landing

[miguel]

Landing on wheels requires a longer, lower approach and also extended roll out distance.

Any argument with that?

Goddam right I do.

1. Granted, for any given airspeed, you come in at a steeper angle upright than prone. But a proner can easily eliminate that issue with a drag chute or...

Mix in a bit of truth with the bullshit. Gets them every time.
Ann would be so proud.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Give the footlanding pilot a drag chute and he will still land steeper and shorter than a wheel lander.

...or, hell, by making the approach upright and going back to prone a couple of seconds prior to touchdown.

close works in horse shoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons but not much else.

2. Big fuckin' deal. So what? If you really want a high short approach get a Falcon or a paraglider.

Since we are buying new equipment, why not get a helicopter and land exactly where you want.

3. A bit of wind can make the issue completely irrelevant.

Wind will have more effect on the upright pilot with the result being that the upright pilot will land with a steeper approach and have a shorter landing.

4. If you've pushed your luck a bit you might want every fraction of a glide point you can get.

True, unless there is an obstacle in the way.

5. How much runway is he eating up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIBX6HZovK8


11:35
12:08
12:35

Three or four yards? Big fuckin' deal.

He is at the Happy Acres LZ. Large, limitless, open, cut grass lz. Very Nice!

I watched Doug make a perfect touch down on his landing. Unfortunately, he touched down very close to the setup area. He put on the maximum amount of braking and ended up stopping inches from a parked glider.

And I've watched spot foot landers start onto final high over the first third of the field and fly off the end of it. Doug ended up stopping inches from a parked glider because he squandered tons of usable runway - not because he ate up another five yards of stopping distance.

Doug landed during a flush cycle. There were 3 or 4 other gliders landing at the same time. Doug landed off to the side and long, so he would not block the lz. Things worked out ok overall.

I was flying a new site. I came in high over the lz and decided it was not an lz.

You came in high over *THE* LZ and decided it was not an LZ? "Landing Zone" implies an established field at an established flying site. None of them are marginal 'cause if they are people get hurt at unsustainable rates.

This was an established flying site and I walked the lz prior to flying it.

1. How many more landings did you make there?

I landed there once. After that landing, I decided that it was not a flying site for me.

2. So what you're saying is that if someone fails to dive into it and snap a flare for a perfect fly on the wall no step landing and isn't lined up within half a wingspan of centerline he's fucked.

The landing choices were:

1. A downhill wood cutter's slot, about 1.5 wingspans wide, ending in a pile of logs. Piling into the trees or the logs would have hurt.
2. A down hill slope surrounded by trees. While I was in the air, I saw a glider overun and hit the trees. They were low pines so there was no damage.
3. The clearing on the edge of the muckpond. Short you land in the muckpond which probably would dissolve you and the glider. Long, hit some trees.
4. None of those looked good to me and the trees were getting bigger. I picked a small clearing on a steep hillside and landed there. It required the steep approach and a quick snap flare.

3. If you can encourage others to make sure their cameras are rolling when they use that LZ I'd really appreciate it.

I will put in a word with the wood nymphs and faireys.

This strip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaTu5Y4WBdY

18-3704


is easily foot landable. Good luck getting the unpleasant foot landing efforts down to the level you'd have if everyone wheel landed.

Pilot error. If he had wheels, stalled and got turned downwind, the result would be the same.

They might not do you much good HERE:

There is no savannah and there are no lions around here.
However there are mountain lions. I hope they are skittish enough to be scared by the glider.

or HERE:

All of that hot lava would heat up the surrounding air. No landing needed. Put the glider on a tip,
get high, go far, then land safely.

Gliders that come down in fields with rocks, corn, wheat, tall grass, lions, and molten lava in them tend not to come out with statistics as good as those who come down on putting greens.

This guy has even better statistics.

I don't give a flying fuck about his opinion. I give a flying fuck that what he's saying is consistent with logic, physics, video evidence, statistics, and my personal experience and is a lot closer to the way conventional aircraft land...

Conventional aircraft have superior pitch control and precise glide slope control in addition to wheels. Wheels work fine in Happy Acres where precise glide slope control is not needed. They do not work as well in areas where the ground is unsuitable for wheels or where a pinpoint, no step landing is needed.

Wheels are fine if you always land at Happy Acres.

*A prudent pilot will develop good foot landing skills*

[Tad Eareckson]

Ann would be so proud.

Ann would be ripping her clothes off to dive into bed with Dennis Pagen then.

Give the footlanding pilot a drag chute and he will still land steeper and shorter than a wheel lander.

What is it that you're landing in that requires so much steepness and shortness that the pilot needs to be upright and have a drag chute out? I'd really like to know so I can make a special point of not landing in it.

close works in horse shoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons but not much else.

Close works in tons of stuff we do in hang gliding. When people start doing shit that requires horseshoes close they start dying. I cite Chris Muller as a prime example.

Since we are buying new equipment, why not get a helicopter and land exactly where you want.

'Cause landing exactly where I want ceased being any kind of priority of mine very early in my flying career when I discovered you could snap two downtubes at once in the effort. After that I contented myself with where the fuck ever and carrying my glider the other fifty yards to make up the difference.

Wind will have more effect on the upright pilot with the result being that the upright pilot will land with a steeper approach and have a shorter landing.

What is it that you're landing in that requires the pilot to be upright and have a fair breeze in his face?

True, unless there is an obstacle in the way.

Isn't the obstacle even more in the way if you have a lower lift to drag ratio?

He is at the Happy Acres LZ. Large, limitless, open, cut grass lz. Very Nice!

Agreed. The polar opposite of very crappy. I so do like my slots, ramps, dollies, crew, tugs, equipment, and landing areas to be very nice.

Things worked out ok overall.

Sounds to me like things were marginal enough so that Doug and others present were sweating it a bit. You don't wanna be in those situations too frequently 'cause eventually something's gonna get bent or dented.

This was an established flying site and I walked the lz prior to flying it.

And a single loop of 130 pound Cortland Greenspot braided Dacron trolling line has been well established as...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Based on several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county, the de facto standard has become use of a 260 lb. weak link made as a loop of 130 lb. green spot IGFA [ref 12] Dacron braided fishing line attached to one end of the pilot's V-bridle. It is a de facto standard, because it works for most pilots and gliders and is usually near the USHPA recommendation of a nominal 1G weak link for most pilots.

...the ideal standard aerotow weak link for all solo gliders because it works for them and is usually near the USHPA recommendation.

The problem is that most of people establishing things in this sport are total fucking morons.

After that landing, I decided that it was not a flying site for me.

Exactly. It was a flying site for birds, gamblers, and people who'd perfected their standup spot landings.

It required the steep approach and a quick snap flare.

Any special instructions for the new Hang Twos?

If he had wheels, stalled and got turned downwind, the result would be the same.

Yes. But if he had wheels and the intent to use them he'd have been flying the fucking glider instead of fumbling around for the downtubes in preparation for practicing his idiot goddam foot landing and he'd have put it down about the way Doug does.

I hope they are skittish enough to be scared by the glider.

Probably...
http://www.kitestrings.org/post1429.html#p1429
...not. But you can always bring Sam in to shoot them if you find them overly annoying.

This guy has even better statistics.

Our statistics should be about the same. My risk of getting fucked up waiting at the gate at BWI for a flight to LAX aren't much higher than they are in the course of the takeoff, climb, cruise descent, and landing on the other side of the continent. There've been plenty of good hang glider pilots who've demonstrated that we can do as well.

Conventional aircraft have superior pitch control and precise glide slope control in addition to wheels.

We're not crashing hang gliders because of their inferior pitch and imprecise glide slope control. We're crashing hang gliders and mangling people in fields which require no precision whatsoever to approach because we're ALWAYS practicing landings which require so much flare timing precision to safely execute that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

...we hafta spend half our hang gliding careers reading Rooney posts and attending Ryan clinics to pretend we can master them.

Wheels work fine in Happy Acres where precise glide slope control is not needed.

In other words, wheels work fine in damn near all safe landing fields.

They do not work as well in areas where the ground is unsuitable for wheels or where a pinpoint, no step landing is needed.

Like at the flying site you decided wasn't really a flying site.

Wheels are fine if you always land at Happy Acres.

Or McClure.

*A prudent pilot will develop good foot landing skills*

So there's no such thing as a prudent sailplane or ultralight sailplane pilot.

So because hang gliders are CAPABLE of the procedure that results in the highest injury rate of any in the sport - almost always during practice in the Happy Acres putting green - the pilot isn't prudent unless he continually practices the procedure that's most likely to get him injured and his career interrupted or ended.

And once the prudent pilot masters this skill he'll be able to more safely exercise the imprudence required for landing in dangerous environments in which his chances of getting injured and/or...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.

...fucking up his glider are quadrupled.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27885
question about vertical position

ann.onimus07 - 2012/12/28 14:47:40 UTC

I am not a hang glider, not even a pilot but I like aviation.
My question is this:

Is it safe to fly a hang glider in vertical position with a paramotor harness? Why do most of the people (if not all) fly in horizontal position? Is it because of "holy tradition" or is it because of safety?

"Holy tradition" is the reason behind backup loops, hang checks, standup and spot landings, 130 pound Greenspot, and bent pin releases - but not flying prone.

hangster - 2012/12/28 15:39:30 UTC

Streamlined (less drag)
Better Control

Except under a hundred feet in the vicinity of the LZ. Then the physics of hang glider control changes and you're in much better shape upright. Just ask anybody.

Red Howard - 2012/12/28 17:38:06 UTC

If safety comes from more control authority, you have more control authority when prone.

Remember, Red - except on approach.

It's also sleeker, but more dangerous in a crash.

A couple things here...

- What generally causes crashes is loss of control and you're about fifty times more likely to crash with the miserable control authority you have upright or the total loss of it that often comes with the transition and less than perfectly timed flares.

- Count on plowing in face first when you crash because of the compromises involved in trying to land on your feet.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3740
Stuck harness zipper

Greg Angsten - 2013/01/02 18:08:43 UTC
Westchester, California

After a surprisingly nice flight on New Year's Eve that got us over 6K and able to do a little travelling, I went out to land, a little on the low side since I'd been scratching for awhile. I went to unzip as I got to the bridge and found an inch or two section of my zipper had split open just below the bottom slider. The zipper wouldn't budge and neither would the velcro. Lots of struggle with the glider flopping all over the place and I finally gave up trying to get out and resigned myself to landing zipped up.

I'd have struggled with that for about two seconds and thrown in the towel BEFORE the glider started flopping all over the place. Zipper obsession has been the main issue in more than one landing fatality report.

After a circle or two over the LZ I turned downwind at what was probably about my typical altitude for starting the approach. I knew my glide angle would be shallower being zipped up and slick so I expected to do a deep, long approach and went all the way out to the powerlines on my downwind but I was still too high as I was losing altitude very slowly on the Litespeed. A big base and I still had to do S turns to get lined up low enough as the last thing I wanted to do was overshoot the LZ and wind up in rocks going head first. Finally got it low and straightened out but I still ate up the whole LZ as there was no wind at all and I was coming in pretty hot. I had a quarter to a third VG on too to give me a stronger flare.

Yeah, a good flare is always a critical to a good landing - especially at a primary LZ when you're trapped in your pod.

At the base of the overshoot ramp I hammered it. One thing about being prone is that it is easy to find and get to the rear wires so I reached back and threw them forward, popping me around nicely and landing on the point of my harness boot. The glider dropped on the base bar and I followed it of course, but I was delighted to see how well it had all turned out.

So the glider ended up on the basetube - just like it would have if you had bellied in, 'cept a lot harder.

A dirty harness but no injury to me at all, although I must have fallen into my downtube as it now had a bow in it.

Just like a belly landing - minus the bowed downtube.

In retrospect, I might have been able to rip the zipper apart at the point where it was splitting and still gotten out but I didn't want to get too low while being focused on the harness and crashing somewhere nasty. I certainly should have taken another circle before going downwind and I think that's something I'll remember if it happens again...

You blew the approach. Altitude is ALWAYS easy to get rid of until you're short on final.

...but I was pleased to see how easy it was to flare from the wires in that situation and get a reasonably good outcome.

1. But you didn't see how totally unnecessary it was to flare at all in that situation.
2. It wasn't as good an outcome as you could've had minus the stunt landing bullshit.

Now you can all tell me how I should have been flying with wheels.

Why bother? You had a backup loop on your glider so why fly with anything of such marginal value as wheels?

Robert Bustamante - 2013/01/02 20:53:21 UTC

A while back, Deno came in prone, and still zipped up... He made the landing look so easy.

Like an Olympic gymnast makes a dismount from a balance beam look so easy. But if you look at the overall long term averages of the safety of that procedure...

He flared hard, stopping the glider instantly. Holding the flare, he rested on the tip at the toes.

Yeah, it's amazing what you can pull off in the absence of turbulence.

His hands still on the down tubes; his glider softly came down, resting on the base tube.

Everyone cheered at the coolness he demonstrated.

Yeah, there's no higher goal in hang glider landings than demonstrating coolness - no matter how many downtubes and arms are broken in pursuit of that goal.

It sounds like you used your cool...

Fuck his cool.

...and did what was needed.

What he first NEEDED to do was not eat up all of his runway. He majorly screwed that pooch.
The next thing he needed to do was not get injured. He passed.
The next priority was to stop without damaging his glider. Given the circumstances he gets a D for that one.

Thanks for the tip in suggesting the wires as a resort.

Let's hear what Jonathan has to say on this issue.

NMERider - 2013/01/02 21:08:26 UTC

Greg,

Thank you for the report and I'm glad it turned out well with only a bowed downtube. Please carefully check both of your Litespeed corner brackets for cracks. They have a reputation for being brittle castings and cracking.

Your downtube probably bowed due to compression failure. I have done pancake landings and never touched a downtube yet one or both failed. This is strictly from the compression on the DTs from my body and harness mass snapping the hang strap down hard as the base bar hits the deck.

I have done many belly landings and have found them pretty easy and benign.

Even without wheels. Imagine that.

My feeling is that by trying to do a full flare while zipped up in a pod harness rather than simply sliding in on the harness shell I am risking a broken neck and possible paralysis or death.

That ain't just a feeling, Jonathan. We've got plenty of data on this. And you don't need to be zipped up in a pod to make it happen.

I am concerned that any error can result in getting whipped forward into the ground followed by a head, neck, or spine injury.

Again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-36aQ3Hg33c


You don't need to be zipped up in a pod for this to make it happen.

Having slid into home plate face-first on my harness shell numerous times in up to a 10 mph downwind on asphalt or wet sand, I have found that by just pushing all the way out on the Dts that the glider doesn't even nose-over or whack.

Christian Thoreson - 2004/10

Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...

It stays on its keel and base bar while I slide on my belly and harness shell. I'll take a little road rash over physical therapy any day of the week.

Sorry Jonathan. It flunks the cool test.

[Steve Davy]

Wills Wing on how to replace a downtube:

http://www.willswing.com/support/support.asp

Wills Wing on how to break a downtube:

Prior to the landing flare your body position should be generally upright, but slightly inclined forward, with your head and shoulders forward of your hips and your legs and feet trailing slightly behind. Many pilots make the mistake of trying to get too upright at this stage of the landing, which actually reduces your flare authority and makes it harder to land on your feet. Your hands should be at shoulder width and shoulder height on the uprights.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 04:29:47 UTC

I flared a bit early with my upwind wing a tad higher then my downwind and by the time I realize I was hosed, the right-hand wand twanged in pretty good. I seem to have an ongoing difficultly with keeping my wings leveled and yaw-free during ground skim.

...a tip wand.

[Steve Davy]

Nice landing, Stephan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SATR5Uxknyc
A day in December at Quest Air
MeAlisAquilae - 2013/01/05
dead

P.S. Was that not a ton more fun and easier and safer than pounding in over and over and over?

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah, but you gotta consider the people watching the videos and making their livings selling the downtubes and running the landing clinics.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27973
First flight in my new Falcon

JTQuinn - 2013/01/06 02:02:31 UTC
Albuquerque

Joined:
- 2012/12/13
Posts:
- 1

Today was my first flight in my own glider... it's the first time I went off something higher than the littlest training hill... it went well then... WHACK!!
Actually it was a pretty gentle whack and I know why I did it, so next time...

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=21695

Yeah JT, I have every confidence that from now on all of your landings will be just fine.

P.S. Tell the asshole back at launch who found it necessary to notify you that you dropped your nose to go fuck himself for me.

P.P.S. Really admire the confidence you exhibited in your hook-in status you had when you approached and executed your launch. I'm certain that you must done a really thorough hang check shortly prior.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.azhpa.org/azhpa_forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=3654
Big Spring,Big Disappointment

Jeff Johnson - 2009/08/17 19:44

I fell down and to my right trapping my right hand on the down tube as my shoulder kept moving, tearing my rotator cuff.

Yeah?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/25 05:59:51 UTC

You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.

Go figure.