landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Jason Rogers - 2010/08/27 21:32:39 UTC
Port Macquarie

Maybe he would have been better off with something stronger?

Or maybe he would have been better off not crashing.

Definitely. But on The Jack Show people are so much happier talking about how to:
- deploy your parachute after you've launched unhooked
- let go of the downtubes when your attempt at a standup landing has failed
- use your hook knife after your release has locked up
- react to a standard aerotow weak link failure
than they are about:
- verifying their connections just prior to launch
- landing on wheels
- equipping themselves with releases that work
- using weak links that don't blow every third tow

Paul Hurless - 2010/08/27 21:35:48 UTC

How is it like being in the same room with the pilot in question even if they are laid up in the hospital? That makes no sense at all.

When has Rooney EVER said anything that makes sense?

Discussing the incident does nothing to hinder their recovery, it's not disrespectful, and if the relatives don't want to see the discussion then they shouldn't be reading it.

But if YOU don't wanna see someone discussing something you support him getting banned.

It would have to be a very selfish pilot who wouldn't want the rest of us to learn something from their fuck up.

And let's not forget the national organization, forums, clubs, manufacturers, dealerships, flight parks, schools, and instructors heavily invested in keeping the rest of us from learning from their fuckups.

Nibs - 2010/08/27 22:08:37 UTC
Atlanta

I've said it before here several times but I will keep repeating it so new people can see each time: The pilot involved in the fatal crash I witnessed last year...

2009/11/27, Chris Thale, Henson, blown launch.

...wore a Charly Insider full face helmet. He died of blunt trauma to the forehead.

Lightweight hang gliding helmets do offer a measure of protection but, like Jonathan said, they generally aren't going to protect you during a serious impact.

Don't expect ANY helmet to protect you during a serious impact. If the NFL people can't manage this issue with helmets there's no way in hell we're gonna be able to do it. If you want to keep as many IQ points as possible figure out the best ways to not have serious impacts.

Definitely wear a helmet, just don't think it will provide you with a level of protection that it won't.

And definitely fly with a parachute if you're gonna be high enough for it to have a chance of opening and a weak link in the middle of the safety range, just don't think either will get you out of a bad situation alive. Make sure you always keep you're situations under enough control to be able to fly your way out of them.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Paul Hurless - 2010/08/27 23:10:28 UTC

One of the excuses I have heard numerous times about not needing a helmet as strongly built as a motorcycle helmet is that we don't crash at motorcycle speeds. What a crock.

Yeah Paul. But it's NOT a crock that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Zack C - 2012/08/17 21:09:03 UTC

I have a hard time getting the other side to tell me when a weak link should break or what its breaking strength should be (as you might have been able to tell).

...a weak link is just an undefined piece of fishing line which increases the safety of the towing operation for a solo glider of any weight you wanna name and only fails if the glider pilot does something wrong.

Even when crashing at slower speeds the short pendulum swing of the pilot as the glider crashes into the ground can add quite a bit of force to the impact. I'm sure somebody on the .org can even figure out how much more.

On the .org not likely. But I can tell you that the pilot's head can't be moving any faster than the glider was immediately prior to it coming to an abrupt stop.

And a glider can move fast enough to make any helmet on the planet totally useless in terms of extending one's life expectancy an extra millisecond - just like a motorcycle can. On 2005/01/09 Robin Strid demonstrated that capacity pretty conclusively.

Like I have said before there are no good reasons to not wear a good helmet, there are only rationalizations.

Bullshit. There are situations in which people who would've been OK otherwise have been killed because of their helmets. Ditto with respect to seatbelts in automobiles. But that don't make flying without a helmet and driving without a fastened seatbelt good ideas.

Helen McKerral - 2010/08/27 23:56:37 UTC

I've mentioned this before but will say it again.

Many years ago I witnessed a pilot stall in and face plant with a full-face helmet. He broke a back tooth, was severely concussed, and required stitches where the bridge of his wire-framed glasses (note to spectacle-wearers, plastic frames and lenses are better!) had cut into the bridge of his nose.

The helmet did PRECISELY what it was designed to do.

When we inspected the helmet, it had cracked near where the jaw part meets the head part on each side. If it were designed to be more rigid or unbreakable, the impact would have snapped the pilot's neck. If he had been wearing an open face, his jaw and nose would have been a big mess.

The recent and excellent thread about helmets emphasised how slowing the impact by just fractions of a second greatly reduces trauma to the brain, so the jaw protection should not in fact be ridiculously strong. It works like a crumple zone, like the rest of the helmet. This is just a gut feeling, but I strongly suspect that if all HG pilots were to change to much stronger, stiffer, full-face helmets designed for different sports, we might see a decrease in brain trauma, but an increase in broken necks.

I went and bought the exact same full-face helmet after seeing how well it had worked.

Would've been real useful to have heard what precipitated the stall.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

johnpeace - 2010/08/28 00:05:51 UTC
NorthEast Georgia

None of these lightweight helmets is going to save you from a fatal brain injury in an impact with a solid object above 14 mph.

It's true.

I think the pilot (I know him) would have been hurt much worse (perhaps fatally) had he NOT been wearing a full-face helmet.

Oh. So we've had a crash with kill potential and we can add you to the list of people in the know who didn't feel it was worth reporting.

Maybe, had he been wearing a big full face motorcycle helmet, he wouldn't have broken his jaw.

And maybe - as Helen just tried to point out - there'd have been a good chance he'd have broken his neck instead.

Certainly, the helmet provided some level of protection between none and total. Being that the only injuries sustained in a 'fly the glider head first into the ground' accident, I'd say the pilot got off pretty light.

Did you ask him how great he feels about what was probably his exit from the sport?

-
H4 :: FL FSL CL AWCL TURB RLF XC
WW Talon 140
Member of the World's Greatest HG Club!

Yeah, great club y'all got there, John. You:

- let:
-- Bill Priday launch without a hook-in check from the Whitwell ramp
-- Chris Thale launch from six feet behind the red line with a high nose in high winds from the Henson Gap ramp

- just had an unnamed probable Hang Two wreck his glider and partially kill himself coming in for a landing and nobody's bothered to report the incident

Keep up the good work.

CAL - 2010/08/28 03:58:52 UTC

Someone already said it - the best way to protect yourself is with good skills!

This wasn't a skill thing - this was a basics/judgment thing. People shouldn't be putting themselves into landing situations in which their safety is dependent upon skill.

But no one is 100% all the time and I don't want to stop flying because I don't have those skills!

You don't NEED to be a hundred percent. You should be able to conduct everything you need to other than a foot launch at twenty or thirty percent and come out OK.

The reason why pilots and family don't like these kind of threads is because the pilot often gets referred to as being stupid for making such a mistake!

Sometimes the pilot IS stupid in these situations.

I still can't believe how stupid I was for trusting the assholes at Ridgely for as many years as I did on the issue of 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak links. But that doesn't hold a candle to the assholes who CONTINUE to use them after so much effort has gone into debunking that bullshit and the motherfuckers who continue to perpetrate it.

Ditto with respect to the assholes who continue to run off ramps a minute or two after having done hang checks at the backs of them. If somebody's made any effort to participate in the postmortem discussions he's heard the message and chosen to reject it.

I don't have any problem referring to these people as idiots regardless of how lucky they were or weren't. There comes a point at which you've gotta call a spade a spade.

This is where I get heated, it is one thing to discuss and learn from a mistake but if I were to call someone stupid, I would probably be the next to make a stupid mistake.

This guy's a victim of his training program but I can one hundred percent guarantee you that you won't catch me high over a field and slow with my hands on the downtubes.

In this world of flying you have to be on your game...

Not that much. It's a lot more about understanding what you're doing.

...and focused.

I would be so fuckin' dead so many times over if focus had much to do with it. And this crash had NOTHING to do with focus.

We humans are not perfect and, remember, it could be you people are talking about.

If I screw a(nother) pooch... Fine - let people talk all they want. If I'm still in good enough shape I'll be more than happy to participate in the discussion. Of course I'll have a lot of advantages that your average pooch screwer won't 'cause I know where A LOT of skeletons are buried.

I think it is great learning from mistakes and discussing them. I always think before I talk...

If you did a lot of thinking before you talked you'd be saying a lot more than you are now and likely have been kicked off The Jack Show.

...if it was me that everyone was talking about what would I want said.

The truth, maybe?

I hope we can all discuss situations like this in a learning healthy manner in a way that would not offend!

THIS:

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

dude, is MASSIVELY offensive. And you've stood by, watched it happen, and done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it. So spare me your concerns about learning in healthy manners and offensiveness.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Ryan Voight - 2010/08/28 04:29:20 UTC

None of these lightweight helmets is going to save you from a fatal brain injury in an impact with a solid object above 14 mph.

Not even that I disagree with the above... but it's a personal choice everyone gets to make.

Yeah Ryan, everyone gets to exercise a personal choice about what helmet he wants to use. And virtually NO ONE gets to exercise a personal choice about:
- how he'll satisfy USHGA's aerotow rating requirements
- for aerotowing - what:
-- weak link he'll use
-- release equipment he'll use
- whether or not he gets to stay on tow behind a tug driver thinking about making a good decision in the interest of his safety
- how he'll satisfy the landing requirement for his rating

Coming from a guy that chooses to put himself in pretty harrowing situations time and time again...

Just about all his flying is XC in the LA Basin.

...criticizing my helmet choice while making my flying look insanely safe by comparison...

Just about all your flying is boating around in smooth ridge lift at Point of the Mountain. So your flying IS insanely safe by comparison and you can con people into believing that by taking your clinics they can perfect their standup landings so they can safely do the kind of flying Jonathan does.

...just seems a little ironic.

Not to me.

It seems like, in nearly EVERY accident (especially lately), people are quick to look for faults in equipment.

Yeah Ryan, as long as you're using a loop of 130 pound Greenspot you've something that, if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), will break before you can get into too much trouble - and use as an instant hands free release even if it doesn't.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 23:09:12 UTC

Remember kids, always blame the equipment.

So we don't really need to worry about top notch equipment because if there were really better stuff available everyone would be using it already.

I don't know if they're looking for excuses for the accident, or for the injuries, or subconsciously trying to make themselves feel like there's a reason it happened to Joe and it won't happen to me because ******?

I notice that a lot with unhooked launch postmortems. Everybody is always one hundred percent confident that he can skip the hook-in check and rely on the hang check more effectively than the previous twenty dead guys 'cause his discipline and memory is so vastly superior superior to theirs - as obviously evidenced by the fact that his system has always worked for him.

I don't know the details of this specific incident...

Nobody does. Thanks bigtime, Tennessee Tree Toppers.

...but sounds like he CRASHED. Yes, we wear helmets in case of a crash. But that does not mean it's guaranteed to save us... or even help us whatsoever. To think so is fooling yourself. There's no guarantees. You could wear a helmet UNDER your helmet, with a helmet over that, and still crash and die of a brain injury.

Or a broken neck. Yes. Helmets - like weak links and parachutes - are POST safety equipment only.

WHEELS - on the other hand - can be used while the glider is still under control. And it never hurts to have them at the end of the flight even if the glider has gotten out of control.

But I don't hear you talking about them.

In the event of a crash or accident, all bets are off, and we can just hope for the best...

And how we define "the best" depends a lot on who's doing the crashing.

It's pretty sad to see people quick to fault gear for every mishap or injury...

Especially after the hardworking people at Quest and Lookout have put so much effort into perfecting aerotow equipment for nearly two decades.

...to me, it comes off as irresponsible, and it makes me wonder if these people really understand the risks and consequences of our decisions.

"OUR" decisions? You mean like the decisions of your dad and you to kill the hook-in check message? Yeah, at least a few of us understand the risks and consequences of your decisions REAL well.

As a guy who crashed pretty damn good (?!) and was ok because of nothing more than luck and a teeny tiny bit of presence of mind.... I know.... if I hit the hill squarely, I would have died, no matter WHAT helmet I wore. And if I did, and everyone were to fault the helmet... well that's not helping anyone learn anything...

And after you've done so much to help clean up the REAL problems in hang gliding. What a tragedy something like that would be.

Rcpilot - 2010/08/28 05:01:35 UTC

You preach safety all the time, then come up with a post like that?

What he preaches is hang gliding industry crap.

Do really think using good safety equipment is a waste of time?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 20:51:52 UTC

My whole point is that people tend to "hang on" too long trying to save things, rather than recognize a bad situation and release (one way or another), go back, and reset.

Yep.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC
Soddy Daisy

If this is the incident I'm thinking of...

*IF* THIS IS THE INCIDENT YOU'RE THINKING OF?!?!?!
How many landing crashes in which a jaw and leg were broken have you Chattanooga area divers had in the last few weeks?

...at Henson's Gap...

Great job reporting this one, Tree Toppers.

...then I met the young gentleman and also saw his helmet. He fractured his femur in two locations and broke his jaw in three places.

Great job reporting this one, Keith.

The incident was described to me as such.

1. By whom?
2. What special qualities do you have to have merited a report from this guy?

He was a low time pilot...

But I guess it would be a violation of THE CODE AMONGST ALL PILOTS if you said anything about his rating or glider model.

...and got hit hard with a thermal about a hundred feet above the LZ. Caused him to come in with significant speed and with a wing low.

Oh. He got hit hard with a thermal about a hundred feet above the LZ and that CAUSED him to come in with significant speed and with a wing low. Yep, sounds like this one was inevitable. Nothing he could've done different or better. Every time we come into an LZ in strong thermal conditions it's just a dice roll.

But, as The Great Mitch Shipley recently said shortly after pounding PJ's face into the same LZ:

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

Low wing struck the ground and he basically pinwheeled around it.

Visibly the helmet looked fine. Closer inspection showed the chin guard to be broken, though not severely. My guess is the helmet hit the ground and then his jaw contacted the helmet.

With so little padding around the chin in hang gliding helmets, it's not surprising a significant face contact with the ground results in broken jaws. Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder. It was a hang gliding helmet, don't remember the specifics though.

Oh joy! THIS is THIS:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

1. Yeah Keith, it really WAS pretty ugly!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?

Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.

2. Funny... Id'a thunk that something that ugly would've merited a little space in the magazine and...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

David W. Johnson - 2009/04/11 05:46:23 UTC

I have the loop style that LMFP makes. Matt is particular about the quality of the product that goes out and you will get something reliable. I was there one time when they had a new person make a batch of them. Matt was unhappy with the quality and cut them all in half to ensure they could not be sent out. I hope that tells you about their quality.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27127
Aerotow at LMFP

David W. Johnson - 2012/09/14 12:03:15 UTC

I learned at LMFP. Great staff. Great vibe there. No complaints at all.

...I'm SURE someone as dedicated to hang gliding safety as Matt is would've sent a report in. I can only think that Tim Herr intercepted it because it violated USHGA's policy against attributing anything more serious than inconvenience to its 130 pound Greenspot focal point of the safe towing system.

3. Thanks bigtime for helping us out in the war against 130 pound Greenspot douchebags.

Try this out if you don't understand the problem. Put your hang gliding helmet on and either use your hands to push the front of your helmet back, or use a couch or something and push your head down with the chin guard contacting the object. My bet is, your chin will touch the chin guard, and if yours is like mine, there is next to no padding on the chin guard. It's easy to see how you get a broken jaw, and impact with the ground where you hit fairly flat or with your chin is probably a guaranteed broken jaw.

I think I understand the problem, Keith - and it has shit to do with the chin guard. It has to do with why a low time pilot ended up cartwheeling, destroying his glider, and breaking his jaw in three places and a femur in two as a consequence of being hit by a thermal a hundred feet over a huge well groomed primary landing field.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

NMERider - 2010/08/28 05:29:50 UTC

It's funny how the mere mention of the "H" word pushes enough hot buttons to send many threads off topic. Try this on most bicycling forums sometime and watch the fireworks begin.
The worthy topic that Chad May started is:

How many accidents aren't reported?

I think this is a very worthy topic and that it merits its own discussion aside from the ever-present helmet debate.
I believe that the issue of concerns for the pilot's and family's privacy has been brought up here and in several other accident related threads in the past.
The meritorious question of gossip has also been raised by the Chad May.
I raised the issue of harassment against the pilot/OP and will continue to raise it and rally against it until it subsides to the level of good-natured teasing and nothing more.

Hey Jonathan...

Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that there's virtually NEVER harassment of the instructor when someone's signed off for situations he obviously had shit capacity to deal with?

I think that it's well known and understood that a tremendous amount of crime is never reported by victims due to the propensity for "well-meaning" police, neighbors, family, friends, etc. who all too often dogmatically blame the victim. Self-righteousness is one sadder aspects of human nature.

This guy is unlikely to do any reporting 'cause he's probably trying to forget that he'd ever even heard about the sport.

Paul Hurless - 2010/08/28 06:00:46 UTC

The reason the safety equipment comes into question is because of the varying levels of quality of the most likely to be needed piece of safety equipment, helmets, that are used in this sport. It sucks to see someone injured in a crash and then find out that they didn't want to use good equipment because of the usual B.S. reasons we see posted here. Things like it's too heavy, or too confining, or too expensive, or doesn't look cool, etc.

Hey Paul...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11998
Tad Report...

Paul Hurless - 2009/05/15 01:43:43 UTC

Yes, I can do better. It took me all of 2 minutes to come up with a simple (darn, the KISS principal keeps popping up) system that only has two moving parts; the cord to actuate it and the actual release that holds onto the tow line. It's almost completely internal in the control bar and a downtube, only emerging at the control bar for the hand to actuate it and at the top of the downtube where it goes to the release mechanism. No pulleys, springs, or bungees needed. If you are doubting me I could send you a sketch.

Have a nice day.

Paul Hurless - 2009/05/15 03:02:47 UTC

I'll have to draw it out legibly and then scan it so it may be a day or so.

1. The reason you took your pen to that napkin was that you could come up with something superior to what I or anybody else has been able to achieve for a two point aerotow system.

2. So you're saying - in effect - that what's available is dangerous junk.

3. There's no question from hearing the incident, crash, and fatality reports and looking at the photos and videos that just about all of what's out there is dangerous junk.

4. So where's the fuckin' sketch?

Pilots make mistakes. That's the reason for the safety gear. Most pilots have never needed to use a parachute, should we stop using them since the odds are in favor of most of us not needing them? That doesn't make any better sense than wearing a crappy helmet. A hang glider pilot is much more likely to receive a strong whack on the melon more than once in a flying career so why is there such resistance to wearing a quality helmet???

A quality helmet...

- Heavy enough to protect in a high speed impact, light enough to not cause fatigue or contribute enough inertia to snap a neck.

- Facial opening narrow enough to protect against penetration by a rock, wide enough to give the peripheral vision to avoid a midair.

- Chin guard substantial enough to protect against a broken jaw, low profile enough to minimize the chances of it catching and breaking the pilot's neck.

- Shell resistant enough to minimize penetration, giving enough to crumple and minimize shock brain deceleration.

You only know what a quality helmet is when you know the details of the particular crash it's gonna be involved in. If you're torn between a couple of different models flip a coin and learn to start liking and making a case for what you ended up with.

We are not looking for reasons for the crash when we question these things, we are questioning why the injuries are so severe in some cases when they shouldn't necessarily be.

The injuries resulting from this crash were and should have been SEVERE. Stop talking about fucking helmets and start talking about why this guy wasn't trained to deal with that situation before he was signed off.

You're right about there being no guarantees, except for one thing, wearing some of the hang gliding specific helmets guarantee that you won't get any protection from an impact much stronger than just bumping your head when you stand up under the keel of your glider too quickly. Is that the level of protection we should be satisfied with?

Worked for me. Kept my head warm and was a great base for building in a radio headset.

Yes, it's an individual choice, but that doesn't make it the family feel any better when they have to deal with it. If you want to take a chance on getting dain bramage instead of a headache, then go ahead and wear a pudding bowl.

Where SOMETHING half decent that makes swinging into the keel less painful and has chin guard and learn how to fly.

Just hoping for the best is ridiculous when it's so easy to take simple preventative measures.

Where's the fuckin' sketch, Paul? What's the problem? Did you get so sidetracked pissing all over everything I've ever done that it just slipped your mind?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Nic Welbourn - 2010/08/28 08:59:35 UTC
Canberra

Assuming there is no disrespect, learning from others seems such a better approach than losing your face or worse.

We really need to stop handing out respect to every asshole with some kind of card in his wallet. It needs to be EARNED.

This motherfucker:




got only the tiniest fraction of what he deserves.

I believe most incidents/accidents (not directly involving the police) are probably not even reported - what a shame when there is much to be
learned from such information.

1. Duh.

2. There's virtually NOTHING to be learned from any of these other than we need to go up the chain of command and hold people accountable - and hang gliding REFUSES to do that.

Nobody likes their mistakes to be aired in public, but this is really important. Most won't want to share their bad experiences unless they are actively assured it's likely to help a bunch more people with the same troubles in the future...

How 'bout this one?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21474
fatal accident in Israel

Christopher LeFay - 2011/04/28 11:06:27 UTC

First couple years of flying: I had the glider on my shoulders and was just repositioning my feet when stopped by a pilot. He had watched as I skipped the hang check and allowed me get all the way to commitment before sounding the alarm. I was unhooked. I couldn't stop shaking for the better part of an hour.

That - for the purpose of the exercise - is a KILL. And Christopher bloody well knows it.
And just how much good has he been in getting behind the hook-in check message?
And how come the shit flight park / school he works for is happily pumping out students to do hang checks behind launch and run off ramps?

Maybe mandatory anonymous reporting would help??

This:

Pushed out hard enough to release...

is the kind of total crap you get from mandatory anonymous reporting.

Or is that idea stuff of fantasy?

As long as the people doing the training are the same ones investigating and reporting the crashes, serving as USHGA Directors and committee chairs, and insulating themselves from the FAA and civil and criminal prosecution... Yes.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Robert Seckold - 2010/08/28 10:26:37 UTC

I think Helen made a very good observation...

The helmet did PRECISELY what it was designed to do.

Anyone remember when cars were built big and strong as steel. All that did was transfer all of the energy of the crash to the occupants. This was the reason why now cars have crumple zones and are much lighter, they absorb the energy stopping a lot of it before it gets to the passengers.
Brain injury comes from the brain bouncing around inside your skull. I am quite happy with my Charley No-Limit helmet until they come up with a helmet with built in air bags.

Ryan Voight - 2010/08/28 13:51:21 UTC

I think what I was saying was misinterpreted (rereading what I wrote, I can certainly see how that could happen). I should have said something along the lines of what's quoted above, and left it at that.

My point was just that, we wear the best combination of strong and practical safety gear, and all we can really do is hope that it works.

No Ryan. The best we can do is do everything we can to minimize the chances of our being in situations in which it matters whether or not it works. And you're a major fucking obstacle to efforts along those lines.

Someone could crash with the best motorcycle helmet in the world, and still get a brain injury (don't people riding motorcycles get them all the time in crashes?)

Blame the CRASH for the injuries, not the safety equipment...

And who do we blame the crash on? It's always most convenient to blame it entirely on the dead guy so how much of a surprise is it that USHGA has taken that path?

...unless the equipment was BLATANTLY inappropriate.

You mean like THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.

No stress because I was high.

So how much effort have assholes like you made to get that shit out of the air?

I have seen no evidence to the latter in this discussion.

We haven't seen much evidence of ANYTHING in this discussion. And that lack of evidence is excellent evidence about the core nature of the problem.

As NME pointed out... we're way off topic.

Well you should probably Vote to Bury then.

How many accidents are reported? Very few. The accident report form is available on the USHPA site, and *ANYONE* can fill it out.

And then he can send it off to USHGA where Tim can decide whether or not he feels like glancing at it before he runs it through the shredder.

If you're not sure if someone reported something or not, fill it out. They know how to combine duplicates at the office, and the more information the better!

BULL FUCKING SHIT. You want something to see the light of day then post it somewhere on the web where the hang gliding industry can't get its slimy hands on it and edit, suppress, hide, or delete it.

Again, sorry if my original post gave the wrong impression...

That's OK, Ryan. I don't have the LEAST trouble interpreting any of your posts.

Ann Fawkes - 2010/08/28 16:51:05 UTC
Western Europe

Without my Charly No Limit (fullface with visor) helmet I would be missing all my front teeth and have a crooked nose.

Knocked my face really hard on the base bar last weekend. Just a nose bleed. And some panda-bear eyes for some days, but already looking cute again.

Oh. And yes. I know I need to work on my landing skills and try to avoid landing on my face.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?

Ann Fawkes - 2011/03/02 10:52:50 UTC

If the conditions are so that you need to choose between a "controlled" wheel landing or a "risky" foot landing, go for the wheels and try the foot landing in better conditions. Landing unharmed is your first priority.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

Glenn Zapien - 2010/08/28 16:52:50 UTC

The pilot I saw fly back into the hill died of blunt trauma to the forehead. He hit the only boulder on that side of the hill dead center. He was breathing when we got to him within five minutes, but what we saw was brutal. And the helmet was intact, some crackage where he hit, but my thoughts on how his head hit was because the opening on his Charly was big enough that it allowed his head to hit the rock. That is my only concern with the Charly, which I fly with.

Probably a good idea to avoid flying into boulders dead center back on the sides of the hills then.

Rcpilot - 2010/08/28 20:45:02 UTC

OK, I found the accident report form.
http://www.ushpa.aero/forms.asp
But I could not find the actual reports?

Yeah. Go figure.
Funny how easy it is to find lists of schools, instructors, and clubs though, isn't it?

Ryan Voight - 2010/08/28 20:56:59 UTC

The reports go to USHPA, where all personal information is removed.

Yeah Ryan.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16439
Some day we will learn

Steve Morris - 2010/03/31 23:58:54 UTC

In 2009 there were several serious hang gliding accidents involving pilots on the HG forum (or who had close friends on the forum that reported that these accidents had occurred). In each case there was an immediate outcry from forum members not to discuss these accidents, usually referring to the feelings of the pilots' families as a reason to not do so. In each case it was claimed that the facts would eventually come out and a detailed report would be presented and waiting for this to happen would result in a better informed pilot population and reduce the amount of possibly harmful speculation.

In each of these cases I have never seen a final detailed accident report presented in this forum. So far as I can tell, the accident reporting system that has been assumed to exist here doesn't exist at all, the only reports I've seen are those published in the USHPA magazine. They are so stripped down, devoid of contextual information and important facts that in many cases I have not been able to match the magazine accident report with those mentioned in this forum.

The end result has been that effective accident reporting is no longer taking place in the USHPA magazine or in this forum. Am I the only one who feels this way?

That's not all that gets removed.

They are then published to the membership, I believe via the magazine ("newsletter").

Yeah, sure they do. I think it's in the bylaws somewhere.

Hang/Para alternate bimonthly if I'm not mistaken?

When have you ever been mistaken about ANYTHING, Ryan?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Blaine Perkins - 2010/08/28 21:46:51 UTC
Idaho

Last weekend I watched my friend pound in the main LZ at King. He stalled his Fusion from fifteen feet (head height) with no wind. He hit his head hard enough to break a semicircle in the top of his Charly full face type helmet. His forehead had a large bruised area. Also cracked the side between the ear hole and face opening on one side. He had one hell of a headache the next day.

Yeah, Blaine, that's why you need to be rotated to vertical before you come in very far an final. Just ask George Stebbins if you don't believe me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-36aQ3Hg33c


(He WAS still prone when he stalled, right?)

No obvious concussion since the eyes were the same and no fluid from the ears...

GREAT!!! So what other kind of aircraft can you think of that commonly come into big flat designated fields in no wind and crash so hard the pilot's helmet is destroyed?

My take on that is the helmet worked perfect by absorbing lots of force.

Yep. Gotta love that helmet!

During the King meet last month I also watched as a morning sled ride resulted in a fence landing that had the fence try to take off the front of the guy's face.

John Simon? Nice long final so he had plenty of time to set up, get vertical, and nail that traffic cone?

Almost a week in the hospital and some future plastic surgery, but he survived I think due to the Charly Insider full face helmet keeping the wire fence / ground from getting a free shot at his face. Here's a shot of his helmet...

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=15229

Good job! Nevertheless, probably not a great idea to make fence landings too often.

Lastly I lost a friend maybe seven years ago to a paragliding landing. He was an excellent hang-glider pilot learning the pg thing going for a spot landing.

A SPOT LANDING!!!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?

Doug Doerfler - 2011/03/02 05:24:44 UTC

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.

Who'da thunk!

He was wearing a heavy motorcycle helmet. I heard his landing looked like he probably broke both legs, but ended up snapping his neck due to the weight of his helmet during the crash and died instantly.

Well, yeah, but...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13864
My new wing

Jason Boehm - 2009/10/05 14:40:54 UTC
Stapleton, Colorado

wow I have never heard someone say spots were unncessecary.....

just this weekend I landed in an LZ on my sensor surrounded by bushed 6-7 feet high, the LZ is 340 feet long, and higher on the downwind sideby 11 feet(according to google earth)

which means that if you are just on top of the bushes you are ~18 feet higher then the end 340 feet away

which puts it an 18.9/1 glide from the tops of bushes to hitting bushes, as you can imagine landing a glider that gets 12/13:1, you need to have your altitude and airspeed spot on the money if you want to land in here, a litle extra speed and you are in the bushes: 5 feet high? in the bushes, don't forget to throw in wind/gradient/lift/sink and turbulence

but yes...spots are stupid and uncessary

...if he had lived he'd have probably needed to do a spot landing sometime down the road to keep himself safe.

I think I'll stick with my lightweight Charly Insider full face.

Any opinion on spot landings? Just kidding.

P.S. I love this thread...

Yeah, it's a real gem to be sure.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

CAL - 2010/08/28 22:04:05 UTC

As Jim Rooney puts it the proof is in the pudding, examples are worth millions. Thanks for your post!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.

BJ Herring - 2010/08/28 23:35:58 UTC

Ouch

It's tricky, but for those that don't feel the need to submit their accident reports to USHPA, the community's gentle nudges are definitely justified. I've sent my one major wreck to USHPA and it was published in the magazine with the others.

WHEN? When USHGA was still making a pretense of being concerned about pilot safety?

If the wrecker doesn't feel motivated, observers can submit them I think? Anyone know for sure?

Yeah. Unless it was a fatal you can get your rating revoked if you submit an accident report if it wasn't you who screwed the pooch. For a fatal you hafta be either the instructor who signed him off, the guy at the other end of the string who made a good decision in the interest of his safety, or the flight park operator.

The choice is ours. Use the magazine/USHPA to help our bro's learn or let complacency win one to save a friendship if the wrecker doesn't want the info out.

Fuck the magazine/USHPA. Submitting an accident report is the surest way I can think of - short of burying the guy in a shallow grave - to keep the info from getting out.

Not preachin' to you guys, just the guy not reading this likely. 'Nuff said.

Not by a long shot.

I've had several retired helmets. One 600 buck Arai motorcycle helmet, one Charly Insider (full face HG), another HG one, and recently one Icaro 4fight (full face HG). A new 4Fight just arrived at my instructor's place thank goodness.

What? The foam was shot so the helmets no longer offered adequate protection? Why just retire them?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Jim Gaar - 2011/07/14 15:40:13 UTC

In a litigious society like the U.S. it's all part of the game. If you don't like it, you just take your ball and go home...

This is the reality of the sport we love. "Always the student". Learn how to use it or don't. You just missed out on what every American pilot already knows from birth.

We assume risk every day. Sometimes with a LMFP release. Hope you get your issues ironed out. The classified section is ready if you don't.

Why not put them up on eBay?

I know guys that have had HG wrecks with the heavy motorcycle helmets and it seems to fracture a certain vertebrae (Number 2 or something).

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 23:09:12 UTC

Yeah, damn those pesky safety devices!

Remember kids, always blame the equipment.

Anyway, my motorcycle wreck with my Arai had me cracking my melon hard enough to rub a bunch of the uber-hard shell off... Made sense that it needed to cover me for multiple impacts when wrecking at 60 mph... It was full of deer hair when I stopped sliding. Zero concussion effects from what I remember.

Not remembering any concussion effects is an almost sure sign that you had a severe concussion.

The first HG wreck in my Charly Insider, which I admit I don't remember the impact, left me with a black eye (it was full face though) and a solid concussion. The helmet appeared to be in fine shape afterwards if I remember right.

So how and why did you wreck? That's the more important information.

Another HG / full face one where I rang my bell the hardest of all was a side hit on the ground with my head. Saw stars and weirdness for twenty minutes and went to the ER to make sure I didn't have anything too serious when I got a little pukey feeling.

Latest wreck, landed downwind on accident and was CRUISING in a fifteenish downwind. Did a wimpy flare, whacked like a man... So hard I tumbled and was laying on top of my Atos VR afterwards. Dude, I've never whacked like that in nine years. But been married ten so getting better at it. LMAO.

Opinions on these wrecks later... and helmets... Got to run to the pool with the kids!

BJ

P.S. I'd like to say I've reported them all but only the first went as an accident report because I was literally lucky to be alive. The others were kinda shit happens kinda things... Except the most recent...

Shit seems to happen a lot less frequently to people more interested in making the safest landing for the circumstances than in practicing dangerous landings to compensate for dangerous circumstances.