Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

William Olive - 2013/02/11 20:42:14 UTC

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

Just when you think Tad's left the building...

Hey there, Billo.

I'm hoping that there's just so long Newtonian physics and common sense can be suppressed - even in hang gliding.

And...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Give 'em the rope? When?

William Olive - 2005/02/11 08:59:57 UTC

I give 'em the rope if they drop a tip (seriously drop a tip), or take off stalled. You will NEVER be thanked for it, for often they will bend some tube.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14221
Tad's release

William Olive - 2008/12/24 23:46:36 UTC

I've seen a few given the rope by alert tug pilots, early on when things were going wrong, but way before it got really ugly. Invariably the HG pilot thinks "What the hell, I would have got that back. Now I've got a bent upright."

The next one to come up to the tuggie and say "Thanks for saving my life." will be the first.

...keep on making those good decisions in the interest of the safety of the guys you're towing. I have every confidence that eventually one of them will limp over to your Dragonfly and give you a big hug.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Miguel - 2013/02/11 22:25:23 UTC

Why not refute Deltaman's points. Tune him up, so to speak.

Because he can't - they're irrefutable.

All he's ever had going for him is...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

...we know what we're doing 'cause we've done lots of it and you can either take our word for it or go fuck yourselves 'cause we control the airports and the tugs you bought us.

This is a bit like a Ponzi scheme. They brainwash total morons like Marc Fink, Kinsley Sykes, Craig Hassan, and Paul Hurless. And these morons go out and help brainwash other morons. And eventually even people like Zack C...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11400
Question

Zack C - 2010/11/07 05:40:14 UTC

So even the people you want me to listen to you don't agree with 100%. Is there /anyone/ that agrees with you completely? Do you realize how difficult what you're asking me to do is? You're asking me, a not particularly experienced H3, to discard most of what I've been taught about weak links and the convention that has been accepted at pretty much all aerotow flight parks and competitions and trade it for a practice that very few are endorsing.

It's very hard for me to believe that the convention is the convention only because everyone following it is an idiot. I'm going to try to get the other side of the story from those who advocate the 130 lb loops. Everyone here seems to use them only because they've been told to (myself included).

...get sucked in.

But Ponzi schemes are inherently unstable and this one just started blowing apart at the seams.

Grade school name calling makes you look like a grade schooler.

That asshole could spend the rest of his rotten existence trying to make it up to grade schooler level without making a dent. Grade schoolers don't watch their kites pop off and crash six times in a row before they get a string up to the job. That's the whole foundation of this forum.

P.S. Jim has just lost a good friend and is in a lot of emotional pain right now and his credibility and reputation are going down the toilet fast. Don't kick him when he's down. That's a privilege I deserve a hundred times more than anyone else on the planet - with the possible exception of...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1238
NZ accident who was the pilot?

Lauren Tjaden - 2006/02/21

I thought I should post this since the phone keeps ringing with friends worried about Jim and wanting information. Here is what I know. Yes, the Jim in the article is OUR Jim, Jim Rooney. It was a tandem hang gliding accident, and it involved a power line. I have no more information about the accident itself. The passenger apparently was burned and is hospitalized, but is not seriously injured. Jim sustained a brain injury.

...his 2006/02/21 tandem passenger.

[Tad Eareckson]

Since Davis made his initial move:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Davis Straub - 2013/02/11 04:08:10 UTC

The biggest safety issue at the 2013 Worlds was pilots coming off their carts stalled.

to sabotage the Jack Show thread on the Zack Marzec fatality/suicide there have been about nineteen totally irrelevant posts on boring, useless, coming-off-the-cart bullshit.

Somebody needs to get in there, call those assholes on it, and get the thread back on the rails. Somebody needs to get in there, pour gasoline all over something and/or someone (preferably Davis), and light it.

We've just had an unhooked launch fatality and - as usual - the postmortem has moved on to focus on helmet buckles and what Joe Greblo's Five Cs stand for.

This asshole died solely because of TWO issues - the:
- failure of the standard aerotow weak link to very clearly provide protection from excessive angles of attack
- pitch authority price exacted by the pro toads for the luxury of only needing to spend twenty bucks on an aerotow release system

in that order.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kai-Martin Knaak - 2013/02/11 18:49:08 UTC

German UL-Tow gear

In Germany, UL-Tow gear is required be equipped with a weak link on the pilot side that breaks between 80 daN and 100 daN. According to my non-SI unit converter, this is equivalent to 180 lb to 225 lb in imperial units.

Which would be illegally light in the US for a huge percentage of the gliders flown. Unbelievable how stupid their hang gliding people have managed to get by following USHGA's lead - given Otto Lilienthal and what they accomplished in the World Wars.

This seems to be quite a bit above the strength used in the accident.

No, it's even more insanely pathetic than you think 'cause our fishing line is only seeing half the load.

Davis Straub - 2013/02/11 19:19:43 UTC

Kai, the force is approximately split in half with a bridle and a weaklink on one side.

Yes Davis. Make damn sure you don't put fishing line on BOTH sides or you double the required load and your standard aerotow weak link won't break when you want it to.

And don't worry about a bridle wrap following a weak link blow because in that scenario the weak link is no longer needed as the focal point of a safe towing system.

Kai-Martin Knaak - 2013/02/12 00:54:02 UTC

Thank you for the clarification.

DHV homologated tow set-ups put the weak link directly in the tow line. So the German links break at up to 30% smaller forces than what was used in the accident.

And thus are about thirty percent more likely to kill you in a Zack Marzec sorta situation.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Dennis Wood - 2013/02/11 22:21:28 UTC
Suffolk, Virginia

I've probably missed where someone explained this, and if so, just to reiterate and possibly simplify, angle of attack is relative to the direction of travel.

Angle of attack refers to the direction of the airflow in relation to the wing. One hopes that it's coming from forward and below. Unfortunately for Zack it started coming from behind and below for a bit when his Currituck Link blew to clearly protect against a high angle of attack.

in normal flight, our wings be traveling downward at a few degrees below level or so. under AT, we start out traveling horizontally and then change to more of a climbing path.

Which, as we all know from the teaching of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...is a bad thing - a barely tolerable risk best interrupted whenever we start climbing a bit too fast for the liking of The Sacred Greenspot.

when we become unhooked from the towline as in a broken weak link...

Or a tug driver...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Give 'em the rope? When?

William Olive - 2005/02/11 08:59:57 UTC

I give 'em the rope if they drop a tip (seriously drop a tip), or take off stalled. You will NEVER be thanked for it, for often they will bend some tube.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...making a good decision in the interest of our safety.

...our path changes back to the downward normal line, but our wings are still tilted like the climbing line, which is what makes us to be instantly in a very deep stall.

No shit?

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

You mean a Currituck Link blow could actually be a BAD thing?

the trick is to immediately recognize this and to lower our AofA before we lose our forward momentum and get back to a proper "speed".

So you and Zack worked together at Currituck. So how come you learned that trick and Zack didn't? Sounds extraordinarily easy to me.

I so do hope you're currently tracking down Zack's students to make sure they know how to perform that trick properly.

But maybe that's not really necessary. I've heard that if you just know enough to stay inside The Cone of Safety there's nothing bad that can happen to you.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Zack C - 2013/02/12 01:57:36 UTC

the trick is to immediately recognize this and to lower our AofA before we lose our forward momentum and get back to a proper "speed".

There are situations when a stall is unavoidable following a tow termination no matter what the pilot does. If this happens near the ground the results could be catastrophic.

No Zack, this simply ISN'T TRUE. Unique amongst all flavors of aviation there is ABSOLUTELY NO MICROMETEOROLOGICAL EVENT that Mother Nature can throw at a towed hang glider - equipped with a one or two point Industry Standard release system, a standard aerotow weak link, and a hook knife - can't EASILY fly out of. You HAVE read the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden haven't you?

Here's part of a fatal accident report by Doug Hildreth from twenty two years ago (the pilot was Eric Aasletten):

Immediately after launch, the glider pitched up sharply with nose very high. Apparently the angle caused an "auto release" of the tow line from the pilot, who completed a hammerhead stall and dove into the ground. Observer felt that a dust devil, invisible on the runway, contributed to or caused the relatively radical nose-up attitude. Also of concern was the presumed auto release which, if it had not occurred, might have prevented the accident.

His report was based on a report from Dave Broyles, who said:

I talked to a lot of pilots at Hobbs, and the consensus was that in the course of Eric Aasletten's accident, had a weak link break occurred instead of the manual or auto release that apparently did occur, the outcome would have been the same. Under the circumstances the one thing that would have given Eric a fighting chance to survive was to have remained on the towline.

Jeez, Zack. That was OVER TWO DECADES ago! Ancient history. Just how relevant do you think that situation could be in today's world of aerotowing - considering that Quest has spent nearly every waking moment since then perfecting aerotow equipment and techniques while Kitty Hawk has been teaching everybody the trick of not stalling when the focal point of our safe towing system kicks in?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Steve Baran - 2013/02/12 03:18:24 UTC
Chattaroy

This tragic accident shouldn't happen again.

- It's happened plenty of times before and nobody did shit after any of those. What makes you think this time will be any different?

- Where the hell did fuckin' Paul and Lauren disappear to as soon as this discussion started going? Oh, right. They don't discuss these things with the rabble. After all, what the hell could any of US possibly know?

- I'm really hoping we get another dozen of these in the coming season 'cause we still seem to be having a bit of trouble getting some points across and the opposition is gonna try to paint this as a "freak accident" and derail the discussion.

I know very little about towing, having only seen it done by boat at a competition in Australia back in the late 70s and on videos linked to from this website (that I seldom watch). However, there are two characteristics of Zach's accident that I feel apply to all pilots whether towing or not:

1) What to do if your glider whip stalls and/or tumbles at a low AGL.

No brainer. Zack gave us the answer to that one two Saturdays ago - as if the answer wasn't obvious enough.

2) Knowing your wind conditions on launch.

Yep, if only they had known the wind conditions on launch...

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/03

Weather conditions were very benign with light winds and blue skies...

They coulda shut down for the day and avoided this tragedy altogether.

The problem, Steve, is that this crash didn't have a goddam thing to do with LAUNCH. It was an incident that occurred well down the runway well into the tow.

#1 The time involved from whip stall to ground contact may have occurred in the 15 - 5 second range. I have a feeling the episode wasn't high enough for the glider to have been in the air for more than 15 seconds after weak link failure and may even have been in the air for only 5-10 seconds.

Hey Steve...

Drop a rock out of a window fifteen stories up and time it.

I'm interested in the time frame to compare it to the time it takes an emergency parachute to open.

What a fuckin' moronic waste of your extremely limited processing power.

I've seen an emergency chute fall out of a harness and fully open in around 4 seconds (not counting the time it takes the glider to rotate downward after the chute opens).

That glider was FLYING.

If I use this time as an example (fully knowing that the time to full inflation of a chute varies widely even if it were able to obtain full deployment) it is my feeling that if a pilot experienced a similar situation as Zach's accident that tossing a chute might at least slow down the impact speed - if the pilot had more than 5 seconds of air time left. More realistically, due to any radical glider behavior, I would think that 10 seconds might be closer to the minimum amount of time one might expect to get a chute out and deploy enough for speed to begin to be reduced. I personally feel that I'd throw my chute regardless of the time I had if I were within 300 feet of the ground. And, that that's a bold statement for me to say (in all probability due to the fact that I'm firmly planted in an armchair at the moment). When poo hits the fan I hope that I'd at least remember that I had a chute!

At a hundred and fifty feet he blew his Rooney Link, whipstalled, tail slid, and tumbled twice. The INSTANT the focal point of his safe towing system kicked in HE WAS FUCKED.

#2 "Dust devils", whirlwinds, etc. can be avoided if one can 'see' them. I flag the areas I slope launch from extensively unless there are plenty of natural wind indicators in the vicinity of launch - and then I usually flag the heck out of the area anyway.

It wasn't a "dust devil", there wasn't any significant turbulence, it was a big powerful fat smooth thermal - and it was a total fucking nonissue for one of the two planes that entered it.

One plane had a reliable power source and the other had a power source whose reliability was dependent upon a little piece of fishing line stressed to a good chunk of its capacity at the best of times.

Guess which plane died.

I don't know how many wind indicators towing sites use on flat ground. I'm guessing the number is minimal and spacing is wide due to launching and landing activities where they may get in the way. Even if flexible stakes could be put out with streamers tied to them I don't know how well they could all be seen from level ground???

Who gives a rat's ass? That issue was totally irrelevant with repect to this issue.

However, knowing if a dusty is present should not be guess work.

THERE WAS NO DUSTY.

I feel that some serious brainstorming is needed for this aspect of launching from level ground - better methods of identifying what micro-conditions you might encounter on a towing launch before you launch.

OK, lemme start brainstorming and I'll get back to you when I've got something tow the fucking glider two point and use a thicker piece of fishing line.

Alright, now let's have a discussion about the best procedures to follow after you've launched unhooked.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28320
Cliff launchers, do some aerotow!

Robert Moore - 2013/02/12 01:05:29 UTC

I have the option of aerotowing, but choose not to. Here in the Bay Area there are so many good mountain sites, plus many more within a few hours drive, I don't feel much compunction to tow.

The biggest issue for me is this:

As much as I trust the skills of my friend/tow pilot...

Big mistake. Damn near all these tug jockeys are highly skilled flyers - but all of them have good dump levers, damn near all of them have inclinations to use them to "fix whatever's going on back there", and virtually none of them have a clue as to the purpose and actual rating of a weak link and make any effort to pull a safe legal configuration.

...I recognize that there are many more components to tow launching that are out of my control.

The vast majority of which are out of your control by design - or total lack thereof.

Towing is so much more complex than footlaunching...

- You can do foot launch towing and have the best of both worlds.

- Until you start factoring in foot launching elements like ramps, crew, rocks, trees, balancing, running, rotors, transitioning from the downtubes to the basetube, the intolerable burden of the hook-in check...

...more mechanical parts to fail...

- More mechanical parts to assist you in not failing...
- Name a mechanical part that can fail that can't be designed and maintained with as good or better reliability than a sidewire.

...more horizontal space to cover before the pilot is relatively safe...

- Assuming you don't get turned around back into the slope.
- Wind direction and shifts virtual nonissues, ability to abort a flight - on wheels - without having to fly down to the valley.

...more coordination between pilot and tow operators.

Yeah, so?

I just don't need the added complexity.

OK, compensate by leaving your sprogs, leading edge inserts, undersurface battens, wheels, helmet, and parachute at home.

Even with all of obscenely shoddy equipment and incompetent corrupt operators infesting aerotowing it's fuckin' moronic to suggest that a typical aerotow launch is a tiny fraction as dangerous as a typical mountain launch.

If I'm ever dragged (kicking and screaming, BTW) out of NorCal, I may reconsider - if there are no good mountain sites where I've been relocated.

And if it were done with the same competence and equipment standards that it is with sailplaning...

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/12 03:38:35 UTC

If Kai-Martin is correct, even their top end would be illegally light in the US.

And the bottom of our legal range is dangerous as hell.

Davis Straub - 2013/02/12 06:17:17 UTC

I've aerotowed in Germany, but foot launched in the middle of a corn field and they really didn't want to launch into the wind, which I found a bit peculiar.

That's OK, Davis. I find designing a release designed around a bent pin and using long thin Vectran to eliminate the possibility of bridle wrap to be a bit peculiar.

They don't do nearly the amount of aerotowing that we do here in the United States.

No shit, Davis.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

They probably can't get any gliders off the ground. And...

Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

...they don't have the legal option for doubling their weak links.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

From section 3.4 of the 1999 Hang Gliding Federation of Australia Towing Manual:

Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g. - i.e. the combined weight of pilot, harness and glider (dependent on pilot weight - usually approximately 90 to 100 kg for solo operations; or approximately 175 kg for tandem operations).

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

Thanks bigtime, dude, for establishing the precedents which have made the world a better safer place for hang gliding. And tell Bobby he can go fuck himself too.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

johhnn - 2013/02/12 13:33:05 UTC
Maine

Joined: 2012/03/29
Posts: 1

Quest accident report...question.

I'm a newbie pilot or wannabee at this point...

Stick with The Jack Show cult for your discussions and you're ALWAYS gonna be a wannabee pilot.

...with only 69 "flights" at the training hill all below the 150 foot level.

They're FLIGHTS. You don't need the quotation marks. You're taking off and landing and you don't need anything approaching 150 feet to get seriously hurt or killed. You don't even need double digit to start and complete the process if you do it just right.

I have been reading through the posts on the Quest accident and other topics, trying to learn everything I can from them.

Don't try to learn everything you can from them. Try to just learn from the stuff that makes actual sense.

Can anyone comment on whether or not a tail plane (not a fin) would have helped prevent the tumbling of the glider that occurred after the weak link broke?

Who gives a flying fuck? The dude had a SEVERE STALL as a consequence of the failure of a marginal or illegally light piece of shit weak link blow. Maybe a tail would've prevented a tumble but he could've been killed just as dead if the ground had come up during the stall recovery.

We need to make sure that we can keep gliders on tow when we want or need them to stay on tow and we've gotta stop letting idiot fucking pieces of fishing line make our decisions for us.

All you're doing with this tail plane bullshit is aiding and abetting the motherfuckers like Mister Pro Toad in their efforts to derail the discussion and keep us from fixing the real problems that smashed this asshole back into the runway two Saturdays ago.

In the absence of shit tow operations like Quest low altitude tumbles are nonexistent. The only place they're a problem - and a rare one at that - are at high altitude in violent thermal conditions, usually over a desert.

I know some manufacturers (e.g. Aeros) use a tail plane and say that it improves pitch stability in flight. Perhaps many do not use it because of the added drag it causes.

And expense, weight, transportation, setup and breakdown issues.

Any comments or thoughts on this?

Yeah. We don't need tails. We have WAY bigger problems - particularly at the moment - and WAY easier fixes. In the case of this particular clusterfuck all we needed was a few centimeters worth of a piece of thicker fishing line. Drop the issue or at least take it the hell out of this thread and don't bring it back up until we've accomplished something useful.