Despite the fact that hook-in checks really have nothing to do with launch sequences.
I'll share something I learned flying a back-plate-slider harness...
I had a launch where the slider was in the rear position (prone) rather than forward (upright). I leaned forward into my launch as described above, and as the glider lifted it felt like it was pulling me more prone. I was able to bend ninety degrees at the waist and keep running, even though my torso was fully prone. It felt wrong, and I didn't like it...
Now, as I get ready to launch...
While you're waiting in line behind the ramp.
...I do a hook in check and lift the glider high enough to pull my slider up as well, ensuring I'm launching with it in the forward position.
And then you can relax for five or ten minutes till it's your turn and climb onto the ramp fully confident that you're good to go.
I don't have a ton of flights on that harness, and even less since I started this technique... but it seems to be working quite well, so I thought I'd share...
Really appreciate it Ryan. Hard to imagine where this sport would be without the guidance and leadership of people of your caliber.
At the time I saw it at the USHPA BOD meeting I thought it was great. But I did have one criticism. It didn't show hooking in the harness to the glider first then getting into the harness. Not even as an alternative. When I mentioned this to Paul he didn't seem to be even aware of this as a safety issue.
So does my one criticism of the video mean that I hate Paul or that I shouldn't say anything or that I don't approve of what Paul did?
Nope, it means that I believe that there was one thing that could have improved the video. Improved safety. Improved it a substantial amount. Actually saved pilots' lives.
Davis Straub - 2009/01/03 20:50:24 UTC
Forbes Airport, New South Wales
Meanwhile there was dust devil carnage in the launch line. A dust devil happened right in front of Michael Williams and he and two other pilots who were hooked in were pulled up and flipped over. One pilot had two people trying to hold him down and they had to let go.
The pilots were okay and apparently the damage to the gliders can be repaired here in Forbes.
I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.
And inspiration for hang checkers everywhere.
I reported on it earlier in the Oz Report.
And I've so enjoyed your dissertations on weak links. Anything useful one needs to find out about hang gliding... The Davis Show is the place to go.
At the time I saw it at the USHPA BOD meeting I thought it was great.
I so do wish I could've been there at the premiere. It must've been DAZZLING!
But I did have one criticism.
REALLY? I thought it was flawless.
It didn't show hooking in the harness to the glider first then getting into the harness.
You're right. You really should include as many as possible of the assembly and preflight procedures you can use as to allow you to assume you're hooked in on the ramp and skip the hook-in check two seconds before running off it.
Not even as an alternative.
Yeah. The kind of alternative some people use and some don't, that's safely executed at some sites and in some conditions and not others, and one can use most of the time. It's really hard to go wrong when you're conditioning people launching and assisting with and observing launches that anyone in a harness is safely connected to a glider at all times.
When I mentioned this to Paul he didn't seem to be even aware of this as a safety issue.
Yeah, he's been in hang gliding since 1972, runs a hang gliding school, has been on the Board of Directors since 1989, has cowritten and hosted the national organizations video on unhooked launch prevention and he's NEVER EVEN HEARD OF the Aussie Method - or the USHGA regulation mandating a hook-in check JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH.
So does my one criticism of the video mean that I hate Paul...
No! Of course not! Just 'cause slimy motherfuckers don't see eye to eye on EVERYTHING doesn't mean they can't be good friends!
Hahahahahahahahaha
Oh that's just rich!
Riiiiiight... it's my attention span at issue here....
and I'm the one that's arrogant!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
No, I'm not being nice. No, I do not feel the need to be nice. You're trying to convince people to be less safe. I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
Rooney won't let anybody tow with a two hundred pound double loop weak link 'cause it:
- might not save him from a lockout it accordance with our expectation of a single loop of 130; and
- will critically endanger HIS end of of the towline (unless the glider's a tandem).
...use two hundred pounds. But I'm sure that deep down inside he still loves you.
Differences over numbers and procedures really don't make that much in the way of differences in people's feelings towards each other. You, Paul, and Rooney could all become staunch hook-in check advocates and go 250 on weak links tomorrow and I wouldn't have the least bit less contempt for any of you.
...or that I shouldn't say anything or that I don't approve of what Paul did?
As long as you're helping to put out information that gets people killed a couple of times a year what's it really matter?
Nope, it means that I believe that there was one thing that could have improved the video. Improved safety. Improved it a substantial amount. Actually saved pilots' lives.
...you don't even lift your glider high enough to cleanly clear the ramp even when there's enough wind to make wire crew advisable.
Anybody who's got two or more people on crew can get his wing up as high and with enough tension as he needs to do or check anything on the list. And you had two or more people on your crew.
Ryan Voight - 2012/08/30 18:03:48 UTC
It can/does slide down as you shuffle over to launch...
michael170 - 2012/08/30 22:11:15
It can/does slide down as you shuffle over to launch...
So the concept of doing a hook-in check ON launch and JUST prior to launch is still totally foreign to you.
Cut him some slack, Michael. He's a USHGA Regional Director and Instructor. Those guys all take a solemn oath to denigrate the importance of the hook-in check and expand the definition of "just prior to launch" as much as possible whenever the topic of unhooked launches is broached.
Just watch his dad's "safety" video if you don't believe me.
OK- how many times does he need confirm that he is hooked in? And when would be the best time to make that confirmation?
Brian McMahon - 2011/10/24 21:04:17
Once, just prior to launch.
Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC
I agree with that statement.
What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.
Look at your rating requirements. Do the number of hang checks specified in them.
Rob Kells - 2005/12
My partners - Steve Pearson and Mike Meier - and I have over twenty-five thousand hang glider flights between us and have managed (so far) to have hooked in every time. I also spoke with test pilots Ken Howells and Peter Swanson about their methods (another five thousand flights). Not one of us regularly uses either of the two most popular methods outlined above.
Do:
- the number that Rob Kells, Steve Pearson, Mike Meier, Ken Howells, and Peter Swanson typically perform prior to their flights
- as many as:
-- you need to discover whether or not your bar clearance has changed since last weekend
-- Michael has recommended in the course of this thread
We have now rounded up all the usual suspects and promised renewed vigilance, nine page checklists, hang checks every six feet, et cetera. Bob Gillisse redux.
Just every six feet - about one every two steps.
One every five seconds that I don't launch.
If you need the exercise. But if you're into frequency you could just do something like this:
Chris is doing hook-in checks about once every three seconds, without all that hassle, anybody holding his nose, and the possibility of fucking anything up each time. Plus it catches his leg loops and satisfies the requirement of his rating - which an idiot fucking hang check DOESN'T.
I literally had a hang check, took ten seconds to walk out on the ramp, stood there for fifteen seconds and launched.
GREAT KEITH!!!
That told you you were hooked in - but not that you had your leg loops - when you were lying down in your harness off the back of the ramp and before you got back on your feet, picked up your glider, took the ten second walk out onto the ramp, stood there for fifteen seconds, and ran off the front of the ramp.
I really admire your confidence in your memory and your courage! But I sure am happy that I've got virtually nothing in the way of either quality - and thus launch EXACTLY the way Chris does.
How many more do I need?
You don't NEED any more. In fact you didn't NEED that one - if you hadn't done that one you'd have been a lot less likely to execute that moronic stunt you pulled when you ran off a zero percent chance of survival cliff on the assumption that you were connected to your glider.
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH.
Give Jon Orders a call. He can tell you just how great that procedure of his you're using worked flawlessly for all of the untold thousands of his flying career but one.
Why don't you just FUCKIN' *DO* THAT instead of teaming up with Ryan and putting all your energy into coming up with scores of Bob Kuczewski caliber moronic and lunatic reasons why you shouldn't have to?
...has a really great launch technique. And each and every one of those other assholes woulda shortly wound up as a lifeless pulp below the ramp if he had been demonstrating his really great launch technique at Henson or Lookout.
As a direct consequence of his do-a-hang-check-at-the-back-of-the-ramp-and-assume-you're-hooked-in training and culture, Kunio Yoshimura, the first of those two guys...
Mark Johnson - 2008/08/31
Phoenix
As Mark Knight and I jumped in my truck to drive to the trail head, I could hear Kunio's kids crying, my heart sank even more, I felt sick.
...is gonna wind up as a lifeless pulp on the side of that mountain - Mingus - five days shy of a year beyond the upload date on the video.
fly,surf,&ski - 2012/08/31 19:56:48 UTC
Torrey Pines
Kermit Im guessing that is you?
Hard to tell. Could be anybody with an IQ in the really low double digits. And that doesn't narrow things down very much in this sport.
IMO that is excellent no wind radial ramp launch technique...
Ya know sumpin', fly? Whenever anybody in this sport offers an opinion about anything in this sport there's a 98 percent probability that I'm not gonna like it or him. Neither your opinion nor you are falling outside of my expectations.
IMO that is excellent no wind radial ramp launch technique...
Absolutely superb. But who gives a rat's ass? Radial ramps are so brain dead easy that there's only one really good way to kill oneself coming off one without trying real hard - and this shithead just demonstrated it.
FYI for newer pilots: take notice how his AOA changes as he is decending down the ramp...
FYI newer pilots: Take notice that...
- Angle of attack and:
-- pitch attitude aren't synonyms
-- airspeed ARE pretty much synonyms - you know the angle of attack and you know the airspeed (and vice versa)
- This glider's maintaining a constant pitch attitude but the angle of attack is decreasing due to the acceleration resulting from the thrust of the launch run and the force of gravity pulling it down away from the ramp.
Also FYI newer pilots...
Make sure you duplicate what this guy's doing to the letter. And, of course, totally ignore what THIS:
And I must commend you Mr.Fly Surf ski on your most excellent powers of observation.
Asshole.
Ryan Voight - 2012/08/31 20:38:23 UTC
Didn't see your hook-in check, therefore obviously you didn't do one.
- We see a thirty-two second interval between the beginning of the video and the beginning of the launch run in which there is nothing remotely resembling a check of any kind going on.
- What's the fucking regulation say - shithead?
The fact that you proceeded to do everything textbook perfect after that is irrelevant.
Here's what it says it the TEXTBOOK:
WITH EACH FLIGHT, DEMONSTRATES A METHOD OF ESTABLISHING THAT THE PILOT IS HOOKED IN JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH.
What part of that are you douchebags having such a hard time understanding?
We should revoke your ratings and take away your birthday for good measure.
He should have his scrotum turned into a little windsock down the ramp about fifteen feet as a reminder to all the other Chattanooga morons to follow the fucking regulations. And the heads of his instructor and Regional Director should be on pikes at the drive entrance to help people get in the right frame of mind while they're setting up their gliders.
Steven Leiler - 2012/08/31 21:11:17 UTC
You got me their, can't argue with that logic
At my age I don't need birthdays anymore
Truth be told I did about 3 hang checks before James would let me launch. He was pissey because except to fly I never tied my sneakers the hole Team Challenge,
their, pissey, hole...
Use punctuation at random as the mood strikes you...
Use commas and periods interchangeably (what the hell, they both look pretty much the same)...
And you set an equally fine example on the ramp.
The Team Challenge. That's where all you hang checking, hook-in check skipping, smartass motherfuckers set up the climate, environment, group mindset that made THIS:
Scott just informed me that Bill didn't make it. He died. The only other information I have is that no CHGPA or Blue Sky pilots were part of Bill's wire crew.
I don't know what else to say. I'm sitting here weeping for Bill. He was such a wonderful guy. So full of life and fun loving.
Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/04 13:03:47 UTC
Tuesday morning...
Daniel, Linda and I all left yesterday, and are back in Richmond now after a long drive home. I wanted to fly in Tennessee, and hoped after a day of reflection and the passage of time I'd be in a better frame of mind. It never happened. Night before last, I awoke in my hammock in the middle of the night, and in the dark silence could only think of Bill. His fatal launch just kept rolling over and over in my head like a cursed video.
Daniel thought he might be able to fly too, but like me, he realized it was impossible.
memorable PTSD inducing kickoff to the 2005 Team Challenge possible.
Three hang checks behind the ramp... Triple the:
- confidence that you're good to run off the ramp
- time you're allowed to wait for a cycle at launch position assuming you're hooked in
- likelihood of you surviving an unhooked launch
Didn't see your hook-in check, therefore obviously you didn't do one. The fact that you proceeded to do everything textbook perfect after that is irrelevant. We should revoke your ratings and take away your birthday for good measure.
Scott just informed me that Bill didn't make it. He died. The only other information I have is that no CHGPA or Blue Sky pilots were part of Bill's wire crew.
I don't know what else to say. I'm sitting here weeping for Bill. He was such a wonderful guy. So full of life and fun loving.
You make me sick, Ryan.
He's so blatantly slimy on this one. I think there's a glimmer of hope that he's gone a little too far this time.
We can't be afraid to talk to our fellow pilots when we see bad/dangerous habits. It's worth the possibility of offending them when we consider the downside of not saying something.
Do have anything to add, Paul?
Paul adding something substantive and positive in a forum battle? Get real.
Or are you content to hide behind the coward button?
The coward button has been serving him just fine for years. Why mess with success? (Whole fuckin' Jack Show is nuthin' but a giant coward button.)
michael170 - 2012/09/01 08:38:48 UTC
Keith Skiles - 2012/08/31 03:43:01 UTC
So tell me, oh wise one, how many, and how often should I do hang checks? A hang check every step forward on the ramp? One every five seconds that I don't launch. I literally had a hang check, took ten seconds to walk out on the ramp, stood there for fifteen seconds and launched. How many more do I need?
If this is not clear enough for you to understand then I don't know what else I could say to make it more clear.
George Whitehill - 1981/05
Just Doing a Hang Check is not Enough
A hang check shows the pilot that he/she is the correct height above the bar. It also assures the pilot that harness lines and straps are untangled.
The point I'm trying to make is that every pilot should make a second check to be very certain of this integral part of every flight. In many flying situations a hang check is performed and then is followed by a time interval prior to actual launch. In this time interval the pilot may unconsciously unhook to adjust or check something and then forget to hook in again. This has happened many times!
If, just before committing to a launch, a second check is done every time and this is made a habit, this tragic mistake could be eliminated. Habit is the key word here. This practice must be subconscious on the part of the pilot. As we know, there are many things on the pilot's mind before launch. Especially in a competition or if conditions are radical the flyer may be thinking about so many other things that something as simple as remembering to hook in is forgotten. Relying on memory won't work as well as a deeply ingrained subconscious habit.
In the new USHGA rating system, for each flight of each task "the pilot must demonstrate a method of establishing that he/she is hooked in, just prior to launch." The purpose here is obvious.
Oh ferchrisake. Haven't you been listening to Ryan patiently explaining to everyone how a hang check performed at any time at any place on the day of the flight - including in the LZ up to half an hour after landing or sunset, whichever comes last - satisfies the requirement?
Paul Hurless - 2012/09/01 09:00:45 UTC
Do have anything to add, Paul? Or are you content to hide behind the coward button?
I think my statement that you quoted pretty much speaks for itself.
1. Provide an example of you saying something you've said to one of YOUR fellow "pilots" when you've seen a bad/dangerous habit that carried a risk of offense.
2. There is NOTHING in hang gliding more lethally dangerous than running off a ramp - especially the one at Henson Gap - minus a verification of hook-in status IMMEDIATELY prior.
- You've just seen two videos of two assholes running off the Henson ramp without the slightest pretense of a hook-in check of any kind in the substantial delays between the starts of the videos and the runs off the cliff and open contempt for the regulation expressed.
- Were you saving your breath so you'd be better able to deal with the REALLY dangerous issue of launching with an unbuckled helmet?
3. So you're totally cool with Paul Voight's ratty little bastard denigrating the hook-in check regulation and encouraging everyone to ignore it?
Coward button?
Goddam right - motherfucker.
- Still waiting to see a sketch of your twenty dollar miracle KISS two point aerotow release.
- Engage Zack in the weak link thread and say something about Gs in a sentence - instead of talking about your fucking comfort level.
Your posts are beginning to look a bit like you're becoming a Tad clone...
Attack of the Tad Clones!!! My plan for world domination is succeeding! If only I could import more surrogate mothers from war torn regions of Central Africa.
...as evidenced by your lack of civility.
Along with his understanding of the issues and intolerance of idiots and evil little shits like Ryan.
Ya'll are to blame for the thread jack- not the troll: the ignore-button is there for a reason.
Fuck you Christopher.
P.S. I'm really sorry about you getting all your gear stolen in Rome - seriously.
P.P.S. But that's trivial to the kind of thing that can and does happen to people after assholes like you and assholes like Ryan (note that I'm not lumping you with that total piece of shit) teach or tell somebody it's OK to run off a ramp after last having done a check of some kind fifteen seconds ago.
First couple years of flying: I had the glider on my shoulders and was just repositioning my feet when stopped by a pilot. He had watched as I skipped the hang check and allowed me get all the way to commitment before sounding the alarm. I was unhooked. I couldn't stop shaking for the better part of an hour.
If only you had the ignore-button at your disposal on that occasion. Have you considered the use of ear plugs as part of your pre-launch strategy?
He doesn't need earplugs. There's something in the water in the Chattanooga area that fries all the logic circuitry in 99 percent of the people who drink it over a period of six months or more.
Paul Hurless - 2012/09/03 00:22:35 -- Sink This!
You are such a useless, gutless, stupid little worm, Paul. But don't worry - safety in numbers on The Jack Show.
