Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did.

When I first posted on this one...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post3602.html#p3602

...I didn't get that Mark was the Dragonfly driver. I was thinking he was talking about being the first glider flight and Zack encountering lift in the same place. Sorry 'bout that.

He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke.

- "Weakling" is one word.
- In retrospect, Mark, how good an idea do you think it was to be towing someone at the extreme bottom end of the legal range?

The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout...

So you're saying that even with a standard aerotow weak link - which is off the bottom end of the legal range for the vast majority of gliders, and would've been for Zack if he had been flying two point - the load can be "excessive"?

So what limit is it rubbing up against?

And you're also eroding the base of support for anyone who's going to try to argue that this was a lockout - that a weak link blow or release was inevitable anyway.

...but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.

No shit, dude. I'm invariably surprised when they don't.

So you were towing somebody on some chintzy piece of shit fishing line which you EXPECTED would blow...

Donnell Hewett - 1981/10

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one."

...at the worst possible time, when the glider was climbing hard in a near stall situation. So were you expecting something good to happen next?

I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again.

- Did you check with Paul before you reaffirmed that it was a thermal? I think Quest wants to call it a dust devil to lend support to the "freak accident" blow off they're working on.

- So it was a humongous fat thermal and you had no problems once you were stabilized in it. So if you hadn't been towing Zack on a chintzy piece of shit fishing line things would've undoubtedly stabilized for Zack in another second or two as well, right?

I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

I would be more than happy to answer any questions pertaining to what I saw and experienced, but I prefer not to engage in speculation at this point.

Did you wanna address the issue that Antoine just raised, that if the weak link strength had been doubled to put the glider in the middle of the legal range instead of the ragged edge of the bottom, that if Zack had been allowed the privilege of making the decision of whether or not to remain on tow instead of having to do whatever the fishing line told him then he'd have been OK?

Or would that be too much like engaging in speculation?

Thanks,
Mark Frutiger

Oh no, thank YOU Mark. Thank you so much for handing us such a textbook example of what the half dozen or so SANE people in this idiot fucking sport have been screaming about for years or decades.

[Zack C]

And if it was the big Xtralight it would've been less than 0.81.

Tad,

According to:
http://www.delta-club-82.com/bible/45-hang-glider-xtralite.htm
The largest Xtralight has an MCOW of 206 kg or 454.15 lbs. That puts a weak link allowing 260 lbs towline at 0.57 times MCOW.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

Thanks.

That's actually exactly where I went to look for numbers but I didn't really look at their table and went straight to the linked owner's manual which only listed a 137 and 147.

Either way we win. If he's on:
- the big glider those Flight Park Mafia assholes were violating the FAA minimum
- something smaller it documents the deadliness of the bottom of the FAA assholes' legal range

By the way... Did you notice who and what's up at:

http://www.delta-club-82.com/bibliotheque/accueil-bibliotheque.htm

http://deltaplane.brozs.net/Cours/biblio/Zack.jpg


(Thanks bigtime Antoine.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

deltaman - 2013/02/09 06:23:17 UTC

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 05:38:41 UTC

The glider pitched up.
The glider stalled.
A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.
The weak link broke.

- NO !

Mark Frutiger (tug pilot) - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. (..)

So, that point of view is more realistic:

michael170 - 2013/02/09 04:55:51 UTC

A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.
*The glider pitched up.
*The weak link broke.
The glider stalled.
Struck the ground.
Zack died.
Who's next?

Paul Hurless - 2013/02/09 08:49:22 UTC

michael170 - 2013/02/09 04:55:51 UTC

A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used...

If you had been properly trained on how to tow, you would know that it shouldn't be a big deal when a weak link breaks, even just after coming off the cart, if you are doing things right.

Yeah Michael, if you had been PROPERLY trained on how to tow, you would know that it SHOULDN'T be a big deal when a STANDARD AEROTOW WEAK LINK breaks, even just after coming off the cart, if you are doing things right and aren't a total incompetent asshole - like Zack was.

As a matter of fact, if you would just go back and read Dr. Trisa Tilletti's landmark article on weak links which took up half of the 2012/06 issue of Hang Gliding magazine...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post2230.html#p2230

...you would notice that the word "stall" DOESN'T APPEAR EVEN ONCE. So OBVIOUSLY a stall just ISN'T A PROBLEM associated with standard aerotow weak link failures.

Really makes you wonder why, for the purposes of the rating requirement, they wrote that weak link failure recoveries must be simulated in tandem training...

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2012/06/20
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
12. Hang Gliding Aerotow
-A. Aerotow

05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

...at fifteen hundred feet in smooth air. They should be conducting them when you're ten feet off the cart or at 150 feet when you're being blasted by a monster thermal to show you what total nonissues they are.

(Funny the way Lockout Mountain Flight Park doesn't use weak links of any rating on their tandems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg65528o5-U

1-2602
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5549/13995699911_14ebe6da3f_o.png


Somebody should really make them aware of the potential benefits of being dumped ten feet off the runway or at 150 feet when they're being blasted by monster thermals.)

Maybe you should get some better training instead of just parroting Tad.

Yeah. Get some better training.

- Quest...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

- Wallaby...

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2013/02/09

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.

- Lockout...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

- Cowboy Up...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use 2 hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

- Florida Ridge...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release

Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC

The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.
I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.

All of these flight schools have very long track records and are really excellent at teaching you what they want you to hear and what you want to believe.

When you are under tow you should be ready for any unusual event and be ready to deal with it.

Or, as was the case a week ago this afternoon, any combination of events - like hitting a monster thermal at 150 feet and...

Donnell Hewett - 1981/10

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one."

...having your Davis Link blow up in your face at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation.

It's called being a pilot instead of just being a passenger along for the ride.

YEAH!!! And a GOOD PILOT always:
- uses whatever piece of fishing line some asshole hands to him
- believes whatever figure he's told about breaking strength
- never allows reality to influence his belief system or question the competence of his instructors

If only Zack...

Zack Marzec - 88356 - H4 - Jon Thompson - 2012/02/11 - AT FL LGO TAT 360 AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - ADV INST, TAND INST
- Exp: 2015/05/23 - ADV INST
- Exp: 2015/03/14 - TAND INST

...had gotten some adequate instruction from a competent school. It's always these fringe activities that get people killed and unfairly blacken the good names of hang gliding and the people who participate in it and work so tirelessly to improve its safety practices and standards.

Wanna see how a PROPERLY TRAINED and QUALIFIED AT pilot...

Socrates Zayas (DocSoc) - Miami - 86135 - H4 - 2011/09/09 - James Tindle - AT FL LGO PL ST TAT TPL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- BAS INST
- TAND INST

...handles a standard aerotow weak link failure?

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


Notice the way he:
- pops off BEFORE hitting the monster thermal?
- pulls out of the stall BEFORE he slams back into the runway?

(Righteous stuff there, Doc.)

Using someone else's tragedy to further your agenda is pathetic.

Yeah Tad Clone asshole! Stop trying to get people to use stronger fishing line to reduce the probability of them whipstalling into tumbles at 150 feet and start talking about how he died doing what he loved, taking flights in his memory, writing poetry, decorating your posts with lots of s, and seeing if you can break Jack's old record for the number of "o"s in "NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo!"

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Dave Hopkins - 2013/02/09 16:43:09 UTC

Here lies the double edged sword. The Aerotow weaklink is designed to break before a glider can lockout in roll.

You are one hundred percent full of pure unadulterated SHIT, Dave. It wasn't DESIGNED to do a goddam thing. It's a fucking piece of fishing line that was ASSUMED to blow at twice what it actually does in a totally incompetent ATTEMPT to comply with a bullshit "THEORY" a lunatic Hang One from Kingsville Texas pulled out of his ass nearly a third of a century ago.

This usually is a good thing.

Yeah? Cite some data, reports, accounts, videos.

Roll lockouts can happen so abruptly that a pilot can not release before the situation goes out of control.

Goddam fucking right they can. Especially when he's some douchebag like Steve Seibel with an idiot fucking Wallaby Release lever on his downtube or some douchebag like Paul Tjaden with an idiot fucking bent pin Bailey Release barrel on his shoulder.

Huge pitch ups are very rare in my experience.

FUCK your EXPERIENCE. We need to be looking at all available evidence. I cite what happened at Quest a week ago as a pertinent example.

But it is true that having a weaklink break during a pitch up close to the ground is a terrible situation.

Especially if you're enough of a "pro" not to need a two point bridle to keep the glider trimmed normally and give you and extra foot and a half of down pitch control range - like Zack was.

It puts us in a hammer head stall needing lots of altitude to recover.

Well, yeah, but if you've had good Cone of Safety tandem training from Dr. Trisa Tilletti and are always prepared to react properly like Paul Totally-Moronic Hurless I can't really see that as being a problem.

This is why we should fight pitch-ups.

If only Zack had known that before it was too late. We really must demand more tandem training before these people are cleared to solo in thermal conditions.

I think we have much greater control of the pitch axis then the roll axis.

We do. We're pitch stable on tow but roll unstable as hell.

I believe stronger weak-links would greatly increase the number of roll lockouts which would create many more serious accidents.

Yeah? Well you're totally full of shit.

- ANYBODY using a release that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Steve Seibel - 2012/08/18 16:22:36 UTC

The high G-load made it harder to for me to get my hand quickly to the release, and the glider rolled to quite a steep bank, and the loads rose much higher than I intended before I hit the handle.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Marc Fink - 2011/08/31 08:11:05 UTC

I was actually in the process of reaching for the release and just about to pull it when the weaklink blew.

...doesn't stink on ice can beat an idiot "standard aerotow weak link".

- If you're low and get freed from a severe lockout by EITHER a standard aerotow weak link or a release that doesn't stink on ice your gonna be just as fucked as Zack was after his Lauren Link very clearly provided him protection from an excessive angle of attack.

- Ask Mike Haas just how well his Rooney Link worked to save him from his lockout.

- The forces in a lockout away from the tug build up so fast...

deltaman - 2012/05/25 19:45:39 UTC

I miss opportunity to be aerotowed in my mountains but 2 months ago we spent 4 days teaching AT to 12 pilots in 2 points. All had 190kg weaklink (220kg on tug side).
One of them oscillate and start to lockout. I said by radio : (time to) release, he did it (JoeStreet release), but 1ms to late.. the weaklink was just blowed.
and no unexpected wl failure in 90 AT.
I'm confident in this way to think wl..

...that you hardly notice the difference between chintzy and proper weak link blows.

Saying this I admit that I doubled the strength of my weak-link when towing my VR.

And you didn't lock out and die immediately? Dude! That took some cojones!

The VR is heavy...

428 pounds max certified operating weight.

...and the 130 lb links were breaking at every little tug in a thermal.

No shit. You were flying at 0.76 Gs - in violation of the FAA minimum. And it's a pretty good bet that you weren't doing the 342 max hook-in weight either.

So have you yet considered the implications that would've had if you'd been in a Zack Marzec situation?

Plus the rigid has lots more roll stability and control then a flex wing.

Oh! So THAT'S why you didn't lock out and die immediately when you doubled the Greenspot and got all the way up to 0.93 Gs!

I fear a low level break going out of the field more then the possibility of a lockout.

I'm scared shitless of both. So I fly:

- a two point bridle...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318603266/


- a one and a half G weak link...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313607716/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313614876/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313617012/

- and a finger on the trigger actuator...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/

If you believe aerotowing or any other type towing is basicly safe you are deluding yourself.

Nah, that's mostly the job of USHGA, the Flight Park Mafia, and total douchebags like Paul Hurless who think that, whatever situation comes at him, the pilot will be able to deal with it - no matter how crappy his equipment - as long as he's trained properly (by someone like Zack).

You are flying a hang glider under power!

We're flying a hang glider under someone else's power.

- It's transmitted through a string.

- If it becomes to misaligned it will overwhelm your control in a heartbeat.

- The person on the other end can kill you by:
-- applying too:
--- much power
--- little power
-- abruptly:
--- altering the power
--- depriving you of the power

- You can kill yourself by not insuring that you have a means of instantly dumping the power without compromising or sacrificing control if it becomes misaligned.

- You can kill yourself by not insuring that you'll have reliable power when you'll need it - as was the case a week ago.

It is always our life on the line.

But we've got totally incompetent assholes dictating to us...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

...that we can't fly with anything they don't sell and...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC

And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.

...forcing us all to fly on dangerously and illegally Rooney Links like the piece of shit that just killed Zack.

All towing types are very dynamic and require great attention to detail to do it consistently and greater understanding of what you need to do to save your a## when the SH$$ hits the fan.

Do you USE what you need to save your ass when the shit hits the fan or do you just use whatever some piece of shit like Bo, Davis, Matt, or Trisa tells you to?

We need to be ready to fight the good fight.

Yeah. I am. And you're very obviously not.

Most of the time we win and get to fly.

Most of you are clueless dice rollers.

I don't tow as my main method of launching so I'm am not complacent about towing...

Yes you are. If you weren't you'd be doing what people like Zack C, Antoine, Joe Street, and Mike Lake are.

...but I do do it for months at a time and I am happy to get back to the Mountains.

I would be too if I didn't know what I was talking about.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

tiger12, by the way, is Mark Frutiger - the Dragonfly driver whose incompetence and negligence in towing Zack one point into and through a monster thermal on a Quest Link at or below the legal limit were big factors in the fatal crash.

And bear in mind that if he had dumped him the moment he realized he (the tug) had just flown into something nasty Zack would've been able to get back on the cart and continue rolling dice.

I'm declaring him an enemy combatant.

[Zack C]

That's kinda harsh. I have a hard time finding incompetence or negligence on Mark's part. If Zack was on the small Xtralite, he was still legal. In any event, it's not the tug pilot's job to ensure glider pilots have appropriate weak links. As for Zack towing one point, do you think every tug pilot should refuse to tow glider pilots towing one point? Is it not the glider pilot's decision whether the advantages are worth the increased risk? I don't think you can fault Mark for flying into an invisible monster thermal. Yeah, maybe Zack would have survived if Mark dumped him, but Zack also could have released as soon as he saw Mark shoot up. I have a hard time believing you'd fault Mark for not releasing him after saying things like

If it's an emergency for the glider it's your [the tug pilot's] job to stay in front of him [the glider] while he deals with it as best he can. If getting off tow were in his best interest he'd have done that already.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

That's kinda harsh.

Yeah, but I'm kinda fed up with this cult that's taken control over a huge chunk of hang gliding and DESTROYED IT.

And we have THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Paul Walsh - 2013/02/09 11:50:37 UTC
UK

There really are a couple of total assholes here on this site.........you know who you are.....
One thing I do have to admit though.........your both very consistent ASSHOLES.
Makes one wonder if you are like this with people to their faces......probably not....and if you are....how many friends/bruises do you really have/get?????
Zach was a very dearly loved young man. He opened many eyes to the utter joy and delight of our sport.
Stop being dickheads and go kick your dog, you know for that feeling of superiority you so desire. You crap does not wash here.
As stated several times....go get some training and experience and then come back.

Mark Frutiger (tiger12) - 2013/02/09 12:32:57 UTC
Rochester

one strand is 130 lb, two strands, (one loop), is more. And I don't think it was Greenspot.
Oakdude, thanks.
Please start another thread if you want to argue about this. This thread is for Zack.

And I'm pretty sure that Mark is the guy who fucked over Scott Wise not long ago - did to him a lot of what Ridgely and CHGA did to me. And Scott was one of the good guys.

If Zack was on the small Xtralite, he was still legal.

Legal isn't good enough.

http://www.aviationbanter.com/archive/index.php/t-40965.html
Are Weak Links really Necessary for Aero Tow?

Bill Daniels - 2006/09/18 14:30

I would like to add, however, that at least my reading of accident reports suggest that a fatal glider accident is more likely when the towline fails prematurely. For that reason, I like to stay near the stronger end of the FAR 80% - 200% range.

Actually, reading the Pilot's Operating Handbook for several German gliders, I note the weak link for aerotow is specified as an exact figure. For example, the weak link for both aero tow and winch for my Nimbus 2C is specified as 600 KG (1323 Lbs) or a blue Tost weak link. The tolerance is + or -10%. The US Airworthiness Certificate specifies that the Nimbus 2C is to be flown as specified in the POH. Considering the possible flying weights, this ranges between 95% - 160% which is a narrower range than specified in the FAR's.

Makes me wonder if we should be using Tost weak links instead of old bits of rope.

The bottom of that range is DANGEROUS for sailplanes and WAY DANGEROUS for hang gliders - as has just been pretty graphically demonstrated.

And everybody and his dog knows that even while The Sacred Loop blows pretty consistently around 130 in bench tests they blow left and right with average gliders straight, level, and smooth ALL THE TIME. And anybody with half a brain or better knows what WILL HAPPEN in some fraction of a Zack Marzec situation. And HE KNEW that weak link wasn't gonna hold up to that situation and HE KNEW that a major stall was gonna result.

In any event, it's not the tug pilot's job to ensure glider pilots have appropriate weak links.

Yeah?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

Since when? Has anybody informed these assholes yet?

As for Zack towing one point, do you think every tug pilot should refuse to tow glider pilots towing one point?

Yeah, I think I do.

- Before Matt and Trisa got the USHGA/FAA AT regulations dumbed down we were required to fly gliders which met or exceeded HGMA airworthiness standards. A one point glider (or a glider being flown with one hand) no way in hell meets HGMA airworthiness standards. Zack just proved that by whipstalling and tumbling from 150 feet - no mean feat.

- The main reason people are flying one point is because they won't tolerate ugly, draggy, chintzy, dangerous, slap-on, Industry Standard, two point crap. If you outlawed one point Wills Wing would start building my release system into their gliders tomorrow.

- This is kinda like hang checks. If you banned them within a hundred yards of launch you'd see a lot more hook-in checks and a lot fewer unhooked launches.

I don't think you can fault Mark for flying into an invisible monster thermal.

If Zack had been flying two point with a midrange weak link and a no reach release - no. And if I'd been the glider I'd have stayed on.

But as it was he KNEW that glider was already compromised in THREE WAYS (not counting the Weghorst Release) - two of which combined to kill it.

I have a hard time believing you'd fault Mark for not releasing him after saying...

That assumes a safe airworthy glider and a competent pilot on the back end. He had neither.

P.S. Quote me Mark ever contributing anything useful to a discussion after any of our regularly scheduled aerotowing disasters.

And that crap that Trisa published last summer was about the biggest disaster this sport has ever seen. And anybody who just said and did NOTHING about it doesn't get a lot of sympathy from me - especially a goddam waste of space Dragonfly driver.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/10 00:29:35 UTC

The 1 G I was using was 75+180 = 255 pounds. So it looks to me like the Cortland 130 lb is = 1 G in the Protow bridle setup. Like I said I have a 200 lbs line loop for a weaklink. A single loop of this is (or was) used for tandems at Wallaby Ranch.

So Zack, what strength of weaklink do you think Zach should have used so that it wouldn't have broken?

Was the glider getting stressed as it blasted up, Davis?

Not that it has anything to do with the weak link issue but... Was the fucking Dragonfly getting its tail pulled up and control compromised? Was Mark the least bit concerned about his safety?

Discounting the breakaway tow mast that idiot fucking Bobby Bailey designed in because he didn't entirely trust his fishing line to blow... If we had a system that held to six hundred pounds then what problems would you predict developing in the couple more seconds it would've taken Zack Pro-Tow Marzec to stabilize?

Asshole.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/09 23:49:42 UTC

I am very hard pressed to come up with a scenario where I would want my weaklink not to break when it's loaded up.

I'm absolutely one hundred percent positive you are. Even just a week after somebody's just been blasted up, popped off, and dumped into a fatal whipstall. It's almost impossible to imagine anything penetrating that dense skull enough to get through that little pistachio sized lump you're trying to use for a brain.

Conversely, I can think of several times on tow where I was glad it did. Usually I was just about to release cause things were going from bad to worse and POP, I was flying myself and things worked out.

Lucky you. Maybe you'll just keep on getting lucky and will never have any need of equipment which allows you to make and execute your OWN decisions when you want to.

I get pretty torqued up at the "strong weak link"...

A "strong weak link", of course, being anything heavier than a precision standard aerotow weak link.

...advocates who come out of the woodwork when something like this happens...

The advocates were out of the wordwork SCORES of times BEFORE this happened - in hopeless efforts to prevent it. But the kinds of dregs who control the sway of hang gliding who are quite happy letting little pieces of fishing line make their go / no go decisions for them are also more than happy to...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

Zack figured it out.

Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

...let the douchebags like Russell, Paul, Lauren, Mitch, and Rooney who run the flight parks...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

...do their thinking for them.

And I'll give ya a little tip, asshole... If you ARE going to let someone else do your thinking for you, it's a really really REALLY BAD IDEA to let that person be someone who says:

We know what we're doing.

...and use it to say "see, this proves my/our point".

If it actually DID prove my / our / Sir Isaac's point, what would you have us say?

This, in spite of not being there and only having second hand information to make this point.

You're right.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flyhg/message/17223
Pilot's Hotline winter flying

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/03 13:41

Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.

Zach hit it and went high and to the right. The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.

Dude goes up behind a Dragonfly in nice regular thermal conditions, whipstalls from 150 feet, tumbles, and dies. We weren't there, nothing to be learned, shit happens, how's the forecast shaping up for next weekend?

If you believe that fine, knock yourself out, but don't use BS like "this wouldn't have happened if only you had listened to me".

You're right, you're doing fine, don't listen to us. And I REALLY SINCERELY mean that, Kinsley. *DON'T* *LISTEN* *TO* *US*.

I have the greatest respect of Paul and Mark...

I'm SURE you do.

...and their willingness to share what they know.

Yeah, and it's not like THEY were out there annoying wonderful people such as yourself with their obnoxious "strong weak link" advocacy. Much better to share their remarkable depths of knowledge AFTER somebody's been splattered all over the runway.

I have zero respect for those who are using a tragedy to advocate a particular position...

ME TOO!!! I DESPISE those people with their twisted agendas always hijacking discussions about the best kind of parachute to use after the Rooney Link pops.

...particularly when there is no proven link between their point and this accident.

Yeah. Just like there's no PROVEN link between fossil fuel burning and all these five hundred year meteorological events we're now seeing once every three weeks or so.

And until something has been PROVEN to YOUR satisfaction other people have absolutely no business discussing it on forums that you read.

And remember... When you have a PROVEN LINK...

Usually I was just about to release cause things were going from bad to worse and POP, I was flying myself and things worked out.

...stick with it like GLUE - regardless of what the numbers tell you and what's happening around you.