This is a compilation of my bad hang glider landings since acquiring a single suspension harness. Prior to this, I had no issues. The first landing was in a slight tailwind (I thought it was a headwind); the second was with a 5-10 mph wind 30 degrees to the right off of my nose; the third was a 5-10 mph 70 to 90 degrees to the left off of my nose. In each instance I had integrated new things to correct from the prior instance which seems to have made things worse.
Clive Jones - 2012/05
First year of hang gliding I broke a number of uprights. Last twenty I've never broken one since I land on wheels every time. Even the best get the flare wrong at times and if you do, it's a dropped wing and pile in.
- "Oh, that's so much more brainless than landing on your feet!"
- "That was beautiful!"
- "That was a GREAT landing, Rotor!"
- "Who cares if it's downwind!"
- "Ooh shit, that was awesome!"
I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
Clive Jones - 2012/05
First year of hang gliding I broke a number of uprights. Last twenty I've never broken one since I land on wheels every time. Even the best get the flare wrong at times and if you do, it's a dropped wing and pile in.
But, for want of keeping your standup no-stepper spot landing skills well honed, didn't you get really fucked up landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place and fields filled with seven foot high corn?
And think of all the downtubes your Wills Wing dealer wasn't able to sell you.
First Aid / CPR / Basic Life Support training: Are you interested?
If you are interested enough to commit to attending a training in the LZ, please respond. As most of us are OLD and many of the young ones have broken arms, it might not be a bad idea...
Hey Janyce...
The ONLY reason people are breaking arms is because they're coming into flat, ample, and meticulously groomed LZs...
You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.
Lose the fucking stunt landings, put the goddam gliders down the way people land their planes in REAL aviation...
...and people stop breaking arms and there's no need for idiot first aid training.
The bang for the buck you get through this crap is microscopic beyond all description compared to what you can get through:
- pushing wheel landings
- developing and maintaining landing strips
- requiring hook-in checks
- beefing up weak links from below to the middle of the legal range
- replacing shit Industry Standard towing equipment with stuff that doesn't stink on ice
But I guess it's a lot more fun to play doctor with someone who's just mangled an arm or slammed in so hard that he'll be dead within an hour or two of the chopper ride than it is to lift a finger to prevent this shit from happening in the first place.
Janyce had her first return flight several months ago (after a year out for injuries). Eager to remain among the breathing, she's lately distinguished herself with a magnificent display of conservative decision making. Secretly, she still aspires to glorious loops and lots of XC flying. Long live Janyce!
Yes, wheels can save you if you screw up. That does not mean you can allow yourself to screw up because you have wheels. They're not foolproof, and don't always work. Having them is better than not, but I would recommend you never think of wheels as a safe bet or sure thing...
1. So if you come in on wheels it can ONLY be because you screwed up. It could NEVER be 'cause Ma Nature threw some shit at you. She's just not capable of the kind of power it takes to fuck up anybody's flare timing.
2. But standup landings ARE foolproof and ALWAYS work.
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Unless you're some incompetent hack like Steve Pearson.
3. And always think of your standup landings as a safe bet or sure thing. If they're not up to snuff you can always perfect them...
At Point of the Mountain paragliders outnumber hang gliders, what, 6:1? Maybe more... I sell a lot more downtubes than I see collapses.
Citing site-specific observations does not equal reality.
If hang gliders at Point of the Mountain flew with wheels and only did standup landings when necessary or in circumstances in which they were brain dead easy what would happen to the ratio of trashed downtubes to collapses?
NMERider - 2012/09/25 07:01:39 UTC
Why would CSS want that when his last landing clinic resulted in a broken arm to one of his students?
How 'bout the ratio of hang glider broken arms to collapses?
But then you wouldn't make as much money selling downtubes and running landing clinics, right Ryan?
P.S. What's the ratio of downtubes you sell to the ones you see getting trashed?
One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.
Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.
Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.
Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE
...you might give visitors the impression that hang gliding isn't being conducted as safely as the industry wants everyone to believe it is, interfer with Jack's efforts to whitewash and promote it, and risk getting banned?
I searched to see if it was already brought-up on O.R. or here, but doesn't seem to have been reported.
Go figure.
How many accidents aren't reported?
The vast majority of them - anything the industry and responsible parties can get away with covering up.
The thought that accidents don't get shared angers me.
Welcome to hang gliding.
But I heard from someone yesterday who witnessed the aftermath of a really bad landing in the recent few weeks. The following:
Pilot crashed into a field, and sustained a broken jaw, I think he said in two or three places. He's walking now... also broke his leg.
Wild guess. He was upright with his hands on the downtubes practicing his standup landing for the inevitable day on which he needs to land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place?
But here's what really needs relaying, he was said to be wearing a Charly helmet, full face. Broken jaw.
No. That's NOT what really needs relaying. What really needs relaying:
- Where were his hands?
- Could he have rolled it in?
- What did he have in the way of wheels?
- What was his rating?
- Who signed him off?
Maybe it broke absorbing impact? Maybe he would have been better off with something stronger?
Who gives a rat's ass? He could've had the best helmet on the planet for that particular crash and come out with everything from the neck up just fine and he still leaves the field with a broken leg. That's not good enough.
A helmet can only do you any good WHEN you're crashing, there's no guarantee it's gonna do you much good, and it may do you harm. Our focus needs to be on NOT crashing.
Does someone with more knowledge on this accident want to give us details?
Someone HAS more knowledge on this "accident" and it's deplorable that he hasn't already given us as many details as he has.
I met the young man almost a year ago, when he was contemplating entering the sport.
How do you think he feels about his decision now? When's he planning on REentering the sport?
I really feel bad this has happened to him.
Aren't people supposed to be trained well enough before being thrown into situations like this such that shit like this doesn't happen?
I'll see what the response is to this post before I say more.
I'll tell ya what the response WON'T be. Nobody's gonna...
- question the sanity of teaching people to:
-- fly like THIS:
-- rotate to upright at a "safe" altitude
- suggest that the:
-- instructor/school be held accountable
-- default hang glider landing should be prone, hands on the basetube, on wheels
But, I really only have information from someone who watched him launch, and landed next to the wreckage.
And made zero effort to publicize the information he had or press for reports from other witnesses.
I hate to gossip, too, but this is important, I think.
It's difficult to believe that a broken jaw could be sustained while wearing a good quality, full-face helmet without other head trauma. Any idea of the condition of the helmet after the incident? Pictures of it?
Any interest in the factors which precipitated the crash? Just kidding.
NMERider - 2010/08/27 20:32:59 UTC
Chad,
This isn't gossip. It's public service. As long as it's kept reasonably free of rumor and speculation, then the knowledge should be shared.
As long as nobody's having the decency to give us accurate firsthand data in this supposedly self regulated flavor of aviation then let's go with all the rumor and speculation we can manage. This guy didn't invent a new way to crash - let's look at our history and come up with some probable scenarios.
I own and wear a Charly No Limit full-face helmet with visor and a Charly Insider full-face with no visor.
I have done three very minor face plants and the worst thing I got was a little cut on my upper nose where my visor pushed my eyeglass bridge into my face and a slightly bloody nose. On the last incident I also ate some dry riverbed silt.
Was the dry riverbed narrow and did it have large rocks strewn all over the place?
In every case, my full-face helmet saved me from certainly worse injury. Here's the deal with these lightweight CEN certified HG/PG helmets: They are probably only good to about a 14 mph impact against a solid object. I am also a road bicyclist and have read the research and test reports on bicycle helmets. I also own a certified snowboarding helmet and have read the research and test reports on those as well.
So might it be a good idea to avoid landing in areas in which an impact with a solid object...
We had a Sylmar pilot die from massive head injuries last summer when he got drilled into the ground by sink while he was still prone. His helmet covered head struck a boulder.
...is a substantial risk? It seems that's the strategy in conventional fixed wing aviation.
None of these lightweight helmets is going to save you from a fatal brain injury in an impact with a solid object above 14 mph. Above that, all they will do is let you die, leaving behind a better looking corpse.
So if you do a lot of landings in boulder fields you should probably look into a heavier helmet.
In the case of bicycle and snowboard/ski helmets, it is a net-sum-zero outcome. That is to say that same same number of pedal/snow enthusiasts will die, with or without helmets. It simply won't be the same cyclists/snow-sports athletes who die. There is ample evidence that recreational folks become increasingly aggressive and risky in proportion to the presence of helmets and so the same numbers end up dead or brain damaged.
I think it's a pretty safe bet that this phenomenon has ZERO correlation in hang gliding - although it's probably also a pretty safe bet that you'd see a lot fewer aerobatics incidents if you took away everyone's parachutes.
Helmets provide a false sense of security for some, but not all recreational cyclists, skiers, boarders, and pilots too.
NOBODY wants to crash a glider and I have a real hard time that people are less unwilling to take chances on crashing gliders because they're wearing helmets.
And that issue is massively irrelevant on this one.
I personally try to keep this in mind when I fly and if I know I'm going to pound in, then I'm going to try to let the glider take as much of the impact as I can. That means, goodbye Mr. & Mrs. downtube.
Know anyone of a different persuasion?
This is the same reason I say, BFD that I have toasted fourteen downtubes in the last 470 hours of flying.
If you had opted for wheel landings in all permissible situations how many downtubes would you have toasted?
I have shared much of this information in spite of the public harassment by certain members of this forum community. You folks all know who you are. Keep polishing your halos of perfection so we can see you coming.
How 'bout leaving your videos up so people can continue to benefit from them?
I say, by all means let everyone know that a member of our global community broke his jaw while wearing a CEN certified full-face helmet. It is no secret that they only provide very limited protection. At worst they give a false sense of security that will actually increase the accident and injury rate.
At worst they can precipitate a broken neck as a consequence of a chin guard catching or the additional inertia.
Some think you should find out from the pilot and family if they would be offended.
Fuck the pilot and family. Somebody tries to take a turn too fast on a wet road with bald tires and wraps his car around a telephone pole it gets reported on the eleven o'clock news and in the papers and there's a police investigation and sometimes criminal charges - regardless of who might or or might not get offended. If someone is particularly sensitive to being discussed then he should do everything possible to avoid screwing pooches.
Others think that you are protecting others by getting the facts and discussing it so others can learn and not make the same mistake.
Others are right.
When this sport was first started learning from others' mistakes was a must, we would hash it out to determine what went wrong so we could all learn.
Instead of taking advantage of everything that was well established in conventional aviation by the early part of the Twentieth Century - and mixing in a bit of common sense to cover the hang gliding specific gaps.
However it was not on a world wide internet but if we had it back then we would have certainly used it to communicate and work through the problem.
Yeah. Isn't it great that we have a world wide internet now and have so easily solved all of our major trauma producing problems? Unhooked launches, landings, tow releases, weak links...
This can be quite a sensitive subject but to each his own, to some it will be protect the feelings of family and the pilot to others protect the hg community and hash out the problem, so the only way not to get into heated debate is get permission from the Pilot if you have that, you will never have a problem.
1. When something like this happens we ALREADY HAVE a problem.
2. Not getting PERMISSION from the pilot or his family to exercise constitutionally protected free speech is a problem which can very safely and easily be ignored.
If a pilot's family or the pilot told me personally not to talk about it I would probably not say anything, if they did not say one way or the other I would probably lean towards discussing it and learn.
If a pilot's family or the pilot told you personally not to talk about it and didn't say anything and somebody else got his jaw and a leg broken the next weekend for the same reason how would you feel about your decision and yourself? (I can give you MY opinion on both of those issues if you want.)
Paul Hurless - 2010/08/27 20:53:42 UTC
It's just plain wrong to not discuss incidents which affect our flying community. It's a common practice in aviation to discuss incidents, it's beneficial to everyone.
Tad is a rude know-it-all who freely over-expressed his opinions and called anyone who didn't agree with them stupid or worse.
Just make sure you also do the requisite amount of respect paying / ass kissing to any and every Jack Show moron - particularly the top one - with an opinion while you're at it.
Not disclosing the name of the pilot or pilots involved without their permission should shield sensitive family members.
If the pilot or pilots involved have been staunch and vocal proponents of the hang check, standup landing, Industry Standard release, standard aerotow weak link that was a factor in or the 'cause of the incident then the name or names are relevant and should be publicized.
Most family members probably don't read the .org anyway.
Oh good. Now we can get definitive statements from someone with a huge track record and a keen intellect to put things in proper perspective for us muppets.
Don't bother looking for hard and fast rules to this as you won't find any and you'll just frustrate yourself with the effort.
Hard and fast rules in hang gliding are what get the majority of its participants crashed, crippled, killed. I'm quite happy thinking for myself, thank you very much.
I tend to think of it as discussing the accident as if the pilot's in the room. If they're laid up in the hospital, fighting for their life, I give it a little space.
'Cause there's NO POSSIBILITY WHATSOEVER that someone else will end up laid up in the hospital fighting for his life for the same easily preventable reason within that little space.
If all they've done is broken their arm, well, I hand 'em a beer and let'er rip.
The Press - 2006/03/15
The Civil Aviation Authority is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
Fuck you.
Unfortunately, when you speak of "giving it a little space", there's always some guy that starts ranting on with a sermon about how he's not letting the truth be silenced!!!
I'm so terribly sorry that there are people in this world who fall short of your sterling standards of conduct.
It's always over dramatic and ignores completely the fact that laying off things for a day or two does not equal eternity.
You're right. It's almost always a matter of laying off things for at least months before the same issue equals eternity for the next guy.
Ah well.
Here's more about what you seem to be getting at though....
You'll never know how many cases aren't reported.
The fact that they're not reported makes this impossible.
What we can do however is find ways to make it easier to report them. Anonymity, as much as people hate to admit it, can actually be a useful tool. There are other ways as well. The main bit is removing the reasons people don't report accidents.
So what happened to that video in which you can be seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting the powerlines? I note that it didn't get much more circulation than did the one Jon Orders swallowed.
