It would take a brain transplant for you to have any real hope of being corrected.
I thought that a backup release was a requirement.
Have you seen that in print somewhere?
If you wanna know what's required and what's not try reading the fucking regulations - particularly the ones about minimum weak link ratings - asshole.
filthy - 2012/10/17 16:18:20 UTC
Los Angeles
1 weak link and 2 releases either hand.
You've got plenty of good mountain sites around LA. Stick to them and stay the hell out of towing discussions.
Zack C - 2012/10/17 23:59:47 UTC
Use two barrels and two weak links. (EDIT: meaning one weak link per barrel)
Fuck off, Tad clone.
If...
When.
...a...
...bent pin...
...barrel release is going to fail, most likely it will be due to excessive tension...
Pathetic and predictable capacity.
...in which case having a 'backup' will do you no good (since both will be experiencing the same load). Any release should...
Must.
...be protected by a weak link to prevent it from being overloaded.
Which is why Bobby and Matt are so insistent on 130 pound Greenspot.
Having two barrels is a good idea because there's no disadvantage and it allows you to release with either hand (as Hangskier pointed out).
Or, as is virtually always the case in a critical situation, gives you no opportunity whatsoever to release.
Having a weak link on both releases is a good idea because...
Craig Hassan - 2012/10/17 11:20:57 UTC
I also like to be able to jettison the bridle should it become snagged or wrapped.
...if the bridle wraps, the weak link on the other shoulder will most likely break (certainly if the wrap happened after a weak link break on the first shoulder), getting you off the line automatically.
If you only have one weak link, it breaks or you release from the weak link end, and the bridle wraps, your other shoulder will now be seeing 100% of the line tension with no weak link limiting it. Even if you have a release on that shoulder, you may not be able to actuate it due to the increased load.
Of course, if you put your releases farther out you can make the bridle so short it's incapable of wrapping.
No you can't.
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
This line should be 2 to 4 feet long and may be fastened by using quick links or tying the lines to the shoulder straps as shown in the figure.
That line should be two to four feet long - like it says in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden.
All of this applies when towing from the keel as well.
Juan C. Saa (jcsaal) - 2012/10/18 00:11:30 UTC
Boca Raton
I use 2 mini-barrels...
The ones Davis makes? The ones that are small and easily stored, the most aerodynamic ones available? COOL!!!
...(one on each side of my chest) and 1 weak link on my left, I have been learning to protow for the past month and since the first flight got sold on it!
If you're stupid enough to have been sold a pair of Davis mini-barrels it should be real easy to sell you on 130 pound Greenspot lockout preventers, Birren Pitch and Lockout Limiters, backup loops, hang checks, the Aussie Method, and the Brooklyn Bridge.
-
The Flying Rabbit
If you believe adventure is dangerous, then try routine... It's lethal!
- An adventure and aviation are a really bad combination.
- Good routines are our best defenses against adventures.
But don't mind me any - I can always use you for data.
Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 00:17:28 UTC
I beg to disagree with having 2 weak links !
I'm absolutely POSITIVE you do !
By doing that you are splitting the load and in all practicality you are nullifying the purpose of the weak link as a safety element!
- The load is split by the bridle. 'Cept for a slack line situation, that's ALWAYS a good thing.
- The weak link is NOT a SAFETY ELEMENT. It's a potentially lethal POST SAFETY ELEMENT. It's a real good idea to never get in a situation in which it's needed to do its job down low 'cause the chances of you living long enough to tell anybody about it ain't that good.
- THE PURPOSE - the ONLY purpose - of the weak link...
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
...is to protect your aircraft against overloading. If you're using a bridle long and thin enough to weld itself to the tow ring - and you are - weak links at BOTH ends of the bridle are ESSENTIAL to keep your aircraft protected against overloading.
- Wanna explain how properly configuring a bridle/release system with weak links nullifies their purpose?
Two barrels is ok for you have the option of both hands, whichever is closer or faster or whatever pleases you to get off the tow line but there should be only one weak link on your setup!
A new and dazzlingly brilliant gem to add to the collection of responses to Dr. Trisa Tilletti's question:
What does a hang glider pilot need to learn in order to get the USHPA AT rating?
at: http://www.kitestrings.org/post2559.html#p2559
Just completed another edit of that post - fixed a couple of boo-boos and amended a lot of the astonishing lunatic statements that are floating around the tank of aerotowing snake oil controlled by this sport as I've remembered, rediscovered, and newly discovered them.
(Initially I just included data from threads in which I had posts listed as having been rated. Found that the Jack Show search doesn't actually pick up all posts which have been rated so amended the absent ones then also looked at all threads in which I had participated.)
Current tally:
34 - friendly
98 - hostile
P.S. Surprised, disappointed, embarrassed that the friendly to hostile ratio is that high.
If it wasn't clear, I'm talking about having one weak link on each shoulder - one on each end of the bridle - with each release engaging a weak link. If that was clear...I have no idea what you're talking about.
This is The Jack Show, Zack. It's considered bad form for anybody to have an idea what anyone is talking about.
Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC
The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations.
- So what's the normal breaking force in pounds?
- What IS the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations? Just kidding.
- Why is it just used at MOST aerotow operations? What are other aerotow operations using and what are the rationales?
- Should the weak link line be customized to aerotow operations or gliders of different load capacities?
- Ya wanna tell us your flying weight and/or glider model and size? Just kidding.
- Is around 180 pounds when installed on what material?
- Is around 180 pounds according to whom?
- According to Dr. Trisa Tilletti it's around 260 pounds - 44.4 percent over what you're calling it. Did you read their seminal treatise on weak link issues in the 2012/06 issue of Hang Gliding? I didn't hear you protesting the error.
- Does it make you a bit nervous to know that all the goons on the USHGA Towing Committee are saying 260, you're saying 180, and Lockout Mountain Flight Park is saying 130? Just kidding.
- Ever hear of weak link strength expressed in terms of Gs? Just kidding.
By adding a second weak link to your bridal...
You've got everything else fucked up beyond all recognition so you might as well fuck "bridle" up as well.
...you are cutting the load on each link by half...
NO. By using a BRIDLE you're using two anchor points and cutting the towline tension to them and the connections in half.
...meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
- Was there a lot of lead in the water where you were growing up? Were you and Sam playmates?
- Why is 180 pounds intended? What is that supposed to accomplish over the range of solo gliders that get aerotowed?
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering...
So as long as some shithead with an instructor's card tells someone something it's GOLDEN - even if it's a hundred percent off of what some other shithead with an instructor's card tells someone.
...i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle...
Much better spelling of "bridle" this time.
...for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.
- That is NOT what the weak link is there for - despite what you've heard from your friendly neighborhood Flight Park Mafia franchises.
- The weak link is there to protect your aircraft from overloading.
-- Your locked out glider is quite capable of slamming back into the runway under normal loading.
-- Even if your weak link blows in a lockout under normal loading you may not live long enough to enjoy anything more than a couple of seconds of airtime.
- There's supposed to be PILOT keeping the glider from getting to an extreme attitude or off track and when he is unable to do that he's supposed to have a RELEASE he can use to break himself free from the tug - LONG before a weak link is needed to kick in.
- You fly with a parachute. If you go up with the expectation that it's gonna do you some good on a particular flight - you shouldn't.
- You fly with a weak link. If you go up with the expectation that it's gonna do you some good on a particular flight - you shouldn't.
I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup...
You WERE. Just like when you were making your first training flight and instinctively landed on your wheels.
...and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.
But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
to jcsall dude.
the load is already split by being attached to each of two shoulders. even if you were to tie one weak link to another and another and another, one of them would still break at a given...
So far, so good.
...pressure.
And the inevitable derailment.
go back and check with your instructors and make sure you correctly understood what he was saying...
- Explain why he was told to pull one of the weak links unless he DID correctly understand the rot those total shitheads were saying.
- Where the fuck do you get off with the assumption that whatever some asshole with a USHGA instructor ticket says is right and that if this guy's saying something this monumentally insane it's because he misinterpreted what he was being told?
Zack C - 2012/10/18 01:48:26 UTC
Each end of the bridle sees about half the towline tension. As stated, I'm talking about putting one weak link on each bridle end. The tension on one end isn't affected by the presence or lack of a weak link on the other end.
Every testing account I've ever seen puts the breaking strength around 130 pounds.
The weak link is not there to protect you from unusual attitudes or being off track. Read the following thread and if you still have doubts post there...I don't want to hijack this one.
Currently second from the bottom of Page 4 with 4203 hits.
Wouldn't be a hijack. Dead on target with respect to the opening question. Not much point in knowing how to configure a weak link until you know what one is.
Ryan Voight - 2012/10/18 04:52:52 UTC
Zack is correct.
OK Ryan. Now quit while you're ahead.
Back on topic...
Yeah, the preceding was totally off topic.
...I use one barrel and two weak links. Protow both sides of the release are pretty easily reachable with either hand, IMO.
Yeah. In YOUR OPINION. Meanwhile, back in reality...
Holly lay on the ground tangled up in her glider. She looked bad, but was moving both arms and both legs, which we took as a hopeful sign. Hank Hengst took command of the situation, taking one of Holly's hands while I held the other and spoke reassuringly to her. Hank immediately cut away the sail partially blocking her while we supported her head and tried our best to keep her immobile. Holly appeared incoherent, her breathing labored, and I don't know if she really knew who we were.
I asked someone if we could get some shade over Holly, and several pilots grabbed her chute and spread it in a canopy over all of us, keeping the hot sun off Holly's face.
Fuck you and your goddam experience, Ryan. We have plenty enough assholes in this sport telling people that cigarettes aren't dangerous 'cause they've been smoking them for twenty years and don't have lung cancer or emphysema. We need people with functional brains to look at the reports, data, science, logic and understand that they - in no uncertain terms whatsoever - ARE.
I also like the idea of one release.
I'm trying to think of a shit idea in hang gliding that you DON'T like. Nothing's coming to me.
Less chance of accidental release (I have accidentally pushed or pulled the barrel by catching it on the base tube).
- You can push the barrel all you want without opening the release.
- Don't ya just love the way Bobby made the barrel short and fat and flared the ends? He's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.
Also, always have a hook knife within quick reach, either hand.
Yeah. And when you're driving with shit brakes and no seatbelt and airbags always have a pillow within quick reach on the passenger's seat.
I guess the hook knife is my second release?
No. It's a placebo you Industry Standard shits sell for twenty bucks to lull your students into false senses of security when they're nervous about the junk towing equipment you're selling them.
Or is that third release, with the weaklink being a second? Whatever...
You have NOTHING that'll get you safely off tow at anything remotely resembling a time of your choosing - asshole.
I also use old weaklinks.
Really?
- What's a weak link? I guess it's safe to assume that it's a loop of 130 pound Greenspot installed in such a manner that the knot is positioned so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation so that you get a breaking strength of 260 pounds direct / 520 towline?
- What's the breaking strength of an OLD weak link?
- Isn't it really dangerous to fly new weak links? Do you do that yourself or do you pay someone to put twenty flights on them to bring them down to your standards?
I have heard a lot of people say they want stronger ones...
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
...a million of them.
...personally, I'd rather it break sooner than later...
- Personally, I'd rather your weak link break sooner than later too. I'd like to see it breaking every other tow. I'd like to see it breaking so frequently that eventually you get into a situation in which you can't afford to have it break, slam in, break your fucking neck (preferably with the GoPro running), and become a teaching tool for me.
- I'm having a REALLY hard time understanding why, if you've got this wonderful protow bent pin barrel "release" which is so easily reachable with either hand, in your OPINION, you're so enamored with a fuzzed out piece of flimsy fishing line that disintegrates whenever anyone makes any significant control input.
...and if it does break, sooner OR later, it's my fault.
No matter what the strength of the weak link, weight and performance of the glider, speed of the tug, severity of the turbulence it's ALWAYS the fault of the glider pilot.
The solution is to get more tandem Cone of Safety training from Dr. Trisa Tilletti.
If I can control the glider and keep it in place, I shouldn't pop weaklinks... even old ones...
Yeah Ryan. We should all be pilots of your caliber - totally immune to the influences of arithmetic. Not to mention totally contemptuous of the FAA's regulations on minimum weak link ratings and USHGA's make-believe standards for release capacity.
I was using several-year-old weaklinks at SCRF...
The Santa Cruz Race Flats?
...no trouble... usually they get so old that one breaks about every three years.
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
No biggie.
Just another turnaround for the tug and another several minutes of soaring time lost forever by the couple dozen people in line behind you.
I also don't tow very often...
And you only go to the trouble of thinking on the very rarest of occasions. So it's probably best if you keep your hands away from the keyboard unless you're engaging in a discussion about flare timing or entry speed for loops.
...so they might be old but they don't get used a ton...
And the end of another post on aerotowing issues lacking any mention of pounds of weight, pounds of tension, and Gs.
I continue to disagree on the two weak link idea but I can see I don't have the complete information...
You don't have a complete deck.
...to argue with those who like that setup.
This isn't about ARGUING and who LIKES or DOESN'T LIKE what. This is about fucking two plus two equals fucking four, common sense, making some semblance of complying with regulations, and protecting your goddam glider and releases from overload.
I for one consider it unsafe.
You, along with the brain dead losers running Quest and Florida Ridge, consider that two plus two equals eight.
I will check again with those who corrected me...
They didn't CORRECT you. You did something AMAZING in hang gliding. You saw a shit configuration, applied some common sense, and made it twenty times safer. Then the USHGA flight park zombies launched a couple attacks, took out the functional parts of your brain, and dragged you down to their level. Now it's only a matter of time before Mitch Shipley starts talking about your keen intellect.
...and to clarify the reasons why...
Good freakin' luck. Do get back to us when everything's been made clear to you.
...in the meantime, I'm going out and fly!
Great idea!
You think you're towing at 720 - which would almost certainly put you over the FAA's legal maximum - when, in fact, you're towing at 260 - not much better than a third of that which will very likely put you at the bottom of or below the FAA's legal minimum and dangerously understrength even if you do squeak by.
By the way...
When you tested your bent pin barrel release at 360 pounds how much pull did it require?
Dennis Wood - 2012/10/18 14:57:12 UTC
i've seen a few a/t and seen some broke links.
I'll bet you have - asshole.
they are much rarer than improperly tied knots which slip out.
- Bullshit.
- But let's assume that's true.
-- How come you douchebags are running an aerotow operation at which people:
--- are allowed to get on carts with crap knots that fall apart shortly after they're loaded up?
--- who can't tie knots well enough to keep themselves on tow are signed off on AT ratings?
-- There's an FAA regulation which requires everything between the tug and the glider to hold to a minimum of eighty percent of the glider's maximum certified operating weight. You douchebags are violating the hell out of it.
i'll tie you a couple for beer money.
How very generous of you.
if you check for frays a few times a year, you will probably never have a prob
Basically I have seen two different barrel releases.
Both with bent pins.
Long (standard you might say)...
No. I wouldn't say. I don't call anything standard unless it meets some kind of standards - no matter how many assholes are using it and calling it standard.
...and short with smaller diameter barrel.
And even more impossible to pry open when the shit hits the fan.
I use the longer release and attached on a HE pod where the connection point is higher on the chest than some other pods with the connection mid chest. I would think that a short release attached to mid chest would catch the base tube.
If you're worried about a release opening on the basetube then don't use a barrel release.
With the longer release and attached higher on the chest, I'm able to see the release and my hand when I reach for the release.
How come accounts like THIS:
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first.
The Herald on Sunday - 2009/01/10
Hurt hang glider pilot joked bravely with friends after a crash landing, unaware that his injuries were fatal.
...never seem to have the slightest effect on any of you idiot eternal optimists?
The reason I've gotta hear this crap over and over and over is 'cause you assholes are trying to convince yourselves that what you're doing is safe when every time you get on a cart every instinct and ounce of common sense you have is screaming at you that it isn't.
(I have a full face helmet...
Great! There's a really good chance that if some shit hits the fan during one of your launches it'll significantly reduce the brain damage you're gonna experience. You might even stay in good enough shape to be able to take up an exciting new hobby - feeding yourself, finger-painting, walking unassisted... Who knows?
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
...and to what standards is it certified?
-- HGMA/DHV certified Litesport 4 to get something that holds up under load, performs, and handles safely and what happens to that safe handling while you're trying to reach, grab, and pry open that cheap piece of crap on your shoulder when the shit's hitting the fan?
Don't forget... The shitheads who "designed" and sell this release and have fought for twenty years to make sure as few people as possible have anything better available are the same shitheads who are telling jcsaal that when he puts weak links on BOTH ends of his bridle he doubles the towline tension required to blow one of them.
Also don't forget that these are the shitheads with whom you're happily sending up your five year old kid.
...and the chin guard does restrict peripheral vision a little is one reason why I like my release out in front of me).
I'm WAY less confident in my abilities and competence than you are. That's why I like my release lanyard or trigger line running under my chin guard and to my teeth. That way I don't hafta see, reach for, grab, and/or pull anything while I'm pretending to fly the glider with the other hand.
A picture is worth 1,000 words. I hope this drawing is worth the words I'm not writing.
Pretty much any drawing you put up is worth not listening to pretty much to the same extent as any sequence of a dozen words you'd write.
(Tow force in #. May or may not be realistic.)
Isn't it interesting how after...
...several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county...
...hardly anyone has a fuckin' clue as to the ballpark of actual tow tensions and weak link breaking points.
Having a weak link at every point of attachment of the tow line to the pilot or glider has NO EFFECT ON THE FORCES SEEN AT THE ATTACHMENT POINT!
But don't worry about this. It's not in the AT rating curriculum or written test. And you can just assume that whatever the tension that reaches one of your Industry Standard releases it'll be able to handle it 'cause it's got a huge track record.
Now if you put 2 weak links on the same attachment point, theoretically, each link will get 1/2 the tow force. But I didn't draw that one.
Good. It would've been even better if you hadn't mentioned it either 'cause the statement is completely pointless.
You're not illustrating a one point bridle configuration with a negligible apex angle. You're illustrating the kind of geometry you get with a two point configuration in which the apex angle is typically around sixty degrees. And the greater the apex angle the greater the load on the bridle, weak links, and releases.
For sixty degrees you gotta add fifteen percent to half the towline tension. So for 400 pounds towline the bridle ends are gonna be pulling 230.
Or, if you wanna:
- use something realistic...
125 pounds for normal 914 Dragonfly towline, 72 pounds bridle tension.
- go backwards and find out how much your idiot 130 pound standard aerotow weak links can take...
226 pounds towline tension - which is off the bottom end of the FAA's regulation for minimums for a lot of solo gliders, including, for example, the Sport 2 155.
Interesting that someone as totally clueless as you are with respect to normal tow tensions, strength of standard aerotow weak links, effect of two versus one point towing, and FAA regulations - let alone the concept of using weak link strengths proportional to flying weights or glider capacities -can feel so confident pronouncing all 130 pound Greenspot blows as just punishment for incompetent piloting.
Chris Valley - 2012/10/18 17:56:30 UTC
I've received a lot of PM's on this topic with people asking me what set-up I prefer when I'm pro towing in the comps...
Why? What special qualifications do you have on this issue?
There is one person who has put more thought and time into releases than anyone. That person is Tad. He explains the pros and cons to every release out there. I gave you the link to more release information than the average person could ever digest, and I didn't get a thank you. Just you bitching that we aren't being constructive. What more could you want? He has created something that is a solution, but no one is using it... apparently you aren't interested either. So what gives??? What do you want us to tell you? Your concerns echo Tad's concerns, so why not use his system? Every other system out there has known flaws.
Are you everybody's best hope inside of Jack's intellectually castrated little cult?
Here's what I and Dallas Willis...
Who suffers under the opposite delusion with which Quest, Florida Ridge, and Juan are afflicted. Thinks that using weak links on both ends doubles the chances of an increase in the safety of the towing operation.
prefer:
2 barrel releases and 2 weaklinks...
Bent pin and standard aerotow. Two good ways to crash and burn times two.
