Congratulations Davis. You've succeeded in taking a thread about an asshole who died because he couldn't keep his nose down and stay on tow and making it all about an asshole who did a faceplant because he couldn't keep nose up and get off tow.Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 04:34:35 UTC
As you can see the keel connection on the red glider was far ahead of the carabineer.
Let's not forget the hang check, Aussie Methodism, the standup landing, the backup loop, and the hook knife.Zack C - 2013/02/13 15:02:38 UTCInteresting choice of words. Hang gliding's longstanding faith in the universal application of the 130 lb Greenspot loop is the closest thing I've seen to a religion in this sport.Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC
...unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846Can you explain, then, exactly how we arrived at the current 130 lb weak link standard? It's been in use since the earliest aerotowing records I can find.AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows.
But now, Jimmy, THIS:Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.
Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.
Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
...is what Davis is saying. And that's not what Zack was using when he died doing what he loved. Can you clarify that situation?Davis Straub - 2012/08/13 18:08:42 UTC
Used to do 130 lbs. Now do 200 lbs.
Compared to aerotowing's safety record, yes. It averages out pretty much the same. And, of course...Aerotowing's safety record is good.
...if there were any better shit out there, we'd be using it everywhere.Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC
The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere.
It's sliding backwards. The more these frauds are revealed to be the incompetent lying pieces of shit that they are and and the more people who are crashed and killed as consequences of their lies and incompetence the more entrenched they become in their positions.But as long as we have the attitude that it's 'good enough', it will never improve.
It could be if you assholes would stay the fuck out of it and allow it to evolve out of the sewer you've got it locked down in.Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC
IMHO aerotowing is relatively safe compared with foot launching.
Yeah? Put a shotgun muzzle in your mouth and pull the trigger. I'll pay for the cartridge and cleanup crew.I would certainly like to make it safer.
Who the fuck is "WE", Davis?What we would all like to know is what could we do to make it safer.
- A brain damaged cult leader and all the Sam Kellner caliber scum he permits to participate in and view his forum because they're either with him or won't stand up to him in favor of rationality, fairness, and decency?Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC
Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.
- Who the fuck is "WE", Davis?We have no agreement that a stronger weaklink would make it safer...
or Zack Marzec?Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
...chime in?Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
...from the Houston crowd?Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.
...whose regulations (are SUPPOSED TO) cover what we're doing?FAR 91.309(a)(3)
The towline used has a breaking strength not less than 80 percent of the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle and not more than twice this operating weight. However, the towline used may have a breaking strength more than twice the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle if--
(i) A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle with a breaking strength not less than 80 percent of the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle and not greater than twice this operating weight.
(ii) A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the towing aircraft with a breaking strength greater, but not more than 25 percent greater, than that of the safety link of the towed glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle end of the towline and not greater than twice the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle.
SLIGHTLY? You said 200 pounds. A 54 percent increase is *NOT* SLIGHTLY. It would've probably been enough to keep that asshole alive and happy two Saturdays ago....(again, I fly with a slightly stronger weaklink).
Great. You never had any problem making 130 pound Greenspot mandatory so make wheels or skids mandatory.Wheels (they helped me last Spring at the Florida Ridge).
Well YEAH - for PROS like Zack who don't need any help keeping the nose down. But are you sure we want the new solo pilots to be kept that safe?Protow only
We've had properly designed carts for towing since the early Eighties. How 'bout using this space to talk about properly fitting shoes?Properly designed carts
I'm not sure we really want people using proper weight shift control on launch. I'll get back to you on that.Pulling in until your chest is over the base tube
Why? So we can keep on using weak links that aren't capable of handling cart acceleration?Initially pushing the cart to overcome static friction
No, let's go back to continuous hold-downs so we can keep getting amusing videos...Rubber hose handles on the carts
Yeah, that's a biggie. But I don't know whether or not the proposal will withstand the controversy.Cradles made of wood for greater friction Vs. plastic
Sorry. I just can't back you on that one. I prefer getting stuck on the cart and extremely rough liftoffs.Properly cut notches on the cradles
Fuck that. One size fits all weak links, one size fits all keel settings.Low rear cradle for smaller gliders (Julia's accident)
No. Let's stick with tradition and keep on playing dust devil roulette. (Haven't heard from Mike Nooy for a while. Anybody know how he's doing?Lots of wind streamers in the launch paddock
No.Smooth tow paddocks
I much prefer the way they do things at Florida Ridge.Socrates Zayas (DocSoc) - 2008/01/14 05:22:38 UTC
Fort Lauderdale
This would be the final flight of the day, just in front of her was a student tandem flight about to launch, so I was headed back to the car to finalize the packing up when I heard the tug make the familiar sound it does when a weak link breaks.
I looked back to see the tug circle around and saw a wing turned up in a WHACK configuration. I was like "wow". Then I noticed it wasn't the tandem but Sherb-Air's Falcon 170.
When I got there her nose was lacerated and her lip was bleeding (yeah, she had a full face helmet) and the dolly's left wheel was missing.
The radiography showed acute multiple fractures around the top and head of the humerus. Her nose didn't break but she may have hairline fractures to the septum. She had a hard time remembering the date, day, names of her kids, number of kids, and other basic things...
The dolly had hit a huge hole and she went left shoulder into the ground at 25+ mph.
And then everybody can switch over to the shitrigged bent pin garbage Davis sells. So, anyway, when is The Flight Park Mafia gonna start getting - or allowing - these things into circulation?Mouth releases for the first three seconds of the tow
Yeah Marc, since YOU couldn't win a game of tic-tac-toe against a spinach salad nobody else is capable of understanding "numbers" either.Marc Fink - 2013/02/13 16:20:07 UTC
In reality--the argument isn't really the weaklink and how many lbs. test it is--that's just a lot of people spinning the wheel around.
...for a glider of a "normal" max certified operating weight...The real argument here is whether or not a weaklink that fails at all during a dramatic departure from "normal" loading under a "normal" tow...
Hey, here's a THOUGHT, Marc......is a safety issue or not. Generally the argument boils down to whether or not the pilot would be better off staying on tow during an incipient lock-out or other situation where the glider is significantly "out-of-line" with the tug, the reasoning being that a failure at that moment makes the glider vulnerable to catastrophic stalls etc.
I'll bet you have, asshole. I even recall a certain foot launch you attempted to execute at High Point on 1998/04/28 when you violated USHGA's regulation on hook-in checks once too many times.I've been aerotowing since 1996, and have had more than my share of tows gone bad...
Tell me about some for-real genuine lockouts that DON'T result in glider stalls....including a couple of for-real genuine lock-outs that resulted in a glider stall.
Maybe you should try using a release you can actually make function when you need it to. Have you consulted Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney on how to acquire something along those lines?In every case I never felt that I wished the weaklink had instead not failed when it did.
None of that shit works. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality. Never mind.Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC
I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
There IS a requirement for stronger weak links that started covering hang gliders in 2004/09. They gotta be eighty percent of max certified operating weight. I don't know what you're flying so I don't know whether or not the precious fishing line you're using to pilot your glider allows you to scrape that bottom limit or not but I'm really hoping you keep using it and keep pro towing - for obvious reasons.If a requirement for stronger weaklinks were promulgated for all solo aerotowing--I'd immediately stop aerotowing.
Really a shame that Zack didn't make it all the way up to the 250 foot level which is what 130 pound Greenspot requires for a pullout, isn't it?Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC
I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.
Yeah. Let's have a poll on The Davis Show...Freedomspyder - 2013/02/13 17:20:08 UTC
Poll?
Davis,
Can you do polls on this forum? Even though it would not be scientific, it could be useful to see where people stand around the contentious issues such as weaklink strengths & releases.
Straight or bent pin releases?Merlin - 2012/05/26 14:22:30 UTC
I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.
I've seen many times the destructive consequences of "control freaks".
Really hard to predict how that one would turn out.Freedomspyder - 2009/02/14 17:43:30 UTC
I've found your posts on both hook-in checks and releases very interesting and well thought out.
Best of luck dealing with the Oz Report forum cult and its leader.
So? This isn't about towing experience. This is about logic and the ability to do grade school arithmetic.As full disclaimer, I have very little towing experience myself.
Maybe we can get Rich to weigh in on this one. Here's a photo of him with one of my one point release / bridle assemblies and a 1.4 G Bridle Link.I flew with Rich Cizauskas at Quest from Tandems through to a handful of solo tows all with wheels, never off of a dolly.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 17:24:00 UTC
Sure. How would you word the poll?
Do you want to:Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTCWell actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.Zack figured it out.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13689Jim Gaar - 2013/02/13 17:57:05 UTC
Former Flight Park ManagerBecause it has the best known and accountable safety record (in my personal books anyway).Can you explain, then, exactly how we arrived at the current 130 lb weak link standard?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846Jim Gaar - 2009/09/18 19:23:44 UTC
Hell I've literally shoved the control frame out in front of me to avoid a whack when it got a little ahead of me in a light DW landing, similar to when I've had to slide it in on my belly (did that once after a weaklink brake coming off a launch cart.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.
- This is Marc Fink you're talking about. Trust me... He - and we - are way better off having the fishing line make his critical decisions for him.Swift - 2013/02/13 18:05:42 UTCThis seems to be more of an issue of the pilot not being able to release when control is lost. Wouldn't it be better to design a release that the pilot could actually use when needed?I've been aerotowing since 1996, and have had more than my share of tows gone bad, including a couple of for-real genuine lock-outs that resulted in a glider stall. In every case I never felt that I wished the weaklink had instead not failed when it did.
Try reading Donnell Hewett's Skyting newsletter series sometime.Wouldn't that make more sense than trying to choose a magic tension value that would take that decision out of the pilot's control?
He just jumped on board with what all the other stupid clones were doing and saying and helped contribute to its huge track record.Swift - 2013/02/13 18:14:30 UTC
Re: Former Flight Park Manager
Can you elaborate more on how you personally arrived at this conclusion?Because it has the best known and accountable safety record (in my personal books anyway).
'Cause they've gotten:Swift - 2013/02/13 18:28:32 UTC
Re: Poll?
One problem with such a poll is that some pilots who have had problems with weaklinks breaking at the wrong times are not here to participate.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Airborne Gulgong Classic
New South Wales
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
...that they've given up and moved on to sane activities in which they didn't have a piece of fishing line wiping out all their best days for them.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WtDFymXlPUKeith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
...killed that they didn't return to the sport.Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
...blacklisted for standing up to this cult and trying to fix this insane situation.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
So, argue all you like.
I don't care.