Is there any kind of requirement for local administrators of USHPA sanctioned flying sites to report accidents?
Yes... And instructors... And USHPA members...
Yeah Ryan. There are also requirements about hook-in checks JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH, minimum weak link ratings, and release capacities. But I don't see you or 99.9 percent of the other bozos in this sport doing jack shit about them.
It really peeves me when people want more out of the people that already do a lot, while many do nothing at all.
Nothing at all is what you and your dad should be doing - full time, preferably in another sport that doesn't involve movement of individuals, and preferably on some sparsely populated very remote island.
If you witness an accident, it's stupid easy to hit the USHPA site and report it. It doesn't matter how experienced you are, if you know why the accident happened, or if someone else reports the same accident.
Sam Kellner supposedly filed a fatality report on Terry Mason three and a half months ago.
- When do you think anybody's gonna be permitted to see it?
- How many platform tows do you think have been pulled subsequent to that crash?
A good poll would be, how long have you been a HG pilot, and have you EVER filled out an accident report?
Ya know what another good poll would be? Have you ever made changes in your procedures, equipment, teaching, or policies as a consequence of trends blindingly obvious in crash and fatality reports?
The community as a whole is to blame for our lack of data... If you're a part of the community, well...
The community as a whole is to blame for allowing assholes like you to remain as parts of the community.
Davis Straub - 2012/10/02 04:33:03 UTC
Speaking of assholes...
There is no justice in collective punishment.
All the sudden this asshole has in interest in justice. Fuck you, Davis.
Jatay - 2012/10/02 05:06:16 UTC
After reading section 03-16 of the USHPA Standard Operating Procedures, I would suggest an independent organization collect and disseminate accident data.
Give Kite Strings a shot.
USHPA should fund that entirely independent effort.
Get real. It's funding a lawyer to suppress any and all "accident" data which could diminish the likelihood of reruns.
Cost may be a factor during startup, but once an independent effort is established, it's possible the cost would be minimal relative to the benefits.
The immediate cost to USHGA would be that it would be sued out of existence.
There is always another perspective as I am sure is the case here.
Got a few hours?
I am certainly open to other perspectives.
There's only about one place you're ever gonna hear any.
I am not certain legal counsel is the first place an accident report should land in the reporting process.
Not USHGA's legal counsel anyway. Put it on the web, along with the video, IMMEDIATELY - and make sure the victim's family and ITS legal counsel get copies.
Of course not, Jack. It's a forum by a piece o' shit primary for pieces o' shit. And the kinds of people who use ignore buttons are - by definition - pieces of shit too stupid to be capable of not reading something without the help of a button. I'm only embarrassed that the best I remember beating the runner up by was only a factor of three.
I pulled up all the ratings of my posts. For topics and raters - positives are coded green, negatives red, neutrals black.
Also pulled up ratings of hostile posts (there were no rated supportive posts).
(Note... Although Helen's in red her post wasn't particularly hostile - just a defense / explanation of the Aussie Method. (She's a recovering Methodist / unhooked assumer now.))
To access the discussion plug the five digit number between the first post time and title onto the end of:
2009/04/12 02:08:10 UTC - 11497 - Aerotow release options?
- 116 - 2009/05/02 18:16:09 UTC - 2 thumbs up - Dave Boggs
- 119 - 2009/05/03 16:22:58 UTC - 3 thumbs up - John Glime
- 125 - 2009/05/04 20:29:11 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise
- 147 - 2009/06/20 03:37:08 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Axel Banchero
- 147 - 2010/09/08 21:49:38 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Steven Sims
2009/06/21 23:22:23 UTC - 12587 - weak links (here we go)
- 047 - 2009/06/24 23:16:38 UTC - Sink This! -- Jack Axaopoulos
2009/08/23 15:04:30 UTC - 13359 - Today was a bad day!
- 005 - 2009/08/25 03:24:58 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 005 - 2009/08/25 17:01:00 UTC - Sink This! -- Stewart LaBrasca
- 008 - 2009/08/25 03:24:39 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 011 - 2009/08/25 13:41:26 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 017 - 2009/08/26 13:20:06 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 022 - 2009/08/26 16:45:24 UTC - Sink This! -- Jaime Perry
- 037 - 2009/08/27 10:55:44 UTC - Sink This! -- xerxes - 037 - 2009/08/27 15:29:41 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise - 045 - 2009/08/27 19:54:20 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 051 - 2009/08/27 19:53:40 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 055 - 2009/08/29 03:40:34 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 066 - 2009/09/02 01:32:51 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 072 - 2009/09/02 01:33:15 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
2009/06/12 12:07:39 UTC - 12443 - AT regs
- 001 - 2009/06/12 12:08:48 UTC - Sink This! -- Allen Sparks
- 001 - 2009/06/12 14:40:40 UTC - Sink This! -- Richard Bryant - 001 - 2009/06/12 15:47:33 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise - 001 - 2009/06/12 16:04:24 UTC - Sink This! -- Dan Tuck
- 001 - 2009/06/12 16:38:38 UTC - Sink This! -- Tony Estrada
- 001 - 2009/06/12 16:42:12 UTC - Sink This! -- fakeDecoy
- 003 - 2009/06/13 04:58:09 UTC - Sink This! -- Marco Weber
- 012 - 2009/06/12 19:44:08 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley - 012 - 2009/06/12 20:12:11 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise - 015 - 2009/06/14 04:35:48 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 016 - 2009/06/14 04:35:59 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 017 - 2009/06/13 23:51:08 UTC - Sink This! -- Marco Weber
- 019 - 2009/06/15 10:39:03 UTC - Sink This! -- Allen Sparks
- 019 - 2009/06/15 13:47:19 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless
2009/10/03 13:34:58 UTC - 13864 - My new wing
- 006 - 2009/10/04 16:40:48 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 009 - 2009/10/04 16:09:13 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 012 - 2009/10/04 16:09:22 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
2009/06/18 11:26:57 UTC - 12536 - standard operating procedures
- 001 - 2009/06/18 13:36:58 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley - 001 - 2009/06/18 15:55:04 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise - 001 - 2009/06/19 16:03:49 UTC - Sink This! -- Allen Sparks - 001 - 2009/06/19 19:52:59 UTC - 3 thumbs up - handgliderguy - 006 - 2009/06/18 13:36:44 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley - 006 - 2009/06/18 16:02:53 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise
- 006 - 2009/06/19 19:53:35 UTC - 3 thumbs up - handgliderguy - 012 - 2009/06/19 19:54:24 UTC - 3 thumbs up - handgliderguy
- 015 - 2009/06/19 19:57:53 UTC - 3 thumbs up - handgliderguy - 056 - 2009/06/21 13:24:20 UTC - Sink This! -- Allen Sparks
2009/05/14 20:17:53 UTC - 11998 - Tad Report...
- 017 - 2009/06/16 05:36:44 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
2009/06/09 17:30:31 UTC - 12403 - weak link table
- 001 - 2009/06/10 13:30:15 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley
- 001 - 2009/06/10 14:46:03 UTC - Sink This! -- xlq - 001 - 2009/06/10 15:28:29 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise
- 001 - 2009/06/11 09:21:17 UTC - 3 thumbs up - ian9toes
- 001 - 2009/06/12 00:47:45 UTC - Not Applcbl - Fred Bickford - 002 - 2009/06/10 13:30:32 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley - 002 - 2009/06/10 14:50:29 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise - 016 - 2009/06/12 00:24:58 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless
- 016 - 2009/06/12 00:46:53 UTC - Sink This! -- Fred Bickford - 016 - 2009/06/12 02:13:40 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise - 016 - 2009/06/12 02:27:36 UTC - Sink This! -- Allen Sparks
- 016 - 2009/06/14 18:32:52 UTC - Sink This! -- Glenn Zapien
2009/09/05 16:27:55 UTC - 13545 - tow accidents
- 001 - 2009/09/05 22:01:51 UTC - Sink This! -- Marco Weber
- 005 - 2009/09/06 03:48:46 UTC - Sink This! -- Chris Valley - 053 - 2009/09/12 16:17:31 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Joe Faust
2009/09/26 15:44:31 UTC - 13785 - Old cables
- 002 - 2009/09/27 18:46:03 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Bob Kuczewski
- 008 - 2009/09/27 18:44:45 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Bob Kuczewski
Look at the patterns.
Also pulled up ratings of friendly and hostile posts in all the discussions I've started or in which I've participated and in a couple of the ones in which I've been discussed.
2009/04/12 02:08:10 UTC - 11497 - Aerotow release options?
-Rick Maddy
- 028 - 2009/04/13 16:23:30 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise
- 028 - 2009/04/13 17:34:03 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Red Howard
-Scott C. Wise
- 029 - 2009/05/03 01:58:43 UTC - 3 thumbs up - handgliderguy
-Scott C. Wise
- 035 - 2009/05/03 01:59:49 UTC - 3 thumbs up - handgliderguy
-Scott C. Wise
- 037 - 2009/05/03 02:00:29 UTC - 3 thumbs up - handgliderguy
-Scott C. Wise
- 050 - 2009/05/03 02:03:46 UTC - 3 thumbs up - handgliderguy
-Scott C. Wise
- 052 - 2009/05/03 02:04:28 UTC - 3 thumbs up - handgliderguy -Craig Hassan
- 076 - 2009/05/06 22:58:07 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Tony Estrada
-Jim Gaar
- 110 - 2009/05/06 12:48:53 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Matt Pericles -Helen McKerral
- 152 - 2009/06/30 00:57:32 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise
-Adi Branch
- 174 - 2009/07/02 19:29:32 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise
2009/06/29 03:51:02 UTC - 12682 - Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous
-Jason Boehm
- 001 - 2009/06/29 04:32:14 - 2 thumbs up - Fred Bickford -CAL
- 007 - 2009/06/29 19:44:33 UTC - 3 thumbs up - xlq
2009/08/23 15:04:30 UTC - 13359 - Today was a bad day!
-Aaron Swepston
- 006 - 2009/08/25 03:50:06 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
- 006 - 2009/08/25 17:01:33 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Stewart LaBrasca
-Matt Pericles
- 010 - 2009/08/25 03:24:27 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
- 010 - 2009/08/26 14:36:10 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Judy Phillips
-Helen McKerral
- 014 - 2009/08/26 01:27:55 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Dawson
- 014 - 2009/08/26 12:45:31 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Red Howard
- 014 - 2009/08/26 14:37:36 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Matt Pericles
-Mike Bomstad
- 015 - 2009/08/26 06:46:19 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Dawson
- 015 - 2009/08/26 14:37:56 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Matt Pericles
-fakeDecoy
- 016 - 2009/08/26 16:59:46 UTC - 3 thumbs up - j120bowman
-Jaime Perry
- 020 - 2009/08/26 15:25:55 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Matt Pericles
-Jaime Perry
- 025 - 2009/08/27 14:28:44 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Judy Phillips
-Rob McKenzie
- 027 - 2009/08/26 17:29:34 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar
-xerxes
- 039 - 2009/08/27 12:02:11 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Matt Pericles
- 039 - 2009/08/27 14:31:10 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Judy Phillips
-Holger Selover-Stephan
- 047 - 2009/08/27 18:40:37 UTC - 3 thumbs up - fakeDecoy
-Holger Selover-Stephan
- 053 - 2009/08/27 19:53:52 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-flyhg1
- 057 - 2009/08/29 03:40:06 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-Mike Bomstad
- 065 - 2009/08/30 13:06:07 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Richard Bryant
-PilotGuy - 074 - 2009/09/01 03:59:23 UTC - 3 thumbs up - handgliderguy - 074 - 2009/09/01 14:41:43 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Judy Phillips
-Steve Forslund
- 080 - 2009/09/02 13:49:41 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-woodysr2
- 104 - 2009/09/06 13:46:00 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Matt Pericles
-Richard Bryant
- 118 - 2009/09/14 13:26:21 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-Richard Bryant
- 125 - 2009/09/16 13:29:17 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Marco Weber
2009/06/07 15:43:29 UTC - 12356 - dont be a fag
-John Peace
- 024 - 2009/06/14 17:38:58 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
-John Peace
- 029 - 2009/06/14 17:38:58 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
-Brian Horgan
- 030 - 2009/06/14 17:41:12 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
2009/06/12 12:07:39 UTC - 12443 - AT regs
-Mark G. Forbes
- 013 - 2009/06/15 00:59:20 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Matt Pericles
-Linda Salamome - 026 - 2009/06/19 23:59:06 UTC - Sink This! -- handgliderguy
2009/06/21 23:22:23 UTC - 12587 - weak links (here we go)
-Axel Banchero
- 016 - 2009/06/22 19:05:14 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Scott C. Wise
2009/07/10 14:33:28 UTC - 12813 - My 2nd mountain launch
-Matt Pericles
- 018 - 2009/07/14 01:53:54 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Judy Phillips
-Glenn Zapien
- 021 - 2009/07/11 22:40:30 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Fred Bickford
2009/09/23 18:43:41 UTC - 13745 - Good News vs Sad News
-Chris Valley
- 026 - 2009/09/24 14:39:56 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
-bagbgone
- 027 - 2009/09/24 14:40:03 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
John Borton
- 125 - 2009/09/29 22:40:25 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Helen McKerral
-BJ Herring
- 149 - 2009/10/01 22:43:11 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Helen McKerral
2009/10/03 13:34:58 UTC - 13864 - My new wing
-Frank Peel
- 007 - 2009/10/04 16:04:37 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
-Red Howard
- 008 - 2009/10/04 16:40:34 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-Brian Horgan
- 010 - 2009/10/04 16:40:10 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-Brian Horgan
- 011 - 2009/10/04 16:40:21 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-gluesniffer
- 016 - 2009/10/04 18:45:16 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
-Nibs
- 021 - 2009/10/06 16:45:11 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Judy Phillips
-gluesniffer
- 051 - 2009/10/06 01:36:41 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
-Jack Axaopoulos
- 058 - 2009/10/06 16:52:11 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Judy Phillips
- 058 - 2009/10/06 20:00:02 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Dave Aldrich
2009/06/18 11:26:57 UTC - 12536 - standard operating procedures
-Tony Estrada
- 005 - 2009/06/19 00:18:04 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Marco Weber
-Robert Seckold
- 021 - 2009/06/19 14:18:10 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-Marco Weber
- 022 - 2009/06/19 14:17:59 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-Jack Axaopoulos
- 033 - 2009/06/19 14:20:39 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-Robert Seckold
- 034 - 2009/06/19 14:19:58 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-Jack Axaopoulos
- 040 - 2009/06/19 15:59:59 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Matt Pericles
2009/05/14 20:17:53 UTC - 11998 - Tad Report...
-Paul Hurless - 007 - 2009/05/14 23:02:18 UTC - Sink This! -- Scott C. Wise - 007 - 2009/05/15 00:39:32 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Holger Selover-Stephan
2009/06/09 17:30:31 UTC - 12403 - weak link table
-Holger Selover-Stephan
- 017 - 2009/06/12 00:25:26 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless
-Jack Axaopoulos
- 026 - 2009/06/13 23:47:48 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Marco Weber
2009/09/05 16:27:55 UTC - 13545 - tow accidents
-Dennis Wood
- 002 - 2009/09/06 03:40:12 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
-Dirk Morris
- 004 - 2009/09/06 03:48:36 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Chris Valley
2012/02/20 21:11:34 - 25302 - Interview with Davis Straub, OzReport founder
-NMERider
- 007 - 2012/02/21 00:58:37 UTC - Not Applcbl - Brian Horgan -Paul Hurless
- 013 - 2012/02/21 03:19:44 UTC - Sink This! -- Kostya Marchenko - 013 - 2012/02/24 05:26:47 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Mike Bomstad -Newton
- 014 - 2012/02/21 03:19:34 UTC - Sink This! -- Kostya Marchenko - 014 - 2012/02/24 06:07:24 UTC - Sink This! -- Mike Bomstad-Paul Hurless
- 015 - 2012/02/21 03:19:11 UTC - Sink This! -- Kostya Marchenko -Paul Hurless
- 020 - 2012/02/21 13:11:20 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Sam Kellner -Newton - 022 - 2012/02/21 05:11:40 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless
-Dan Johnson - 027 - 2012/02/21 22:57:42 - Sink This! -- Brent Benoist -Jack Axaopoulos
- 069 - 2012/02/25 09:42:01 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
-Dan Johnson
- 083 - 2012/02/25 13:38:08 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Sam Kellner
Again... Look at the patterns.
I'm pretty proud of those records and fuck you and your cult, Jack.
Seems like there would be a wealth of information available from an accident archive.
For over thirty years we've KNOWN *EXACTLY* what crashes gliders and what to do about the issues. If tomorrow somebody ends up in the emergency room, shock trauma unit, or morgue, I one hundred percent guarantee you that you'll be able to go to the magazine archives from the early Eighties and pull up a detailed account of exactly what happened and the events which led up to it.
There are no "accidents" and there are no lessons to be learned from any crashes, nobody's inventing any new ways to crash, and the fixes are and always have been easy, simple, and obvious.
Why the black hole?
The black hole exists because the industry doesn't want people to see the patterns and how dangerous it's made the sport through its stupidity, incompetence, negligence, ass covering strategies, and callousness.
The vast majority of fixes involve using takeoff and landing techniques and engineering which permit the pilot to...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
by Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
...keep both hands on the basetube at all times that the glider's within a couple of hundred feet of the surface.
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.
...then resolve never to land in dangerous fields which require dangerous standup landings and do not practice them. Sometimes it just takes ONE mistimed flare or inconveniently timed gust to turn this sport into something that wasn't even close to having been worth it.
If you're towing DO NOT foot launch if the terrain permits - and in this country it almost always does.
The trick in the safety game is not so much...
Jatay - 2012/10/02 02:50:59 UTC
Maybe folks don't want this kind of reporting in place; seems to me the sport is destined for known, repetitive mistakes without some form of required, formalized reporting that would generate an indicator as to which skills are in need of additional emphasis.
...to emphasize skills. We've been emphasizing...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...standup landing skills since the beginning of time and that strategy has been a perpetual dismal failure. The trick is...
Oh, that's so much more brainless than landing on your feet! Who cares if it's downwind!
...to eliminate the need for skill in critical operations.
Note that of the dozen people who've ever posted on this forum at least two of them have suffered rather devastating arm and shoulder injuries on landing that wouldn't have happened had they bellied in with their hands on the basetube.
Contrary to Red Howard's misprioritization they're a lot more demanding than cliff launches.
Platform launches...
Zack C - 2011/03/04 05:29:28 UTC
As for platform launching, I was nervous about it when I started doing it. It looked iffy, like things could get bad fast. I've since logged around a hundred platform launches and have seen hundreds more. Never once was there any issue. I now feel platform launching is the safest way to get a hang glider into the air (in the widest range of conditions). You get away from the ground very quickly and don't launch until you have plenty of airspeed and excellent control.
...are at the other extreme because you have your hands on the basetube at all times and they require no more skill than the ability to pop a nose release when the airspeed is around 25 to 30 miles per hour. If there's been a blown platform launch in the history of the sport I haven't heard of it and, for similar reasons, it always takes a bit of dedication to fuck up a dolly launch.
Thanks in no small part to Donnell Hewett and his promotion of his certifiably insane ideas that a light weak link could be used as an emergency release and a crutch/backup/substitute for a release that stinks on ice - like virtually all of them do - the thing that's most likely to crash in a tow launch...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...is a little loop of fishing line manufactured by the Cortland Line Company. If you're flying a Sport 2 155 - which, with your 190 pound body weight, you should be (rather than the 175) - you want to be flying with a weak link that will blow at 465 pounds - one and a half times the 310 pound maximum certified operating weight of that glider (and good luck getting the douchebag in the Dragonfly to get his end legally compliant).
While on a tow launch a blown Hewett Link is the thing most likely to crash you the thing most likely to kill you is an Industry Standard release "within easy reach" - because when the shit hits the fan there is no more such a thing as "within easy reach" than there is a weak link which will blow before you can get into too much trouble or a safe shock absorbent runway. And anybody who tells you different...
If it's got to the point where you have to release because of an impending lockout, taking your hands off the control bar won't make much of a difference.
...is a dangerous nut job who is seriously detached from reality. Towing hang gliders is INHERENTLY DANGEROUS and you wanna have everything possible going for yourself BEFORE you connect to the string. You need to have maximum control over the situation and be the one making and executing the go / no go calls - without delay or control compromise - at all times.
Lastly but about as far as you can get from leastly...
- If you it's really important to you to be hooked in behind the ramp a minute or two before you launch...
- We have all the data we really need to know what the problems are. Learn from the good reports we used to get in Doug Hildreth's era.
- Solid Hang 2.5 skills are all you need to keep from crashing and/or getting hurt. If you need anything better than that you screwed the pooch by putting yourself in a situation in which your safety is now dependent on having and being able to execute skills exceeding the Hang 2.5 level.
- Putting yourself in situations which require skills in excess of the 2.5 level is a really bad strategy for your long term health and survival. Old pilots, bold pilots... You've heard it.
- Always execute the safest landing for the situation. You are very likely to pay a very high price for always practicing a dangerous emergency landing for a hypothetical emergency situation you could have easily avoided.
- Judgment and solid procedures are twenty or thirty times more important than skill in ensuring that you end the day with your glider and body still airworthy and ready to go again next weekend.
- Hang glider towing culture is a major disaster area. Trust NO ONE who tells you that you should trust him because of his twenty years of experience. That's a sure tip-off that he has no clue whatsoever what he's talking about, no hope of ever finding out, and is trying to pull a snow job. There's nothing in towing of any practical value that can't be learned, explained, understood in two minutes or less.
Thanks much. (It took pretty much all freakin' yesterday.)
And hopefully it'll sink in 'cause Jonathan's saying the EXACT SAME THING over on The Jack Show.
More to come, back to work, must destroy Ryan.
If, like cycling, one elects to make it one - yeah. But all we're talking about is a flavor of sailplane.
People get hurt.
People get hurt playing soccer and baseball.
What I can suggest is you participate in your local HG club...
Fuck my local club. As far as I can tell... Fuck all of 'em.
Show me ONE that's got its:
- shit together on safety issues any better than another.
- members complying with the regulation on hook-in checks JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH or aerotowing with weak links in compliance with FAA regulations and/or releases which comply with USHGA SOPs.
...and communicate with others if you want to know more about mishaps.
Then what's the purpose of having a national organization?
Dan Harding - 2012/10/03 13:39:40 UTC
Some people feel that pilot error is not the same as an accident, so they do not report it.
They're right.
When Mitch tries to goes up with a standard aerotow weak link and trashes the keel of his T2C trying to land that's not an accident - that's solid pilot error. 'Cept, of course, Mitch isn't actually a pilot - just a stupid hack who flies hang gliders. But you know what I mean.
It is, however, a rather significant INCIDENT.
But...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
I went to Chelan for the Nationals in '95 as a free flyer. They were requiring everyone to use the Australian method, and you were also not allowed to carry a glider without being hooked in. This was different for me, I hook in and do a full hang check just behind launch right before I go. I was also taught to do a hooked in check right before starting my run, lifting or letting the wind lift the glider to feel the tug of the leg loops.
So I used their method and I'm hooked in, carrying my glider to launch and someone yells "Dust devil!" Everyone around runs for their gliders (most of which are tied down) and I'm left standing alone in the middle of the butte with a huge monster wandering around. I heard later that it was well over three hundred feet tall, and some saw lightning at the top. After that it was clear that no one is going to decide for me or deride me for my own safety methods, someone else's could have easily got me killed.
...how much good does it do to report incidents when the only standards that are implemented and enforced are dangerous and illegal ones?
2012/10/03 14:43:11 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Fred Wilson
Wes - 2012/10/03 15:16:40 UTC
Salt Lake City
So what is an accident and what is reportable? Blow a launch and total the glider but the pilot only has bumps and bruises, reportable? My opinion is if someone, pilot, passenger, or spectator, requires medical attention it is definitely reportable. Say a paraglider requires search and rescue to pull them off a cliff, reportable?
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
Not reportable 'cause it all happened at fifteen hundred feet. Just another flight to contribute to Quest's long and enviable track record.
Jim Gaar - 2012/10/03 16:33:52 UTC
Wes I believe that any incident should be reported so that others may learn from the experience.
- Fuck you, Jim.
- Since when did people in hang gliding gain the ability to learn from anything?
One does NOT need to be hurt in an incident/accident to make that particular experience a good learning tool for others.
Wes, I believe you'd hafta kill twenty people in the span of a weekend before the intellectually castrated participants in this sport started getting a fuckin' clue that there might be some kind of problem.
There is also the point of repetition. If the industry sees a trend then that trend can be addressed properly through training or other means.
- more ambulances on standby at launch
- CPR certification
- lighter weak links
- earlier releases
- stretchier towlines
- Cone of Safety training
- sharper hook knives
- better helmets
- nine page checklists
- hang checks every six feet
- heavier carabiners
- unhooked launch clinics
- landing clinics
- more Pagen books
If the industry sees a trend I one hundred percent guarantee you that it will do everything it possibly can to bury every trace of evidence of the fixes that, thirty years ago, were identified, written into SOPs, and totally ignored.
Manta_Dreaming - 2012/10/03 05:09:30 UTC
Hang gliding is an extreme sport.
I tend to disagree with this statement. YMMV.
It doesn't.
NMERider - 2012/10/03 16:55:04 UTC
I fully agree with everything including the sentiment that HG is NOT an extreme sport.
HG is a form of aviation and is unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity, or neglect.
Hear, hear.
One reason we will never see thorough, accurate, and objective accident and incident reporting is the common tendency to publicly and privately blame and ridicule the individual who experienced the incident.
Especially when he's dead and the owner of the school that trained, rated, equipped, and towed him is writing the "accident" report and sitting on the Board of Directors and Towing and Safety and Training Committees.
The rate of malicious and even grossly inaccurate gossip and personal maligning that goes on in this sport is a sad situation.
Unless you're Jim Rooney, launch the tandem ride unhooked, and dive the glider with its passenger into the powerlines. Then everybody prays for your recovery and hails you as an expert on unhooked launch incidents.
Not just on the Org, ORF or other online venues but around club LZs and in text messages, emails, PMs, phone calls, etc. You name it - I've seen it or heard it.
I'm Tracy Tillman, on the USHPA BOD, on the Tow Committe, and I am an Aviation Safety Counselor on the FAA Safety Team (FAAST) for the Detroit FSDO area. As a rep of both the USHPA and FAA, I would like to help you, USHPA, and the FAA improve safety in flying, towing, and hang gliding.
The FAA gets a lot of letters of complaint from a lot of yahoos...
Without naming names (I'm curious to see if they'll own up to it first), on May 10, 2009, one Director wrote:
We need to consider getting an injunction against this guy communicating with the FAA on this subject.
That same day, another Director responded:
I forwarded the letter to Tim Herr yesterday asking about this.
For those who don't know, Tim Herr is ... USHPA's lawyer!!
A third Director (who I'll call "Mr. X") chimed in that same day with this:
Perhaps a strongly worded letter from Tim will do the trick. We can't force Tad to work within the USHPA framework but we can make it unpleasant and expensive for him if he chooses to makes derogatory and false statements about USHPA to the FAA he can't back up.
AT, your continual bashing in general and bashing of HG schools has gotten really old. AT parks have solid safety records, so what you say and reality seem to be quite far apart.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
...someone works his ass off to try to get existing regulations enforced and sane, safe policy implemented?
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
Think there's any possibility that he's at least as full of shit on towing as he is on landing?)
This sport suffers from a kangaroo court with Howdy Doody's Peanut Gallery jury box mentality.
Tell me about it.
Not only are personal attacks too often leveled against the hapless pilots but the rate of factual inaccuracy is absurd.
Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
If the gate is found closed on Mike Haas's Wallaby-style tow release it's OBVIOUSLY 'cause he made no attempt to blow tow - it couldn't POSSIBLY be 'cause there was no way in hell he could get to it - like the tens of thousands of other Wallaby-style tow release owners who are pretty much entirely dependent on their 130 pound Greenspot instant hands free releases for lockouts at altitude.
Until the sport as a whole chooses to pull its collective head out from deep inside its own butt, I can't see good accident/incident reporting happen in any meaningful way.
It won't. With each passing year its collective head goes another two or three millimeters up its butt and I see NOTHING on the horizon that's gonna reverse that trend.
Just so I make my point clear, this was me being polite and mincing my words. So, a certain portion of pilots will continue to be killed, paralyzed, and injured needlessly AFAIC.
And we're gonna hear less and less about the factors in and dynamics of the incident and more and more about...
Bill Priday was killed after he launched unhooked from Whitwell and after turning down at least one person (and maybe more) who asked him if he wanted a hang check. He did the same thing at the Pulpit just a couple weeks prior to the Whitwell incident and that error was pointed out by someone on the ramp before he launched. He was clearly an accident waiting to happen.
The first thing I learned to do in the field at Lookout was a hang check. I was told a story by my instructor about the then-recent death of a pilot who launched without being through his leg loops. The instructor called this pilot an 'idiot'. This is how I was taught to think from Day 1.
...what an idiot the victim was.
Now that I've got a few people's attention what I would like to see is accident prevention reporting.
Check out some of my Jack Show threads that have been locked down and/or relegated to The Basement.
Zack figured it out. Well done Zack! Enjoy your vacation.
Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC
Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!
I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???
Right.
I see far too much attention on the negative and too little on the positive. I like reading about how accidents and incidents were prevented and how an injury or death was avoided.
Well, very simply we could make a new rule for competition. If you are seen in your harness but not hooked into your glider you are automatically disqualified.
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
Glad to see you didn't scratch the glider and even got to stay on the right side of the grass another day
Diev Hart - 2009/12/02 06:45:13 UTC
Good job in getting the gear out and down...
Socrates Zayas - 2009/12/02 15:50:38 UTC
Good save!
Rolla Manning - 2010/02/26 03:00:51 UTC
WOW Spark Great save (nice reflexes for an OLD GUY).
Bill Bennett - 2010/03/15 16:36:42 UTC
Great job keeping cool under pressure! Nice job getting off the line and continuing to pilot the glider.
Great Post!
Enjoy the skies!
Wanna tell me about the great job I did using a one and a half G weak link, safely clearing launch, getting to release altitude uneventfully, and not making the Ridgely assholes hafta do a Dragonfly turnaround for a second shot while everybody baked in line behind me? (Nah, I didn't think so.)
Yes, it's boring but the pilot gets to fly again and again rather than being laid up or laid to rest.
- WE don't need to hear about people doing stuff right and having good days or people screwing pooches and getting crashed, injured, crippled, killed. If we didn't have assholes like Ryan, Matt, and Trisa controlling policy and running the "instructional" programs we could make this sport twenty times safer and spend a lot more time flying and focusing on the positive stuff. But we DO have assholes like Ryan, Matt, and Trisa controlling policy and running the "instructional" programs so our priority has to be getting their fucking heads on fucking pikes.
- But because we don't have their fucking heads on fucking pikes we also have to REALLY focus on the negative and make the patterns of what's actually going on as clear as possible to protect the new students like Jatay from the distortions and lies they're being fed.
- And even if we had this sport under something resembling responsible control we'd still want to be focusing on the disasters because that's the ONLY way we can ever hope to move in a positive direction. Otherwise we continue to have everybody using locking carabiners and backup loops to protect against totally nonexistent disasters and standard aerotow weak links to introduce them.
So if flying through the air isn't an extreme sport, what is?
Whipstalling two feet off the deck within five feet of a traffic cone in the middle of the Happy Acres putting green so you can perfect your ability to land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place and towing up using Industry Standard equipment on a piece of fishing line just barely strong enough to get you airborne behind a tug jockey who can fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope.
Granted wingsuits are an ultra-extreme sport, but hang gliding isn't tennis either.
If you wanna make it a lot safer than tennis you very easily can - barring, of course, interference from your friendly neighborhood flight park and Aussie Methodist vigilantes.
NMERider - 2012/10/03 18:50:39 UTC
HG can be extreme but only if the pilot makes it extreme by his/her own choice.
Precisely.
Normally it is a fairly benign sport and no more 'extreme' than sailing normally is. Even sailing can turn into an extreme sport if the crew decides to go out in high winds and rough seas by choice.
It can and does happen by sudden and unexpected changes in the weather too.
Yeah, it can and does. But it's real hard to find incidents of gliders who were otherwise flying responsibly getting trashed due to sudden and unexpected changes in the weather.
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
Those fractures aren't happening as a consequence of sudden and unexpected changes in the weather. Let's see what we can do on that front before we start looking at gust fronts.
Then it becomes an incident and should be reported as an incident so that other sailors may become aware of the unforeseen factors that caused the unpredictable adverse weather change.
That should be done in the freakin' classroom before they get turned loose. We're not gonna discover any glider eating meteorological phenomena that we didn't know everything we needed to about them before.
michael170 - 2012/10/03 23:50:34 UTC
NMERider - 2012/10/03 16:55:04 UTC
Why don't we see stories about pilots who followed safe procedure and stayed within their limits...
Hang Gliding - 2004/11
Executive Director Speaks Out
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window
Jayne DePanfilis
2012/10/04 10:55:48 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jaime Perry
NMERider - 2012/10/04 00:13:30 UTC
Thank You!
That is an excellent philosophy for that pilot and not only prevents accidents but enables the pilot more flying options rather than less.
Ask Ryan when he and his dad are going to start advocating wheel landings.
Obviously what works for one pilot may be useful to other pilots but not necessarily all pilots.
Bullshit. There's no place to plug a personality type into a physics equation.
Our esteemed colleague relate2 sticks with laminar coastal ridge soaring and it has kept him safe and sound for many years now. He is a former inland thermal pilot and with good reason.
Davis Straub - 2009/01/03 20:50:24 UTC
Forbes Airport, New South Wales
Meanwhile there was dust devil carnage in the launch line. A dust devil happened right in front of Michael Williams and he and two other pilots who were hooked in were pulled up and flipped over. One pilot had two people trying to hold him down and they had to let go.
The pilots were okay and apparently the damage to the gliders can be repaired here in Forbes.
Found out that his Aussie Method was even more insane than it is where he uses it now?
Now, the worst thing that has befallen him is landing in an unexpected crosswind and dropping his control bar to the soft sand.
I hope he gets the professional help he needs to be able to continue to participate in and enjoy this sport.
I'd call that a big improvement over my recently fractured ankle from landing in an overgrown and boulder-strewn river wash while going balls-to-the-walls for a local FAI triangle benchmark and pushing myself beyond my limits.
Talk to Dave Susko. He can show you how to include narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place very safely within your limits. Fields filled with seven foot high corn too - if you want.
Getting back to the OP's question about researching accident reports - these can be found in abundance in all the pre-2007 back issues of Hang Gliding Magazine, either in print or the DVD archive.
The best stuff is through Doug Hildreth - 1981 to 1994.
I have no clue why the USHPA DVD archive is not currently being offered...
I have no clue why clue why USHGA ever offered it at all - it's absolutely OOZING with incriminating evidence. A halfway competent lawyer could have a never ending field day.
...but there are hundreds and hundreds of detailed accident reports in those old issue that are just as applicable today as they were back then.
Are you sure? Jim Rooney didn't start gracing hang gliding with his keen intellect until 2002.
If Jatay can get hold of a DVD set then there is a goldmine of reports in there.
Or he could start doing some searches here in Kite Strings. I've got lotsa gems from those archives presented and dissected in the threads.
fly,surf,&ski - 2012/10/04 05:23:47 UTC
Torrey Pines
NMERider - 2012/10/04 00:13:30 UTC
Our esteemed colleague relate2 sticks with laminar coastal ridge soaring and it has kept him safe and sound for many years now.
Having been on both sides of the equation in HG I agree 100 percent...
I always tell people HG is a lot like surfing (people can relate in Southern CA), in that you can either be surfing on a mellow two foot longboard wave in Waikiki or you can be dropping in on a huge hollow barrel at Pipeline, and there is everything in between...
(Just like flying HG/PG people do die/get seriously injured surfing big waves.)
This is pretty much useless with respect to Jaytay and the thread in general. People who go out in big stuff know what the score is.
NME just happens to like going to places like Pipeline...
Jonathan isn't getting getting hurt 'cause he's flying in big wave stuff. He's getting hurt 'cause he's landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place in ordinary landing conditions - and he bloody well knows it.
BTW, IMO that is a great article about conservative flying by my friend Jayne...
- That wasn't an article about conservative flying by your friend Jayne - that was an article about sane landings by your friend Jayne.
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
...to change the lay of the land and I haven't heard a word from her on the subject since. Instructors are still brainwashing everyone to foot land exclusively from Day One, Flight One and forcing them to foot land for their ratings. And a lot of people have been crashed, injured, crippled, and killed because of standup landings in the near eight years since that article came and went mostly unnoticed.
That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh??? 
