Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Viktor Moroz - 2013/02/09 22:36:52 UTC

I do not propose to hold a basetube somewhere about knees by one hand. Of course pilot needs to move a basetube slightly forward. It does not take much time. Than pilot may release.

If you have 200+ feet agl you surely can save yourself from any position.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC

I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out.

One thing you have to avoid is: do not lose airspeed at high AoA. It's a general rule.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

Right after emergency release you may catch deep side slide with the following 180 deg. turn (high speed with tail wind), you may catch unwanted wingover... something else maybe. But 200+ feet agl is enough altitude to recover control and land less or more predictable.

Whether it is or isn't, who cares? In this sport a matter of inches can spell the difference between coming out smelling like a rose and getting killed. And as much as everybody tries to convince himself otherwise Mother Nature CAN and DOES throw shit at us that sends our skills and plans down the toilet. So don't EVER compromise on equipment involved in CONTROL. The costs of these compromises can be and occasionally are HORRENDOUS.

William Olive - 2013/02/09 23:51:20 UTC

Isn't it great how well the search function is working at the Oz Report server?

Yep, it is. And it worked for me too. I published these tests a couple of years ago, seems appropriate to re-post here.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12512

Yeah, it's important to know what weak link strengths are but it's WAY more important to understand what a weak link IS, which you don't, and what it can and can't do. And since there's only one thing it CAN do it's pretty easy to identify the things it CAN'T.

I'm making NO assumptions about the accident or its causes...

Great, Billo. Just what we need. More gutless noncommittal motherfuckers like you and Davis who are making NO assumptions about the "accident" or its causes.

...because I just do not know what happened...

So let's just write this one off as an inexplicable freak accident, hold no one accountable for anything, and keep on assuming that everybody's doing everything right because if there were anything better everybody would be doing it already.

...but if we're going to discuss weak links and their relative strengths and merits we should be doing so from a factual basis.

Any comment on the fact that whenever you ask Quest assholes like Paul and Lauren about weak link strengths - front and back end - they are only able to respond in terms of strands of 130 pound Greenspot?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/10 01:55:47 UTC

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/09 23:49:42 UTC

Conversely, I can think of several times on tow where I was glad it did. Usually I was just about to release cause things were going from bad to worse and POP, I was flying myself and things worked out.

If you were just about to release, what difference did it make?

C'mon Zack, it fulfilled it's purpose - which was to increase the safety of the towing operation. It anticipated Kinsley's desire to blow tow and facilitated things for him.

I have the greatest respect of Paul and Mark and their willingness to share what they know.

I have little respect for those that don't share what they know after an accident.

Have anybody in particular...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg


...in mind?

Davis Straub - 2013/02/10 00:29:35 UTC

The 1 G I was using was 75+180 = 255 pounds.

I know. But if you understand the weak link's purpose is to prevent glider overloading...

Let's not forget it's other purposes of preventing injury and damage from dragging and the giving happiness to the asshole who's pulling you.

...it doesn't make sense for your weak link value to be based on pilot weight, as the glider's capacity is independent of pilot weight. The FAA understands this...

Yeah, but they just don't understand hang glider aerotowing at all. And since hang glider aerotowing is also far too complex an issue for your weekend warrior types to have any chance of understanding we really need to listen to the professional pilots who got this sussed out over the course of quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.

...which is why they base weak link ranges on MCOWs.

But since the purpose of a hang gliding weak link is to increase the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD - we base our weak link ranges on a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot because it's a proven system which works.

So Zack, what strength of weaklink do you think Zach should have used so that it wouldn't have broken?

No one knows what the maximum tension he would have seen had he stayed on the line would have been.

Less than either of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm-YPa_Gvdw

But it's a safe bet given the outcome he wouldn't have been worse off with a stronger weak link - and he may have ended up a whole lot better.

Yeah?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

I don't THINK so.

If you want a number...the value he uses for a weak link doesn't matter once it's above the Dragonfly's three strands since the tug's weak link will break first.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC

The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.

But let's take the tug weak link out of the picture since this is hypothetical.

How I wish we could do that in REAL life.

I'd send him up with 300 lb weak links, allowing 600 lbs line tension.

Not at Quest and Florida Ridge. A weak link on ONE end of the bridle puts him at six hundred pounds but if you use TWO weak links that puts him at twelve hundred. And there's just no possible way a weak link under those circumstances can fulfill its purpose of increasing the safety of the towing operation.

We surface tow with and have broken (rarely) 600 lb weak links so I know gliders can take that kind of load.

Ignoring the fact that the gliders are certified to six Gs.

As mentioned, we also know our tug can take that kind of load.

But can we expect all of our tug drivers to be comfortable with that figure - especially the drivers of the Dragonflies which are designed to break at two thirds of that?

But if I'm equipping him, I'd also send him up two (three) point with a release he didn't have to take his hand off the bar to actuate.

Not that actuation was an issue on this one.

Would those things have been enough?

Yes.

Who knows?

I do.

Lift like that is encountered at altitude all the time, the guys at both ends were quite used to that sorta thing, and neither was particularly worried about anything UNTIL the Rooney Link increased the safety of the towing operation.

And we all know from:
- decades of training by highly experienced instructors, tow park operators, and tug drivers
- excellent books on towing from Dennis Pagen, Bill Bryden, and Matt Taber
- Dr. Trisa Tilletti's Higher Education articles in Hang Gliding magazine
that the worst consequence of a Rooney Link blow is a wee bit of inconvenience.

And this glider was NOT locking out and the rate of increase in tow tension would have been and, in fact, WAS...

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.

...mild.

If the standard aerotow weak link had been the 260 pounds most of these assholes are always telling everybody it is instead of the 130 it actually tests to THERE IS NO QUESTION WHATSOEVER that he'd have been able to ride it out just fine.

But if I was in his position I know I'd want to be equipped as described.

Yeah? Well if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.

Feel free to go the tow park that Zack runs.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/10 03:12:28 UTC

If you were just about to release, what difference did it make?

About 1/2 of a second or less

So let's say, for the sake of argument, that the standard aerotow weak link will ALWAYS give you an extra half second's worth of lockout termination / lockout recovery time.

Is that half second worth throwing away the option to stay on tow in even routine situations - let alone a Zack Marzec situation - for every tow you're ever gonna make?

I have little respect for those that don't share what they know after an accident.

Are you implying something by this?

I don't know if he is but I sure will.

Gliders don't just tumble out of the sky in normal soaring for no conditions for no reason - without incompetence and negligence being involved at SEVERAL levels. And in this case it was involved at ALL levels.

- Quest tells us that:

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow.

and yet none of these arrogant off-the-scale STUPID motherfuckers...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

A discussion of the strength of weak links is incomplete without a discussion of the tow bridal. I hear (read) strengths quoted with respect to the combined pilot and glider weight yet this is meaningless info with out knowing what bridal configuration is used and where it is placed in the bridal system. For example, a 200 pound weak link can allow between 200 and 800 pounds of towline force depending on where it is placed within the various popular bridal configurations.

On the tow plane we use 1-1/2 loops (three strands) of 130 pound line. The weak link is placed in the top of a V-bridal which would yield a maximum nominal towline tension of around 780 pounds. However, due to the fact the knots (two are required since there are three strands) are not "buried" the maximum towline tension is greatly reduced. I do not know the exact tow line tension required to break this weak link but the value is somewhat moot since the weak link is not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane and it is not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline.

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/09 12:32:57 UTC

one strand is 130 lb, two strands, (one loop), is more. And I don't think it was Greenspot.

...has the slightest goddam CLUE as to the strength of ANY of the weak links - front or back - that they use and instruct and force everybody else to use.

- They EXPECT these Rooney Links to blow...

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.

...under normal loads when gliders are under full control AND when they're struggling for control (as in Zack Marzec's case, for instance).

- They sell and tow JUNK that doesn't comply with ANY standards, guidelines, recommendations - and Davis recently made the mistake of...

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 17:37:44 UTC

A mouth release would be the best for that, but a barrel release will not do you much good in this situation. You won't get to it in time.

...admitting that it's virtually useless in emergency situations. So it shouldn't be any big surprise why so many people are seriously fucked up and killed by riding out-of-control gliders into the ground still hooked up.

- They call one point "PRO" towing. If that isn't a blatant admission that towing just off the shoulders is more dangerous than two point I sure as hell don't know what is.

- They've participated in NO rational...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

...and civil...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 09:13:01 UTC

Hey Deltaman.
Get fucked.

...discussions of this issue - before or after their incompetence has gotten somebody else killed.

So I'm real sorry but...

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/09 23:49:42 UTC

I have the greatest respect of Paul and Mark and their willingness to share what they know.

..."SHARING" what they know doesn't BEGIN to cut it. They should have all of their ratings permanently revoked for witholding the tiniest SCRAP of potentially relevant information. And anybody who has the "greatest respect" for these fucking assholes for gracing us with the basic facts of this decades-in-the-making clusterfuck has damn close to the absolute least respect from me.

No one knows what the maximum tension he would have seen had he stayed on the line would have been. But it's a safe bet given the outcome he wouldn't have been worse off with a stronger weak link - and he may have ended up a whole lot better.

It's impossible for it to have been any worse.

No it's not. He could've pulled out...

DocSoc - 2007/11/14

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


Weak Link Break, scary cause the wing didn't fly till about 24inches from the ground!

...at about 24 inches - and then everybody could go on pretending we don't have a SERIOUS SYSTEMIC PROBLEM in this sport and we wouldn't be having this productive discussion.

But you have zero foundation to say it would have been any better.

Bullshit. The only foundation anyone needs to say his situation would've been better - for him anyway - is a tiny fraction of the common sense of a ten year old kite flyer.

But I am falling into the feeding the troll trap. Enjoy talking to yourself. Thanks Scare for the ignore button.

And *I* get "pretty torqued up" by ANYBODY who uses the word "troll" in one of these discussions 'cause I've never heard that word used by anybody who wasn't a total asshole. Ditto with respect to people who walk out of discussions before they've been resolved and use ignore buttons.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Gary - 2013/02/10 15:13:40 UTC

I have a question about the "pro tow" bridle the pilot used.

You mean the pro? The dead guy? Yes, do continue.

I switched to this, late this year after years of using a v-bridle with half the tow force applied to the glider. I am getting comfortable with it...

You REALLY shouldn't be. Kinda like you really shouldn't be getting comfortable with using your preflight routines to assure yourself that you're gonna be hooked in when your foot starts moving. People who never get comfortable with compromises in this sport tend to live a lot longer.

...but...

Yeah. I'm really liking that "BUT...".

On my glider...

On ANY glider (although the higher the performance the less pronounced the effect)...

I am pulled forward farther than I used to be, because all the force is now on me.

PRE CISELY.

That means that my arms are extended farther than they used to be at a "normal" tow attitude.

PRE CISELY - and "normal" doesn't need any quotation marks around it because that's EXACTLY what an amateur bridle does for the PILOT. It puts him in NORMAL position with respect to the control frame. And THAT'S a BIGGIE.

This means I physically can't pull in as much as I used to, to correct being high.

So what would you say about Davis based on the following exchange:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22233
Looking for pro-tow release

Casey Cox - 2011/06/15 11:32:49 UTC

Pro-tow is not as safe a tow bridle as a 2 point with aero release. It's just smaller, less drag, shorter bridle that takes a little less time to stow, and looks cooler.

Davis Straub - 2011/06/15 12:50:03 UTC

Do you have any references that back up your opinion here?

I would suggest that this statement is in fact false.

Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC

I've never aerotowed pilot-only, but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.

Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC

Incorrect understanding.

- a) Fucking asshole?
or
- b) Total fucking asshole?

Any thoughts in this area?

Seems to depend a lot on who's OPINION you're getting.

But seriously folks... YES. If Zack had been amateur towing he'd have very probably still popped one of those Davis Link pieces of shit (the towline tension would've been decreased because he'd have been able to keep the glider flying a lot faster/flatter/lower but it would've been feeling a greater percentage of the towline tension due to the bridle apex angle) but my call is that no fuckin' way he'd have had that horrendous stall.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Deltaman - 2013/02/10 16:25:27 UTC

You noticed well.
That's one of the great advantages of the 2 points AT.
Go back to this, that's a lot more safe !

Drawback:
- installation

Benefits:
- trim
- not pulled forward as with a 1 point AT. Position quite similar as the one we know in free flight
- greater amplitude to pull. Higher speed in reserve
- more inertia in handling. Less propensity for overhandling ..and lockout
- Actuation lanyard already in your hand (not a brake bicycle lever on the downtube):
http://www.nanoavionic.com/?page_id=7

http://www.nanoavionic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Get-Off-Instructions-3.jpg

Ya know... The thought occurs to me...

People are RABID about their idiot hang checks and checking their bar clearance before every flight REGARDLESS of the facts that it:
- NEVER changes
- can be way the hell off and it won't matter that much. Nobody's ever been scratched because his bar clearance was way the hell off.

But a lot of these SAME people think absolutely NOTHING about getting on a launch dolly and hooking up through their shoulders only for the most dangerous rolling tow launch available.

That puts them a foot and a half forward of where they're supposed to be relative to the control bar, is a HUGE control authority compromise, and has gotten people seriously fucked up and killed.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2809
hook-in failures

Jim Rooney - 2007/10/31 13:31:04 UTC

I've yet to meet the pilot dumb enough or arrogant enough to fly without a backup loop. Perhaps you'll be the first then?
Thanks, I needed a laugh

Yeah, Jim, make sure you have that backup loop. Wanna fly pro toad with a Rooney Link, inaccessible and nonfunctional Quest releases, and no wheels? NO PROBLEM DUDE!!!

P.S. Who's laughing now, motherfucker?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Swift - 2013/02/21 19:24:50 UTC

Our brains are the weaklinks?

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/19 02:22:35 UTC

I'm still confused about this question that I'm supposed to be answering.

You've already answered that Greenspot was the standard before your time in instruction. This does not answer why or how it was determined to be the standard one size fits all. That was the question.

I thought there was some answer in there having to do with quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows. Might wanna go back and check.

You've wavered somewhat...

SOMEWHAT?

...in saying that some orange line is presently being used in some instances but have also said that you would refuse to tow anyone that might want to use it.

He owns a warehouse full of 130 pound Greenspot.

Btw, if I'm a "newbie" as you're suggesting, why would it matter about any question I have to answer?
I mean, it's not like I've been doing this for a job since 2004 right?

If you feel insulted that it sounded like you had less experience than Blindrodie, then maybe he should explain why he said he was involved in the "early stages" of aerotow and as a "test pilot"? It sure sounded like he was there in the early days to me.

Early days relative to Rooney, a decade into the Dragonfly era of corruption and steady degradation.

Sorry I can't help.

That is true only if you rule out the original question of weaklink values.

Which he and his asshole buddies have been doing for quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.

How many more will crash when a light weaklink breaks at the worst moment?

Who cares? You can just about always write them off as some kind of pilot error - now that the entire hang gliding public has been brainwashed to believe that anybody who breaks ANY weak link - regardless of flying weight, drag, conditions or lack thereof - is an asshole.

Should weaklinks be dumbed down to make up for releases that can't be used when needed...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.

What else are ya gonna do?

...or should they actually be strong enough to do their primary...

ONLY!

...job of protecting the glider from overloading and allowing the pilot to decide when to release?

You're fucked, Jim. A decade's worth of your lies, fraud, and bullying is imploding on you as we speak. And a lot of your fellow assholes are going down with you.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/10 17:51:14 UTC

George.

His name is Gary. And Zach's name is Zack.

What gider are you flying? How much VG to you typically use?

You can add a bit more VG, which helps some, but not too much as that can cause problems getting out of the cart (at least for me). You are right that "trim" is a bit further forward than using the release that is attached to the glider. I have actually found that I can get down if I am high relative to the tug on "pro-tow" better than the traditional attachment, not sure why, but it's particularly noticeable if you are not pointing directly at the tug.

You can't.

That's in my T2. I rented a Laminar that was trimmed a bit different and I was straight armed the whole tow and hand to use my finger tips to pull in the bar far enough to stay where I needed to be relative to the tug.

Good thing you weren't blasted up by a thermal until your Rooney Link popped, huh?

Which brings up one other point, on tow sometime people think they are pulling in when in fact they are doing a push up on the bar. It's important to make sure you are actually pulling the bar in vs pushing down on it.

This effect is more pronounced as you move down the glider performance curve. e.g. a lot more bar pressure on a falcon than a T2.

Yes.

Last question would be why did you switch? Many people find a topless glider to be much easier to "pro-tow" and there is a bit less draggy stuff. On the other hand, the drag penalty is not that much and on a lower performance glider, the bar pressure can be a lot less with the conventional bicycle brake or Lookout type release.

What an atrocity that that crap ever became "conventional".

Gary - 2013/02/10 18:22:11 UTC

I have a laminar, but am now spending most of my time on a T2. For me the T2 is easier handling in all aspects, flying more like the U2 I had a few years ago. At our site, most of the topless fliers are towing at closer to 3/4 VG than 1/2 VG, on tow. Bar pressure is quite moderate at that setting. I believe the bar on the T2 lowers (relative to pilots body) as the VG is increased, so this does exacerbate the issue.

I quite get what you are saying about the extreme of this being extended arms with the bar seeming to be at finger tips. I have seen some experienced pilots 'get high' and not be able to recover, either pinning off or breaking a link.

What's the worst thing you can imagine happening in such a scenario?

My position on the T2 is not that extreme, but does prompt me to get some opinions on the subject.

I recommend getting an opinion from Davis. He's totally excellent at putting people's minds to rest.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Andrew Vanis - 2013/02/11 02:17:24 UTC

Nice if starting from a cart.

Why would ANYONE aerotow and NOT start from a cart? How many people ACTUALLY DO that? And why should we really care what happens to them?

However if you drop the rope or if foot launching the flinging rope may be an issue.

Yeah, ya know what?

There's a lot of stupid shit you can do in aerotow launches that can become "issues". And since a lot of it can ruin your day or kill you you need to make damn sure none of it happens. But it really ain't all that tough to pull things off correctly every time.

That is one place the brake handle may be better - you always know where it is.

Goddam right you do. Big draggy piece of shit. I almost blew lunch the first time I saw a Wallaby Release.

a in-line brake lever may be best of both world. brake handle is always in the same place and the rope can come out the backside of the lever. Etiher one can release.

Yech. Leave Joe's release the hell alone. It's about the best you're gonna be able to do with a slap-on.

AND WHY THE HELL CAN'T WE GET THE *USELESS* *FUCKING* *GODDAM* MANUFACTURERS TO DO THE JOB RIGHT AND BUILD THEM IN?!

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Deltaman - 2013/02/11 07:32:30 UTC

Take off with a cart is everytime safier.
- Pitch & roll stabilized
- lanyard in your hand at each steps of the flight
- you can stop the take off during the roll if you need
- take off with a good speed in reserve.
- no matter with the wind if it's decreasing or inverting
- no risk of failure to hook-in (except legs loops)
- no physical stress
- no hands moving from side to the controlbar

Do it everytime. So no matter with a lanyard already in your hand.

CAUTION with the brake lever for 2 things:
- it can turn around the downtube, it already happened
- by setting it on the basebar you do a possibly tight loop with the wire that can increase dramatically the actuation effort at high load.

Here come back with Zack (with a k) sad story and rational "speculation"

Careful. The Davis Show isn't much into rational.

He crossed a thermal and the glider pitched up and climbed. He was pulling hard.
but the weak <0.8G illegal weaklink blew.
The load factor decreased brutally and the glider lost lot of energy.
He found himself in zero gravity and was a little surprised
Therefore, he released (wrongly) the bar a little and stopped pulling thoroughly.

I doubt it. I'd bet the farm that he had the bar stuffed the whole time.

The glider, free from some pull effort, pitched up as it was already in a climb with important Pitch angle !
So it stopped quickly and tumbled.

You could blame the pitch instability of hanggliders
you could blame the pilot attitude
you could blame the freaks in the air
..but don't forget to blame weak weaklink used in every ranches !

We can't blame the weak link 'cause that's the focal point of our safe towing systems and it's used in every ranches so you know it's being done right.

Mine is 450lb-tested: 1.5G of the MAXIMUM certificated operating weight of my glider (not my own weight) as a weaklink can protect my glider only.
That's twice the one used by Mark.

You must mean Zack. And Zack was flying one point so he could've had a much as 260. So I'd call it 1.73 times what Zack had.

I use a reliable mouth release (not a bent pin) and can actuate at the miliseconde when I want and without loosing any control.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 09:13:01 UTC

Hey Deltaman.
Get fucked.

That's about the most substantive thing you're gonna contribute to this discussion, Jim - as far as anything that's gonna benefit you anyway.

Bart Weghorst - 2013/02/11 13:14:30 UTC

Ditto

Whoa, Bent-Pin Bart. I never saw THAT coming.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Gary - 2013/02/11 13:45:39 UTC

Well, was moving to the pro-tow worth it, to have a cleaner look, I'm not sure.

- For you or Zack Marzec?
- It's doesn't just LOOK cleaner - it IS cleaner. But if you'd build the fuckin' two point into the glider you could have something that:
-- is damn near as clean
-- trims you safely
-- let's you blow tow with:
--- both hands on the basetube
--- a lot of mechanical advantage
--- one hundred percent reliability

I have a hand brake handle release and I do like that I know where it is every time.

How easily pleased you are.

I have another with a loop for the basetube, and I like it less, because I am not happy with the feeling that I can't move my hand while on tow.

- You should like it less because it's even more dangerous and unreliable than the brake lever crap.
- So just how much do you need to move your hand on tow anyway?

I may agree with Andrew about being worried about dropping the 'monkey fist' at a critical time.

- Why don't you talk to people who know what they're doing and talking about instead of Andrew?

- Andrew's full o' shit. Dropping the Monkey's Fist is easily and one hundred percent preventable.

- Critical times on aerotow are extremely rare. That's how come you can get away with using Industry Standard crap without killing two or three people a weekend. The chances of you losing the lanyard at a critical time are about the same as being hit by an asteroid (although that hasn't been all that great a comparison since Friday).

Not quite sure what is meant by an inline brake??

Neither is he. Stop listening to him and start listening to Antoine.

I have been thinking about a mouth release.

People have been THINKING about them for decades. But only a tiny handful of people in the West have been DOING ANYTHING about them. Ever wonder why the industry has been so negligent in making them available?

Is the one mentioned here available somewhere.

If it's not then what's stopping you from putting something together yourself? Have you thought about the price Bob Buxton is paying for not having something that could be made to work when he needed it?

How often used, etc...
thanks

Who the fuck cares?

This piece of crap:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

has been "used" zillions of times without killing anybody. It should never have been permitted to go up in the first place and, failing that, it should've been universally grounded the first time...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

...anybody had the slightest problem with it.

Don't look at how often something's been used - look at what it can do, see if there's any way it can fail, and read the goddam performance test data. And if it doesn't have any performance test data - like ALL of the Industry Standard junk doesn't - then stay the hell away from it.