instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4016
April 23 Hang Glider crash at Lookout

Allen Sparks - 2011/11/28 03:56:48 UTC
Evergreen, Colorado

I never posted much about this. I had a hard landing in April, 2011 which resulted in an injury and surgery. The recovery took about six months. This video shows the accident and what I did wrong.

Before and After
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zzMbdtOhAk
Sparkozoid - 2011/11/27
dead

Not any more.

Ann Dunlap - 2011/11/30 04:19:57 UTC
Florissant, Colorado

Thanks for posting Spark. I remember this. Hope the graphic pics help to drive home the simple and crucial details that can make all the difference.

Not any more.

Allen Sparks - 2011/11/30 14:29:29 UTC

You are welcome Ann. I hope it might help folks remember just how much 'stupid hurts'.

Not any more.

John Jaugilas (jj) - 2011/11/30 15:09:44 UTC

Thanks again. You did post the original and that helped a lot of people think about wheels, flare, approach speed, etc.

It won't help any more people - or help folks remember just how much 'stupid hurts' while it was available.

Glad the recovery has gone well and you're getting some airtime this year to make up for missing mid season.

Some things are way more important than airtime.

[Tad Eareckson]

2008/12/12 - Capitol Hang Glider Association
2009/05/17 - Peter Birren Show
2009/11/10 - Jack Show
2010/02/24 - Paragliding Forum
2010/04/03 - Davis Show
2010/11/19 - Houston Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association
2011/12/14 - Bob Kuczewski Show
2012/11/01 - Rocky Mountain Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association

In your face, Warren.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=607
Understanding Tow Releases

Zack C - 2011/09/24 00:41:55 UTC

By the way, while the discussion that prompted my quote above was taking place, I was in SoCal, where I had several great discussions with Joe Greblo. The first time I chatted with him I was checking email or something on my phone after a day of flying and he just sat next to and started talking to me, completely unsolicited. He said he likes picking the brains of visiting pilots because they bring an outside perspective and he's constantly looking for someone to challenge his ideas...never mind that I'm not a 'professional' or an instructor. He's totally open to the possibility of being wrong. He also has a progressive mindset and questions the establishment. His attitude, to me, seemed to be the exact opposite of Rooney's...it was quite a contrast.

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3652
Grebloville 2013

Barton Davidson - 2012/11/02 20:38:18 UTC

You are being asked to vote not only at the national/local level but at your flying club known as The SHGA for new officers for the year 2013. Think about what it really being asked of you. Not that your "VOTE" really matters as the deck is/will be stacked to lean towards the desires of The Great Greblo, it has been for years, true politics to the rotten core.

Let's be honest here amongst ourselves, the SHGA is not the organization that you should be proud to be part of. Look at the 2012 BOD's, as I count it there are three BOD members that work for The Windsports Corporation, directly or indirectly they receive monetary rewards from The Windsports Corporation. This is called a conflict of interest, though it's not the first time, in 2010 there was a family member of Greblo who was on the BOD's and others before that. Along with having family members or employees on the BOD's there is the use of the Windsports house for club business, another source of conflict of interest. There is a pattern in the details.

The spirit of what once was a great group of people is no longer, the SHGA has been twisted, malnourished and subverted. Driven by an energy that would only accept its "vision" of what the SHGA should be, with disregard for the collective desires of the membership.

A few years ago the LZ was a kinder, friendlier place to be. Be it hanging out under the gazebo that swayed with the wind when the Santa Anas blew hard or playing frisbee in the LZ, having impromptu BBQ's after a day of flying the range or simply enjoying El Barrio as a place to get away from the politics/BULLSHIT of the SHGA, how many of you remember those days.

This was before The Windsports Corporation closed its doors on Ventura Boulevard which then moved in across the street. Ever since, the death grip of The Windsports Corporation has continued its stranglehold of the SHGA spirit. Could this be behind the reduction in the association's membership in any way?

The journey to upgrading the gazebo has been a dramatic one, which was finally given a go-ahead with the promise that the total cost would be of a value close to $45,000, such that the membership would be given notice of any overages. Ask yourself how did the project go from using ~ $45,000 of the association's funds to being underfunded by ~ $80,000 for a total of ~ $125,000, that's an $80,000 difference, give or take a grand or two. Why/How did the coffers get drained without honest/diligent discussion to the membership of the SHGA? Was it the total disregard for the membership or that it is always easier to ask for forgiveness than get permission?

Either way, not a respectable process in my opinion, what is even more astounding is that this is OK, WTF?!

We could have built a new gazebo and have purchased land out at Avenue L for those cold but filled with so much fun days doing the Park n Freeze, why I got those battery powered heater socks of mine. I do know that Ken and Greblo bought land near Avenue L to gain access to the road up the hill, when I asked Joe about the status of the project his response was that the road access didn't get written into the deed, WTF?!

If you were a conspiracy theorist you might begin to believe that you can only fly where Joe will let you. When was the last time you flew Wilson? Oh, Greblo won't allow it unless you are in his little secret club, convince me he is not a control freak, just try.

Ask Joe about the infrared camera that I leant to him for the access road gate marauder. When it was returned he told me that he thought he had scared/startled the individual away for good.

In the end Greblo has made a name for himself that will go down in the history books, I do know that the truth will prevail which will show that the end does not justify the means.

I have received emails from a few of the members wondering where I am, let us just say that I respect myself more than to subject myself to the manic personas that rule the roost at N 34.19.033 W 118.24.406, the LZ has become a place filled with a narcissism that has become The SHGA.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post15.html#p15

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

You can't trust ANYONE who's in ANY kind of position of control in this sport, Zack. I had that motherfucker's number a good while back - mostly by watching what he WASN'T doing. And whenever somebody seems to be the exact opposite of Rooney - WATCH OUT. There's a real high probability that he's just a lot better at being Rooney than Rooney could ever hope to be.

[Tad Eareckson]

The entire Grebloville thread has been deleted from the Sylmar forum. That's a REAL good indication that what Barton was saying was totally legitimate.

This sport is sinking in a sea of corruption and there's virtually nothing to impede the degradation.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27505
Is hang gliding too difficult to learn

Ryan Voight - 2012/11/04 17:51:00 UTC

Is hang gliding too difficult to learn

I dunno. Let's see what one of the two owners of the largest hang glider manufacturer in the world have to say on the issue.

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

Jonathan?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.

This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.

None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!

NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.

I guess it depends a lot on whether you end every flight with a stunt landing or come in like conventional aircraft do.

Me thinks not. But not all schools make it as easy as it could be.

Maybe we should hear from a former Lockout Mountain Flight Park flight school director.

Christian Thoreson - 2004/10

Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjKV5L3hKqY

Ryan Voight - 2012/11/04 20:51:17 UTC

They were towing a touch crosswind. Only a mph or two, but enough that the ground track didn't perfectly follow the tow line.

And you always want the ground track to follow the towline. Just ask John Woiwode.

The kid in the video is working as an instructor-apprentice, but he's a very new pilot.

He may be new - but he's no way in hell a pilot.

I think this is his first summer flying. He's doing awesome!

Sure he is, Ryan - by your standards anyway.

I will say that he grew up literally across the street from the Ellenville LZ...

That would account for quite a bit.

...and would come out and watch landings almost any/every day people were flying. While he didn't grow up actually flying, he's got years of experience in seeing what works... and what doesn't.

He'd have done a lot better reading about what doesn't work. That would tend to make him a lot less likely to go up on that Industry Standard crap he's using for tow equipment.

Remember the name (Ninja Matt), he just might be on the world team some day.

Or...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4046
Accident Report

Doug Koch - 2007/10/20 15:42:57 UTC
Las Vegas

The impact broke both legs at the ankles and drove his shin bones out the bottom of his feet six inches.

...he just might end getting both legs broken at the ankles and his shin bones driven six inches out of the bottoms of his feet.

Or do you wanna tell us that what does or doesn't happen in the thirteen seconds before his foot moves doesn't matter, is pretty much entirely off topic, that he might have done a hook-in check already, that "a method" of demonstrating that you are hooked in just prior to launch is vague, that he might have demonstrated a method and we couldn't see it, that "just prior to launch" is open to interpretation and, depending upon the individual, might mean a few seconds before running or as he steps up to the launch?

[Tad Eareckson]

USHPA Ratings Issued For 2008/02
Hang Gliding Division

Greg Berger - 2008/02/10 - H4 - 61423 - Kunio Yoshimura, Phoenix
Greg Berger - 2008/02/18 - H2 - 86682 - Shane Smith, Tucson

Maybe it would be a good idea for a mandatory review of an instructor's qualifications to kick in after the deaths of two or three students within a period of two or three years.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27518
Pro Tow

Stephan Mentler - 2012/11/06 14:18:14 UTC
Pensacola

I have finally made the transition from the 3-point tow to pro tow.

Without ever having had to learn that there's no such thing as three point or pro tow. Is this a great country or what!

I fly a Moyes Litesport 4. I found the bar pressure a little higher but the roll control much easier.

Are you SURE about this? According to Ryan...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11519
Aerotowing methods

Ryan Voight - 2009/04/13 22:22:13 UTC

If you get off to the side of the tug, the v-bridle dampens how far over your shoulders get pulled (see above), but also pulls over on the glider, so you only have to do half as much correction, the other half is done for you.

...you've got a lot better roll authority flying two point because the bridle also pulls over on the glider, so you only have to do half as much correction. The other half is done for you.

How 'bout trying this little experiment...
- Lose the weak link.
- Tie a heavy rag on the bottom end of the bridle to prevent it from clearing the tow ring.
- Go up nice and high.
- Turn away from the tug.
- Release from the bottom end.

With ALL of the tow force going to the glider you shouldn't hafta do ANY correction. All of it will be done for you. (Make sure your parachute is in good shape just in case Ryan's as totally full of shit on this as he is on most other things.)

I know for some this creates the potential for PIO...

Yeah, talk to Holly about that.

...but for me it has made it much easier to track the tug in midday thermal conditions.

- You have all of the tow tension routed through you so you "weigh" more and have more control authority per inch of control movement - but you're using proportionally more muscle to effect it.

- How much trouble were you having tracking the tug before?

- So now you have better roll control at the expense of increased vulnerability to oscillation, worse pitch control, increased bar pressure, loss of upper speed range, higher probability of being killed if you get hit by a thermal or dust devil low. Super.

If you fly an advanced double surface glider consider making the change.

Great, Stephan. You're a pro now so you can start advising other people to toss away the tops of THEIR speed ranges.

The link to a short video of my first pro tow flight with some instruction that I received from Mitch Shipley at Quest Air is below.

Glad your experience was better than PJ's - so far.

He actually briefed a bit more but I did not get that on video...

See if you can get him to do a reshoot. I so do enjoy getting stuff he says on the record.

...however, what is there, summarizes the approach well.

Yeah, hard to beat top notch instruction like that. See if you can sit in on one of his weak link failure recovery seminars sometime.

Pro Tow at Quest Air
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiTua74e3WM
Stephan Mentler - 2012/11/06
dead

Glad to see that Mitch has got you squared away on...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release

Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC
Boca Raton

The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.
I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.

...weak link configuration. You sure don't wanna have 180 pounders on BOTH of your (inaccessible bent pin) Bailey releases.

Congratulations, Stephan. You're now pro aerotower.

Now you'll never need:
- a glider attachment point and the upper speed range having one allows you to retain
- more than 260 pounds of tow tension in any imaginable situation
- the ability to reliably stay on tow to get pulled / climb out of a dangerous situation
- a weak link which:
-- meets the FAA minimum rating
-- can be counted on to hold through a normal tow in benign conditions
- reliable weak link protection
- a bridle which can reliably clear the tow ring
- a release that:
-- can be actuated under emergency conditions
-- meets minimum USHGA capacity standards

Now you should start working on your:
- standup landings till you get good enough to be able to chuck your wheels
- loops till you get good enough to be able to chuck your parachute

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=23647
Best Practices

Stephan Mentler - 2011/10/15 00:34:01 UTC
Virginia

Over the course of the last year, I have read about hang gliding incidents on this forum in which pilots appeared to operate their aircraft as they had been trained to, but made bad decisions resulting in a crash or near crash. These include:

- The pilot on tow being unable to release from a towline and crashing - he had a primary release and apparently a weak link but no secondary release.

- A pilot transitioning back and forth from downtubes to basetubes on final in rough air and subsequently dropping a tip and being turned downwind at about fifteen feet of altitude (I am not talking about the gentleman that posted on another thread on this site - but one that recently damaged his glider at the site I fly - thankfully no injuries as he let the glider take the impact).

- Lastly, I witnessed an aerotow pilot have a weak link break at about thirty feet and his first inclination was to foot land, he kicked his feet out, went to the downtubes and did not notice his glider was not moving forward but falling down (complete stall). He was incredibly fortunate as the glider was bagged out and handled like a parachute. Had the conditions been more turbulent or if it was a newer glider would have likely dropped the nose or tip and piled in to the ground.

There appears to be a tremendous amount of knowledge among the experienced pilot community, many of whom post their advice on this site, but we lack a consolidated publication or forum that lists best practices for our sport. So the challenge to you experienced pilots that are reading this - how does our community develop a list of best practices? How does our community agree upon what the best practices are within hang gliding? How do we distribute this?

I am talking about stuff that is not necessarily in any of our manuals (I think the HG manuals are due for an update as there have been significant advances in glider and harnesses) or regularly taught.

I am not advocating additional rules or SOPs, just simply a consolidated reference for experienced and inexperienced pilots alike that captures everything from the safest towing hookup to what to do when faced with a gust front in flight.

Over the course of the last year, I have read about hang gliding incidents on this forum in which pilots appeared to operate their aircraft as they had been trained to, but made bad decisions resulting in a crash or near crash.

The OVERWHELMING percentage of hang gliding crashes occur precisely because people ARE operating their aircraft as they've been trained to.

They're trained to:

- do hang checks, assume that they're hooked in, skip hook-in checks...

Tom Galvin - 2012/10/31

I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.

...and run off ramps.

- go up with releases which...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
by Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

...they'll have ZERO chance of blowing in critical situations.

- install fuzzy little loops of fishing line in their tow systems...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

A weak link is the focal point of a safe towing system.

...to compensate for the releases that they'll have zero chance of blowing in critical situations.

- go up behind the worst...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett

...pin men on the planet...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...and PRAISE them...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

...for really sucking at their jobs and crashing them.

- omit critical manufacturer preflight checks...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13864
My new wing

Frank Peel - 2009/10/03 16:35:50 UTC

Do not STOMP on your wires. It's a good way to kink something that isn't already broken.

...so that defects are discovered in the air rather than on the ground.

- use incredibly dangerous whipstall landings...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...every time they come down to pretend that these will pay off for landing in incredibly dangerous terrain after they become REAL pilots.

Kite Strings to date...

The pilot on tow being unable to release...

401 posts (7056 hits) on "Releases" promoting tow systems that work.

A pilot transitioning back and forth from downtubes to basetubes...

403 posts (4099 hits) on "landings" promoting staying on the fucking basetube and rolling in on the wheels.

Lastly, I witnessed an aerotow pilot have a weak link break at about thirty feet...

416 posts (6464 hits) on "weak links" that don't break at about thirty feet.

I am talking about stuff that is not necessarily in any of our manuals...

037 posts (1958 hits) on "Towing Aloft" - Dennis's piece of shit manual whitewashing the atrocities committed by operations like Blue Sky and Quest in their towing operations.

There appears to be a tremendous amount of knowledge among the experienced pilot community, many of whom post their advice on this site...

567 posts (7330 hits) on "instructors and other qualified pilot fiends" on the dangerous assholes who appear to have a tremendous amount of knowledge amongst the experienced pilot community, many of whom post their advice on that site.

...just simply a consolidated reference for experienced and inexperienced pilots alike that captures everything from the safest towing hookup to what to do when faced with a gust front in flight.

You got invited here...

Steve Davy - 2011/10/15 01:40:39 UTC

I sent him a link to Kite Strings.

...to take advantage of and participate it these discussions which were/are everything you asked for and more. But you stayed with your Jack Show, Blue Sky, Quest cults guzzling the Kool-Aid and Towing Along With Mitch. So enjoy your pro towing, bent pin releases, and standard aerotow weak links and perfecting your flare timing. I look forward to including you in my statistics.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Paul Edwards - 2012/10/19 12:53:11 UTC

The crew and, for that matter, every pilot standing around that has a pair of eyes should be on the lookout for red flags.

Seeing any red flags here, Paul?

[Tad Eareckson]

Craig Hassan - Ohio - 83917 - H3 - 2006/01/22 - Robert Hagewood - AT FL ST RLF TUR

Figures.