Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.

- But if you're CLEARLY off the bottom of the FAA specs using 130 pound Greenspot...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIGsgNFRWM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


...you are absolutely GOOD TO GO because you're using a PROVEN SYSTEM that has WORKED for quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows - including the one in which Zack Marzec was whipstalled, tumbled, and killed two weekends ago.

- Something MANUFACTURED...

manufacture - the making of articles on a large scale using machinery

You off the scale stupid fucking douchebags:

-- assume that one G weak links are capable of an amazing variety of judgment calls which benefit the pilot to the extent that he can fly safely through any emergency with one hand

-- studiously ignore a third of a century's worth of often brutal evidence that it can't

-- assume that there can never be a serious downside to popping off tow at random

-- studiously ignore a third of a century's worth of often brutal evidence that there can

-- tie a piece of fishing line to a piece of rope one at a time

-- assume that:
--- you can radically increase its strength with various tying and installation schemes
--- it blows at twice the strength it does

-- tell everybody it blows at twice the strength it does

-- fail to take into consideration the fact that a weak link on a bridle end feels less of the load than does one on a towline end

-- fail to take into consideration the effect of bridle apex angle

-- tell everybody that a weak link on one end of a bridle end doubles its strength when it detects a weak link on the other end

-- invent various numbers of tows for which loops of fishing line maintain enough of their integrity to be acceptably close to the "PERFECT" rating

-- do absolutely no bench testing

-- tell people bench testing is of no value because it lacks "external validity"

-- configure systems such that weak links can be and ARE taken out of the equation by bridle wraps

-- are incapable of understanding that:
--- a weak link on a glider does not negate the weak link on the tug
--- heavier and draggier gliders need proportionally higher tow tensions and weak links than lighter and cleaner gliders

But everything's cool as long as the fishing line you tie onto your rope is "MANUFACTURED".

Well lemme tell ya sumpin', motherfucker...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8305364731/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306429930/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8305393601/


-- The nylon floss upon which these Shear Links are based is MANUFACTURED.
-- I don't tie, need to worry about, or make bogus ASSUMPTIONS about KNOTS.
-- The floss is stitched between leechline element and I can hit pretty fine increments which TEST very consistently.
-- The stitching is protected such that there's no degradation through use and the Shear Links last and retain their integrity FOREVER.
-- It's a proven system that WORKS and has a PERFECT track record: Nobody's EVER had one blow on him.

- I didn't get into this sport to perfect my standup landings, fly a glider with a piece of string or some shithead in a tug acting as Pilot In Command, stand in line watching the soaring window evaporate while you Ridgely pigfuckers rewarded the assholes with "safe" weak links with cuts in line and "free" relights subsidized by the people with dangerous weak links, or spend my time trying to convince some brain damaged pigfucker SUPPOSEDLY but actually UN qualified only to supply me tension through a rope that I've paid for.

And as much as I loved flying and the potential that aerotowing had to offer the risk of ending up like Zack you assholes needlessly subjected me to EVERY flight and the revulsion I had to suppress in associating with you Flight Park Mafia dickheads wasn't worth it.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

Keep up the great work and see how sustainable your "industry" and its "standards" are.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

My general rule is "no funky shit".

Really?

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

I was under the impression that you incestuous pigfuckers worshipped and adored funky shit.

Name ONE piece of tow equipment that that asshole has "designed" that hasn't malfunctioned, become inaccessible, locked up, jammed, snagged, blown and killed somebody - including a Norwegian national champion who hit the ground with the rope still connected...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318769461/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318781297/

...to Bobby's idiot tail.

I don't like people reinventing the wheel...

Because the bent pin crap that Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey slapped together over two decades ago was PERFECT and could not be improved on.

Of course the people who develop gliders, harnesses, instruments are all morons because they failed to do things as perfectly as Bobby on THEIR first efforts and are always reinventing THEIR wheels to make them cleaner, faster, lighter, stronger, more durable, better handling, safer, more idiot resistant, more capable...

...and I don't like test pilots.

Don't like? I *DESPISE* them. The absolute ARROGANCE of ANYONE stupid enough...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2871
speed link

JD Guillemette - 2008/02/07 12:51:57 UTC

For these same reasons, It just bothers me when people try to "improve" upon Bobby Bailey's designs ... simply put, the designs are at the maximum of efficiency and safety. So I'm right back to where I was. I see no problem in the way things are currently done and creating overly complicated mouth actuated releases is just a waste of time.

...to think for a nanosecond that these jewels of perfection that Bobby created...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8331326948/

No stress because I was high.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!

...at the very dawn of Dragonfly aerotowing. And ALL..

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4049
Towing errata

Bill Bryden - 2004/04/01 16:20:18 UTC

Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.

Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.

...with NO BENCH TESTING WHATSOEVER!!! *THAT* is GENIUS! We're lucky to have individuals that gifted come along once every five hundred years.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Have I towed a few "test pilots?

You haven't towed any "test pilots". Hell, you haven't towed any PILOTS *PERIOD*. A REAL pilot would never go up behind you because he'd be rolling dice with his life. Whenever I went up behind you I wasn't a pilot. I was a scared dice roller hoping that your weak link would hold and you wouldn't make any good decisions in the interest of my safety until after I cleared two hundred feet.

Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope.

You've never had any controlled conditions. There's ALWAYS a triple strand piece of fishing line acting as both the glider's Pilot In Command and a Vegas roulette wheel in the equation.

It's a damn high bar.

One you'll never have a snowball's chance in hell of approaching.

I've told more to piss off than I've told yes.

Yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Axel Banchero - 2009/06/20 04:57:01 UTC

I always check my spinnaker shackle hook and the cable. Mine is still pretty much new and has worked perfectly.

But I have seen others fail twice and one of them was during one of my training tandems. I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release.

Make sure they've always got the best quality equipment this industry is capable of producing.

I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release.

And that makes him a TEST PILOT?

GT Manufacturing, Inc. / Lockout Mountain Flight Park, Inc. - 2009/07/12

In designing this new release we wanted strength, consistency, ease of use, and less release pull-pressure. Also, in comparison to the industry standard Wichard spinnaker release, the barrel release is designed so that the pilot can easily tell that it is connected properly. We have demonstrated that the smooth stainless steel flipper is a lot easier on weak links and has no edge to hang up. Also, the hinge area is not sharp like we find on the Wichard release. A sharp hinge can cut your weak link and cause premature releases. We feel that this design has exceeded our expectations in all regards. We hope the GT barrel release exceeds your expectations as well!

- It's NOT homemade.
- It's MANUFACTURED.
- It's Industry Standard equipment.
- In designing that new release they wanted strength, consistency, ease of use, and less release pull-pressure.
- There's no edge to hang up on like there is with the spinnaker shackle that Robin was using.
- It's got a smooth stainless steel flipper and hinge area to ensure that the weak link CAN'T POSSIBLY break.
- They feel that that design has exceeded their expectations in all regards.

I can't imagine how that guy would've been any LESS of a TEST PILOT than he was. As a matter of fact with something THAT SAFE, a design they feel has exceeded their expectations in all regards...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

...I could only believe that the sport would soon lose its attraction. If I were flying something that safe I'd probably put a couple of kinks in my sidewires to maintain some of the adrenaline rush I always get with less meticulously engineered equipment.

But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

OF COURSE NOT!!!

Whenever you're flying a release that you suspect might not work...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Antoine Saraf - 2011/07/14 08:33:59 UTC

LMFP Release
I sent 3 times this email to fly@hanglide.com without any answer !!! :

Hello

I recently purchased one of your Aerotow Primary Releases for use in aerotowing tandem gliders. We conduct a tandem aerotowing operation just south of Paris, France.

We have been having considerable trouble releasing when the line is under high tension. It takes considerable effort to pull the Rope-Loop release, often requiring two or three violent tugs on the loop. Obviously, this is a considerable safety concern.

...just install a Marzec Link because if you're ever in a low level lockout with a jammed release...

Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association

Lockouts can be prevented by using good technique, light tow pressures, and appropriately-sized weak links--if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.

...a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4


And if that's not happening soon enough to suit you...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

God I love the ignore list

Tad loves to have things both ways.
First weaklinks are too weak, so we MUST use stronger ones. Not doing so is reckless and dangerous.
Then they're too strong.

I have no time for such circular logic.
I had it with that crap years ago.

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.

...just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Take Tad's theory and shove it. Save your ass. They can use that as a foundation on which to build all the cloned parts to replace the stuff that was destroyed on the rest of your body.

Not, of course, that you'd really have a choice of using anything heavier than a Marzec Link...

The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 130-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link. We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with.

At anything over 226 pounds towline you're fucked, at this time anyway. But that's OK 'cause it's virtually impossible to imagine a situation in which you could be under that much tension and want to have been dumped long before.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.

Once again we are privileged to bask in the glow of your unfathomable wisdom.

But again, every tuggie's different...

Which, obviously, they wouldn't be if they weren't a bunch of gene pool dregs with no fuckin' clue and no hope whatsoever of understanding the physics of towing and the grade school science and math which preclude one from flying with bent pin releases and perfect one-size-fits-all weak links - which are dangerously and illegally understrength for the vast majority of towed gliders.

...and every situation is different.

Yep, sometimes you've got enough altitude to survive a Rooney Link, sometimes...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.

Good, Jimmy. Keep endearing yourself to flight park customers and the hang gliding public at large with statements like that. I'm collecting them and they're gonna look real good when I put them all together.

And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.

Your *JOB* - asshole - is to transmit tension to a glider through a rope. That's not a particularly tall order but even then...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...you totally suck at it - especially on the only days worth getting out of bed for.

Sorry. It's just the way it is.

Keep talking, pigfucker.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC

How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?

With virtually no oxygen going to his brain he can put a lot more energy into moving his fingers up and down on a keyboard.

One of the question asked several times was what he thinks Greenspot 'works' to do, but...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

I'll answer actual questions if you're keen to actually hear the answers...

...he only answers "actual questions".

By "actual questions" he means ones that don't pertain to his dear friend Zack Marzec tumbling to his death from 150 feet over Quest when his Rooney Link vaporized.

As far as I can see, his position can be boiled down to 'we use this because this is what we use.' And somehow asserting this constitutes 'refuting' something...

Would someone with as keen an intellect as Jim Rooney of a fucking genius like Bobby Bailey use anything OTHER than what they use? Surely you can see the logic behind this approach.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 23:18:54 UTC

Naw... You want me to make bold black and white statements so that you can have a go.

Sure. I've always enjoyed this bold black and white statement:

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

from a flavor of aviation that WASN'T hijacked by shitheads, egomaniacs, scam artists, slimeballs, and serial killers.

Unfortunately that's not what you're getting.

Fer sure. But the really cool thing is that ANYTHING you can say at this point is a polar contradiction of something you've said previously. And even some of the typical crowd Davis allows to participate in his cult are beginning to see that.

Some people listen with the intent of understanding.

Others do so with the intent of responding.

Wow! That was so profound sounding!

- Were you in a previous life a Jedi Master a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?

- How long do you think it will take us weekend warrior types to attain the level of enlightenment you have reached on the issue of 130 pound Greenspot?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 00:34:14 UTC

Ok, I've got a few minutes to write ya up something a bit more.

Still got plenty of oxygen going to those fingers?

You need to understand something here that you're really not getting yet.

This stuff really isn't all that complicated. He got it in very short order - but you'll never have a prayer. Stick to telling everybody how to perfect their standup landings and let the rest of us get on with aviation.

You are talking as if I or "we" need to justify something to you.

No, he's keeping you talking long enough for some of the slower kids to realize that you're incompetent and a total fraud.

This is 180deg off.

Ooh! Jimmy used an actual NUMBER! Maybe we can get him to start talking pounds and Gs. 'Cause when some asshole starts doing that it makes it real easy for other people to gun him down.

YOU are the one arguing with a system that's been in place and has been worked on over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.

I'm a bit confused here, Jimmy...

How can a system that's BEEN IN PLACE over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows be getting WORKED ON over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows?

Pick one dude.

- Did they nail it with the first spool of fishing line they tried, like they did with their spinnaker shackles, cables, bicycle brake levers, velcro, and bent pins?

- Or are they constantly testing other flavors of fishing line to best approximate their expectations that...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We want our weak links to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent weak link breaks from turbulence. It is the same expectation of performance that we have for the weak links we use for towing sailplanes.

...their weak links break as early as possible in lockout situations but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence - the same expectations of performance that they have for the weak links they use for towing sailplanes.

Hey! Maybe Zack, instead of the proven 130 pound Greenspot he was reported to have used, was ACTUALLY using one of those experimental pieces of fishing line that was really great for lockouts but coming up a bit short in the holding in turbulence department!

That sure would explain how something like that could happen. This is why an excellent tug driver with a keen intellect virtually never tows test pilots.

The onus is on YOU.

You just made another HUGE tactical mistake. I didn't catch it skimming through your evasive incoherent babbling on the previous reads but let's see you try to wriggle out of this one - motherfucker.

Not the other way around.
"We" don't need to justify jack.

Maybe you'll need to explain why...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

...anyone would attempt to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works?

You want to take pot shots... go for it.

I think there are a few people who'd really enjoy cutting your ass apart with an AK-47.

I couldn't give a toss.
You don't like my answers... again, get bent.

That's OK, Jimmy. I personally LOVE your answers.

You're the newbie.

Yeah, there's just no fuckin' way a newbie with a brain can demolish a system that fucking geniuses and people with keen intellects have had in place AND been working on over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.

You want to bring in something new?... go for it... it's to YOU to justify it.
It is not to us to justify what we do.

You're fucked.

We've been at this a long time and have gone over and over all these little arguments before that you think are "new".

Always with some variation of:

YOU are the one arguing with a system that's been in place and has been worked on over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.

...but this time you tripped up and used conficting lies in the same sentence.

They're new to you.
But they're old hat to "us".

You're fucked. You're already dead but don't know it yet. And all of your loyal cult members are gonna go down with you.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/17 06:07:35 UTC

Naw... You want me to make bold black and white statements so that you can have a go.

If you're position is correct, you should be able to answer the questions without falling into that trap, especially since these are old arguments.

But the subject of hang glider weak links is an extremely complex one with many gray areas. You just have no idea how difficult it is to understand a piece of string that:

- meets the expectations of breaking as early as possible in lockout situations but is strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence

- works equally well for every solo glider ever made

- minimizes glider damage and pilot injury in blown launch crashes

- ensures dive recovery by 250 feet

- is easily recognizable by tug drivers so that irresponsible glider pilots want be able to slip into line with anything that will disable the tug's weak link

- has a track record of quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows

How are we doing on bandwidth?

YOU are the one arguing with a system that's been in place and has been worked on over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.

Been in place, yes, but I've seen no evidence that the system's been 'worked on' at all (or that it's even changed for that matter).

Sounds like it abruptly went up 54 percent...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

Thought I already answered that one... instead of quoting myself (have a look back if you don't believe me), I'll just reiterate it.

I don't advocate anything.
I use what we use at the flight parks. It's time tested and proven... and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit I've seen out there.

130lb greenspot (greenspun?) cortland fishing line.
In stock at Quest, Highland, Eastern Shore, Kitty Hawk Kites, Florida Ridge, and I'm pretty sure Wallaby, Lookout and Morningside.

...at Morningside.

Before Quest redid their website a few years ago, this could be found there:

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

This is the earliest justification I can find of Greenspot's universal use. It's so full of fallacy that it and other statements (some previously mentioned) from the supposed experts have led me to conclude that there is no logical reason for its universal use.

And isn't it interesting that that crap could stand for maybe a dozen years without anybody so much as batting an eye.

And since:

"We" don't need to justify jack.

it looks like that conclusion will remain.

What's a better idea than universal Greenspot? USHPA's recommendation is a weak link value at the end of a bridle equal to the combined weight of the pilot and glider. Not perfect, but it's a start. Where do you get something like that?

http://www.towmeup.com/weaklink.html

Available in 50 lb increments from 150 to 300 lbs. Braided Dacron, same as Greenspot.

But certainly not at the exacting precision of the tournament fishing line required for one-size-fits-all aerotow weak links.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 10:37:47 UTC

I'm not sure who you're arguing with Zack, but it's sure not me... cuz man... you've got some pretty big hangups mate.

Yeah. Intelligence, logic, literacy, competence, rationality, honesty, responsibility, decency... The list just goes on and on...

Ra ra ra... burn the greenspot!!!!

We don't need to do that. It's pretty much a self correcting problem - as Zack Marzec just demonstrated two weekends ago.

Get real man.
You think that's all we use?

Now WHY would ANYONE have THAT...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 00:34:14 UTC

YOU are the one arguing with a system that's been in place and has been worked on over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.

...impression?

It's simply ABSURD to think that that's all "WE" use. I mean, one weight fishing line for gliders of ALL flying weights and load capacities? People missing totally awesome flying days...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...because they can't get more than two hundred feet off the runway after two or three tries?

No, OF COURSE that's not all we use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TDHqsXRtl0


You think we're stupid or sumpin'?

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC

Weak links don't always break in lockout situations... so lets make them stronger? Are you nuts?

I don't care if they're "Meant" to break in lockout. How the hell is it a bad thing if they do?

You're advocating making tow systems more dangerous for the sake of definitions. Here in reality, weak links work. They may not suit your definitions, but you're on crack if you think they're not doing people good.

And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.

Nah, we discuss this all the time and are CONSTANTLY working to improve and perfect aerotowing equipment and procedures.

Hell, just in this thread, you seem to have missed the 200lb orange links.

Which you referred to as being...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink. It's a bit stronger...

...a BIT stronger... Really not much of a departure from the 130 that's been proven to work so well...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

...at all the flight parks and competitions.

Ah, but your strawman argument lives and breaths by your black and white hyperbole.
When you come back to reality, let me know.
Till then, I'm sick of it.

You're hear to argue. Plain and simple. I've got better stuff to do.
Go blow smoke somewhere else. I couldn't give a rats ass... I won't be towing you so what do I care?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else. And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.

So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

DO NOT *EVER* LET THIS MOTHERFUCKER OFF THE HOOK.

In case there's anybody listening to this crap who's more easily manipulated than a three year old...

This 130 pound Greenspot "standard aerotow weak link" bullshit has FINALLY collapsed - about half a dozen years after I began my jihad. And now all the stupid sleazy motherfuckers responsible for the past couple of decades of the carnage this has wrought are gonna start quietly upping their strengths, claiming credit for the evolution, pretending that there really wasn't all that much to the Greenspot era, and doing their best to write Yours Truly out of the history books - the same way they treated Mike Lake and his East Anglia crowd.

Do not let them get away with this because they'll use they're fake credibility to continue to suppress the release technology - which is the other half of this equation.

And WHEN somebody is next killed in a low level lockout because he's using a Davis "Release"...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

...that stinks on ice they'll blame it on the two hundred pound Tad Link and start putting 130 back into circulation.

Congratulations, Zack.

I won't be towing you so what do I care?

Today you have become a man.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/17 13:33:05 UTC

You think that's all we use?

I'm well aware that it's not. But it's the default and what's used in the vast majority of instances, at least in the US. And often it's mandated. From the rules for the last Big Spring comp:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line...

If it is the wording - right down to "Tolling line" - was copied and pasted from the 2007 Worlds.

You're hear to argue.

I'm here to promote reform.

Which will necessitate getting Rooney's head on a pike.

[Tad Eareckson]

And a big posthumous thanks to the other Zack - without whose Quest Link, pro toad bridle, and noble sacrifice none of this would've been possible.