Releases

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7671
Gallery Of Pain

Jim Gaar - 2012/10/08 16:36:08 UTC

No perfect system?

Why bother developing, considering, looking for perfect systems when we've got so much stuff that works quite adequately just about all the time when things are going reasonably well?

My guess is that Joe posted a video of the guy launching off a PL to show he had "some" experience.

And everybody knows that the more experience one has the better one can control a glider during a low level lockout with one hand while he reaches and pulls his release with the other.

As far as the hook knife or any other emergency cutting device, they ALL have drawbacks...

Bullshit.

- No emergency cutting device has the possibility of a drawback until/unless it's used.

- And it's a really bad idea and pretty inexcusable to let things get to the point at which an emergency cutting device needs to be used. Same deal with a weak link, helmet, or parachute.

- IF you're gonna use an emergency cutting device, tell me what the drawback is to this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifQk5L3Ux7U

IF you want to trust someone with the means to cut you loose with the intention of saving your life/limb/wing I'm not going to say you can't.

Lemme tell ya sumpin', asshole...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett

WHENEVER you tie yourself to a string to go up for a soaring flight there's a possibility that the one or more persons at the other end of it will be in a position to save or kill you - with or without the means to cut you loose with the best of intentions. That's why it's NEVER a good idea or an exercise in responsible piloting to go up behind assholes like...

http://ozreport.com/9.031
Worlds - Rohan speaks

Rohan Holtkamp - 2005/02/06

The tug pilots wanted 80 kilogram weaklinks on the pilot end and that is EXACTLY what they got.

...Bill Moyes, Bobby Bailey, or...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...Jim Rooney or any of the assholes who "trained" and certified him.

So if I can't trust him with with an emergency cutting device or front end release or weak link I can't trust him with a throttle either.

BUT what if the guy cuts you off too soon (as in you where about to release) and now you are close to the ground and dragging a line that can snag you out of the sky faster then a lockout?

- So what you're saying is you really don't have an ability to handle a slack line situation. Maybe it's not such a great idea for you to be going up with the crap you're using.

- What if the guy cuts you off when the only thing that was keeping that was keeping your ass alive...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

...was thrust being delivered by that tow line?

Oh, right...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

That's just more of that crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow. Forget I mentioned anything.

OK so the "cutter" waits a little longer into the coming lockout to cut you off.

So what was stopping you from cutting yourself off?

Now you are gong down wind very fast AND dragging that line!

This is so very confusing. I always thought that the guy in the glider was supposed to be equipped with some sort of device which gave him the ability to dump whatever he was tied to at his discretion.

Not my personal cup of tea folks!

Fuck you and your personal cup of tea, Jim.

Once the pilot gets to a "somewhat" safe altitude, let's say 500 feet agl...

- Funny. I always thought it was MSL.
- Two hundred feet is a somewhat safe altitude.

...then there should be NO reason to cut that line unless requested by the PIC.

- If the fucking Pilot In Command needs to phone down requests to cut the line because he's not equipped to do the job himself he's not the fucking Pilot In Command. He's just some bozo along for the ride.

- If there's an emergency which requires that the "Pilot In Command" needs to request that the line be cut he's gonna be dead before he finishes the sentence.

The PIC must release!!

On NOT!!

The wing launching has a proper weaklink in use right?

I'm not sure. The guys at Wills Wing seem to think that we should use an appropriate weak link. And their dealers insist that we use standard aerotow weak links. And Dr. Trisa Tilletti feels we should be considering de jure, de facto, and nominal weak links to find something we can expect to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence. It's all so confusing to me.

Even a thrown chute might be a life saver here.

In a low level lockout? Good freakin' luck.

Our number one PL rule here in the Heartland is: The Pilot In Command MUST release themselves prior to any situation that could cause them to be put into an unsafe attitude.

- I'm never terribly interested in the Number One Rules of assholes who can't make pronouns agree with subjects.
- People who talk about pilots releasing themselves prior to any situation that could cause them to be put into an unsafe attitude...

Quest Air Hang Gliding

ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.

...are total fucking morons. (Reminds me of public safety officials who advise people to evacuate buildings prior to earthquake tremors.)

One can not rely on a cutter or cutting devise to reverse a bad launch or a lockout or running into a thermal or dust devil.

Yeah, let's always think of a cutting device as a solution to the problems of someone who's just run into a thermal or dust devil.

That's why we all use checklists and prior to launch we check weather and LOOK upwind to see if the flags or tell-tails are showing us that there isn't that kind of issue. That's why we closely watch the conditions so that we can predict the cycles from surprising us as we launch right?

And if you DO get surprised... Hell, the pilot HAS a perfectly good three-string release doesn't he?

If you start watching at 3:50 you can see that it only takes Bob about three seconds worth of right-hand-off-the-basetube time to get to the actuator and blow tow. In an emergency it's hard to imagine that process taking any more than five or six.

There isn't a perfect right or wrong way for sure but there is risk management and it includes all these variables...

- There's ALWAYS a best way to do things in this game. That's why when you start pouring money into competition gliders they all start looking like clones - no matter who the manufacturer is.

- You wanna manage risk you figure out that:
-- risk is minimized by maximizing glider control;
-- with a hand off the basetube there is no glider control worth mentioning;
-- the best person to determine when the tow needs to be aborted is the guy whose ass is on the line;
-- the guy whose ass is on the line needs to be able to get off the line without compromising or losing what control of the glider he has left.

- The "weak link" in that system is blindingly obvious and until you feel like spending a couple hundred extra bucks per glider to fix it you can shut the fuck up about right and wrong ways to do the job, risk management, and variables.

That tow system has two strikes against it before the glider gets lifted onto the rig - response time and glider control. You can get away with it for an entire flying career as long as there's no third strike thrown into the equation. Fuck up the connection, let a thermal or dust devil get by the ribbons, or launch someone who's not all he should be on flying skills...

YMMV!

Bullshit. Nothing in this game varies but the idiot opinions of the morons who play it. Until you can show me someone who flies better using one hand than two you can take your "YMMV!" and shove it where it belongs.

Last edited by Blindrodie on 2012/10/08 19:13:28 UTC; edited 3 times in total

Edited three times - and it still wouldn't pass fourth grade English muster.

[Steve Davy]

HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS
By Peter Cheney
Published by Matt Taber
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association

Towing equipment

- Tow line: The type of line will vary according to the type of tow rig and individual preferences. Whatever kind you use, make sure to inspect and maintain it properly.

- Tow bridle: The tow bridle links the tow line to your harness - and in some cases, the glider. The bridle must be properly routed and set to make sure the glider flies well under tow.

- Release mechanism: The release mechanism disconnects the tow line from the bridle when you want to end the tow. The release is a crucial piece of gear, and must be properly set up and tested every time you fly.

There are several different styles of release, but whatever you use, make sure you can reach it easily with your hands in normal flying position on the control bar.

On some tow systems, there is a secondary release on the end of the tow bridle in case the main release fails.

- Weak link: The weak link is a specially-calibrated piece of line that is placed at the end of the tow line - if the line tension gets too high for any reason, the weak link will break and release you from tow.

- Hook knife: A hook knife is a razor-sharp cutting tool that can slash through lines in an instant. You should never tow without one - in an emergency, you can use it to cut the tow-line or bridle. The hook knife must be mounted on your harness so that you can reach it quickly and easily.

- Wheels: Wheels are more important than ever when towing, since you will be flying close to the ground during launch.

- Launch dollies: Wheeled launch dollies should be considered essential for static-winch and aerotowing. The glider is mounted on the dolly with the pilot in flying position. The glider rests on the dolly as it gains flying speed. When the glider lifts off, the dolly falls away. Although some pilots perform running launches while on tow, a stumble can be catastrophic.

[Tad Eareckson]

Todd Jones in an emergency using his razor-sharp cutting tool to slash through his lines in an instant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA

098-20006

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11519
Aerotowing methods

Rick Maddy - 2009/04/13 21:41:36 UTC

I should have asked this question first. Can I get some folks to discuss the pros and cons of the two aerotowing methods.

Why? How come you didn't get checked out on all this by the highly qualified USHGA official who signed you off on your AT rating?

Pro-tow vs. V-line (what's the other actually called?)

The other's actually called (by people who aren't assholes) two point - as in pilot and glider.
"Pro-tow" is actually called (by people who aren't assholes) one point - as in pilot only.

Keel and shoulders attachment method:

Pilot and glider.

Pros
Cons

Shoulders only attachment method (Pro-tow):

Pilot only (one point).

Pros
Cons

To help guide this I will mention the following:

1) I will be aerotowing a U2 160

The higher the performance of the glider, the less the safety penalty for towing one point - but there's still a penalty.

2) I will probably do less than a dozen aerotows a year

How many tows does it take for someone to get killed when he flies with narrowed safety margins?

3) I now have a grand total of about seventeen aerotows all using the keel and shoulder attachment method

Why choose one over the other?

Didn't you cover THEORY before you get signed off? (Just kidding.)

Thanks.

These aren't "methods". They're configurations.

Bill Reynolds (wilburleft) - 2009/04/13 22:03:57 UTC

For me...

These configurations don't give a rat's ass who the individual under the glider is.

Keel and shoulders attachment method:
Pros... I can use LMFP tow release (don't have to let go of base tube to release)

- Assuming you can get that piece of crap to work.

- And of course there's NO WAY that capability can be engineered in for a one point configuration.

- But as far as I can tell from reading Hewett, Birren, Taber, Pagen, Bryden, and a lot of commentary on the forums there's really no advantage to having a release which allows you to release with both hands on the basetube.

- And besides... If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

Cons... requires mounting a release (more gear and set up time)...

If you use some slap-on piece o' crap, yeah.

...added drag caused by the release

If you use some slap-on piece o' crap, yeah.
Ever hear people complaining about VG systems 'cause of all the extra gear, setup time, and drag?

Shoulders only attachment method (Pro-tow):

Pros... less gear, drag

Cons... i have to tow in a head up position so my barrel releases don't rub on the base tube and accidently release.

And let's not worry about the fact that you're flushing the top third of your speed range down the toilet before you get started. It's not like that's ever been a factor in a fatality.

It feels squirrely like this and seems to add bar pressure.

It FEELS squirrely and SEEMS to add bar pressure.
Wanna get into the simple physics and geometry of WHY it feels squirrely and seems to add bar pressure? (Just kidding.)
So what asshole signed YOU off on an AT rating?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11519
Aerotowing methods

Ryan Voight - 2009/04/13 22:22:13 UTC

"Pro-Tow" pros:

-Simplicity. One (short) bridle attached to shoulders.

Stop talking. You had me at "simplicity". Everybody knows that - unique, in aviation, with respect to hang gliding equipment - simplicity is the most critical and desirable quality of a tow release system. There's almost no place for engineering.

In hang gliding you use a simple piece of crap you KNOW will fail - and HAS killed people - rather than use something engineered to to the job because it MIGHT fail.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.

And the minute someone starts telling me about his "perfect" system, just start walking away.

That's why we have backup loops. When Wills Wing claimed that the primary was failproof assholes like Rooney just walked away and wouldn't come back until Wills Wing caved to their stupidity and started shipping gliders with them.

-Release located right in front of your face, easy to see and find...

1. Yeah, located right in front of your face, easy to see and find.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

The Herald on Sunday - 2009/01/10

Hurt hang glider pilot joked bravely with friends after a crash landing, unaware that his injuries were fatal.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal

Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC

I'm willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of my hand.

Funny how nobody ever seems to be able to get to it when the shit hits the fan.

...(if you have a barrel on each side, the same is true for the backup release).

Why do you need a backup release?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.

No stress because I was high.

When your primary jams won't your backup be equally as jammed? Or, when your bridle wraps, twice as jammed?

-If you have a barrel on each side, it doesn't matter which hand you reach with, and you don't have to decide which hand you'll use when attaching the release...

And...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

...you'll have a choice of the side you'll instantly whip to in a wingover maneuver.

If the hangars and trees are on the left, try to pry the left bent pin release open. If they're on the right try to do the right one. If the hangars are on the left and the trees are on the right... Flip a coin - it really won't matter.

...(which you do have to do with the break-handle releases).

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
Eminently Qualified Tandem Pilot

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it.

The handle usually doesn't break, it usually just spins harmlessly around to the far side of the downtube - assuming, of course...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3648
Oh no! more on weak links

Carlos Weill - 2008/11/30 19:24:09 UTC

The second time it happen I saw the tug line 45 degrees off to the left and was not able to align the glider again I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release.

...you picked the proper side during setup. (In the Northern Hemisphere it's best to have it on the right side, in the Southern you have better odds with the left.)

"Pro-Tow" cons:

-No help with pitch pressure. It's fine on a U2, especially at 1/2-3/4 VG, but I wouldn't want to "pro-tow" a Falcon for too long.

And, no matter what glider you're flying, don't worry about the top third of your speed range you'll be throwing away. If you're a good pilot - a pro - you won't need it.

-If you get off to the side of the tug, the pro-tow pulls your shoulders over... I've seen a lot of people cross-control rather than get their legs over behind their shoulders.

But, if you DO get your legs behind your shoulders, this sideways force tends to pull you over to the correct side to make the glider turn naturally in the proper direction - as Dr. Lionel D. Hewett, professor of physics and developer of the 2-to-1 center-of-mass Skyting bridle for surface towing and well respected for his knowledge of towing, bridles, and weak links, explains in the 1982/09 issue of his Skyting newsletter.

V-Bridle pros:

-Helps with pitch pressures

-If you get off to the side of the tug, the v-bridle dampens how far over your shoulders get pulled (see above), but also pulls over on the glider, so you only have to do half as much correction, the other half is done for you.

Right. The upper attachment works just like your hang strap.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 14:23:55 UTC

Running to the right = weight shift to the right.

It's all about what the glider feels. Running to the right pulls the hang loop to the right, just like when you weight shift at 3,000 ft. Glider doesn't know or care what means you used to pull the hang loop to the right.

It's all about what the glider feels. The glider doesn't know or care what means is used to pull an attachment on the keel to the side.

-Break handle is easy to slap in an emergency, rather than locating, grabbing, and pulling a barrel release.

Of course it is. It's within easy reach - in strict compliance with USHGA aerotowing regulations.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Steve Seibel - 2012/08/18 16:22:36 UTC

The high G-load made it harder to for me to get my hand quickly to the release, and the glider rolled to quite a steep bank, and the loads rose much higher than I intended before I hit the handle.

Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

It's so easy that you really wonder about all these fatality cases in which the gate is found closed on their Wallaby-style tow releases. Really gotta wonder what they were thinking. Probably just trying to save a bad situation instead of releasing before there was a problem.

V-Bridle cons:

-More bridle hanging after you release.

Bummer. You might have to coil it up and shove it down the front of your harness to stop it from trailing in the airstream - the way a VG cord does after you've tightened your wing.

-More to set up before hand.

Yeah. 'Cause it's beyond the scope of human engineering to build the system into the glider.

-Insignificantly more drag than "pro-tow"

Yeah. Insignificantly. What's a glide point anyway?

-Spinnaker upper release can LOOK closed, when it's not

- And, of course, the mechanism MUST BE a spinnaker shackle.

- That's ONLY a problem after some asshole like Bobby butchers it for a cable attachment. Doesn't happen when it's used with a leechline lanyard as per the design. (That was the catalyst for the Rob Richardson fatality.)

-Speed limit, tow pilots must not go to fast!*

You mean they should tow at reasonable speeds and consider the glider behind them? That's crazy talk. Start doing that and pretty soon the glider pilots...

http://ozreport.com/9.022
Worlds organization critique - a response

Davis Straub - 2005/01/25

The problem is that pilots "learn" to make stronger and stronger weaklinks because they do not want to have a weaklink break when it is dangerous (they are low and out of control) and they are penalized by the meet rules which put them to the back of the launch line after they land. Bill Moyes lost eleven spectra ropes the first two days of the Worlds because the pilots' weaklinks were a lot stronger than the ones at the tug end.

...will "learn" to make stronger and stronger weaklinks because they do not want to have a weaklink break when it is dangerous (they are low and out of control). They'll start using weak links up into the FAA legal range and Bill and Bobby will have to fork out for more polypro.

* I was once towing behind Rhett (using a V-Bridle) and instead of waving me off at the end of the tow, he decided to play 'chase the ace' and see if I could follow. When he couldn't shake me, he began accelerating. As he sped up I pulled in more and more. As I got towards full-bar-stuff, I watched the tow line start to slide up the V-Bridle (since my AofA was now significantly lower than normal). As I pulled in more, and the line slid up the bridle farther and farther, the glider began entering violent oscillations. I slammed the release and climbed out to burn off the speed.

1. If you had been towing one point full-bar-stuff wouldn't have been full-bar-stuff. You'd have never been able to get anywhere NEAR that speed.

2. Your angle of attack had shit to do with where the tow ring was. That was a function of your pitch attitude relative to tug position.

3. And of course there's no fuckin' way you'd have started oscillating if you'd been towing one point (like Holly was before she got her titanium face).

4. Oscillations are PILOT INDUCED.

One time I saw someone that was used to truck towing attach his V-bridle to the nose, rather than the biner.

In truck towing there's no bridle going to the nose. There's a tether which gets popped to blow off from the truck.

Someone no one noticed, and he launched. As he released from the cart his glider went into very similar oscillations, until it flipped upside down and impacted the ground.

1. Darwin.
2. So do we get to hear little details like the...
- operation at which this happened?
- name of the:
-- Darwin candidate?
-- rating official who signed the Darwin candidate off on an AT rating?
3. How 'bout the reason...
- he didn't abort the tow?
- the weak link didn't increase the safety of the towing operation?

After my experience behind Rhett, I thought about that accident I had seen. It seems towing a glider from the nose causes it to oscillate and flip upside.

That's good to know Ryan. I'll make sure I don't tow the glider from the nose now. Any thoughts on the advisability of towing from the basetube or kingpost?

I believe that, as the tow line slid up my v-bridle, it simulated the towing from the nose situation I have witnessed before.

Your thrust line was raised and you were going like a bat outta hell.

It's only an issue if you're playing games, aerotowing at full-bar-stuff speeds... but worth mentioning...

Not really. What's worth mentioning is the people who were trying to do everything possible NOT to play games but were killed any because they swallowed all the crap assholes like you fed them about barrel releases located right in front of your faces, easy to see and find, roll stabilizing bridles, and 130 pound Greenspot serving as a lockout limiter and instant hands free release.

[Tad Eareckson]

Damn. Just realized that I've already chewed up most of that thread at:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post309.html#p309

Sorry 'bout the redundancy.

Local Sandy update...

Heavy nonstop rain since last night, winds have only been moderately scary once before now but it looks like they're picking up and it's gonna be a very long and very bad night. The trees that are holding onto their leaves are really gonna wish they hadn't.

There aren't gonna be many habitats - including human ones - that are gonna be better off after the skies finally clear than they were before yesterday morning.

[Tad Eareckson]

What the hell. I started a rechew, I'll finish it.

The first go wasn't very thorough and I have a few more thoughts. And I'll try to avoid reruns of comments I've already made.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11519
Aerotowing methods

Ryan Voight - 2009/04/13 22:25:27 UTC

i have to tow in a head up position so my barrel releases don't rub on the base tube and accidently release.

Sounds like your pro-tow bridle is too short... a longer one would locate the barrel in front of the base tube.

- Bridle length has zero effect on release positioning.
- If you can reach a release with your hand it's in a position at which it can contact the basetube.

Rick Maddy - 2009/04/13 22:49:18 UTC

Thanks Ryan and Wilbur. Very helpful.

Anybody who can benefit from the counsel of Ryan and/or Bill is in pretty rough shape.

One more question on pro-towing. I'm still having trouble picturing the whole setup. I understand you can have a barrel release on each shoulder just like for a V-line setup. But what/where is the primary release for pro-tow? Is it just either one of the two barrels?

Jesus H. Christ, Rick. This ain't rocket science.

Does anyone have a complete picture of a pro-tow setup including the tow line?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306152861/


And if you promise to drop the "pro-tow" crap I'll let you see some pretty extensive and high quality photo documentation of the best aerotow equipment on the planet:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/sets/72057594141352219/

Thanks again.

Tell Ryan to go fuck himself.

Bill Reynolds - 2009/04/13 23:15:55 UTC

i'm gonna try that, thx
Rick, either barrel can be released. Herr's my set up

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o180/wilburleft/protow003.jpg (full view)

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o180/wilburleft/protow002.jpg (full view)

Herr's the USHGA lawyer who makes sure that USHGA assholes who put people up on and sell stupid shoddy illegal shit like that don't get their miserable asses sued out of existence.

Ryan Voight - 2009/04/13 23:27:29 UTC

But don't forget the weaklinks- one on each side!!!

For the love of God - NO!!! That will double the towline tension required to blow tow!
Any interest in knowing the strength of the weak link and the glider Bill's flying? Just kidding.

Dallas Willis - 2009/04/14 00:08:15 UTC

Ryan are you serious?!?!

If he was serious about rolling harder and pushing out in a lockout to actuate a 130 pound Greenspot hands free release what is there about which Ryan couldn't be serious?

One weaklink on the side you don't normally release from is all you need...

Really Dallas?
- What do the FAA regulations under which we aerotow say about where we need a weak link?
- Does Bill's configuration comply with the regulations?
- Any interest in the strength of the weak link and whether or not it complies with FAA regulations?

...(less wear and tear on the weaklink).

- Have you documented that barrel release actuation degrades the weak link?

-- Let's assume it does. Let's assume that each actuation kills one percent of the strength and ten actuations / percent loss is the greatest degradation you tolerate down from 130 pound standard aerotow weak link perfection.

-- Pull the right barrel release on the first tow. What's your blow tension on the second tow and which weak link dies?

-- Pull the right barrel release on ten consecutive first tows and take another flight. What's your blow tension on that flight and which weak link dies?

-- Take twenty tows and alternate left/right through the series. What's the difference between your blow tensions on Flight 21 and Flight 11 in the previous example?

- Why are you using a weak link that blows one out of five tows and is below the FAA minimum legal G range instead of something in the middle of the range at which it doesn't matter if you're off twenty percent one way or the other?

2 weaklinks = 2 chances for a weaklink to inadvertently break which is bad.

- BULLSHIT.
-- REAL pilots don't fly with:
-- weak links that have any possibility of blowing until after the situation has gone totally tits up
-- a weak link configuration in which the glider and all releases aren't protected at all times
- Talking about advertent and inadvertent weak link breaks is like talking about advertent and inadvertent airbag deployments.
-- They both happen at predetermined G levels.
-- Nobody with a functional brain wants to reach the level.
-- When the predetermined level has been reached it's virtually always a good thing when they kick in.
-- A weak link or airbag kicks in at the predetermined level is no guarantor of survival.

If you release one side and it hangs up, the solution is to ditch the other side not rely on another weak link which is only there to prevent the glider from blowing up.

This is fucking moronic.

- Use a bridle that CAN'T hang up.

- So why use a weak link at all? You're saying that in a low level lockout:

-- with releases that WE KNOW can easily become...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

...totally inaccessible and under split controlled tow tensions can...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.

No stress because I was high.

...weld themselves shut

-- after either:
--- you've pulled your "secondary" Bailey because of the lockout direction, or worse yet
--- your only weak link has failed because you couldn't get to your "primary" release before the lockout was well underway
and your cheap stupid overlength bridle has welded itself to the tow ring:
---- your stupid piece of shit "backup" bent pin release is seeing double the tension it was a millisecond ago when
---- the rate of tension increase is geometric
that a weak link in the system would be of ZERO value.

So, if not then, when the fuck IS a weak link of any value?

Rick, most folks flying a U2 will go with just a pro-tow system.

Most folk who fly hang gliders are total morons.

However if you don't plan on towing all that much *and* given your concerns from your other post about not wanting to take your hands off the control bar, then I'd certainly advise you to go with the "lookout" style...

Ralph Sickinger - 2000/08/26 22:18:20 UTC

After towing to altitude, Sunny waved me off; I pulled on the release (hard), but nothing happened! After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall.

...2 or 3 point (depending on your definition of "point")...

Yeah Dallas, let's let everyone have his own personal definition of what a "point" is.

...and attach it to your carabiner. Just make sure your carabiner gate faces toward the back of your glider.

Idiot.

Also you're around some great pilots in the Denver area, Jim Yockum, Joe Nance and JT will take good care of you.

Yeah. The guy that's just told you that you don't need to make the slightest effort to comply with FAA safety regulations or configure your system in a sane logical manner is now sending you to some GREAT PILOTS who'll take good care of you.

Trust them.

Yeah.

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

Trust them. You'll be just fine.

[Tad Eareckson]

Oops.

When I was ripping up Dallas's idiot weak link configuration in the previous post I:
- made a minor inconsequential error regarding the sequence of Bailey pulls; and
- missed an even uglier and possible and likely scenario.

Edited text between "...weld themselves shut" (after the Bart quote) and "So, if not then...".

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11519
Aerotowing methods

Scott C. Wise - 2009/04/14 00:11:39 UTC

I thought the barrel releases were for back-up only, but now that I think of it, having a primary release out ahead of you would not allow a barrel release to do anything - unless you released both - and gave up your primary with the tow line.

Where'd that come from?

And of course, you have to let go of the bar to open a barrel release.

To TRY to get to and pry open a bent pin barrel release in time to survive.

But maybe this is better addressed in the other thread.

This is best addressed any time and place some asshole like Ryan tries to con people into believing that it's not an issue.

DaveB - 2009/04/14 00:51:28 UTC
Fort Collins

(Quietly lurking, letting Rick ask all the questions, and taking lots of notes to ask when I finally make it it out to the field.)

Why don't you just get a copy of the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?

Rick Maddy - 2009/04/14 01:07:42 UTC

Dallas Willis - 2009/04/14 00:08:15 UTC

If you release one side and it hangs up, the solution is to ditch the other side not rely on another weak link which is only there to prevent the glider from blowing up.

So if this happens and you end up pulling both releases you just lose your bridal, correct?

- Probably not. When bridles hang up they tend hang up good enough that they have a hard time getting them off the tow ring before they hook up the next glider.

- But why the hell aren't you using a bridle too short and fat to hang up?

- And you're not the least bit curious as to how much time, loss of control, and effort it'll take to blow two Baileys - one of which has no weak link protection? Just kidding.

Rick, most folks flying a U2 will go with just a pro-tow system...

Which lead me to this thread. Trying to determine which tow method would be better in the long run.

Do you wanna be admired by all your friends as a pro or maximize your chances of survival?

From things I've seen a good mouth release seems to be a viable way to eliminate the "hands off of the basetube to release" problem with pro-tow.

Yeah? So how come there's no mention of any such device in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?

But that is whole other discussion left for another thread.

Yeah Rick, it always is. 99.9 percent of glider jockeys would SO MUCH leave issues for other threads than fucking DO anything about putting safe equipment into the air. Which is why there are hundreds of reruns these idiot discussions from which nothing positive ever comes.

Also you're around some great pilots in the Denver area, Jim Yockum, Joe Nance and JT will take good care of you. Trust them.

Yep, a bunch of good guys. I plan to talk and listen to them a lot as things get rolling here.

If they're such a great bunch of guys then how come they haven't done shit to clean up any of aerotowing's massive problems? I don't recall having heard any of them speaking up about any of the total rot that Dr. Trisa Tilletti has been pumping into the magazine or ripping Davis and/or Rooney new assholes.

Thanks.

Save it.

DaveB - hopefully we will all learn a lot towing with these guys.

Sure ya will, Rick. Starting with how to install a standard aerotow weak link on a bridle with the knot positioned such that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

My primary goal will always be the mountains and foot launching but when the weather in the mountains sucks (or is closed due to snow like now) then aerotowing will be a fine alternative to get some great flights over the plains.

And feel free to ask your own questions as long as they are on topic.

Just make sure that in doing so you adhere to the Jack Show Rules and Policies...

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

You certainly wouldn't want to contaminate a Jack Show discussion with...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

John Glime - 2009/04/13 18:09:32 UTC

Rick,

Not being constructive? There is one person who has put more thought and time into releases than anyone. That person is Tad. He explains the pros and cons to every release out there. I gave you the link to more release information than the average person could ever digest, and I didn't get a thank you. Just you bitching that we aren't being constructive. What more could you want? He has created something that is a solution, but no one is using it... apparently you aren't interested either So what gives??? What do you want us to tell you? Your concerns echo Tad's concerns, so why not use his system? Every other system out there has known flaws.

...any traces of competence.

And by the way, Rick. As far as you standing aside and saying NOTHING when Jack and all of his pet douchebags were ganging up on me after all the help I tried to give you... You can go fuck yourself.

I'm sure I'm missing some important stuff.

No shit.

And good luck with your Industry Standard crap and the great pilots Jim Yockum, Joe Nance, and JT teaching you how to be a great enough pilot to never get into a situation in which it's gonna get you killed.

And, speaking of great pilots...

You might wanna stop by Cloud 9 sometime and get some tandem Cone of Safety training from Dr. Trisa Tilletti.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Mike Bomstad - 2009/04/14 06:09:57 UTC

You could also:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=96425
Over-Under Tow Release

Super idea, Mike - as usual. Add complexity, weight, drag, expense to the system by using a piece of hardware engineered for another application when that complexity, weight, drag, expense is pure unadulterated downside.

Adi Branch - 2009/04/14 13:20:10 UTC

I have to ask this, in the US why is it that you still seem to be using methods such as barrel releases as the main release mech? (which I agree should be used as backups). Why hasn't anyone even mentioned a Koch release?

Mike just mentioned a Koch release. That's a real good indication that it's a real bad idea.

It's not a dig honestly, but I've wondered this a few times... It seems that HG is much bigger than over there, yet the equipment used just seems... I dunno... dated.

DATED? Quest Air has been perfecting this stuff for nearly two decades.

P.S. Wilbur, am I mistaken, or is that tiny thread all that's connecting your harness to your leader line?

No, that tiny thread IS all that's connecting his harness to his leader line. It's the focal point of his safe towing system.

Marco Weber - 2009/04/14 13:30:14 UTC
Tampa

Please post a picture of the "Koch" release. I have no idea what it looks like right now.

...is that tiny thread all that's connecting your harness to your leader line?

You can basically tow with everything what is stronger than your weak link.

Assuming you can get airborne with half the tow tension being transmitted through that tiny thread.

Bill Reynolds - 2009/04/14 13:49:06 UTC

Adi you must be asking about the black thread, which is the weak link. I have it on the left barrel.

And the right barrel doesn't need weak link protection.

I use the right barrel to release, but can release the left if necessary.

BULLSHIT.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report

Steve Wendt - 2005/05/29

The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first.

The Herald on Sunday - 2009/01/10

Hurt hang glider pilot joked bravely with friends after a crash landing, unaware that his injuries were fatal.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal

Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC

I'm willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of my hand.

Bailey releases on either side can only be released when it's NOT necessary. When it IS necessary people tend to get their faces smashed and necks broken.

The weak link is strong enough to handle normal tow pressure...

Really Bill?
- What is NORMAL tow PRESSURE?
- How well does it handle the kind of ABNORMAL tow PRESSURE you tend to get when you're standing on your tail?

...but is supposed to break in a lock-out or other over-pressure, thereby letting me off the tow line without me releasing.

Yeah Bill. It's SUPPOSED to. It's SUPPOSED to break if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon) before you can get into too much trouble. That's...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We want our weak links to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent weak link breaks from turbulence. It is the same expectation of performance that we have for the weak links we use for towing sailplanes.

...our EXPECTATION. So we should studiously ignore the nine out ten times that it doesn't and just focus on the times...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC

I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.

...we get lucky.

Craig Hassan - 2009/04/14 14:02:26 UTC

2 stage release (FL static line towing etc...)...

So you wouldn't want to use it for...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm-YPa_Gvdw

15-03817
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3907/14211939097_509cb98871_o.png


...a dolly launch.

...small bar on right is first release. The big paddle in the middle is the 2nd release, or the panic release to drop all bridals.

They're not bridals. They're not even bridles. They're towline extensions. There is no bridle used in conjunction with a Koch two stage.

(Or so I'm guessing!)

You do way too much guessing, Craig.

About the same as a 3-ring circus, but with a spreader bar and larger webbing.

What?

I don't see much of a benifit with these over the brake release. Still have to let go...

Since when did that become a downside in hang glider towing?

...maybe less failure of the components...

Lessee...
- total inaccessibility
- crappy load capacity
- cable binding
- partial closing
- brake lever rotation
- brake lever bottoming out
- weak link snagging

...but do the brake releases fail often?

- Goddam right they do.

- So why are we flying with some piece of shit that fails even once? Would we fly with control frame corner joint that failed every now and then? Is it OK to fly with a release that fails every now and then 'cause the consequences of a failure are way less likely to be fatal?

That is if you hit the lever and actuate it as opposed to knocking it off to the side.

But let's keep pretending that velcroing is an acceptable means of "securing it".

Link Knife.

Yeah, the pinnacle of hang glider towing engineering. It's too goddam much trouble to design something to release a string so let's just make something that'll cut it. And after we've done that we can pretend the "have to let go" issue isn't an issue.

Marco Weber - 2009/04/14 14:08:26 UTC

All I have done so far is aerotowing. No winch, scooter, platform or truck, boat towing so far and the barrel looks just fine to me in its simplicity.

Doesn't matter whether it works or not - if it looks fine to you and is simple we're good to go.

It's pretty idiot proof.

Which is a real good thing - seeing as how it's only idiots who use them.

Maybe it applies better to other owing operations than aero...

The implication being that aero operations are always in the black?