Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/18 14:32:01 UTC

Overall this actually makes some sense, but doesn't sound like what you have been saying so far. It also mis-states what others are saying, including me.

- Never suggested "waiting" for a weaklink to break or that it is a cure for a lockout, only suggesting that having one that is too strong will make a lockout worse.

A weak link is "too strong" ONLY if something breaks or bends before it does.

Once you get near a lockout, things happen quickly. I have broken a few weaklinks on active tows where the weaklink broke at the same time I was moving my hand to release (lookout style release, so very quick to do)

Yeah...

4:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC1yrdDV4sI


Right.

- All releases have the potential to fail, even very well designed ones.

Especially if you pack them with slush before you have the snowmobile take you up to freezing altitude. That's why you should always fly with a weak link light enough such that your driver will always be able to safely release you from an emergency situation by flooring it.

It could be dirt, mistake in set up etc.. they can release when you don't want, or not release when you do.

Yes. If you equip your glider with the shit the flight parks sell and permit you to use, are too fucking stupid to configure it properly, are happy to grind it into the mud, don't preflight it and take it into the air your idiot ass can quickly be removed from the gene pool, people will write scores of posts talking about how you died doing what you loved and how we all take risks every time we fly, I'll have a fun new source of material on which to write, and the world will be a better place.

But THERE IS ZERO EXCUSE for going up on anything less than a bulletproof release that is one hundred percent reliable.

A weakling is an integral part of a redundant safety system.

BULLSHIT.

- A weak link most assuredly IS NOT a backup for a shit release or a crutch for some asshole too incompetent to maintain, rig, preflight a good release.

- It's a separate component of a tow system with an ENTIRELY separate and distinct function.

- It is NOT a safety device. It is a POST safety device which would typically kick in ONLY after you have screwed a couple of major pooches and you may be dead well before or well after it kicks in.

If your release can't be released, you have a choice of hook knife or the tug giving you the line, or your weaklink breaking.

If your release can't be released then FUCK YOU. I've given you every opportunity to employ some sterling quality hardware and you've pretty much done nothing but piss all over it and me. You use MY STUFF the way *I* tell you then you will NEVER be stuck on tow fumbling around for your useless idiot fucking hook knife, waiting for your Rooney Link to blow, and watching the green blur of the ground coming up.

- In aero towing, the pilot is holding back the line tension. (you gave a truck towing example, where the line tension is primarily through the harness) - there is no way of getting anywhere near the breaking strength of the glider by resisting with your arms. Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is what can a normal pilot push back against while maintaining control?

This is still fucking lunacy. I'm not going to address it again. If you've got a weak link heavy enough to get you airborne you've got a weak link WAY more than adequate to transmit the misaligned tension it takes to lock you out and kill you irrespective of what steroids you're taking.

- Finally, I am not advocating that there is only one strength works...

ANY strength "WORKS". It's just that trying to get a straight answer about exactly what it WORKS to do is like pulling teeth - especially when you're dealing with an incompetent lying piece of aerotow industry shit like Rooney.

...heavier pilots might need a bit more...

- Do ya THINK?!?!?! They MIGHT need A BIT more? A bit more than something other than the universally recognized and praised 130 pound Greenspot with its track record of quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows?

- Heavier pilots are fuckin' LEGALLY REQUIRED to use PROPORTIONALLY more than the fishing line they let some of the runts get away with.

...and certainly there might be an opportunity to fine tune...

As long as the fine tuning is done only in terms of strands of 130 pound Greenspot and uses ASSUMED - versus TESTED - values. Because assumed values have much better external validity than tested ones.

...what I am very adamant about is having a reasoned discussion...

Yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

Zack figured it out.

Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.

Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Kinsley Sykes - 2012/08/17 20:29:21 UTC

Zack - I choose not to get on the Tad part 2 merry-go-round. But please enjoy yourself.

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/10 03:12:28 UTC

It's impossible for it to have been any worse. But you have zero foundation to say it would have been any better. But I am falling into the feeding the troll trap. Enjoy talking to yourself. Thanks Scare for the ignore button.

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/11 17:46:12 UTC

Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.

Sure. But let's just assume that Tad and his Clones couldn't possibly have anything to contribute other than mind-numbing bullshit. Let's just listen to most of the folks who have been towing for decades and have worked this stuff out and ignore the fact that Tad started towing when we were still hooking up through the control frame - a half a dozen years before Zack Marzec was even born and over twenty-seven years before Lauren Fucking Tjaden became an Eminently Qualified Tandem Pilot.

...vs. a hair on fire, arm waving using language...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 09:13:01 UTC

Hey Deltaman.
Get fucked.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

...that basically suggests that the tow parks are being reckless for using what seems to be the best available technology.

Hey Kinsley...

If the tow parks WEREN'T the reckless incompetent sleazebags and shitheads that they are, how come there are always these HUGE violent discussions on tow configurations, releases, actuators, bridles, weak links, lockouts...

The tow parks ALL have good, well engineered, durable, safe launch dollies which all look pretty much the same. They're good because the have to be. They have to work flawlessly scores of times a day EVERY FLIGHT. They can't get away with crap, they're are virtually no incidents resulting from defective dollies, and any problem with one is IMMEDIATELY remedied.

There are no heated discussions about launch dollies.

Only on the VERY RAREST of occasions does somebody get seriously fucked up as a consequence of crap glider end tow equipment. You almost always need several factors lining up JUST RIGHT at the right altitude to have a real bad day. So the flight parks use the crappiest equipment they can get away with in normal circumstances and write off all the crashes as pilot error.

If they were actually doing things right and know what the fuck they were talking about we'd all be on the same page with release systems comparable to the quality of our VG systems, tow related crashes would be pretty much nonexistent, and on the rare occasions when one happened, we'd all be on the same page with respect to why.

This bullshit and these bullshit discussions and flame wars don't happen in sailplaning 'cause:
- the underlying theory is solid
- there are no OPINIONS or EXPERTS
- the releases meet engineering standards and are built into the plane and actually work
- the weak links are all about one and a third Gs and specified by the manufacturer

If hang gliding aerotowing were conducted under the same standards and regulations as sailplaning none of this bullshit would be happening.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Swift - 2013/02/18 21:18:20 UTC

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/15 21:27:45 UTC

Yes, for solo towing, every single one worked, hundreds of times!

Hey, sorry to be so slow in getting back to you.
Maybe you can give the answer that J.Rooney can't.

There comes a point at which a tug driver...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.

...has established such a huge track record that it's no longer appropriate to press him for straight answers. It should be OBVIOUS that he knows what he's doing.

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/17 16:04:16 UTC

Deltaman and Zach seem to be jumping on Jim for not using facts..

You guys were in the early stage, test pilot days and Jim Rooney wasn't.

And I don't think we've done nearly enough to express our gratitude to these brave lads - the lucky ones still with us and the scores who perished in the effort - who learned to look Death in the face and laugh as they selflessly tested weight after weight after weight of fishing line until they finally zeroed in on the truly amazing 130 pound Greenspot we've all used and grown to love in the decades since.

How was 130# greenspot chosen to be the one size fits all weaklink for all pilots?

It was found to...

Quest Air

It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air.

...be weak enough so that it will breaks before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air.

It's only on the really good days...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

...that it breaks every time you fly into a bit of rough air.

Do you still use it?

Change to something else after the appalling sacrifices of all those test pilots, selflessly working for a better tomorrow for all of us? I still weep whenever I think of Topeka Tom who died flying a loop of 135. He locked out at 250 feet and only needed another five feet to pull out of the stall. That was just three days before a spool of 130 arrived in the mail.

Nothing stronger considered even for heavier configurations?

So just because you weigh more you should be subjected to fishing line that's more dangerous and has little to nothing in the way of a track record? That's racist. Your attitude totally disgusts me.

Swift - 2013/02/18 22:28:18 UTC

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/18 14:32:01 UTC

- All releases have the potential to fail, even very well designed ones.

A release that requires moving a hand off the base tube to operate has already failed.
A weak weaklink can't fix that.

Bob Buxton accident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2oeb0nNIKs
Scott Buxton - 2013/02/10
dead
http://www.kitestrings.org/post5902.html#p5902

016-04308
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3799/13746342624_c9b015f814_o.png


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/13746340634_a74b33d285_o.png
022-04610

So how come he didn't use his hook knife? A REAL pilot always has a good contingency plan thought out in advance so when a problem like that arises he can react instantly without having to think about anything.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/19 02:22:35 UTC

I'm still confused about this question that I'm supposed to be answering.

Really?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

I'da thunk that someone with your keen intellect, hundreds of hours and tows worth experience, knowledge of most things in general and hang gliding aerotowing in particular wouldn't be so confused at this point. A lot of other people seem to be FINALLY GETTING IT.

Btw, if I'm a "newbie" as you're suggesting, why would it matter about any question I have to answer?

Because Mitch has assured us all - and, in fact GONE ON RECORD to say - that you're the one person to whose comments we should give the most weight. So this is really important to us.

I mean, it's not like I've been doing this for a job since 2004 right?

And we ALL KNOW, of course, that anybody who's been doing ANY job for NINE YEARS couldn't POSSIBLY...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

...suck at it.

Sorry I can't help.

Oh, you ARE helping dude. Every time you answer a question with some variation of:

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

another one of the slower crowd starts realizing what's going on. And because you're always doing the first person plural thing you're drawing extra attention to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.

...all the assholes who "trained", employ, associate with, tolerate you and dragging them down with you. Whether you know it or not at this point, this bubble has burst - the Ponzi scheme you motherfuckers have been perpetrating on everybody for decades is collapsing.

I guess you'll have to find someone else to argue with.

And your pathetic attempts to declare victory and leave are having the same effect.

You have yourself so painted into a corner this time that, no matter what you say or do, YOU ARE *FUCKED* - along with everybody who's ever aligned himself with you and your fellow cult members.

If I had to choose between being you and being Zack Marzec at this point I'd go with the latter.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

The Floating Baron - 2013/02/19 03:05:15 UTC

You guys were in the early stage, test pilot days and Jim Rooney wasn't.
How was 130# greenspot chosen to be the one size fits all weaklink for all pilots?

Same way the bent parachute pin was chosen to be the core piece of hardware for all aerotowing "backup" releases - it was the first thing Bobby Bailey's hand contacted when he was reaching up his ass.

Do you still use it?

Anybody still using it after reading what happened to Zack Marzec seventeen days ago deserves to be still using it.

Nothing stronger considered even for heavier configurations?

Sounds like Morningside is using 200 for everyone.

I KNOW that this does NOT work for me (#130greenspot) ever...

Sure it does. When you hit it's breaking strength it breaks - one hundred percent of the time. It's infallible - a miracle of aeronautical engineering. It's a proven system with a track record of quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.

It works...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

I use what we use at the flight parks. It's time tested and proven... and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit I've seen out there.

... a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit Rooney's seen out there.

Sometimes this other bullshit stays intact when you exceed its breaking point so you hafta remain on tow when you don't want to be.

And other times it breaks before you hit its breaking point and you come off tow when you'd have preferred to be on to avoid the inconvenience of a relight.

130 pound Greenspot doesn't have issues like this.

oh and can we just get back to mourning the loss of a great guy...

Sure. If that floats your boat. But Zack WAS NOT a great guy - if for no other reason that he had a friendly relationship with a lying piece of shit like Rooney. But - as far as I can tell - he NEVER participated in ANY discussion of ANY safety issue before or after ANY of our frequent major disasters. And there have been no shortage of 130 pound Greenspot disasters to talk about.

Sorry to have to say this but if I had a time machine the only thing I'd use it for would be to get a good video of that tow and tell Russell, Paul, Lauren, Mitch, and Mark to go fuck themselves. I'd do nothing to interfere with what happened because that's what it took to start getting this fixed and there will be less carnage in the long run as a result.

If I had a magic wand I'd bring him back and suggest that he think about the orange stuff for future flights but that crash was the best thing that's EVER happened in this sport.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/19 03:13:45 UTC

The Floating Baron - 2013/02/19 03:05:15 UTC

Nothing stronger considered even for heavier configurations?

Yup. The orange string used for tandems at Wallaby.

He MEANT *SOLO*, asshole.

Has been for years.

Oh, really? From endless volumes of babblings from your pet cocksucker Rooney that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.

...everybody in the "professional community" was in total lockstep with everyone else - except, of course, for...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC

Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.

...the people in the professional community, like Dynamic Flight, who aren't.

So how come they've been using the orange stuff at Wallaby for years and just up the road at Quest...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

...they're still using...




...Lauren Links?

I use it also. 200 lbs.

Really?

Sounds pretty dangerous to me. I mean if it's been found through extensive tesing to be the ideal weak link for all tandem flights I can't believe that it's safe for a solo.

But if you think that it's safer then how come you weren't shoving it down everyone's throats with the same fundamentalist religious zealotry...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

...that you've always had for 130 pound Greenspot?

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

Have you gotten around to applauding Malcolm Jones's efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material?

But since 130 pound Greenspot...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15716
weak links

Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:15:56 UTC

Yup, at least 175 pounds- single loop of Cortland Greenspot 130 pounds test.

That was one end of the loop in a barrel release where the edges are a bit sharper than where I normally connect the weaklink loop with cloth loops at both ends.

I was jumping a bit so it is more than 175 pounds. Maybe 200+.

1.25g at 175 pounds.

1.42 at 200 pounds. So it is likely more than that.

...also blows around 200 - or more likely a bit more - why switch to something that's about the same and has a much shorter track record?

Isn't it rather unconscionable to be using a heavier weak link than the tug is...

Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:05:31 UTC

Tad doesn't agree, but the rest of us no doubt do, that we are in a partnership with the tug pilot, and that he needs to be protected also, and therefore our weaklink has to be less than his.

...and thus neutralizing the weak link he's using to make sure he isn't pulled out of control?

How would you feel if anything happened...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

No, I'm not being nice. No, I do not feel the need to be nice. You're trying to convince people to be less safe. I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

...to your favorite little cocksucker bravely and selflessly risking his life scores of times a day concerned only for our happiness and wellbeing?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/19 05:34:23 UTC

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/18 14:32:01 UTC

It also mis-states what others are saying, including me.

I didn't state anything about what anyone other than myself said in the post you quoted.

...only suggesting that having one that is too strong will make a lockout worse.

How strong is 'too strong'? At any rate, I've already said that a stronger weak link may increase the required recovery altitude from a lockout, but this only matters for a lockout near the ground. And there's plenty of video evidence to suggest that you don't want to be relying on any weak link near the ground.

I have broken a few weaklinks on active tows where the weaklink broke at the same time I was moving my hand to release (lookout style release, so very quick to do)

Yeah:

4:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC1yrdDV4sI


Very quick. And that was before they came out with an even better one.

Spinnaker type? Did your hand actually move? If so, this is not uncommon, because...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Davis Straub - 2013/02/12 19:23:14 UTC

Weaklinks often break when you hit the release.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=311934#311934

A weaklink is an integral part of a redundant safety system.

You're thinking of a weak link as a release. Near the ground, where it matters, this thinking can be fatal.

And thus an immediate benefit to the sport of hang gliding and gene pool.

If your release can't be released, you have a choice of hook knife...

In an emergency a hook knife is an even worse release than a weak link. I'm not saying don't fly with one, but don't expect it will ever save your life. Imagine this scenario in a lockout near the ground:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA

None of the assholes who commented on that one when it was originally posted were the least bit capable of imagining that scenario in a lockout near the ground. How come you're holding out such high hopes for Kinsley?

In aero towing, the pilot is holding back the line tension.

I still don't understand you. What does 'holding back the line tension' mean? Are you saying you're pushing out while aerotowing?

All releases have the potential to fail...

Certainly the stuff sold at most flight parks.

And let's not forget:

http://ozreport.com/goodies.php

But I'm not aware of any failures of any of the releases I use.

But...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

My point is that everything has issues. Everything. Period.
Will I fly with a straight pin release? Sure.
Does it have the track record of the curved pins? No.
Does it have limitations that the curved pins don't? Yes, yes it does.
Do they matter? Depends on your situation.
Try fitting a straight pin release with anything but weaklink. (it doesn't quite fit the same) OH! Right. Just might be that we've thought of that eh?

It's really hard to close them over thick ropes without using weak links. Everything has issues. Everything. Period.

Does that mean it's impossible they'll ever fail?

I don't go up with anything that has a possibility of failing. (Well, I still need to dumb down my Four-String - but that's an easy fix.)

Of course not. But given how important releases are I'm going to be sure I equip myself with the best I can get and never use one with any known flaws.

Yeah...

Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.

Right.

Whenever I find something with no known flaws I put it up on eBay and get something with a long track record.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/19 05:35:59 UTC

Yup. The orange string used for tandems at Wallaby. Has been for years. I use it also. 200 lbs.

Any chance this stuff will be allowed at Big Spring this year?

Are you NUTS? No! Of course not!

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

Davis has been at an' around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who. The people who haven't been at an' around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who would immediately start dying in droves.


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?

Davis Straub - 2010/01/28 06:10:17 UTC

I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.

If you've been at an' around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who you can skip hook-in checks and use more dangerous weak links.

Rob Clarkson - 2013/02/19 12:21:30 UTC

Uh you guys know you're posting videos of truck towing? This accident was aero towing. They have pretty much zero in common, particularly in the arguments you are trying to make.

Yeah. And Bob had a red and blue undersurface and Zack's was all blue.

If you want to convince any one that you have any idea that you know what your talking about, these videos are not helping you.

No. The people we want to convince that we have an idea that we know what we're talking about already know we know what we're talking about. Hell, even Zack Marzec would've been immediately aware that we know what we were talking about the instant his Quest Link popped - if he had ever bothered to listen to us.

All those fucking assholes at Quest knew we knew what we were talking about before they got their cell phones out of their pockets. That's why none of them are participating in the discussion.

Speaking for myself, I don't really give much of a rat's ass about anyone still harboring doubt that we know what we're talking about. So you keep on doing exactly what DocSoc...

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


...and Zack Marzec...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...are/were and expecting better results. And if you have better results that's great for you and if you don't I'll be thrilled to get the statistics.

Zack C - 2013/02/19 12:39:41 UTC

So a hook knife is going to be easier/quicker to get to when you're aerotowing than when you're truck towing?

Sure - if he had just thought of it soon enough.

Deltaman - 2013/02/19 13:00:11 UTC

So a release that requires moving a hand off the base tube is going to be safier to operate when you're aerotowing than when you're truck towing?

Sure. In aerotowing you can use your Rooney Link...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

...as an instant hands free release and just fly away. You can do that in truck towing too...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18868
Almost lockout

Ryan Voight - 2010/09/07 02:50:00 UTC

Weak link in truck towing WILL (read: should) still break in a lockout situation... but as everyone has already pointed out, it takes a lot longer because the glider can continue to pull line off the winch.

There is a limit to how fast line can come off the winch though... so the forces still build up, and the weaklink still fails.

...but it takes a lot longer so it's not as convenient. But - don't get me wrong - it's ultimately just as safe.

And, of course, there just aren't any good, reliable, safe aerotow releases that allow you to blow off with both hands on the basetube. If there were, everybody would be using them already.

Zack C - 2013/02/19 13:22:24 UTC

I suspect the argument that will be made about that video is that on an aerotow the weak link may have broken since aerotowing isn't tension controlled.

And when it is don't forget to point out that it probably won't until after the glider is locked out with the tension rapidly spiking to 226 or 260 pounds - depending upon whether the person is a two point loser or a pro toad - and may hit the required figure a second or two before the glider slams in or the instant it does, so the results are likely to be the same.

We also have not gotten confirmation from the pilot as to why he didn't release.

Probably was suffering from the delusion that a compromised glider is best controlled with TWO hands. Somebody advise him to get ahold of a copy of the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden.

My suspicion is that he did not release because reaching for the release would immediately compromise control and cause the glider to bank harder away from the towline, creating an even worse attitude at low altitude. This danger applies to any form of towing.

Not any towing that's taught in any mainstream operation outside of Eastern Europe.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/19 14:46:05 UTC

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink.

One thing I'm not clear on...are they using it instead of 130 lb Greenspot or in conjunction with it? If the latter, is the 200 lb used exclusively for tandems with Greenspot used for all solos, or is the 200 lb used for heavier solos too?

Careful, Zack. If you get these assholes to start talking about actual numbers you could wind up really humiliating them - and NOBODY wants THAT to happen.

Davis Straub - 2013/02/19 03:13:45 UTC

The orange string used for tandems at Wallaby. Has been for years. I use it also. 200 lbs.

So much heavier tandems are using the same stuff as a solo pilot. Since the tandems are towing two (three) point, their weak links will actually break at a lower line tension than Davis's. In either case, the tug's weak link is weaker than the glider's.

There's a lot of room for progress.

Yeah?

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 00:34:14 UTC

YOU are the one arguing with a system that's been in place and has been worked on over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.

I don't THINK SO.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/19 16:10:15 UTC

Your brain is the weaklink!

Speak for yourself, motherfucker.

The Floating Baron - 2013/02/19 03:05:15 UTC

You guys were in the early stage, test pilot days and Jim Rooney wasn't.

How was 130# greenspot chosen to be the one size fits all weaklink for all pilots?
Do you still use it? Nothing stronger considered even for heavier configurations?

I was running the flight park from 2001-2005 so not so long ago and not really the real early stages.

Gee. And here I was thinking that the Adventure AirSports folk were pioneers of aerotowing and that we had so much in the way of equipment, techniques, and procedures to thank them for.

However sometime in 99/00 I learned to AT on my own after watching 2 of my buddies do the same behind a DF.

How did you ever manage to survive without tandem Cone of Safety training from Dr. Trisa Tilletti?

For me it was easy to do. I used the COM bridle...

So you really didn't need any really need a release or weak link because a center of mass bridle is auto stabilizing. If you roll to the left, for example, the tow tension pulls you back under the right/high wing and the glider turns back on track and levels out.

...and a Falcon 1 195. I then got my "official" AT rating a few years later from the late Les Taff when she came to our flight park to train our tug pilots.

And she made sure everyone really understood this weak link issue and used the right material to get something weak enough to break before the pressure of the towline reached a level that compromised the handling of the glider but was strong enough so that it didn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air - so that you were extra safe even if you were using a Hewett Bridle were always able to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13689
eating dirt

Jim Gaar - 2009/09/18 19:23:44 UTC

Hell I've literally shoved the control frame out in front of me to avoid a whack when it got a little ahead of me in a light DW landing, similar to when I've had to slide it in on my belly (did that once after a weaklink brake coming off a launch cart.

...safely fly through a bit of rough air.

By that time and after communications with nearly all other major flight parks at that time we went with 130# greenspot.

Oh. So you didn't actually do any "test piloting" - you just used what everybody else was using 'cause everyone else was using it.

Regardless of these facts...

Oh. So now we're going to start using FACTS. How refreshing.

...the general rules (weaklink calculations) set down by the FAA and sailplane towing was still the calculation that we used as a base to determine if we felt a stronger weaklink was necessary for each and every individual flight.

Wow! The using facts thing sure didn't last very long.

- So what calculations did you use to determine what was going on with these Quest Links which everybody and his dog have been claiming for over two decades blow at 260 pounds?

- On what particular occasions did your calculations determine that you felt you a stronger weak link was necessary for an individual flight?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/944
weak link material question

Jim Gaar - 2008/04/25 16:42:47 UTC

Try the 130 test "kite" string. It's 8 strand poly weave I think. Worked for 5 years flawlessly on solo AT with a 150+ foot poly towline, center of mass open V bridle with primary and secondary releases.600 tows without a hitch.

It's not rocket science folks. 8 inch piece, single loop with opposing single grapevine knots for solo, 16 inch piece with double loop for tandem.

YMMV

You lying son of a bitch.

My/our pre-launch Mantra was (wish I had a dime for every time I said this to a pilot) "Be ready for a weak link break...

Goddam right.

...and IF there is ANY problem RELEASE!!

Right. If there is ANY problem...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike. I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed.

I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed.

The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.

Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.

...RELEASE!!

And remember...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

Too bad one of you guys wasn't there to give Zack Marzec the benefit of your pre-launch Mantra.

My/our pre-launch Mantra was (wish I had a dime for every time I said this to a pilot) "Be ready for a weak link break and IF there is ANY problem RELEASE!!

I'm sure he'd have come out smelling like a rose if only one of you guys had been able to tip him off.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/19 16:45:44 UTC

A few overlooked factors?

Yeah, now that you mention it... I have an overlooked issue of my own.

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/13 18:14:30 UTC

I came up in the early stages of ATing.

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/19 16:10:15 UTC

I was running the flight park from 2001-2005 so not so long ago and not really the real early stages. However sometime in 99/00 I learned to AT on my own after watching 2 of my buddies do the same behind a DF.

I was there twenty-nine years ago (1984) a bit earlier this month when Gérard Thévenot, Jean-Michel Bernasconi, and Mark Airey introduced the Cosmos trike a bit up the road from Kitty Hawk Kites and at Currituck in early August of 1991 when the Dragonfly was being promoed around the country. From that latter point on there hasn't been shit in the way of anything particularly significant the evolution of hang glider aerotowing other than people getting a lot stupider with each passing year.

So don't you EVER again mouth off any crap about you coming up in the early stages of aerotowing - you lying asshole.

Our flight park only used 150 feet of 3/16 poly to tow with behind a 582 Bluehead DF.

- Yeah, you really need a nice stretchy towline to keep from breaking the standard aerotow weak link you're using as the focal point of your safe towing system. Polypro is very useful in helping the weak link meet your expectations of breaking as early as possible in lockout situations but being strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence.

- What? I'da thunk that a TEST PILOT with lotsa righteous stuff would've been so bold as to also give a 250 foot length of Spectra a shot and see just how much good the short poly crap was doing you. But I guess that would've been venturing too far into the realm of the unknown for a really responsible test pilot to risk.

Plenty of stretch...

Yeah, that's always a good thing in a towing operation.

Rodney Nicholson - 1986/11
Ontario Hang Gliding Association

We have recently experienced three similar towing incidents which we feel should be brought to the attention of all who are involved in towing. You are urged not to tow until you are completely satisfied that your system can safely avoid a recurrence of the type of incident described.

As background information, the system being used involved a truck with payout winch, a center of mass bridle system and a weak link of between 150 and 200 lbs.

In the first incident, shortly after power was applied, the tow line snapped about 20 yards from the glider and the end of the tow rope whiplashed back and hit a spectator, who had been standing at the side of the glider, in the eye, inflicting a black eye.

In the second incident, shortly after launch, the weak link broke and the pilot was hit in the mouth by a metal ring in the end of the bridle. Injuries were minor.

In the third and most recent incident, the weak link broke shortly after launch and the end of the tow rope, with metal ring attached, whiplashed back and hit the spotter/winch operator in the eye. At present the chances appear 90% that he will lose the eye completely.

This matter is being given much thought. Could other towing groups please indicate how they handle it?

...especially in the first few tows before the towline settled into a more work hardened amount of stretch.

So did you start breaking your standard aerotow weak links more frequently in turbulence?

And, if so, did your standard aerotow weak links start breaking earlier in lockout situations?

We went around a bit on how long the towline should be. The type of thermals we flew was a major factor (typically smaller "bullet" thermals below 1500 feet AGL).

So, one we only towed with a slower, less powerful tug and second 150 feet of 3/16s polypro.

I remember how Les Taff reacted when she heard that I was a self taught ATer!

Ya know sumpin', Jim... Back in the ACTUAL early years of aerotowing EVERYBODY was self taught - and it was a WAY BETTER era.

She decided that if I could handle her version of "Chase the Ace" she would sign me off.

So you didn't ever hafta bother with a lot of useless tedious THEORY and NUMBERS. Big surprise.

It was one of the most fun tows I ever got. She would climb in a thermal and then dive out the other side, turn hard one way pulling back on the stick and then turn the other way pushing the tug over, slow down quickly to force me to push out to the limit then dive away as fast as she figured I could handle. I was in a WW Falcon 1 195 - hook-in at 210 with a 130# greenspot and a COM bridle with a lanyard release (as in I did not have to take my hand off the control bar). I'll let you do the math...

- 'Cause you very obviously can't.

- OK.

-- A "center of mass" bridle is a fictional concept - but it refers to a Hewett / two to one bridle.

-- You weren't using one because NOBODY was ever stupid enough to use one for aerotowing - especially by that point in history.

-- But if you WERE using one your "standard aerotow weak link would've blown at a towline tension of 264 pounds. The max certified operating weight of the Falcon 195 is 324 pounds. So 0.81 Gs - EXCELLENT point on the legal/safety range.

-- But you were towing on a garden variety two point bridle so your max tow tension was 226 pounds. 0.70 Gs - good job.

She was happy to sign me off but pissed that she could not get me to release or break the weaklink. Made my day!

Well I guess that was just about everything you needed to do to qualify as a competent aerotow pilot. Congratulations!

The closest I ever got to a lockout was at Florida ridge. It was my first time to tow a U2 145...

0.92 Gs one point, 0.80 two point.

AND behind a 912s motor. I sure wasn't use to looking at the top of the tug as I was climbing!!

Indicating you were probably towing one point.

The towline was longer and was Spectra.

That stuff's BRUTAL on standard aerotow weak links. Acts somewhat like an impact wrench on them.

Took me two tows to get up. I was 2/3rds into a full on lockout on my second tow. I hit the release. No waiting for the weaklink to break for me.

- So you're saying that with whatever you were using for a release you were still able to beat a standard aerotow weak link?

- So you were two thirds into a full lockout on a standard aerotow weak link using a spectra towline with no shock absorbance and the weak link STILL HELD?

-- What did that do to your expectation that it break as early as possible in a lockout situation?
-- How much longer do you think it would've taken to blow it?
-- What kind of shape do you think you'd have been in if you HAD waited for it to blow?

- And absolutely no fear whatsoever of what happened to Zack Marzec - who was eighteen pounds lighter than you flying the same fishing line one point for sure - happening to you.

I pinned off and whipped around in a tight right hand turn to go again.

- If you had been at the altitude Bob Buxton was do you think you'd have been in good enough shape after whipping around in a tight right turn to go again?

- How 'bout if you HAD waited for your standard aerotow weak link to increase the safety of the towing operation?

- If you had been using a nonstandard 1.5 G weak link and waited for it to break how much worse off would you have been.

I'm pretty sure the locals were freaked out by the visitor taking 3 tows and nearly locking out but in the end I had a great 3rd tow and...

From this point on I'm no longer interested.

...out flew the regulars on a shitty flying day. All my landings were nice 2 steppers.

Which is really important when you're flying at an aerotow park.

That must have been why they were OK with me doing it again without a serious briefing.

Well, I'm awfully proud of you for qualifying under Florida Ridge's highly demanding safety standards.

Any chance you can get somebody from that crew to comment on Zack Marzec's flight? We could really use the opinions of some highly experienced professionals here.