Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/15 07:39:03 UTC

The weaklinks that I have seen fail were from physical wear, not a lack of strength from reuse.

Yes. You inspect everyone's weak link before he flies, inform the pilot when you find one that's pretty fuzzy, he flies anyway, and it fails. OK.
So what were the G ratings of these weak links supposed to be when not physically worn?

If you're going to reuse one it needs to be inspected, not just hooked back up with taking a look at it.

But we don't have to calculate the G rating. We just use whatever piece of fishing line the experts at Quest and Ridgely tell us to use - despite the fact that none of the experts at Quest and Ridgely have the slightest fucking clue what its breaking strength is.

Any why wouldn't a hang glider use a weaker weak link?

- Because hang gliders have lower lift to drag ratios and carry lower speed reserves than sailplanes.
- Therefore they need to use higher percentages of their weight translated to towline tensions to achieve safe climb rates.
- Therefore - for the same G rating weak link - they have a narrower window of usable tensions between safe climb and overload.
- Therefore they need proportionally HEAVIER weak links than sailplanes.
- You moron.

With the exception of rigids we don't have the options available to sailplanes in the form of flight controls. No matter how out of shape they get, unless they are stalled, they can still have positive control of their craft.

Yeah Paul - UNLESS THEY ARE STALLED.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvK1ONl1CqE


And what's the best piece of tow equipment to use to achieve a good stall?

Anarchist said:

Some member of the HHPA takes off with such a high AOA that a weak link break in the first two hundred would likely be fatal.

We, however, have to worry about things like lockouts.

And...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...Industry Standard releases from the experts at Quest who've been perfecting aerotowing over the course of two decades and hundreds of thousands of tows.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.

If they go too far we can quickly run out of options.

How far is too far, Paul? What bank angle is the limit for safely recovering from a lockout?

4:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC1yrdDV4sI


What G rating would you use to make sure the glider can't bank beyond the sixty degree placard limitation for roll?

Weak links should break when needed...

Yes, they SHOULD. So, in addition to Al Trombly, Harold Austin, Karen Schenk, David Eilts, Frank Sauber, Rob Richardson, Debbie Young, Robin Strid, Holly Korzilius, John Dullahan, Steve Elliot, Roy Messing, Shane Smith, and Lois Preston, how many more people have we gotta kill to convince you single digit IQ pigfuckers that they DON'T?

...having one not letting go when you are in bad shape is a bad thing.

Definitely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


Get your nose a little high high you want that sucker to let go before you get in worse shape.

I am curious about why some people fear low level weak link breaks or being given the tow line.

I'm curious too. Let's ask Rob Richardson:

Bill Bryden - 1999/06

During the tug's roll-out for the second launch attempt, the tug pilot observed the glider clear the runway dust and then begin a left bank with no immediate correction. At that point he noticed that the launch cart was hanging below the glider and immediately released his end of the 240 foot towline. The tug never left the ground and tug pilot watched the glider continue a hard bank to the left achieving an altitude of approximately 25 feet. Impact was on the left wing and then the nose of the glider. Rob was killed immediately from severe neck and head trauma.

Or Richard Johnson:

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Or Bill Bennett:

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett

Weren't you taught how to handle that situation when you learned to tow?

OF COURSE we were.

The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

At altitude in smooth air where there aren't any fences or treetops when everything with the glider is normal and under control so pigfuckers like Dr. Trisa Tilletti can convince everybody that standard aerotow weak link blows and tug drivers making good decisions in the interest of the glider's safety...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14221
Tad's release

William Olive - 2008/12/24 23:46:36 UTC

I've seen a few given the rope by alert tug pilots, early on when things were going wrong, but way before it got really ugly. Invariably the HG pilot thinks "What the hell, I would have got that back. Now I've got a bent upright."

...are, at the very worst, no big fucking deals. Worked pretty well on your ass, didn't it?

Being aware of what can go wrong and knowing how to handle it during a critical phase of your flight is an important thing...

And convincing yourself that you're gonna be able to pull it off - with the standard aerotow weak link and Industry Standard releases and bridles that have been constantly refined and perfected based on several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county - when the shit's hitting two or three fans from two or three different directions is important too! Otherwise you'd be totally insane to ever get on a cart behind a Dragonfly.

And what this sport really needs is a pilot community that FEELS that what it's doing is SAFE.

...I think.

Yeah, right.

If you're ready for it when or if it happens it can be easily dealt with. It's not that difficult. It should pretty much be an automatic response.

Fuck you.

As far as the FAA mandating what we should use...

Yeah. Let's let Davis 2008 mandate...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

...what we MUST use.

Or how 'bout...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

...Rooney and all his shitheaded tug jockey buddies?

Or...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

Davis Straub - 2012/08/13 18:08:42 UTC

Used to do 130 lbs. Now do 200 lbs.

...maybe we should go with what Davis 2012 is saying.

How 'bout the manufacturer's specification?

Wills Wing

Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

...face it, they aren't really very knowledgeable of our type of flying.

Yeah. And we are. You have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.

They just try to lump us in with sailplanes so they can say they have us covered.

But it's perfectly OK if the dickheads running all of the aerotow operations all across the US and Australia lump all solo gliders - 165 to 390 pounds - on the same loop of 130 pound test fishing line.

I can't cite any specific instances of incidents caused by a weak link failing to break, I don't keep a file of statistics.

No shit. Well I DO - asshole.

I would think that if you took a look at incidents where lockouts played a big role you would probably find some.

Oh DEFINITELY.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

Just follow Rooney around for a day while he's visiting stronglinkers in the hospital. You'll find scores of examples.

Or...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

...perhaps not. But but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here. You really need to trust your tow park operators, tug drivers, and tandem instructors. Just do what they say - even if other tow park operators, tug drivers, and tandem instructors say things at polar opposition. You'll be fine.

-
U2 160
H4, FL, AT, PL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
USHPA # 51178
KE7VOG
USN ret.
A & P mechanic

What total fucking asshole signed you off on an AT qualification?

[miguel]

Moving in a better direction.
But it doesn't get me acknowledged, apologised to, unbanned from anything, or my flying career back.
And it would've been nice if Davis and/or Rooney had been killed proving my point.

Thanks though,
T** at K*** S******

One step at a time.
Flying career is easy. Borrow a bird and get to flying.
The *** were for Jack. He got upset with me for posting the little hawk.

[Tad Eareckson]

One step at a time.

That's a VERY small step that's taken DECADES and a lot of aluminum, bone, blood, and keyboard to achieve and at that rate I'm not gonna live long enough to see anything much get fixed.

Flying career is easy. Borrow a bird and get to flying.

I have a bird. But we handed the motherfuckers of Highland Aerosports the Dragonflies and Ridgely Airpark.

The *** were for Jack.

I know. But I like them - and I think I'll be using them a bit in the future.

Thanks again,
T** at K*** S******

[Tad Eareckson]

Video_ Airplane Crashes, Killing Family Of 3 - YouTube.flv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYE61qgdU2g
dead

Courtney Gilmore - 2012/06/18
KPR Local 2 - Wallis, Texas

Minutes into their flight, only seventy-five feet in the air, tragedy struck and the two hundred foot long tow rope that was attached to the plane and the glider broke prematurely.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

http://www.aviationbanter.com/archive/index.php/t-40965.html
Are Weak Links really Necessary for Aero Tow?

Bill Daniels - 2006/09/18 14:30

I would like to add, however, that at least my reading of accident reports suggest that a fatal glider accident is more likely when the towline fails prematurely. For that reason, I like to stay near the stronger end of the FAR 80 to 200 percent range.

Actually, reading the Pilot's Operating Handbook for several German gliders, I note the weak link for aerotow is specified as an exact figure. For example, the weak link for both aero tow and winch for my Nimbus 2C is specified as 600 KG (1323 Lbs) or a blue Tost weak link. The tolerance is plus or minus ten percent. The US Airworthiness Certificate specifies that the Nimbus 2C is to be flown as specified in the POH. Considering the possible flying weights, this ranges between 95 and 160 percent which is a narrower range than specified in the FARs.

Makes me wonder if we should be using Tost weak links instead of old bits of rope.

Really great to see how - no matter what you're flying - some fundamental principles just never change.

Donnell Hewett - 1981/10

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one."

Right Donnell?

That's probably the most people killed in a single glider crash since World War II.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Zack C - 2012/08/15 14:31:43 UTC

Weak links should break when needed...

Which is when? You seem to think it's the job of the weak link to protect the pilot from lockouts, which is not the case. Lockouts are perfectly capable of occurring with 130 lb weak links. It is misalignment of the tow force that poses a threat, not its magnitude (up to the point where a structural failure is risked). Furthermore, the amount of tension observed on tow will vary depending on the glider, pilot weight, and tug climb rate. So how do you calculate the ideal breaking strength for a weak link for lockout protection given these factors?

Observe how well the weak link protects this pilot from a lockout...he'd have been dead with a little less altitude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4

Hey Paul...

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/15 07:39:03 UTC

The weaklinks that I have seen fail were from physical wear, not a lack of strength from reuse. If you're going to reuse one it needs to be inspected, not just hooked back up with taking a look at it.

Maybe we should be reusing and physically wearing weak links more. A fuzzy one might have bought this guy an extra ten feet.

Here is what a few sources have to say about when weak links should break.

USHPA aerotow SOPs

The purpose of the weak link is to protect the tow equipment, and may not prevent lockouts or other abnormal flight conditions.

But then again it MAY. So we probably should be using Tilletti Links just to be on the safe side.

Dynamic Flight

The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits.

Seems to be...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC

Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.

...some point of disagreement amongst the professionals on that one.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad.

Ferchrisake Zack. And don't get him started on T**.

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

That's just sailplanes. They really don't understand that hang glider weak links protect your aircraft against lockouts, stalls, steep climbs, dragging, and Industry Standard equipment, serve as instant hands free releases, and increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

Tracy Tillman - 2012/06

The SSA specifies the purpose of a weak link as: "designed to break under extreme load to prevent damage."

But they want their weak links to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent weak link breaks from turbulence. It is the same expectation of performance that they have for the weak links they use for towing sailplanes.

Also check:

http://ozreport.com/9.033#4
Why weaklinks?

And also check:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

where Davis is still defending one-size-fits-all 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak links.

Any why wouldn't a hang glider use a weaker weak link?

For starters...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11155
Question

Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC

So far I've only had negative experiences with wink links. One broke during while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared the glider immediately to land and put my feet down in preparation only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.

But more importantly, see what I said above about stalls. Two weeks ago I witnessed a pilot get out of position on tow near the ground. He was not locked out as he was able to start moving the glider back into horizontal alignment. In the fight, however, he let his nose get high and the weak link (130 pound) broke. The opinions of me, the pilot, and two witnesses I spoke with were that he could have recovered had the weak link not broken. Because his angle of attack was already high when it broke, he stalled, lost a lot of altitude, and was only barely able to recover (dragging a wingtip). Had it happened with less altitude, it could have been fatal.

Well, if you can't keep your glider under perfect control at all times under tow you should either die or stay home and play checkers.

These videos illustrate stalls/mushing after a loss of tension:

http://vimeo.com/38023533

password = 'red'

Not aerotowing, but same principle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WtDFymXlPU


Sailplanes, of course, are no different:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvK1ONl1CqE

And this little gem that Al Hernandez just dug up for me:

Video_ Airplane Crashes, Killing Family Of 3 - YouTube.flv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYE61qgdU2g
dead

Here's an extreme example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFAPpz6I6WU

Not compared to the Fred, Matilda, and Andrew Blair crash it isn't.

And it's not hard to find accounts of people breaking stuff after weak link breaks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI


You can...

...and always WILL...

...blame the pilot, and while most accidents in aviation result from a combination of factors, pilot error is usually one of them. But that doesn't change the fact that many could have been prevented by removing just one of those factors.

Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived. We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.

And, as you mentioned, weak link breaks are an inconvenience. You hear quotes like the following regarding competitions all the time.

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

With the exception of rigids we don't have the options available to sailplanes in the form of flight controls. No matter how out of shape they get, unless they are stalled, they can still have positive control of their craft. We, however, have to worry about things like lockouts.

Which is why our releases need to be at least as good as theirs.

A sailplane release on a hang glider...

Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09 15:50

Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude. We need a release that is held in the mouth. A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.

...stinks on ice.

As far as the FAA mandating what we should use, face it, they aren't really very knowledgeable of our type of flying.

Alright, then follow our own aerotow SOPs.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 10:11:31 UTC

Oh, btw... before you go there, cuz it is where you're headed... please note the word "Guidelines".

USHPA recommends that a nominal 1G (combined operating weight of the glider and pilot) weak link be used, when placed at one end of a hang glider pilot's V-bridle; or about 1.5-2G if placed at the apex of the tow bridle or directly in-line with the tow rope.

That's just for show. Keep using 130 pound Greenspot and, if anybody questions its strength or presents bench test data, just make up a number that's convenient and tell him:

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity. Hopefully, someone will develop methods and technology that work better than what we are using as standard practice today. Like the methods and technology used today, it is unlikely that the new technology will be dictated onto us as a de jure standard. Rather, to become a de facto standard, that new technology will need to be made available in the marketplace, proven in the real world, and then embraced by our sport.

I can't cite any specific instances of incidents caused by a weak link failing to break...

I've examined every towing accident report I could find and have yet to see one. (I believe most towing accidents not related to losing the line could have been prevented with a good release.)

Yeah.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

Right. Like somebody's gonna come up with something that...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC

Don't you think that the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF THAT?

...the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF BETTER HARDWARE.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Jim Gaar - 2012/08/15 14:52:37 UTC

Zack = Kicking ass and taking names on the topic of weaklinks!

I don't think he really needs to take names, Jim. We all know pretty much where everybody stands on the evolutionary scale in this game.

Great write up and follow through with facts.

Since when did you become a fan of FACTS, Jim?

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/15 15:44:16 UTC

My personal opinion...

Fuck you and your goddam PERSONAL OPINION. This is aviation. You don't run it based upon a consensus of the personal opinions of total assholes.

...is that ALL of the safety equipment I use is to protect me, not my glider, so I have to agree to disagree with anyone who says differently.

You have no idea how delighted I am to hear you say that.

The purpose of safety equipment, such as a weak link, is to act as a backup not a preventer.

A WEAK LINK IS *NOT* SAFETY EQUIPMENT. A WEAK LINK IS *POST* SAFETY EQUIPMENT.

It's kinda like a parachute, Paul.
- With rare exceptions it only gets used after you've totally raped a pooch.
- It:
-- may or may not put you and/or your glider back down in good enough shape to be able to fly again.
-- hardly ever does you any good under a couple of hundred feet whether it's needed or not.
-- can be a real pain in the ass when it goes off at any altitude when not needed.
-- is almost always a real pain in the ass when it goes off when not needed down low.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uegD4QeAc58

25-0820

26-0902

34-1209

It's not always going to save your bacon if you have let things go all sideways.

It's not there to save YOUR bacon. It's there to keep the glider from being overloaded in the air under positive Gs and it doesn't give a rat's ass what happens to either of you after it's done its job.

Believing that a stronger weak link is somehow safer just doesn't make sense.

Not if you've got total shit for brains. Not if you fly a Cessna and aren't really worried about losing your engine on takeoff.

There is no argument from me about the causal chain of events that leads to an incident or accident in avaition or the fact that changing one step of it could prevent it.

Interesting.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=939
Weak link breaks?

Jim Rooney - 2005/08/31 23:46:25 UTC

As with many changes in avaition, change is approached with a bit of skepticism. Rightfully so. There's something to be said for "tried and true" methods... by strapping on somehting new, you become a test pilot. The unknown and unforseen become your greatest risk factors. It's up to each of us to individually asses the risks/rewards for ourselves.

You spell avaition the same way Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney does.

I'm very familiar with that aspect of aviation, but you're putting us back to what I said about safety equipment being a backup not a preventer.

It's not a backup for your release system, asshole.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Danny Brotto - 2007/05/16 23:15:19 UTC

Weak links are not a secondary release system...

It's a Hail Mary for a bozo who can't do his fuckin' job.

No matter what we...

Who the fuck is "WE"?

...do to improve safety equipment...

What the fuck have you - or any of your Jack Show asshole buddies ever done to improve ANY safety equipment? Name one goddam thing.

...we will always have the same weak link in the chain, the pilot.

And the loop of 130 pound Greenspot.

If the pilot in command fails to operate his craft in the proper manner or fails to recognise when things have gone wrong then bad things are going to happen.

If you're enough of a fucking moron to launch with a Quallaby Release, Lookout Release, Bailey Release, and/or standard aerotow weak link you're not a goddam pilot, things have already gone wrong, and there's no fuckin' way you're gonna be able to command shit if the dice come up the wrong way on that particular tow.

You can't reasonably expect to rely on a piece of equipment to prevent it since pilots are always going to find ways to outsmart themselves.

I've got a piece of equipment running from my port downtube / basetube junction to my port leading edge / cross spar junction. It's called a port sidewire. I reasonably expect to rely on it to prevent my wing from folding up. I check and test it before (and after) I fly so I don't get any really nasty surprises related to it when I'm busy aviating.

There ARE people who find ways to outsmart themselves with respect to this piece of equipment but they're not pilots and I don't worry about them too much.

It's human nature. No matter if you want to use strong weak links or weak ones, blaiming a piece of equipment for causing injuries or worse when it was used outside it's normal operating range is just useless finger pointing.

Reminds me a lot of THIS:

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

TRACY: We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

brainless babbling.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/15 15:47:36 UTC

Releases are an entirely different subject.

Yes. But you don't understand that.

A good release is only good if used when needed.

What the fuck would you know about a good release? You've never been within a thousand miles of a good aerotow release.

If the pilot waits to long...

Name a pilot who's waited too long. That's a bullshit line from the fatality report of the tow park operator who's just killed a student by selling him, training him on, and sending him up crap equipment.

...then the effectivity and safety available to the pilot can be missed completely, but that's not the fault of the equipment.

Of course not.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=592
Linknife

Sam Kellner - 2010/04/02 12:56:29 UTC

Re: Tad's release

Would/could not release at all. No better than any others.

Towing equipment is pretty much all the same. None of it's any better than anything else. If there were something really superior that someone worked his ass off developing and refining everybody would be already using it.

Jim Gaar - 2012/08/15 15:51:17 UTC

Seems to me you two are on the same page, just different paragraphs...

Gawd, I hope not.

Good thread.

Yeah. Thanks for starting it, hangster. And I really appreciate your burning curiosity and all your followthrough.

We need to read and think about these things every time we fly!

- Who's "WE"?

- No. WE don't need to think about this bullshit every time we fly. We need to use the best equipment available, understand the difference between a release and a weak link, use a one and a half G weak link, and then think about flying.

Sam Kellner - 2012/08/15 19:11:58 UTC

Zack speek

Paul are you on this page?

It's well known that if you put a heavy camera on a leading edge out near a wingtip it will cause a roll tendency. If the camera was in the same position but mounted to a beam attached to the keel at the hang point instead of the leading edge it would not (I think).

ZackC

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/15 19:16:50 UTC

Re: Zack speek

What page is that? I don't remember reading that one on here. Or are you referring to me possibly agreeing with that statement?

Wouldn't the same weight and moment arm with the long beam cause the same issue as mounting it on the leading edge?

Yes.

Zack C - 2012/08/15 19:55:45 UTC

My personal opinion is that ALL of the safety equipment I use is to protect me, not my glider, so I have to agree to disagree with anyone who says differently.

They're saying that the job of the weak link is to keep the glider from being overloaded - not to save the pilot if he fails to release.

Releases are an entirely different subject.

Which is why I put that comment in parenthesis.

If the pilot waits to long, then the effectivity and safety available to the pilot can be missed completely, but that's not the fault of the equipment.

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

Had that incident happened near the ground, resulting in a crash, would you blame the pilot?

There weren't any PILOTS anywhere near that clusterfuck. Pin benders on the back end and somebody irresponsible enough to tow pin benders on the front end.

Have you ever heard a pilot say that he would have released but needed both hands to fly the glider?

A PILOT doesn't go up with equipment that can put him in that position.

Have you ever seen an accident report where the pilot smashed into the ground while still attached to the tow line?

Paul doesn't do INCIDENT reports. He just expresses his idiot fucking opinions.

Don't you think the pilot would have released if he could have?

Why would anyone go to the trouble of releasing when he can just roll a little harder, push out, blow the weak link, and fly away?

A "good" release to me is one that:

1. Will always release when desired.
2. Will only release when desired.
3. Can be actuated with no loss of control.
4. Will actuate on the first attempt.
5. Will do the above up to a load greater than the maximum weak link breaking strength permitted by USHPA's SOPs.
6. Requires an actuation force at such max load of no more than 15 lbs.
7. Will release the line even with no tension on it.

Can't be done. Beyond the scope of human engineering.

Seems to me you two are on the same page, just different paragraphs...

Since Paul has yet to advocate any particular weak link strength, I'm not sure.

Of course not. Paul's a Standard Aerotow Weak Linker. Those assholes worship the Sacred Loop of 130 Pound Greenspot as the focal point of a safe towing system - and all know that the second they mention ANY kind of number - pounds or Gs - they can be ripped to shreds by any ten year old kid with an ounce or two of common sense.

My main point is that we should follow USHPA's recommendation and/or stick to the center of the FAA-mandated range, which almost no one is doing.

Which almost no one is even permitted to do - even before you account for the crap on the Dragonfly end.

What page is that? I don't remember reading that one on here.

It wasn't. I think it's an attempt to discredit me.

Too bad there was no date on it. If it was anything after 2011/11/14 it would be REAL easy to dismiss.

[Zack C]

If it's "some member" - singular - then why is he referred to as "they"?

To obscure gender...he was talking about one person. Not me...someone who mainly flies at the lake.

Launches are pretty consistent among HHPA members (not hard with platform...), and given the relative safety records of our club and SWTHG, I think I'll stick to what I'm doing...

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

I know. And I know that English has its share of awkward deficiencies. But there ARE ways to obscure gender without totally butchering the grammar.

Ferinstance:

I hope (s)he (re)thinks through what (s)he's doing...

Language is CRITICAL in this game and - while that sort of thing may seem a bit trivial - it's an indication that the author may be operating at a similar level of proficiency in the science, math, and logic departments. And those tend to be a bit critical as well from time to time.

Give the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden, a proofread sometime when you're a bit bored. They've got about half a dozen typos per page - along with lotsa references to towline PRESSURE. That's a pretty good warning sign that you probably oughta be going to the Glider Flying Handbook. And I don't recall finding any of those sorts of issues in Manned Kiting either.

Any idea what percentage of the SWTHG club members have been killed off in the space of the past couple of months? I'm guessing that it's something in the ballpark of what the Seventh Cavalry managed to pull off at the Little Bighorn.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/15 20:13:11 UTC

As far as what those others say, remember that they have never been on your end or my end or anyone else's end of the tow rope, only their own.

Yeah, the principles of physics for different individuals are so variable. In the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook there's a section on selecting releases and weak link ratings based upon astrological signs.

It's a different experience for everyone...

The blissfully ignorant and the dozen or so people who DON'T have their heads up their asses.

...and there will always be different opinions about it.

Just as long as assholes like you can get qualified by assholes like Dr. Trisa Tilletti.

I fly in my personal comfort zone.

Just like every other total moron who's connected himself to a rope was doing ten seconds before he was slammed back into the runway.

I have heard many accident reports over the years, I don't try to remember every detail.

It doesn't matter. You're totally incapable of learning shit from ANY of them anyway.

I just try to take away good information from the ones I read.

If I had your crippling intellectual deficiencies I'd have given up a long time ago.

I keep that in the mental file that helps keep the complacency away.

Yeah. You'll be be fine going up with Industry Standard equipment, weak links, and drivers as long as you're not complacent.

Just like Dr. Trisa Tilletti always says...

Anybody who is truly a good pilot, in any form of aviation, knows that the knowledge, skills, and judgement you have in your head, learned from thorough instruction from a good instructor with a good curriculum, are the best pieces of equipment you can fly with. Good equipment is important, the best equipment is a well-trained brain.

If someone flys with a release they can't reach when they need it...

Yeah asshole, as long as it's...

USHPA - 2011/11

A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot.

...within easy reach of the pilot there should be...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

I am personally familiar with such a problem, because it happened to me at a meet in Texas. Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike.

I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees.

I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed.

The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

...NO PROBLEM keeping things together when the shit hits the fan. Especially when you've got a standard aerotow weak link...

Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany.

...to put a safe limit on your climb.

...or it moves around when they are attempting to use it, it's an failure of the pilot to properly mount the release.

- Ever:
-- notice how no ten year old kid has ever crashed a bike 'cause he failed to properly velcro the brake levers to the handlebars?
-- consider the possibility that there's no fuckin' way to "PROPERLY" velcro a brake lever onto a downtube?

- Did you even fucking bother to read and think about THIS:

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less)...

part of the quote and consider the possibility that a downtube is no fucking way an acceptable location to mount a release actuator?

- Did you ever consider that the fucking manufacturers should all be stood up in front of walls and shot...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4411
Keel Attachment

John Moody - 2004/12/16 23:07:36 UTC
Conroe, Texas

What is not normal is to see a factory-made glider that has a built in nose attachment or keel attachment or even the keel release built-in, faired and clean - like a VG system is.

...for their gross negligence in shipping gliders to their tow park dealerships without properly engineered, built-in, faired, clean keel releases - up to the standards and reliability of their VG systems - knowing bloody goddam well that they're gonna send them up with slap-on shit that's killed people before?

Fuckin' goddam moron.

That puts us back to what I posted earlier about people always finding away around their safety equipment.

Lemme quote you something on this issue from someone who WASN'T a total douchebag:

Doug Hildreth - 1991/06
USHGA Accident Review Committee Chairman - 1981-1994

Pilot with some tow experience was towing on a new glider which was a little small for him. Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road. Amazingly, there were minimal injuries.

Comment: This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.

I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem. Think about it.

So listen up, napkin boy. I actually DID fix the problem - instead of just telling everybody how easy it would be for me to fix the problem if I really felt like it. So instead of running your fucking mouth about how people should be able to fly better with Industry Standard shit all over their gliders why don't you just shut the fuck up.

Nothing is or can be completely safe. We can only do our best to keep the risks at a minimum.

MY best is about a billion times better than the crap your caliber of total assholes are ever gonna be able to manage.

Your personal specs...

His PERSONAL specs?

...for a release are pretty much in line with what I prefer...

Oh really?

1. Will always release when desired.
2. Will only release when desired.
3. Can be actuated with no loss of control.
4. Will actuate on the first attempt.
5. Will do the above up to a load greater than the maximum weak link breaking strength permitted by USHPA's SOPs.
6. Requires an actuation force at such max load of no more than 15 lbs.
7. Will release the line even with no tension on it.

So which of those did you find the most objectionable?

...but others may have other opinions.

Yeah. In my opinion, for example, the release...

1. Will seldom release when desired - especially in emergency lockout situations.
2. Will blow at random every now and then.
3. Can't be actuated without putting the glider into a wingover.
4. Blows only after three or four attempts.
5. Locks up at about three quarters of a standard aerotow weak link.
6. At half standard aerotow weak link requires a fifty pound pull.
7. Won't dump the towline at anything under eighty pounds.

I'm also fond of something with...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318769461/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318781297/

...a reverse tapered gate on it.

That doesn't make them any less valid.

Of course not.

And when Bobby Bailey decided that all primary release mechanisms would be spinnaker shackles, all primary release lanyards would be cable velcroed to downtubes, all primary release actuators would be bicycle brake levers velcroed to downtubes, all secondary release mechanisms would be bent pins, all barrels would be fat and stubby, and all weak links would be loops of 130 pound Greenspot it was only after months of extensive polling to determine the consensus of opinion of prospective aerotow pilots.

And boy was he ever right. Mark Forbes, by way of example...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12443
AT regs

Mark G. Forbes - 2009/06/13 04:27:43 UTC
Corvallis

I just read the proposed changes that Tad posted. First I've heard of them. I know he was threatening to send a letter to the FAA, and I heard about *that*, but before that time I'd heard nothing. I wasn't in the aerotow committee meeting at the last BOD, because I was busy doing another committee at that time.

I have an assortment of concerns, starting with the use of the word "infallible" and continuing on from there. Partly what bothers me is that the proposed language doesn't reflect the current state of the art...

...prefers releases that jam frequently because they reflect the current state of the art - which Bobby established in the fall of 1991 - which now has a very long track record.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... No question whatsoever. You can tell by looking at the length of the track records of his designs.

Same deal when glider manufacturers were designing VG systems. They polled everyone and found that, while they didn't give rats' asses about their releases, they were very particular about engineering, functionality, reliability, aerodynamic cleanliness... cost and requisite complexity be damned.

No one else can discredit you, you can only do it to yourself.

Yes Zack, DO stop discrediting yourself by ignoring the opinions of Paul and the rest of the Jack Show pilot community.

Your posts are beginning to look a bit like you're becoming a Tad clone...

Yeah Paul, funny how after you've observed a lot of high school physics classes and REAL aviation ground schools and read the text books they all start sounding the same. So much more fun and interesting when you start giving weight to the opinions of everyone who wanders in off the street.

...so perhaps that provoked that other individual's post.

Keen observation, Paul. Sam's a big proponent of opinion based aviation as well.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg


You two pin benders should get along just fine.

Jim Gaar - 2012/08/15 20:18:56 UTC

You were doing great til this crept in Paul. Zack in no way comes across like Tad.

Nah, in no way whatsoever. Tad woulda realized what a life sucking waste of time it is to attempt to point out blindingly obvious stuff to total assholes like Paul and would've told him to go fuck himself after his first post.

Sam has his own Texas size agenda.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1081
Platform towing /risk mitigation / accident

Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC

No, you don't get an accident report.

Still, you are both making valid points and that could save lives!

Good job, Zack. You're keeping right up there with Paul. And where you differ we'll just average your opinions and come up with something that everyone can live with.

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/15 20:36:30 UTC

I was actually referring to the way his posts are becoming longer and divided up into many quotes as well as sometimes seeming to cover the same thing over and over again.

Yeah. He's making the mistake of assuming you're capable of learning anything at the second grade level.

Brian Horgan - 2012/08/15 21:11:40 UTC

keep at it zac,good luk with getting through,lol.

Yeah. When Zack says it it's valid...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13545
tow accidents

Brian Horgan - 2009/11/01 17:18:06 UTC

if you dont fly then shut the fuk up.

...because he goes flying on the weekends.

Fuck you Brian.