Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/17 16:04:16 UTC
Alpharetta, Georgia

Weaklinks

OK, This is getting tiresome...

Didn't have to be this tiresome.

If the fuckin' assholes at the dump at which you bought your ratings...

Kinsley Sykes - 51333 - H4 - 2011/03/10 - Gordon Cayce - AT FL PA AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC

...had taught you what a fuckin' weak link...

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

...and an appropriate rating is this could've been handled in under a minute.

...but i'm cranky today;

Yeah, well try to hit your shift key at the appropriate times anyway.

1. FAA regs - I'm not going down the path of whether or not they apply to towing HG - please cite the research that the FAA used to say that what is right for sailplanes also applies (and makes sense) to HG's?

Please cite the research that the Flight Park Mafia used to say:

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 1998/02

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

Quest Air

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air.

Lockout Mountain Flight Park

Lockouts can be prevented by using good technique, light tow pressures, and appropriately-sized weak links--if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.

and tell me just how much sense any of THAT makes.

After reading that crap I'd take any other theory as a first choice sight unseen.

2. A weaklink not breaking is better than one that doesn't...

If someone desires to get off tow then what's stopping him from effecting that action himself? I mean other than the Industry Standard equipment that the people who brought us the standard aerotow weak link have been perfecting for twenty years.

...please tell me how the two pilots in the videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27yFcEMpfMk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4

...would have been better of staying on the tow line?

Please tell me:

- Why neither of those Rooney Links did...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

...what the folks who actually know what they are talking about assured us they would.

- why any sane person would ever risk towing up without a release he can blow with both hands on the basetube within a quarter second of the time his brain kicks in.

- how Jamie could've possibly been locked out despite remaining in excellent position inside of the Cone of Safety.

- how great are one's chances of surviving a low level lockout regardless of what's being used for a weak link or release.

Or for that matter, support with facts how staying on the line is better than breaking off anytime when things are getting ugly?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg

(other than the hassle of re-launching)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

3. Regardless of your release or your weaklink strength you will always have the chance of being released unexpectedly...

Cite some incidents of people being released unexpectedly by something other than Rooney Links and...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...fuckin' assholes making good decisions in the interest of gliders' safety on the assumption that the gliders are incapable of competently acting as Pilots In Command of their own planes (or are unable to using the shit equipment with which they've been outfitted).

...so relying on tow tension to "fix" a problem won't always work.

That's why God gave some of us the ability to develop releases that can be used whenever a situation calls for it.

Conversely, you need to fly like you might come off the line at any time.

Yes. And:

- if you believe that you'll always be able to survive an instantaneous and irreversible loss of a couple hundred pounds of thrust on top of whatever else is being thrown at you by some asshole on the front end of the string, Mother Nature, or a combination of the two - and that you're such a fucking Gift from God to aviation that there's no possibility that you yourself won't have contributed anything undesirable to the mix - then you're a total fucking moron.

- anybody who uses a weak link which will allow a glider to blow off before it's being stressed at anything under two and a half Gs has already demonstrated that he's not such a fucking Gift from God to aviation and has already contributed something undesirable to a lot of potential undesirable situations and mixes.

4. Unlike sailplanes, the pilot is an integral part of the tow system.

And, unlike sailplanes, the pilot - prone, with BOTH hands on the BASETUBE and not being pulled by a "pro tow" bridle forward and out of position relative to the CONTROL bar - is an integral part of the GLIDER. If he rotates upright, puts his hands on the downtubes, takes one hand off the basetube, or connects to the tug at his shoulders only he is no longer flying a certified glider and he will NOT have the control authority he might need to keep himself alive if/when the shit hits the fan.

[Steve Davy]

Steve! Come in Steve! Where are you, dude? We really need you now like we've never needed you before.

For what?
The weak link issue is self correcting. Idiots go up on Greenspot, crash and die = one less idiot. I'm content to let idiots crash and burn.

[Tad Eareckson]

We're trying to:
- save the sport
-- not the idiots in it
-- FROM the idiots in it
- make life as miserable and humiliating as possible for the surviving idiots who are destroying the sport
- save some hypothetical future person who's more of a brainwashing victim than an idiot - like Zack C and I both were

Rooney's down now. We need to keep kicking and stomping until we're absolutely positive he'll never get back up again. And if they're still able to identify what's left of him through dental records we've only done a mediocre job.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/17 16:04:16 UTC

The breaking strength of an HG is a lot more than I can bench press, even one half of it's breaking strength if using a two point release.

No shit. And this is relevant to the discussion how?

At some point, getting pulled through the control frame is going to be worse than almost any scenario I could think of.

- How would you know? Can you cite an instance of anybody ever being pulled through a control frame? At least to the extent of the 260 pounds worth a Rooney Link will allow to be applied to a pro toad? (And bear in mind that there are pro toads that hook in at half that weight.)

- Would it be worse than the scenario in which Mike Haas was locked out and USHGA's crack investigative team found no evidence that he made an attempt to release prior to the weak link break - as the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release?

- Would it be worse than the scenario in which Zack's Rooney Link popped as he was pitched up by a monster thermal at 150 feet?

But meanwhile, back in reality...

- The breaking strength of a glider is, like, a TON. Fuck what you can or can't bench press.

- You don't get "pulled through the control frame" appreciably more than you do for normal tensions. When forward tension increases when you're being towed one point it's transmitted through the harness and suspension to the hang point and the glider trims / pitches up and climbs in response.

- And if you're unable to hold the glider down level with the tug the tow will start taking on the characteristics of a truck tow. And you're not gonna be getting much of a pull from forward anymore.

(and yes, no matter how easy it is to pull/bite whatever your release, at some point it's going to not work..

Correct. What to do... What to do...

Hey! Here's a thought! What if you introduced some device into the system that broke before that point was reached! Some kind of LINK that's WEAKER than everything else in the system. Then you'd know that whatever happens you'll always be able to pull, bite, stop biting, whatever...

...and if it jams...

It doesn't. This isn't the kind of bent pin shit you're used to getting from the folk who actually know what they're talking about.

...and you have a 400lb weaklink (as was mentioned earlier) and you get out of sorts on your tow, explain how you are not totally F'ked?

You mean more totally fucked than this:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

asshole?

You DESIGN *AND* LOAD TEST the release to EASILY handle 700 pounds and use a WEAK LINK to limit the load to 550 pounds.

So how come you're so rabid about the stuff WE'VE DESIGNED that you don't know shit about and don't have a snowball's chance in hell of understanding but nevertheless feel quite comfortable stating in no uncertain terms WILL fail when we have hundreds upon hundreds of reports of Industry Standard JUNK failing left and right, sometimes with fatal results?

And if all this bullshit you're babbling about has a dust particle's worth of legitimacy, then where are the horror stories from the Russians...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JjtEnudT8Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFiJDmAq_Ao


...and why haven't they abandoned their deadly contraptions and reconfigured with all of the fine American equipment...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1459
Mouth release

Sergey Kataev - 2006/05/23 16:27:17 UTC

I have aerotowed recently, my first three times. Wasn't allowed to use my mouth release (got the proper type which opens when you open your mouth) because the club uses Wallaby ranch style V-bridle. I've been really worried about releasing in a critical situation.

Also it didn't help my confidence that the particular top release was very hesitant to open - it took about three seconds of squeezing the bicycle brake type lever to open the release.

...that's been perfected over the course of decades by the folk who actually know what they're talking about?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/17 16:04:16 UTC

So far this has gone down the path of "there was an accident...

Bullshit. There was no accident. There was fatal crash, an adjustment to the gene pool.

...so therefore I am right" and the FAA says so, it must be right (for HG).

- What part of THIS:

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


are you having so much difficulty understanding?

- Listen, motherfucker. Here are the possible scenarios...

-- He wanted to come off tow.

So why didn't he blow one of the two bent pin releases that Paul and Lauren Tjaden and their predecessors at Quest have spent twenty years perfecting?

Oh well, at least he wasn't pulled through the control frame by his five hundred pound Tad Link and having his teeth ripped out when his Tad Release disintegrated.

-- He didn't want to come off tow.

Therefore his Rooney Link overrode the decisions of both him and his driver to continue the tow and killed him.

Oh well, at least he wasn't pulled through the control frame by his five hundred pound Tad Link and having his teeth ripped out when his Tad Release disintegrated.

-- He totally sucked as a pilot and had no business even thinking about flying that day

Pick one. Either:
- his Quest:
-- Releases sucked
-- Link sucked
- he sucked and the Quest operation sucks for allowing sucky pilots to fly in insanely dangerous conditions

Or maybe this was just a freak accident, part of the risk that we require to really enjoy the sport, nothing to be learned or improved on.

In that case then why has the discussion gone on for two weeks and twelve pages so far?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/17 16:04:16 UTC

The systems most mainline flight parks and pilots use have a very excellent safety and performance record.

- How the fuck do you know?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?

Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.

When was the last time you heard any of these motherfuckers report anything short of the fatalities that they're incapable of covering up anyway?

- They maintain great safety and performance records by classifying THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI


kinda bullshit as routine, nonevents.

- So if they have such fucking excellent safety and performance records why haven't ANY of them come into this discussion to quickly set things straight for us and get us all back on the right track? How come all we've got is Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney droning on about how "we" are obviously doing things perfectly because we've been doing it the same way for quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows and anyone who says otherwise can get fucked?

The folks that are arguing the other way...

The one which would've allowed Zack, rather than his fishing line, to decide whether or not to keep the glider on tow...

quite frankly have neither.

Yeah. Just make up whatever facts you feel like to support the kind of shoddy operation that just assisted Zack Marzec in his suicide and denigrate the records we've been able to rack up under flight park management that suppresses circulation of our equipment and...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ksykes

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 10:37:47 UTC

Go blow smoke somewhere else. I couldn't give a rats ass... I won't be towing you so what do I care?

...cuts us ourselves off when we start exuding a little too much competence and winning battles.

As Jim said, the onus is on you to show that there is a problem.

THIS:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC

The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

When the lift/turbulence was encountered, the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack. Apparently, the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled and then nosed down and tumbled. Eye witnesses said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low. Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.

Zach was conscious immediately after the accident but died in route to the hospital.

...do anything for you?

Right now, you are advocating solutions based the sole premise of;

- We say they are better
- We looked up FAA regs (please see point one on applicability to HG) and folks are using might not be compliant with that in all cases

- They're flagrantly violating them.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/20 22:25:38 UTC

Something to bear in mind... the tug's weaklink is three strand.
For clarity... A normal single loop weaklink would be considered two. A tandem double loop is considered four.
In the tandem setup, the "weaklink" in the system is at the tug end, not the glider.

They TELL us they're flagrantly violating them.

- The ONLY RATIONAL - and BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS - explanation for this runway splat was a Rooney Link that blew up in Zack's face...

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...

...at the worst possible time, when the glider was climbing hard in a near stall situation.

The FAA regs specify a 1.2 G wide safe/legal range and Zack was either scraping or off the bottom of it.

Do the fuckin' math.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/17 16:04:16 UTC

- There have been some accidents

I haven't heard of any.

A better approach might be "we have done some flight testing and purposefully got into a lockout and were able to;'

- Fuck flight testing. Flight testing is only useful to assholes like you who never got a solid grip on grade school arithmetic.
- We have videos of any scenario you wanna name. The flight testing - as unnecessary as it is - has been done.

1. fly out of it
2. Not release the mouth release when you say "oh shit"...

Oh, thank you SO MUCH for pointing out that somebody who spits out his release lanyard when he really needs it might not be around much longer to continue fucking up the gene pool.

Funny that the only people who have all these problems with these releases...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JjtEnudT8Y


...are the assholes who don't use them, haven't ever even seen them, and are too fucking stupid to be able to understand them anyway. Reminds me a lot of Loony Bob babbling for months about all the lethal hazards of lift and tug.

...as the lockout goes beyond the point of control...

As opposed to a LOCKOUT that HASN'T gone beyond the point of control - one of those lockouts in which you're doing just fine.

(oh wait, that's actually a good thing)

Depends a lot an who we're talking about. For you and Paul Hurless - DEFINITELY.

3. Not loose most of your teeth when something else breaks and tears the whole contraption out

Fuckin' shithead.

- I get so goddam sick of you douchebags who:
-- can't spell LOSE
-- have NO CONCEPT of engineering
-- can't:
--- be bothered to read the documentation on the load testing
--- understand the concept of using a WEAK LINK to blow before the stuff it's protecting
-- think that it's possible to have teeth pulled out by a string one's holding between his teeth
- Yes. A string you're holding with several pounds of clamping force between TWO incisors has the potential to pull out MOST of your teeth.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/17 16:04:16 UTC

Deltaman and Zach seem to be jumping on Jim for not using facts..

No they're not. They're jumping on him because the only fact he's using is that 130 pound Greenspot has a track record quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows long.

...while not using RELEVANT facts to make their case..

Don't worry about our case. It's so far out of your league as to be beyond description. Just keep doing things EXACTLY as you're doing them now - EXACTLY as Zack Marzec was doing with a long and perfect track record until a couple of weeks ago.

When these guys agree with themselves on a forum where they all talk to each other, (http://www.kitestrings.org/forum2.html) no big deal, but I worry that folks will read the lack of response as some sort of endorsement of these positions.

Well then you make sure you get in touch with as many folk as you can and tell them only to read stuff that Davis, Rooney, and Jack endorse.

There's a lot of consensus of opinion, good will, harmony on those forums so folk reading stuff that has lotsa green thumbs up ratings can take it as gospel.

Actually, if you are on the fence, but think maybe these "strong weaklink" guys have a point, please go to that forum and read through it. Then see if you want to trust your life to their theories..

No. Don't trust your life to "OUR" (Sir Isaac's) *THEORIES*. Theory has no place in hang gliding.

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

Keep listening to Russell, Paul, Lauren, Rooney, Trisa...

I can REALLY use the data and I no longer feel the slightest twinge of regret or sympathy when one of you stupid motherfuckers kills himself. So go for it. Keep dying doing what you love. I'm here to save the sport - not the kinds of assholes it typically attracts. I'm totally cool with a 99 percent mortality rate.

I do think that doing things that question long held beliefs it good.

Yeah, I can really tell. And I think it's really great the way you've done so much to scrutinize the religion that's the foundation of hang glider towing.

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/11 17:46:12 UTC

Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/10 03:12:28 UTC

It's impossible for it to have been any worse. But you have zero foundation to say it would have been any better. But I am falling into the feeding the troll trap. Enjoy talking to yourself. Thanks Scare for the ignore button.

People thought Galileo was a heretic and also were fond of the earth being flat. I am sure we can do things better in towing, just would like that to be fact based, not just conjecture.

So answer me this then... How come:

- Paul, Lauren, Mark Frutiger, Donnell Hewett, Peter Birren, Dennis Pagen, Dr. Trisa Tilletti aren't in the conversation?

- Rooney's all the sudden talking about 200 pound weak links being just "a BIT stronger" than 130 and perfectly OK?

- Tim Herr and Trisa IMMEDIATELY deleted all specifications about and references to weak links and other aerotowing equipment from the SOPs and backdated the document to make it appear that the changes were made prior to the negligent homicide?

P.S.

- Morningside is using is using 200 pound one-size-fits-all weak links - 400 pounds towline.

- Zack Pro-Toad Marzec's flying weight was 255 pounds. A Morningside Link would've put Zack at 1.57 Gs - right about where a Tad Link would've put him at the flight park Tad Runs.

- Morningside is a Kitty Hawk Kites owned and run operation.

- Zack was a Kitty Hawk Kites tandem instructor.

So why was Zack using a 130 pound Quest Link which dropped him to around 1.02 Gs? Is there no best or better option here? Are we just talking quaint local customs, preferences, opinions?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Bill Cummings - 2013/02/17 17:09:32 UTC

Ksykes,

Go fuck yourself Bill. I don't know how much more black and white this one can get.

Paul Walsh - 2013/02/17 21:21:49 UTC

Ksykes...
They are also spewing forth on the .org the same drivel.

And you are totally unsurpassed as an authority on and gifted practitioner in the field of drivel.

Whilst rating each others comments with 3 thumbs up(goodness knows where) and rating anyone who disagrees with a sink this vote.
I hope people are aware enough to see thru this weird behaviour.

Yeah! That's REALLY WEIRD!!! People using the tools Jack provided on his forum for their intended purposes. This could lead to people writing posts expressing agreement with and contempt for various statements and opinions of various other writers.

I for one suggest that all 3 of them use 3000Kg links and try to show everyone else on video just how good they are.

Oh no. I wouldn't go THAT far. A 3000 KG weak link might not break before you get to much out of control or even save you in a lockout the way a Rooney Link always will.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/18 02:37:19 UTC

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/17 16:04:16 UTC

A weaklink not breaking is better than one that doesn't - please tell me how the two pilots in the videos would have been better of staying on the tow line?

You are totally missing what I'm saying. Firstly, to be clear, only one of the videos showed a weak link break. Secondly, I never said or implied they'd have been better staying on the line. My point was to illustrate that waiting for any weak link to break, no matter how light, is dangerous.

Or for that matter, support with facts how staying on the line is better than breaking off anytime when things are getting ugly?

Staying on the line is usually not better when things are getting ugly. But the decision to stay on the line or terminate the tow should be the pilot's. There are times when a tow termination is the worst thing that can happen.

Once again...
- On tow, a glider is climbing because the towline provides thrust.
- If a glider on tow suddenly loses its thrust, it will stop climbing and start descending.
- Until the glider noses down to compensate, this by definition means an increase in angle of attack.
- If the glider's angle of attack was already high when tension is lost, the glider could therefore stall.
- A stall near the ground is one of the most dangerous things that can happen in aviation.
- Hitting strong lift on tow is enough to cause a high angle of attack even without pilot input.

I've posted videos of stalls/mushing resulting from losses of line tension before on the .org.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=291768#291768

Conversely, you need to fly like you might come off the line at any time

I take it you meant 'consequently'? At any rate, we are in complete agreement here.

At some point, getting pulled through the control frame is going to be worse than almost any scenario I could think of.

I don't understand what you're saying, but as stated, we've broken 600 lb (line tension) weak links surface towing one-point with the pilot (and glider) in no danger.

and if it jams and you have a 400lb weaklink (as was mentioned earlier) and you get out of sorts on your tow, explain how you are not totally F'ked?

deltaman - 2012/05/25 19:45:39 UTC

I miss opportunity to be aerotowed in my mountains but 2 months ago we spent 4 days teaching AT to 12 pilots in 2 points. All had 190kg weaklink (220kg on tug side).
One of them oscillate and start to lockout. I said by radio : (time to) release, he did it (JoeStreet release), but 1ms to late.. the weaklink was just blowed.
and no unexpected wl failure in 90 AT.
I'm confident in this way to think wl..

But as previously illustrated, relying on any weak link to save you can leave you 'totally F'ked'.

Right now, you are advocating solutions based the sole premise of;

- We say they are better

I think you've got that backwards. You and Jim and the ones claiming you don't have to justify anything. I don't want anyone to believe anything just because someone says it to be true.

We looked up FAA regs (please see point one on applicability to HG) and folks are using might not be compliant with that in all cases

I only pointed this out when Miracle Pie Hole said he'd stop flying if regulations required stronger weak links. FAA regulations have almost nothing to do with the points I'm making. I cite them more as a model than anything, because...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4592
Weaklinks

Tracy Tillman - 2005/02/08 19:16:10 UTC

The sailplane guys have been doing this for a long time, and there are many hang glider pilots and quite a few tug pilots who don't understand what the sailplane guys have learned over the years.

please cite the research that the FAA used to say that what is right for sailplanes also applies (and makes sense) to HG's?

Do you only follow laws for which you've seen research you deem adequate?

The regs, for those interested:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr

Paul Walsh - 2013/02/17 21:21:49 UTC

I hope people are aware enough to see thru this weird behaviour.

And what do you expect them to see? People rate posts based on whether they agree/disagree all the time. How is this any different from the post above yours? (And for the record, I've never rated a post in my life.)

My hope is that people are aware enough to evaluate posts based on their content rather than being told what to think.

Zack C - 2013/02/18 02:51:12 UTC

A summary of my position for those having difficulty following:

1. If you wait for a weak link to break in a lockout, the strength of the weak link will make little difference.

2. Waiting for a weak link to break in a lockout could be catastrophic - regardless of pilot action following the break.

3. Consequently, it is dangerous to use a release you think might ever fail, or that you couldn't actuate before a weak link break.

4. There is no way to compute a weak link breaking strength that will best 'keep the pilot safe', especially considering that towline tensions vary depending on the mass of the pilot, the type and size of glider, and the thrust of the tug. The only thing a weak link can be relied on to do is keep towline tension from overloading the glider. This is the purpose of the weak link as stated by many sources (including USHPA).

5. While hang gliding would like to believe that a weak link break can always be handled with proper training, there are times, however rare, when no pilot action following a break can prevent an accident.

6. Besides the above danger, weak link breaks regularly slow down tow operations and expose pilots to increased risk.

I believe I've supported these statements, but would be happy to elaborate on or clarify any of them.