committee (whoever they are...can't find that information anywhere) assumes weak links break at much higher tensions than they actually do. I just cannot fathom how our sport can be so screwed up.

Hey Tracy...

How many more highly qualified Peter Show groupies, USHGA Aerotow Administrators, Supervisors, and Experts, tug drivers, tanderm instructors, sailplane drivers and instructors, tow park operators, multi-engine commercial pilots, FAA Aviation Safety Counselors, and engineering professors do you Towing Committee pigfuckers think you're gonna need to figure out the blow point of a loop of 130 pound Greenspot to within a hundred pounds or so?

Or maybe the lightbulb went out and you had trouble reading the gauge.

[Steve Davy]

Dang. I thought you knew Christopher was a Lookout instructor. He mentioned that in a post on the Jackass show a couple years ago.

As for the offer to fly my gliders, that's an open ended deal so...

I've not seen the Macaws in a long time. I always hope to see them when I'm there. They are spectacular and the only ones that will get on a tip and turn with a glider.

[Tad Eareckson]

Nah, I don't think I had Christopher on my radar until a couple of Aprils ago. At that time I thought we might be able to get him on the hook-in check team but Matt implants a chip in the brains of all his instructors which disrupts all the positive change and integrity circuitry.

I think there needs to be a five dollar launch fee at Funston so that some macaw breeding colonies can be established and maintained so you're guaranteed the company. You could designate a species to match your sail colors.

Thanks again.

[Tad Eareckson]

THIS:

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity. Hopefully, someone will develop methods and technology that work better than what we are using as standard practice today. Like the methods and technology used today, it is unlikely that the new technology will be dictated onto us as a de jure standard. Rather, to become a de facto standard, that new technology will need to be made available in the marketplace, proven in the real world, and then embraced by our sport.

is one of the most infuriating paragraphs I've ever read.

They chair the Towing Committee and consider themselves competent enough to...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/1184
aerotow instruction was Re: Tug Rates

Larry Jorgensen - 2011/02/17 13:37:47 UTC

It did not come from the FAA, it came from a USHPA Towing Committee made up of three large aerotow operations that do tandems for hire.

Appalling.

...shove legislation down everyone's throat without consultation or review.

They monopolize the magazine...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26302
HIGHER EDUCATION ?

NMERider - 2012/06/06 03:25:09 UTC

You are being much too complimentary IMHO. I got so nauseated reading it I had to take a breather. Do you mean to tell me they wrote an article that wasn't insipid and self-congratulatory to the extreme? I've found their entire series on aerotowing to come off rather poorly to say the least. A sad waste of such exalted and highly qualified medical professionals. How do I know this? Well they won't stop patting each other on the back about how great they both are.
Pardon me while I puke.

...telling everybody all about how their operation - with their curriculum, Cone of Safety tandem training, compulsory fin use, polypro bridles, revolutionary 130 pound Greenspot tying techniques, personal hang glider, tandem instruction, sailplane, tug, and commercial multi-engine time qualifications and experience, and USHGA, FAA, and university ratings, appointments, degrees, and positions - is the greatest thing to happen in aviation since Wilbur and Orville figured out adverse yaw.

The experts in the field of the real world of aerotowing, on the other hand, are all these slobs who use solo only training, finless gliders, Spectra bridles which act somewhat like impact wrenches on the weak links, and pre-tied weak links which don't adequately hide the knot from the main tension and exclude it altogether from the equation, barely made it through high school, have horrific safety records, and send them AT rated pilots incapable of keeping the glider pointed at the tug for more than five or ten seconds at a time.

But Dr. Trisa Tilletti's Cloud 9 Field isn't gonna be the operation that's gonna bother looking at...

Hopefully, someone will develop methods and technology that work better than what we are using as standard practice today. Like the methods and technology used today, it is unlikely that the new technology will be dictated onto us as a de jure standard.

...Tad's SOPs and Guidelines...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929
Training Manual Comments / Contribution

Bill Cummings - 2012/01/10 14:04:59 UTC

Tad's procedures for aerotowing should become part of any training manual.

...and technology.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

John Glime - 2009/04/13 18:09:32 UTC

Not being constructive? There is one person who has put more thought and time into releases than anyone. That person is Tad. He explains the pros and cons to every release out there. I gave you the link to more release information than the average person could ever digest, and I didn't get a thank you. Just you bitching that we aren't being constructive. What more could you want? He has created something that is a solution, but no one is using it... apparently you aren't interested either. So what gives??? What do you want us to tell you? Your concerns echo Tad's concerns, so why not use his system? Every other system out there has known flaws.

They're gonna wait for a bunch of other twenty year 130 pound Greenspot pin benders to suddenly stop becoming criminally negligent serial killing motherfuckers and do something halfway ethical and intelligent before they're gonna budge a millimeter in any direction other than backwards.

Compare/Contrast these ten miles south of useless dregs and their accomplishments with Antoine and what he did and accomplished in a fifteen month posting period from 2011/03/31 to 2012/06/26.

And note that none of these "experts" whose leads Trisa's gonna follow have given the Cloud 9 weak link article the unambiguous scathing condemnation in so richly deserves and desperately needs.