instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27262
Accident Reports

NMERider - 2012/10/04 05:44:20 UTC

While we're on the topic of accident and incident prevention, I want to put in my endorsement for the FAA course on: Aeronautical Decision Making
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentid/22624

There are two pdf files in the above-linked page to download and read. I believe the ADM methodology is fully applicable to HG pilots.

Yeah, if you really wanna understand anything about hang gliding then get the hell out of this bozo culture and go to the material from REAL aviation.

I learned about this excellent document while researching safety after my ankle fracture.

You knew what you did and why.

Once I have thoroughly read and digested it I will probably be referring back to it in future posts as well as implementing the ADM methodology during my flights.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27170
An X/C Landing Analysis

Jack Barth - 2012/09/20 15:12:55 UTC

Oops, broken ankle 2012/09/19. Motto: Don't land in rocky riverbeds.

Ryan Voight - 2012/10/04 06:15:16 UTC

This is a perfect time to ask; NME - did you report the crash that resulted in a broken ankle?

- On the forums - yes.
- Who cares? What are we gonna learn from it? That landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place is dangerous? Duh.

NMERider - 2012/10/04 06:17:04 UTC

What crash? I fractured my ankle because I put my legs out and locked my right leg which put excess stress on my ankle.

Doesn't work too well when there's a White Oak trunk concealed inside the undergrowth either.

Calling a minor event like this a "crash" is exactly the type of thing I described in an earlier post on this thread. It is rude and insulting to me and to every other self-respecting pilot in this community.

Yeah, that's a specialty of Ryan's.

In fact, by your insolence you have done more to reduce safety in this sport than anyone else I can think of in recent history.

Let's not forget Davis and Rooney.

But if you wanna look at the entire history of the sport Donnell takes the damage cake hands down. Nobody comes to within a small fraction of his record.

Your holier than thou attitude and general condescending attitude have been a bane to this forum and this sport for as long as I have returned.

- Cut him some slack, Jonathan. Flying hang gliders is the only thing he's any good at and it's all he does so what else would you have him use to inflate his ego?

- Returned from where?

I think it's time you changed your ways.

Good freakin' luck. It's hardwired into his DNA.

I for one will not tolerate any more of your crap.

I think you'll find a few people on this list who don't have much use for him either.

How about that report you promised everyone about your crash at POM because you can't even tie a proper knot in a harness zipper and couldn't even perform a proper belly landing?

What's a belly landing? I was under the impression that the only way to land a hang glider was to whipstall it and stop dead on your feet (or die trying).

Tell us all about it. Did you file a report? Why not just share the same report you filed with USHPA here?

Did I file anything with USHPA about my ankle fracture? No, I did not and nor do I intend to. It will go into a black hole and be of no benefit to anyone. I did write a detailed report on the CSS forum which I linked on the Org. That IMHO was more than sufficient reporting. It was a local matter and local pilots are well aware of it.

Thank you for you concern. Now, please tell us all about your crash at POM because you were all zipped up with no place to go. After all, this happened in the same harness that the zipper got blown out of during your first "real" cross country flight. I guess you might have installed the replacement zipper yourself. Then it failed. Top this off with the fact that you are a harness maker makes me wonder?

Here is the story about the USHPA black hole:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24742
The missing USHPA accident database

As an incumbent RD what do you plan to do to correct this situation? BobK and I would like some accountability and transparency.

Unless you're Bob's Numero Uno brainless sycophant. Then THIS:

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1081
Platform towing /risk mitigation / accident

Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC

No, you don't get an accident report.

is all the accountability and transparency you need after you've killed somebody on the other end of the string.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27262
Accident Reports

Ryan Voight - 2012/10/04 06:48:20 UTC

Dude... I was just asking if you reported it... in a thread about accident reports, in which the original post says "why the black hole?"

I apologize if you took exception to the word "crash". It was a less-than-graceful return to earth that resulted in broken bones. If you have a better description, by all means...

And the event you refer to, I posted to FaceBook with the following description:

I couldn't get my harness to unzip, and there's no way to manually blow out the zipper or the velcro that holds the zipper in. With my legs in the harness, the slider on the backplate won't slide forward, so the only way to get upright is to grab the DT's and pull myself up.

And, of course, the most critical element of any hang glider landing is being upright.

I flew it in to the edge of the grass (figuring grass is soft) and just before impact let go of everything. Technically the nose never touched, so the Sundancer has still never been whacked... but now it's been CRASHED.

I was entirely uninjured, but have no problem calling it what it is.

I'd call it a landing - undoubtedly a harder landing than was necessary, but still...

Again, no offense was meant... but at the same time, what are *YOU* calling it?

And why exactly not report it? You do realize the report doesn't get shared anywhere, right?

Got that right.

It goes to USHPA office, then legal.

Where, if it's determined to be of any value to the membership, it's immediately shredded.

If enough reports were gathered to write articles in the mag or whatever...

What's the minimum number - to the nearest hundred - of near misses, crashes, injuries, fatalities required to justify an article or advisory?

...like they used to do...

Yeah. Like they USED to do. Before they geared up to portray the sport of having fixed all it's problems and achieved a plateau of perfection decades ago.

...it would first be scrubbed of all identifying information...

Yeah.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16439
Some day we will learn

Steve Morris - 2010/03/31 23:58:54 UTC
Sunnyvale, California

In 2009 there were several serious hang gliding accidents involving pilots on the HG forum (or who had close friends on the forum that reported that these accidents had occurred). In each case there was an immediate outcry from forum members not to discuss these accidents, usually referring to the feelings of the pilots' families as a reason to not do so. In each case it was claimed that the facts would eventually come out and a detailed report would be presented and waiting for this to happen would result in a better informed pilot population and reduce the amount of possibly harmful speculation.

In each of these cases I have never seen a final detailed accident report presented in this forum. So far as I can tell, the accident reporting system that has been assumed to exist here doesn't exist at all, the only reports I've seen are those published in the USHPA magazine. They are so stripped down, devoid of contextual information and important facts that in many cases I have not been able to match the magazine accident report with those mentioned in this forum.

The end result has been that effective accident reporting is no longer taking place in the USHPA magazine or in this forum. Am I the only one who feels this way?

Rest assured that it'll be scrubbed of all identifying information.

...just as they were when they were in the mag, and annual summaries were compiled.

So your bit about peanut galleries and kangaroo courts really makes no sense... if you'll post the video here, why not submit a report to USHPA? It takes two secs...

Name some easily fixable problems that were identified by Doug Hildreth's data and analysis that USHGA ever did shit to correct.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27262
Accident Reports

NMERider - 2012/10/04 07:11:17 UTC

No pilot ever sees the report for something so minor as this:
http://www.crestlinesoaring.org/forum/20120919/7524#comment-13464

I know about some truly serious accidents that will either never get reported anywhere or by the time USHPA publishes them in the magazine they will be so badly gutted of useful information that the value just isn't there.

Yeah, I think I remember Steve Morris saying something very similar about two and a half years ago.

I did try to report an accident once a few years ago and it was a PITA to do it (at that time) and so I gave up on the process. Then Davis brought up the issue last year and I lost all interest in the process after that discussion.

Maybe you should follow his lead and make the shift towards promoting as much carnage as possible. That just never gets old.

I was not kidding when I mentioned how the old magazine DVD archives contains a wealth of detailed accident reporting.

So what's the difference between then and now and why does that difference exist?

I'm putting my money with the FAA system of Aeronautical Decision Making which can also be found in the pilot's handbook:
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/media/phak%20-%20chapter%2017.pdf

As in REAL aviation. (I wonder how long it'll take Dennis to figure out how to make another buck by doing a half-assed rewrite for hang gliding.)

What does the FAA have to say on the advisability of taking one's hands off the controls at critical phases of flight and using a piece of fishing line as the focal point of a safe towing system?

If I was to write a more detailed account of how I fractured my ankle, I could probably cite dozens of these moments using the FAA ADM system and describe how each decision placed me at greater risk according to the ADM model.

I could probably trace it back to your Day One training when you were taught the best way to land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

Ultimately I found myself unable to cope with my situation.

Ultimately, pretty much everyone who opts for dangerous landings in dangerous places does. And a lot of people who opt for dangerous landings in safe places pay with career interruptions and worse.

I had exceeded my physiological and physiological limitation and made a beginner's mistake in an advanced and very technical situation. I was in fact otherwise capable to performing a no-step flare landing from a height of six feet in the small clearing but I was physically and mentally spent.

Maybe it's a better idea to assume you can't and select landing areas accordingly. Just 'cause you're CAPABLE of pulling off a skilled maneuver like that ninety-nine times out of a hundred doesn't mean you SHOULD.

And furthermore...

I would submit that even if you weren't totally wiped when you blew that one you could've been hit with a thermal induced tailwind at just the right moment which could've resulted in an ankle just as broken. Those safety margins are way too thin.

Had I used even a little of the ADM system I would not have even come close to this event happening.

I can think of another system you coulda used whereby you would not have even come close to that event happening.

And that is why I would rather read (and write) about how accidents did not happen and how pilots made decisions that resulted in safe outcomes.

I've read a lot of accounts of people flying at Wallaby, Quest, Florida Ridge, Lookout, Manquin, Ridgely, Hang Glide Chicago, Whitewater, Cowboy Up... I don't think there's any question that it helps a lot to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

...be really high when any shit starts hitting the fan.

I don't care nearly as much about accidents did happen as how they didn't.

It almost always helps a lot to be over two hundred feet...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC

The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.

...unless it's been a while since you checked your reflex bridle adjustment. Then you're pretty much fucked unless you're high enough to get your parachute out in time to fully inflate.

I care about Risk Management; Single-Pilot Resource Management; Hazardous Attitudes and Antidotes; Enhanced Situational Awareness, etc., etc. It's all there in the FAA ADM system and I would like to see other HG pilots learn and employ the ADM system.

You'd like to see pilots from a sport in which:

- gliders ship with backup loops

- a safe landing involves the pilot taking his hands off the basetube, putting them in positions highly likely to get an arm or two broken WHEN something goes wrong, and stalling the glider with the nose twenty-five degrees above placard limitation at the precise proper moment

- parachutes and helmets are mandatory safety equipment but wheels are optional

- the focal point of a safe towing system is a piece of fishing line that blows every other launch and routinely crashes gliders back on the runway

- having a release which requires the pilot to let go of the control bar to terminate a low level lockout is not regarded as a disadvantage

- Peter Birren is recognized by USHGA with a safety award

- Jim Rooney is hailed for his keen intellect

to READ and LEARN something? I'd like to see human population levels get down to something sustainable, atmospheric carbon dioxide drop to pre Industrial Revolution levels, and healthy populations of Ivory-Billed Woodpeckers and Carolina Parakeets - but I'm not holding my breath.

I know that I plan to do this and I hope, in the future, to describe how I put it to good use.

How's that grab you?

Given the state of hang gliding and what's actually getting people crashed, injured, crippled, and killed as mostly a waste of time.

We can get thirty times the bang for the buck teaching people to do short runway wheel landings in safe fields, shooting fucking Bobby, Rooney, Davis, Matt, and Trisa and getting Dragonfly towing fixed, and shooting fucking Paul and Ryan and getting hook-in check regulations enforced.

It's pretty pointless to talk about all that head stuff when we're sending people up into a massively broken system under the total control of assholes and scumbags who treat theory, engineering, safety regulations, and common sense with total contempt.

Get the system fixed, lay a foundation comparable to what's always existed in REAL aviation and then we can keep dialing down the threat level with the more subtle elements. Otherwise we're gonna continue to have people focused on the best strategies, sequences of actions, and responses for approaching and landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place rather than the best strategies, sequences of actions, and responses for NOT approaching and landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27262
Accident Reports

Ryan Voight - 2012/10/04 07:26:07 UTC

That sounds great... except I still don't see why not report to USHPA? You basically say you didn't make any effort to on this recent mishap.... that speaks more to the OP than this:

NMERider - 2012/10/03 16:55:04 UTC

One reason we will never see thorough, accurate and objective accident and incident reporting is the common tendency to publicly and privately blame and ridicule the individual who experienced the incident...

Which like I said makes no sense because the reports are kept confidential...

Yeah Jonathan...

- Tim will probably do the research and find that none of the schools and instructors are teaching people to exceed their physiological and physiological limitations and make beginner's mistakes in advanced and very technical situations.

- There's absolutely nothing to be learned from an incident in which a highly experienced and skilled but physically and mentally spent XC junkie breaks his ankle blowing a no-step flare landing from a height of six feet in a small clearing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

So he might actually allow the magazine readers to see some of a submission in the 2013/05 issue. Go ahead and submit a report.

NMERider - 2012/10/04 07:32:08 UTC

Here's the online input form:
http://www.ushpa.aero/member_emailacc.asp

It's late and I am going to grab a Descute's Black Butte Porter from the fridge and I am going to fill it out. Let's see how this process goes. I shall report back.

NMERider - 2012/10/04 08:02:23 UTC

It took twelve minutes and eight ounces of Black Butte Porter to complete the form. I am awaiting the electronic copy. I did a screen print of my input if I need to refer back to it. Here's the money shot...

Flew an aggressive X/C task while suffering fatigue from some unknown virus. Pushed myself too hard and exceeded my limitations. Found myself faced with landing out with the need to flare accurately from a height of six feet. Failed to execute a correct flare due to the fatigue and jammed my ankle during a slow mush landing. No harm to the glider or anything else. Fracture to medial malleus and other internal fractures in ankle.

Use of the ADM system in AC 60-22 would have easily prevented this.

So would a mindset of avoiding narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place like the plague.

Ryan Voight - 2012/10/04 13:39:05 UTC

Thank you Jonathan! Let's hope others will follow your lead.

In training themselves to land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place, reporting what inevitably happens to people who routinely land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place, or both?

NMERider - 2012/10/04 14:23:09 UTC

So what exactly happens with all the report data that they later become a benefit to safety?

A recommendation from Dr. Trisa Tilletti to put a fin on your keel and get some tandem training at Cloud 9.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27262
Accident Reports

Mikkel Krogh - 2012/10/04 18:02:04 UTC
Denmark

Isn't the ideal solution one global online reporting and statistic tool combined with a safety advice database?

No. The ideal solution is to start DOING SOMETHING about the blindingly problems we've known we've had and have been totally ignoring for decades.

- We need a simple reporting form with predefined categories that can be used for automatically creation of statistics.

We need a separation of powers so the motherfuckers responsible for the statistics aren't the same ones controlling, interpreting, manipulating, editing, redacting, burying them.

- We need safety officers to review and evaluate the reports before releasing them to the statistics and public.

We need witnesses posting observations, photos, and videos while the wreckage is still smoldering and before the fuckin' safety officers get chances to review and evaluate the reports before releasing them and the statistics and public.

If you look it what happened in the immediate and long term aftermaths of the Godinez-Avila fatality you'll notice that an HPAC Safety Officer's primary function is to serve as the HPAC Public Relations Officer - with the full support/collusion of the goddam mainstream media. (Rot in hell, Vancouver Sun.)

- We need at least a safety advice referencing each report.

Joe Gregor - 2007/05

Lesson learned: HANG CHECK, HANG CHECK, HANG CHECK!

Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

- We need the databases to be available for everyone.

We need EVERYONE to start looking at what we've got and put the heads of the people responsible for it on pikes.

- We need to be able to discuss each accident / incident.

Surely you're not serious!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16439
Some day we will learn

Steve Morris - 2010/03/31 23:58:54 UTC

In 2009 there were several serious hang gliding accidents involving pilots on the HG forum (or who had close friends on the forum that reported that these accidents had occurred). In each case there was an immediate outcry from forum members not to discuss these accidents, usually referring to the feelings of the pilots' families as a reason to not do so.

We're honor bound not to discuss crashes or, in the usual vacuum of reporting, speculate regarding possible scenarios lest we further traumatize the pilots' families.

The solution can be made and will require some effort to establish but the required mindset change seems to be unrealistic for the time being.

And the chances of that mindset change continue to degrade with each passing year.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27262
Accident Reports

Ryan Voight - 2012/10/04 18:05:19 UTC

NMERider - 2012/10/04 14:23:09 UTC

So what exactly happens with all the report data that they later become a benefit to safety?

We'll actually be discussing that at the upcoming BOD meeting... check out the agenda at:
http://www.USHPA.aero

No shit, Ryan. I can hardly wait to see the plummeting of the crash rates that are gonna result from this discussion.

Ryan Voight - 2012/10/04 18:24:26 UTC

A few more ramblings on accident reporting...

Most people do not know how to correctly report an accident. I know that sounds inflammatory, but it's the truth.

You'd think with all the opportunities they have to practice they'd be really excellent at it.

I'm our local club safety officer, so I get a local report or two when someone takes the time to complete one...

NMERider - 2012/10/04 06:17:04 UTC

In fact, by your insolence you have done more to reduce safety in this sport than anyone else I can think of in recent history. Your holier than thou attitude and general condescending attitude have been a bane to this forum and this sport for as long as I have returned.

Failed to roll and push out hard enough soon enough to actuate instant hands free release. Slammed into runway still connected to towline. Resuscitation efforts unsuccessful.

...and in the winter I'm a ski-school supervisor...

Ever consider migrating to New Zealand in Northern Hemisphere summers and being a ski-school supervisor year round?

...and a big topic every year is training the new hires (and the old dogs!) how to properly fill out an incident/accident report.

Short story - the report should be as specific as possible, but list only facts. Most people want to put a "this happened because" in the report... and that has no place there. It comes down to isolating observations from the inferences we make based on what we observed. If you see a student fall over on their right side, you say they fell on their right side. If you saw them put their right arm out, you say you saw them put their right arm out. You do not say that they fell over because they caught an edge. Catching an edge may very well of been the immediate cause - but catching an edge is actually the result of something else - off balance, out of alignment, boots too loose, there are a million possibilities... which is why in a factual report you want to stay away from inferring the WHY. Just the facts, just what you saw.

You listening to this, Joe?

Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

Maybe you shouldn't be implying that the reason that the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release was because Mike was too much of an incompetent asshole to think to abort the tow in time to avoid a dive into the ground but because the Wallaby-style "release" was "designed by an incompetent asshole to be inaccessible and fail in a half dozen was even if and when you can get to it.

It's up to whoever gets the reports to investigate and determine the WHY - and it comes from multiple reports with purely factual information.

Sorry Joe, forget you're the industry shill whose job it is to portray Mike as too much of an incompetent asshole to think to abort the tow in time to avoid a dive into the ground and protect the industry motherfuckers who set him up. Forget I mentioned anything.

(P.S. Too bad he wasn't using a stronglink. That always makes the job of the industry shill so much easier.)

It's impossible to investigate properly if everyone put their version of WHY in there. The worst is if you get conflicting reports - because now you can't determine with any level of certainty if A happened or if B happened.

So you go back and question the witnesses and look at all the evidence to get the best information you can.

You basically need to put the story together without that detail.

I'm trying to think of an example from hang gliding where this sort of thing is a real problem. I'm not coming up with anything.

Pushed out hard enough to release...

It's so EASY to see through bullshit like that.

I could go on and on... but you get the idea...

No. Please go on and on. It's always so entertaining when you do. I hardly ever fail to get really valuable quotes.

I think we not only need to do a better job of encouraging the reporting of accidents, but also educating as to HOW to properly report them.

Or... We could do a better job of eliminating "accidents" so there'd only be about five percent of what we have now to properly report.

One step at a time I guess.... right now, it would be great to have a slew of reports that aren't properly filled out. THEN we could get picky about the HOW...

Just kidding. Carry on as before.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27262
Accident Reports

Alex - 2012/10/04 20:58:24 UTC

Reporting an accident is an administrative exercise.

Bullshit. Reporting an "accident" is an exercise for anyone who saw, heard, or knows anything about what happened.

Deriving a real safety benefit (to all pilots) from the report requires a detailed analysis of the accident which then becomes a public report (shared directly or made available to all pilots).

Yes. We mere mortals could never hope to analyze the data the way the instructors, flight park operators, elected, officials, and appointed committee members and chairs do when they're all trying to keep their useless asses covered.

To be of benefit and accepted by the pilot population, the analysis has to be done by an expert.

Dennis Pagen, Bill Bryden, Donnell Hewett, Peter Birren, Rob Kells, Bill Moyes, Bobby Bailey, Malcolm Jones, Davis Straub, Steve Wendt, Jim Rooney, Matt Taber, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Joe Gregor, Lauren Tjaden, Joe Greblo, Pryan Voight, Jason Warner, Martin Henry...

Fuck that.

An expert is someone who understands the structure and operating parameters of the glider in question as well as the physics of the conditions that prevailed during the time line of the accident.

An expert is someone who understands that the subject:
- broke his arm fucking up the flare timing at the Happy Acres putting green
- was more focused on the traffic cone than he was on landing
- should have decided to belly in instead of continuing to try to struggle out of his jammed pod
- plummeted off the ramp 'cause he never did a hook-in check in his entire short life
- worked too long trying to work up and clipped a tree as he was trying to squeak into the LZ
- tried to land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place once too often
- was a bit slow trying to make it over the top in a loop
- assumed that the price of a Florida Ridge lift ticket covered a properly maintained runway
- suffered under the delusion that a piece of fishing line was the focal point of a safe towing system
- had a driver who made a good decision in the interest of his safety
- found out the hard way that there's no such thing as "within easy reach" during a lockout

An expert in this game can be a ten year old kid with an IQ in the mid double digits.

I contend that if any pieces of the process are missed (filing a report, expert analysis of the incident, and a public sharing of the analysis) then no safety benefit can possibly occur.

I contend that:
- this post is a load of crap;
- none of this is rocket science;
- some crash data is always a helluva lot more valuable than no crash data; and
- if you're flying these things you better be a goddam expert 'cause...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post15.html#p15

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

...this sport is so fucked up that you can't trust anyone in it but yourself.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27262
Accident Reports

Tom Galvin - 2012/10/04 16:37:06 UTC

There are only a handful of designers left in the sport, and there is no breeding ground for new ones. In the quest for safety the sport has sacrificed much of the innovative spirit it started with.

Pure unadulterated BULLSHIT.

- So what's stopping YOU from designing something?

- There was a HUGE breeding ground for designers in the early to mid Seventies 'cause hardly anyone knew what the fuck he was doing.

- Hang gliding hit a major design plateau in 1979 with the UP Comet. At about that point the hang glider became a flying wing with a control frame and the accompanying wire rigging underneath it. All we've done from then on is to tweak that design. We've made it tighter, stiffer, cleaner. We've improved the hardware, streamlined the exposed tubing, and gotten rid of the upper rigging.

- The primary reason we've only got a handful of designers is 'cause there's nothing left to design. Today's superships don't look that radically different from the supership of a third of a century ago and we've wrung all the performance out of that concept there is to wring. Nowadays when you choose a hang glider it's all a matter of tradeoffs - cost, performance, handling, weight, setup time.

- Bo Hagewood.

- The other reason we've only got a handful of designers is 'cause...

GuessWho - 2012/10/08 20:15:17 UTC

99% of free-flight pilots are too stupid to learn much from published accident reports.

...ninety-nine plus percent of people who fly hang gliders are too fuckin' stupid to understand that:
- it's totally moronic to back up a hang loop
- it's better to find out you've got a sidewire problem in the setup area than 200 feet over the ridge
- just prior to launch doesn't five minutes
- you don't use a bent pin as the core of your release mechanism
- a loop of 130 pound Greenspot isn't the perfect lockout preventer for both 165 and 390 pound gliders
- Jim Rooney doesn't have a keen intellect
- Bobby Bailey isn't a fucking genius when it comes to this shit
...let alone come up with a new and workable idea.

- What would you have us toss in the way of HGMA/DHV certification standards to spark a renaissance in design and innovative spirit? Strength? Pitch stability? Yaw stability? Roll response?

- What positive attributes and capabilities would you expect to gain at the cost of sacrifices in strength, pitch stability, yaw stability, roll response?

- Hang gliders aren't all that goddam safe anyway. They don't have tails and they can and do tumble.

- We've got really hot race harnesses that improve glide but hang gliding's dirty little secrets about them are that:
-- you can't pull your knees up to your chest when you get badly dumped to reduce the likelihood of a tumble; and
-- after you do tumble there's a real good chance that harness frame damage can make it impossible to deploy your parachute.

- Where's the hue and cry for improvement over the crap that's available now? We've got Falcon 3s, Sport 2s, U2s, and T2Cs to keep everyone happy. If someone wants more performance he goes for an Atos 'cause the availability of materials and laws of physics dictate that it can't happen in a conventional hang glider. If someone wants more performance than that he goes for a sailplane 'cause the availability of materials and laws of physics dictate that it can't happen in a rigid wing.

Anybody who thinks that the starting point for aircraft design is some place other than basic safety standards - such as those established by the HGMA and DHV - is a total fucking moron. George Worthington proved that pretty conclusively on 1982/09/10.

I was around in the era when Donnell Hewett first flushed safety, engineering, physics, testing, common sense down the toilet in deference to his innovative spirit. You weren't. Trust me - you didn't wanna be there. And you still don't wanna be going up on his legacy items like elastic towlines, reliable releases within easy reach, and infallible weak links which automatically release the glider from tow whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limit for safe operation.

An aerotow release is a critical element - often THE MOST critical element - of the control system and it's built into the glider, just like it is in sailplane. It's not some piece of crap velcroed onto the glider as an afterthought by some stupid hack like Bobby.

*I* designed a solid built in aerotow release system on a foundation of safety and it restores the performance point Rob Kells estimated the Bobby/Quallaby/Lookout crap takes off and have offered it for free to Wills Wing and anyone else who wants to adopt it.

But...

- It tends to get pissed all over by the Jack and Davis Show...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13737
Moyes tow release and bridle

Jim Gaar - 2008/12/10 15:44:11 UTC

Total overkill.

Sorry Tad but with all due respect that's overkill by 20 miles. WAY too complicated. Too much potential maintenance, failure along the "route" of the mechanism. Good practice, knowledge and a lanyard type release are all you need. It's been proved over and over. Your stuff looks interesting, however it's just NOT practical for the sport overall...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Paul Hurless - 2009/05/01 16:35:30 UTC

Adding more parts like pulleys and internally routed components makes it that much more likely that a device will fail. Simple is best.

... K.I.S.S. douchebags who all work overtime to make sure that the simple and virtuous Industry Standard shit that's killed Rob Richardson, Mike Haas, Robin Strid, James Simpson, Stephen Elliot, Roy Messing, and Lois Preston stays in circulation forever and diligently apprise everyone of the insidious dangers and evils of engineering.

- The SCUM that controls this industry - the Wallaby / Quest / Lookout / Ridgely / Cloud 9 / Wills Wing / Moyes / USHGA cartel - won't let that design into circulation 'cause the absolute LAST thing they want is safe, well engineered, efficient equipment competing with their monopoly shit and proving that a lot of the disasters in our equipment could so easily have been prevented.

So until you get behind existing release technology and/or come up with a solid design idea that doesn't:
- add fifty pounds
- triple cost
- quadruple setup time
- halve strength
- increase performance at a huge cost in handling
- increase handling at a huge cost in performance
- reduce crash survivability by seventy-five percent
then shut the fuck up about how sane certification standards have prevented us from ignoring the laws of physics and developing thirty pound, fifty to one, fifteen feet per minute, ten mile per hour stall speed, 120 mile per hour VNE gliders that can be flown for five hours in thermal conditions with one hand.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG. I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works

Zack C - 2011/08/26 00:08:08 UTC

Maybe because they're tired of releases that don't work under tension, releases they have to relinquish control of the glider to activate, stalling near the ground because of weak links breaking for no reason, instructors telling them to intentionally break weak links in an emergency when they can't get to their release, hook knifes being considered an acceptable release option, secondary releases on a V-bridle being considered a backup for the primary release, bridles wrapping on tow rings, tugs having weaker weak links than gliders, disagreement among even professionals over what a weak link is for, tow operators not having a clue what line tensions break their weak links...

In my opinion, we have a long way to go.

While we're talking about weak link material...it is a mystery to me that so many push or even mandate a weak link that breaks at 0.6 Gs for some people and 1.3 Gs for others.

The only "experimentation" that miserable little shit has seen was a few flights of Steve Kinsley's when he was developing his multi-string one point aerotow release.

Steve didn't bench test stuff on the ground and put it through its paces on tow but the resultant risk to which he was exposing himself was, as long as he had a Rooney Link in the system - which at that period he always did, zero. (The weak link was the weak link in the safety safety system.)
- The failure mode of the multi-string was that you'd be blown off tow.
- The Rooney Link would blow before any other part of the system.

The "experimentation" to which he refers was entirely my development of my equipment, my collaboration with Steve on his multi-string, and Tim Hinkel's development of his cable lanyard two point aerotow release:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8322130138/


Adam and Sunny made a totally incompetent and aborted effort to incorporate the latter. I later did a lot of collaborative work with Tim on his baby but - much too late in the game - concluded that it was a well intentioned waste of time, a big step back from the spinnaker shackle and a HUGE step back from what I had done.

ALL of that hardware, nevertheless was a hundred percent reliable as far as blowing tow was concerned - in stark contrast to the junk on display at the Ridgely counter - and we never had a problem more serious than a premature release (no problem whatsoever when precipitated by a Rooney Link but near lethal when resulting from a misuse or faulty adjustment of anything Ridgely doesn't sell).

When I put stuff into the air I wasn't "experimenting" or "test flying" it. I was using it. And I knew EXACTLY how it would perform 'cause everything I put in the air goes through hell on the load tester first.

Nobody goes out and tries to fabricate his own sails, for example, because OBVIOUSLY:
- that's a job for an operation with skilled professionals with industrial equipment; and
- the sails the hang glider manufacturer industry produces have no room for improvement anyway.

A fair number of individuals DO, however, produce tow equipment 'cause any halfway intelligent twelve year old kid with the aid of a needle and tread and a few cheap tools and materials from a hardware and sailing store can spend a couple of hours and come up with something twenty times better than Industry Standard shit that the industry dregs have been perfecting for the past couple of decades.

And if you look at the forums and incident reports you'll notice that nobody's significantly unhappy with glider designs or, barring tumbles, getting hurt or killed due to design deficiencies, malfunctions, or failures of properly maintained components.

By contrast the tow equipment is such crap that...

- there are endless heated discussions about it;

- crashes, injuries, and fatalities resulting from releases which stink on ice are considered the cost of doing business and just punishment for pilots too incompetent to keep their gliders centered in the Cone of Safety for the first two hundred feet and/or to release the towline before there is a problem; and

- the primary survival strategy is to put a loop of flimsy fishing line in the system and hope that it blows soon enough in a lockout to allow the glider to recover from the ensuing whipstall.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27262
Accident Reports

Tom Galvin - 2012/10/04 16:37:06 UTC

There are only a handful of designers left in the sport, and there is no breeding ground for new ones. In the quest for safety the sport has sacrificed much of the innovative spirit it started with.

Lemme tell ya sumpin', douchebag....

- I'm one of the handful of designers left in the sport.

- You're not and you're dumping plastic water bottles and bags, worn out tires, and old refrigerators all over the breeding ground.

- The handful of REAL designers and innovators left are, fundamentally, concerned with NOTHING BUT safety. They wanna improve:

-- glide and strength to weight ratios to give people more control over when and where they come down

-- handling so they can climb out in thermals and not get turned back into the slope or treeline

-- wheels and skids so they don't break their arms and necks

-- release accessibility so they don't go into unplanned semi-loops at two hundred feet or break four ribs and the larynx when they blow dolly launches

-- release capacity so they can dump a heavy load with a minimum of effort

-- bridle design to minimize or eliminate possibilities of wraps

-- suspension systems so they're not thinking more about whether or not they hooked their backup loops than they are about whether or not they're hooked in at all

-- weak link technology so they know they've got something appropriate for their glider, won't blow and leave them in a whipstall if they get hit by a thermal or lead footed driver at fifty feet, and won't end up with 250 feet of Spectra from the tug draped over their basetube

So either pull your head out of your ass and:
- support what we handful of designers and innovators are doing
- come up with a non lunatic idea of your own
- stop using our breeding ground as a toxic waste dump

or:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11517
Question

Dave Susko - 2010/11/05 02:07:47 UTC

...sell your equipment and take up a safe activity like checkers.

...sell your equipment and take up a safe activity like checkers.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=275
I need books or dvds on learning how to hang glide.

Erin - 2006/10/30 19:20:28 UTC
Rio de Janeiro
Joined: 2006/10/30 - Posts: 1

Hello!! I am in Rio learning how to hang glide but I need some books in English to help me with this. I have been flying tandem over twenty times and finally realized that I need to learn to fly solo. I would also like to speak with other females that fly solo!!

HuttoRhino - 2006/10/30 19:33:10 UTC
Hutto, Texas

Welcome to the sport !!

I have just recently completed my H2 rating and have the following books to assist me:

Hang Gliding training Manual
http://store01.prostores.com/servlet/ushpa/Detail?no=47

Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots
by Peter Cheney

These books together are great. They compliment each other with terminology and pictures. I would definately recommend them both. I was lucky to find both of them used for less than $60 total!!

Jack Axaopoulos - 2006/10/30 20:26:55 UTC

Great book. I recommend the peter cheney book first though, its easier for a new pilot

Soren Ladegaard - 2006/11/02 06:18:40 UTC

Another question. What's the main difference between 'Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots' and 'Hang Gliding Training Manual'?

Jack Axaopoulos - 2006/11/02 14:19:47 UTC

Hang Gliding for Beginner pilots, is an easier read. Less wordy, with really nice, clean, simple graphic illustrations and shorter. 245 pages.
The hang gliding training manual, is a bigger book, more detailed, and a little bit overwhelming for a beginner. 348 pages.
This is why I tell people to start with the first book, but its really worth getting the 2nd book and reading that as well after things start sinking in a bit.