instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27073
Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagan
amsharma22 - 2012/09/06 19:15:05 UTC
India

Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagen

Please let me know links to: Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagan in pdf format.
Brad Barkley - 2012/09/06 19:23:06 UTC

I don't believe it is legally available in .pdf for a free download, and it shouldn't be...
Goddam right it shouldn't be. Dennis's stuff shouldn't be legally available in any form to anyone who hasn't passed a three hundred hour course learning how to spot all the deadly bullshit in the crap he writes.
He deserves to be paid for his work.
I'll drink to that. And I REALLY hope he is someday. Fuckin' Bill Bryden as well.
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

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http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27073
Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagan
Red Howard - 2012/09/06 19:34:36 UTC
Utah

Another beginner's HG manual is by Peter Cheney.
In conjunction with Matt Taber. Fuck it.
2012/09/07 02:28:08 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
Rodger Hoyt - 2012/09/07 00:42:10 UTC

Yes, I would recommend just about ANY manual other than Pagen.
So how come you hate him too?
If you get it online for nothing, that's about what it's worth.
You get an aviation manual that's not ONE HUNDRED PERCENT SOLID, it can be a thousand times worse than no manual at all.
Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).
Read the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook - which IS available as a PDF - and just make the substitutions as necessary. Trust NOTHING out of mainstream hang gliding.
2012/09/07 03:52:55 UTC - Sink This! -- Christopher LeFay
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

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http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27073
Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagan
Fred Wilson - 2012/09/07 01:34:51 UTC
Vernon, British Columbia

How many people here have read Dennis Pagan's Towing Aloft?
- Pagen. And - allegedly - Bryden.

- How many people who understand the differences between pressure and tension, a weak link and a release, bent and straight pins, and one and two handed glider control have read it and checked the spelling, math, science, logic, common sense, consistency, honesty, and conflict of interest issues?
Man - that is encyclopedic.
An encyclopedic load of total crap.
Hardly a book!
More like a really expensive supply of parrot cage lining.
From the looks of things it appears this is a new edition.
No. And if it were it would reflect the progression of degradation you can see by comparing Towing Aloft - 1998/10 to what's in the chapter of the same name in Performance Flying - 1993/04.
Mine's like a decade or more old.
Yours is like a bit under a decade and a half old. And the more pages that fall out of it the better it gets.
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27073
Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagan
Ryan Voight - 2012/09/07 01:57:24 UTC

Dennis gets no love...
Doesn't deserve any love. Deserves a stake through his heart.
It is hard to catalog all of the techniques used in all of the conditions in all of the world...
- Yeah. So just concentrate on the stupidest and shoddiest ten percent.

- If this moronic fucking sport had its shit together hang glider towing wouldn't be based on hundreds of idiot opinions and proven systems with huge track records.

-- Two point releases would all be built into the gliders, resemble VG systems, differ no more than VG systems from one glider to another, and function with the hundred percent reliability of VG systems.

-- Weak links wouldn't have a dozen different functions, be the focal points of a safe towing systems, and be graduated in direct proportion to the normal tow tension of the system and comfort level of the pilot. They'd all be one and a half Gs and there'd be a table to tell you what to use for your glider model.

-- Instead of a Pro Tip reading:
Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.
there would be Pro Tips reading:
The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release.
A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer.
Never take your hands off the bar.
-- You would not be able to go to the index and find a listing for "hook knife".
...and then translate that into something new pilots can digest.
Fuck that. New - and old - "pilots" can't digest shit like:
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line.
A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle with a breaking strength not less than 80 percent of the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle and not greater than twice this operating weight.
A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the towing aircraft with a breaking strength greater, but not more than 25 percent greater, than that of the safety link of the towed glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle end of the towline.
This release shall be operational with zero tow line force up to twice the rated breaking strength of the weak link.
The main reason - other than the inherent stupidity of the beast - that glider jockeys can't digest towing theory is 'cause they've been listening to assholes telling them that there's really no advantage to having both hands on the basetube during a low level emergency but, if they really feel they must, they can just roll the glider, push out, blow the standard aerotow weak link (they're called "weak" links for a reason), and fly back to the launch line for a relight.
I don't 100% agree with everything in the Pagen manual...
I wouldn't really expect you too. After all, hang glider towing is all based upon the experiences and opinions of various experts, and one expert's opinion is pretty much as good as another's. And where there are differences people can just agree to disagree.
...but that doesn't mean it's not an outstanding resource for new pilots.
Fuck you, Ryan. Gawd I hope somebody gets a good video of you trying to climb back into your control frame after you've decided that sixty seconds qualifies as just prior to launch or flying back to the launch line after an emergency actuation of your instant hands free release.
2012/09/07 03:54:00 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay
2012/09/09 06:22:11 UTC - 2 thumbs up - Fred Bickford
2012/09/09 14:03:03 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Allen Sparks
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27073
Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagan

from Ryan's "contribution" and up.

Our buddy Christopher has gone to the trouble of clicking condemnation of Rodger Hoyt's condemnation of Dennis and highest praise of fuckin' Ryan's defense of fuckin' same.

And Fred has edited in links to the rubbish Canadian Towing Procedures Manual, compiled by waste-of-space Gerry Grossnegger, and the brain damaged New Zealand Aero Tow Manual.

For a few comments on the latter...

http://www.kitestrings.org/topic48.html
AeroTow Manual from New Zealand
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

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http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27073
Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagan
Paul Walsh - 2012/09/07 12:22:58 UTC
UK

Dennis Pagan is a brilliant!!!!!
mrcc - 2012/09/07 12:39:18 UTC
Auckland
I second that. Image Image
Christopher LeFay - 2012/09/07 13:45:47 UTC

I might- were you to remove the indefinite article. As is, it begs to become a Mad Lib:
"Dennis Pagen is a brilliant ___________!!!!!"
Yeah, I can do something with that. I'll need more space though.

Dennis Pagen is a brilliant self serving, duplicitous, back stabbing, industry shill!!!!!

By the way, Christopher...

I find Graeme Henderson's assessment of you...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29177
How the first two Rogallo patents affected our sport
2012/09/05 08:59:39 UTC

...to be pretty spot-on.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27073
Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagan
Craig Hassan - 2012/09/07 15:55:17 UTC
Image
And Asshole Craig Hassan weighs in support of Asshole Ryan Voight's idiot post in support of Asshole Dennis Pagen's idiot book on towing. I so love it when that happens.
Fred Bickford - 2012/09/07 16:23:30 UTC
El Paso
Ryan Voight - 2012/09/07 01:57:24 UTC

Dennis gets no love...
Why? Image
'Cause he's a fraud. See above.
Dennis Wood - 2012/09/07 17:02:45 UTC

enough already!!!
Fuck you.
Dennis' book, like all other similar tomes...
Similar tomes like...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26302
HIGHER EDUCATION ?
michael170 - 2012/06/06 03:14:26 UTC

Did anyone here bother to read Drs. Lisa Colletti and Tracy Tillman's thirteen page idiotic article in the June issue of USHPA's worthless magazine?
NMERider - 2012/06/06 03:25:09 UTC

You are being much too complimentary IMHO. I got so nauseated reading it I had to take a breather. Do you mean to tell me they wrote an article that wasn't insipid and self-congratulatory to the extreme? I've found their entire series on aerotowing to come off rather poorly to say the least. A sad waste of such exalted and highly qualified medical professionals. How do I know this? Well they won't stop patting each other on the back about how great they both are.
Pardon me while I puke. Image
...the sewage with which Dr. Trisa Tilletti has been flooding USHGA's worthless magazine lately?
...requires a translator.
Assholes like you require translators for Dr. Seuss books. Don't you DARE presume to speak for anyone other than yourself - and Craig. And Kinsley. And... Oh, hell, go ahead and speak for everyone else with whom you're on good terms.
this translator is available at most HG schools, and is known as an "instructor".
Yeah. Go to to ANY flight park and have the senior "instructor" explain to you why the standard aerotow weak link for a 165 pound solo glider is the same and only acceptable standard aerotow weak link for a 365 pound solo glider. That just never gets old.
without said translator, these volumes could be dangerous to your health.
These volumes ARE dangerous to your health - especially when interpreted and reinforced by the kind of "instructor" who wouldn't IMMEDIATELY recognize these volumes as the loads of shit that they are.
with "instructor"...
I love the way you keep putting that in quotes.
...by your side, these books are invaluable, as no one student is capable of surviving all the possible mistakes presented to a dang noob.
Mistakes like:

- the standard aerotow weak link which, if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon) a proper aerotow weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble;

- the tug pilot you must always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out;

- the release within easy reach;

- being ready at all times to blow your backup release.

I got news for ya - asshole. NO ONE is capable of surviving all of the mistakes presented to the dang noob in this shit book and by any "instructor" who would expose ANYONE to the mistakes presented in this shit book. Sometimes a Hang Five can't survive just one or two of them.

And I'll tell ya sumpin' else...

- These bullshit tomes of Pagen's, Bryden's, and Tilletti's and the bullshit translations one receives from the "instructors" available at most hang gliding schools are all geared towards conning the student into believing that hang glider towing is a safe activity for anyone who swallows and digests the presentations. And that's a load of crap.

- Towing hang gliders is INHERENTLY dangerous because towed hang gliders are INHERENTLY roll unstable. And realization and acceptance of that fundamental physics nature of the beast is a mandatory foundation for making hang glider towing as safe and survivable as possible.
Fred Bickford - 2012/09/07 17:45:00 UTC

lots to learn Image Image
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27073
Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagan
mrcc - 2012/09/07 23:41:57 UTC
Ryan Voight - 2012/09/07 01:57:24 UTC

I don't 100% agree with everything in the Pagen manual... but that doesn't mean it's not an outstanding resource for new pilots.
I differ to say, his series of publication on HG are the best currently out there in the marketplace.
Yeah, his series IS the best currently out there in the marketplace.
Lockout Mountain Flight Park - 2009/07/12

The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 130-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link. We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with.
The problem is that the marketplace totally sucks because it's controlled by a cartel and everything that isn't total crap is excluded from it.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?
John Glime - 2009/04/13 18:09:32 UTC

Not being constructive? There is one person who has put more thought and time into releases than anyone. That person is Tad. He explains the pros and cons to every release out there. I gave you the link to more release information than the average person could ever digest, and I didn't get a thank you. Just you bitching that we aren't being constructive. What more could you want? He has created something that is a solution, but no one is using it... apparently you aren't interested either. So what gives??? What do you want us to tell you? Your concerns echo Tad's concerns, so why not use his system? Every other system out there has known flaws.
When the marketplace is a sewer sometimes ya gotta look outside of it to find stuff that doesn't stink on ice.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929
Training Manual Comments / Contribution
Bill Cummings - 2012/01/10 14:04:59 UTC

Tad's procedures for aerotowing should become part of any training manual.
Lotsa times you can get top notch information and people happy to help you with any questions for free.
For both new & older pilots.
Both new and older PILOTS will recognize it for the rot it is. New and older flyers don't stand snowballs' chances in hell of becoming pilots reading this crap.
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27073
Hang Gliding Training Manual by Dennis Pagan
Rodger Hoyt - 2012/09/07 00:42:10 UTC

Yes, I would recommend just about ANY manual other than Pagen.
If you get it online for nothing, that's about what it's worth.
Dustin George - 2012/09/08 19:06:17 UTC
Front Royal, Virginia

You don't think that is stretch?
No. It's a massive understatement.
I am a noob, but found it really helpful for a general basic understanding for everything.
If you're being taught total crap by an asshole like Steve Wendt and you read total crap by an asshole like Dennis you're gonna get a good general basic understanding for everything - but everything's gonna be total crap.

And lemme point a couple of things out to ya...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...

Image

Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
What you're reading in Pagen is TOTALLY INCOMPATIBLE with what your instructor is saying. Only one of those statements can be right.

And if you wanna get a feel for the more likely of the two candidates, watch what happens when Steve's tug pilot CUTS THE POWER...

http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report
Steve Wendt - 2005/05/29

Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.

The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first.
...making a good decision in the interest of Holly's safety.
Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Remain "locked in" behind the tow vehicle and you won't be locked out.

Lockouts do not just magically happen to snatch a glider from the sky. They are generally progressive events originating from situations that can usually be terminated. The pilot and tow team must recognize these situations and the potential for acceleration into full lockout conditions so they can take appropriate corrective action prior to occurrence.

The authors do not wish to scare you away from towing--quite the contrary. We have both experienced lockouts while surface towing and aerotowing with no ill effects other than early release.
Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
AT BEST these assholes are totally incompetent.

But if "several years" is any more than twenty-five months then the only reasonable conclusion one can draw from this glaring contradiction between what they're saying in this piece of shit book and what they KNOW is going on in the air is that these motherfuckers are flat out LYING to you.

And if they'll lie to you on this issue they'll lie to you about ANYTHING.

P.S. These motherfuckers are lying to you.

If "several years" is less than twenty-five months these motherfuckers have had almost a quarter century to put out a revised, nonfiction edition of Towing Aloft - or at least get this rot off the shelves, issue a recall, and publicize a retraction. But they keep selling this obscenity knowing perfectly well that it's full of rot that has gotten and will continue to get people killed.
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6120
Bridles and Releases
Tad Eareckson - 2007/01/04 04:39:07 UTC

If my designs are better (and they are - I've done my homework)...
Bill Bryden - 2007/01/05 16:52:14 UTC

How did your design fair in a Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (FMEA) and in Failure Mode and Effects Testing (FMET)? What were the results of performance tests like those in the Appendix III of Towing Aloft?

What were the sample sizes of repeated tests and number of product samples (ie were they statistically significant)?

Just a little aside observation: I have supervised many projects and engineers over the years. Oddly, there often is a correlation between the robustness of a design and the engineer's humbleness regarding it. Others also have a sense of that relationship and it affects our thinking, makes us wary.

Have fun.
Bill
Tad Eareckson - 2007/01/06 00:36:14 UTC

Hi, Bill, thanks for half of the book.

Regarding the FMEA/FMET - I don't have a clue what those are. When this headache starts going away maybe I'll google those terms and give it a boost.

The sample sizes for the tests I've done were, in all cases, One (1).

Yeah, I've transcribed Appendix III to my disk, taken some ideas, and substituted others.

Does the stuff you're flying with have all those stamps of approval? Does anybody's anywhere?

Take a look at Figure 2-7. That pilot starts locking out shortly after launch and hits the release but the bridle wraps. Is he still protected by a weak link? I am. That's better. What about your own rig?

Take another look at Figure 2-7. Is the actuation cable in or out of the airflow? Mine's out. That's better.

7-19. Can the gate on that release mechanism snag the weak link? Ask Robin Strid. Take a look at my primary release mechanism and ask the same question.

7-20. Ask Marc Fink what can happen if your bridle snags on an unnecessary piece of basetube mounted junk like that. I do the job better with a button.

7-12. Is there a thimble in the bottom end of the primary bridle to prevent abrasion and ensure that the secondary bridle doesn't jam in the event of secondary release actuation?

2-16 - Inset. Is there any sane reason for that pin to be curved? Why is the barrel tubing flared? Doesn't that make it more prone to catching on the basetube and thus terminating the tow? Last time I saw your coauthor he was flying with a pair of my barrels.

Page 288. Why does the secondary (shoulder to shoulder) bridle have to be long enough to wrap?

Page 289. What's so tough about incorporating a secondary release in a one point bridle assembly?

Is there anything in the book about blowing off tow with virtually no physical movement whatsoever? I (thanks, Steve) can separate with little more than a thought process.

Is there anything in the book that allows one hand termination of a one point aero tow in a slack line situation?

When Doug submitted his design did you address the grade school science core fatal flaw issue - that it was mechanically inefficient? I did. Tim Hinkel did - independently (more on him later).

(I won't pile on about the weak links 'cause everyone ('cept for, I suspect, a few smart Germans and me) are using the same crap.)

On to testing...

My required actuation tensions are fractions of the allowances in Appendix III.

My design philosophy with respect to releases and mounting components is - they gotta be substantially stronger than the weak link. My testing is done at Tuliptree Laboratories, Incorporated.

I go out to the back yard, tie ropes around a couple of trunks, slap a triple loop of 130 pound Dacron onto the release, crank up the tension with a winch, then slowly start taking up ratchet clicks with my arm trembling and heart pounding, and keep checking actuation resistance until the "weak" link explodes.

Then I come back inside, pour a stiff drink, and record the results. Good enough?

Got an old Bailey release of which you're not particularly fond? I know this happens at 220 pounds but you can probably get away with a lot less. Put a heavy leather glove on, load it up and pull the barrel. See what happens.

I think it's great to be wary. Trouble is, folk are insanely wary of better ideas and quite content with old dangerous garbage which continues to kill them. 'Member when the USHGA BOD - in its infinite wisdom - decided to censor, without a word to the membership, the series of Skyting articles from the magazine after Donnell's introductory submission? (Naw, just keep tying it to the control bar. We usually get off six or seven tows before we kill somebody.)

You might want to spend more time understanding the photos and documentation and less considering the source. I note, so far, the usual absence of anything along the lines of "This won't work because..." or "This could be done better by..."
Goodbye, click.

Motherfucker.
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