Weak links

[Steve Davy]

Thanks, Bill, for advertising on the Davis show forum that you too are an incompetent shithead.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Freedomspyder - 2013/02/28 17:10:25 UTC

Bill Cummings - 2013/02/28 06:11:37 UTC

When the pilot lost the towline it had the nose too high and due to that it climbed into a stall. My weaklinks would not allow me to climb that fast and develop into a stall like that.

To me, your description sounds similiar to Zack's final flight. I had to read carefully to be sure what flight you were referring to.

I didn't think reading carefully was something that was allowed on The Davis Show. Leads to too much critical thinking and discord.

I haven't read about that video.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post1049.html#p1049
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26134
Whipstall almost tumble
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24305
Reflex bridles at work

What do you mean by 'lost the towline"?

I think that when somebody uses the word "lost" he means an unintentional and undesired separation from something of some value to him.

Where in that flight do you think the weaklink (assuming he had one) should have broken?

Hey!!!

Tad Eareckson - 2011/12/26 23:55:36 UTC

He separates from the cart at 0:08 and from the towline - when he attempts to go to Stage 2 - at 0:14. Pick a number between eight and fourteen when you think it would've been a really good time for him to have blown off of tow - voluntarily using his release, or upon the determination of his Infallible Weak Link. (Shithead.)

Quit plagiarizing my stuff!!!

Oh well, it's for a good cause, you're going after Bill, so take whatever you want.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/28 13:56:13 UTC

Tormod Helgesen - 2013/02/28 05:51:13 UTC

You cited (and contradicted yourself) the claim yourself in the same post. "you can't rely on a weak link to save you" means that it might not break.

No, it means that when it does break...

I think you should've italicized "when" as well.

...you could be in an attitude from which you don't have altitude to recover.

Or... You could be at an attitude which can put you into a whipstall, tailslide, and tumble such that there's no such thing as an altitude from which you can recover - without getting a parachute to open anyway.

I thought this was pretty much universally accepted...

Davis Straub - 2013/02/15 02:04:29 UTC

Zack C - 2013/02/15 01:53:11 UTC

My only point in posting the video was to demonstrate that weak links cannot prevent attitudes that could be catastrophic near the ground.

I can't imagine anyone arguing that they would.

The weak link will still break at some point.

Which leads one to wonder a bit about why Davis has been so rabid about shoving 130 pound Greenspot down everyone's throat for the past decade and a half or so.

You guys have an almost religious belief that staying on tow is better than a weaklink break...

I've never said that.

It doesn't matter. On the Jack, Davis, and Bob Shows you're responsible for whatever anybody feels like saying you said.

It depends on the circumstance.

Then wouldn't you need a human to evaluate the circumstances, make a decision about what the best response is, and furnish him with some kind of equipment with which to execute his decisions?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7066
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Peter Birren - 2009/05/10 01:33:57 UTC

If you want a truly foolproof release, it's got to be one that eliminates the pilot from the equation with a release that operates automatically.

I'm afraid I'm really not seeing anything like that ever happening.

Zack C - 2013/02/18 02:37:19 UTC

Staying on the line is usually not better when things are getting ugly. But the decision to stay on the line or terminate the tow should be the pilot's.

Which...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

...pilot?

There are times when a tow termination is the worst thing that can happen.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

Bill Cummings - 2013/02/28 06:11:37 UTC

What is obvious to me is that the pilot was using a very strong weaklink to be able to climb so fast with the keel more than 30 degrees to the horizon...

I guess Zack M was also using a very strong weak link since it allowed his high pitch attitude and climb rate.

He probably accidentally doubled his fishing line.

Tom Bushell - 1985/02
Halifax

Also, they may have been using a doubled weak link (4 strands of #18 nylon twine) - Tim had flown with a doubled weak link on previous occasions. He was unsure what they had been using when I quizzed him on this point.

That was always a popular dodge of Donnell's and his Disciples' when the focal point of his safe towing system didn't perform in accordance with Skyting Theory and somebody got vegged.

Once again, a weak link cannot prevent dangerous attitudes.

Oh yeah? Well if you don't want to listen to the folks who actually know what they're talking about, go ahead. Feel free to read the book on hang glider towing that Zack wrote.

You cannot expect any weak link, no matter how light, to break before a glider's angle of attack gets excessively high. Tension will eventually spike, but by the time it does, a weak link break could be the worst thing that could happen.

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus#t=50s

Bill Cummings - 2013/02/15 19:59:49 UTC

ZC, You're right! I'm wrong! Your mind is made up! Good luck with your strong weak links! LATERS!

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/09 02:31:37 UTC

The turbulance level was strong, among the strongest thermal activity I've felt leaving the field. I've encountered stronger mechanical mixing, but the vertical velocity this time was very strong.

So it was a real heavy duty thermal but:
- it wasn't anything off the scale, even the strongest, or anything that caused you particular alarm
- the turbulence wasn't any big issue and it was basically just strong, smooth, steady lift

So it's pretty obvious that you didn't have any noteworthy issues on any of those other occasions.

So how come somebody died on this one?

And it's also pretty obvious that, if you continue towing at the rate you have been, you're gonna encounter situations like this again.

So what - if anything - are you gonna do differently in - or, preferably, BEFORE - future encounters?

Were the people with whom you had no noteworthy problems two pointers, pro toads, both?

It's almost a no brainer that the people you were towing were using the 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak links that Quest has been perfecting for twenty years.

On Zack's last flight...

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.

...you EXPECTED it to blow and it would've been a miracle if it had survived in any of your previous similar encounters.

Other operations are using 200 - and, so far, you've killed more people with the 130 than the rest of them put together. So are ya gonna continue pulling 130 because of its huge track record? Or are you thinking it might be a good idea to try doing something different to get different results?

[Zack C]

I've been having an off-line discussion with Paul Edwards to address some questions of his resulting from the recent Zack M discussions. He's on board with using a stronger weak link, a better release, and putting weak links on his shoulders (he wasn't using any before). I found a portion of our exchange to be of particular interest:

PE: It may interest you to know that Sean, the guy who runs the aerotow program, has put me on 200lb test weak link line. I didn't ask him why at the time.

ZC: That is interesting. Was that from the beginning, or after you had been towing a while?

PE: Sean put me on the 200lb weak link quite spontaneously. I was setting up to tow and it was a quiet day. I knew it had been a few flights since I changed my weak link but I couldn't recall how to tie one, so I carried my greenspot 130 over to Sean and asked if he could show me the knot. He asked me how much I weigh and I told him (200lb). He said "Here, you should use this" and busted out the 200lb test line. He tied one for me and gave me a couple feet of extra to make my own later.

That happened a year ago...he thinks he's only towed once or twice since then.

At any rate, this is progress from when I learned there. I wonder what caused the shift in thinking and if it's just Sean making these recommendations.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

I've been having an off-line discussion with Paul Edwards...

Good. As I've said several times before, that one is savable and worth saving. (I'd LOVE to get him over here.)

...to address some questions of his resulting from the recent Zack M discussions.

And hopefully he's getting it and can start weighing in and adding to our not inconsiderable momentum.

He's on board with using a stronger weak link...

Hard to imagine anybody with a double digit IQ or better NOT being on board within twenty-four hours of Zack Marzec's "freak accident".

...a better release...

Make him buy one of Joe's. (Too bad the new and improved GT Manufacturing / Lockout Mountain Flight Park aerotow release...

The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 130-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link.

...was designed to be used with 130 and, at this time, is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link. It'll be very interesting to see how Matt is going to explain how it was actually designed to be used with 200 and it's OK to do it now at this Post Marzec time.)

...and putting weak links on his shoulders (he wasn't using any before).

- Jesus H. Christ.
- He's also gonna need something on his shoulders that'll handle the capacity.

It may interest you to know that Sean, the guy who runs the aerotow program, has put me on 200lb test weak link line. I didn't ask him why at the time.

Wow. The focal point of a safe towing system whose...

Quest Air

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow.

...strength is crucial to a safe tow. And all the sudden we're upping it 54 percent without anyone knowing or being told why.

Sean put me on the 200lb weak link quite spontaneously.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

I knew it had been a few flights since I changed my weak link but I couldn't recall how to tie one, so I carried my greenspot 130 over to Sean and asked if he could show me the knot.

The special Lookout Wrap and Tie installation which brings the strength up to 260 pounds.

He asked me how much I weigh and I told him (200lb).

Instead of asking him what glider he's flying.

He tied one for me and gave me a couple feet of extra to make my own later.

I wonder if he used the special Lookout Wrap and Tie installation which brings it up to 400 direct / 696 towline or used the Fisherman's Knot / Double Lark's Head which would make it sixty pounds lighter than a properly installed length of 130.

That happened a year ago...he thinks he's only towed once or twice since then.

- On what percentage of those flights did he pop off?
- Counting the scooter tow on which Mitch rearranged his face - despite a really excellent focus of a safe towing system?

I wonder what caused the shift in thinking and if it's just Sean making these recommendations.

This whole industry has FINALLY started to understand the insanity of using a piece of fishing line which pops six times in a row at a competition to which people have flocked from the world over in light morning air and are very quietly moving up to 200.

We need to get everyone on 250.

With everyone flying 200 the Dragonfly people are gonna get tired of losing towlines every time there's a high altitude lockout - especially if we accidentally drop them where they're a real pain in the ass to retrieve.

So they'll hafta go back to a double loop on their end. Then they'll start losing the towline just half the time and also resume snapping tow masts.

And if we use 250 they're gonna get tired of snapping tow masts and fix that problem too.

And maybe about five years or so after that the assholes trying to use polypro to prevent the focal point of the safe towing system from doing its job quite so effectively will figure out that Spectra doesn't act somewhat like an impact wrench on 250 as much as it did on 130.

And then we can FINALLY - after close to three decades worth of this bullshit - start playing the game right.

At any rate, this is progress from when I learned there.

The progress I thought I could help make four years ago by driving down there and talking to that motherfucker - and was rewarded by him pissing all over me and doing the precise opposite.

There's no fuckin' way a lot of very deserving high level assholes aren't gonna have their reputations very deservedly destroyed on this one. Mike Robertson, Pagen, Moyes, Bobby, Davis, Rooney, Quest, Matt, Malcolm, Wills Wing, Trisa... THANK GAWD they published that crap in the magazine seven months before it got an uber popular cool guy snuffed - from just about dead center in the Cone of Safety. I would so hate to be them right now.

Keep pouring on the heat.

[Zack C]

(I'd LOVE to get him over here.)

I'm not going to push him to join but he knows about the site.

Make him buy one of Joe's.

He knows it's what I use and I told him about the limitations of other models. He hasn't had problems with his Lookout model but doesn't like the fact it hasn't been tested to higher loads.

...and putting weak links on his shoulders (he wasn't using any before).

- Jesus H. Christ.

This is normal for Lookout. When I was learning there, at least, no one ever mentioned bridle wraps or told me to use a shoulder weak link. The only reason I had one when I experienced a wrap was I took an earlier trip to Wallaby where it was required.

He's also gonna need something on his shoulders that'll handle the capacity.

I told him (quoting Bart and linking to your pictures), but I don't know what alternatives are available commercially.

(I cannot believe people are still using those things after Bart's incident...especially people like Davis relying solely on them while using stronger weak links.)

The special Lookout Wrap and Tie installation which brings the strength up to 260 pounds.

They do say in their release documentation that "when tied properly this line breaks consistently at 130 lbs" (260 towline). You're probably referring to Tracy and Lisa's article, but Lookout's statements are much closer to reality (hopefully others see the obvious discrepancy...).

...from just about dead center in the Cone of Safety.

Mark did say Zack was "high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke."

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

I'm not going to push him to join but he knows about the site.

- We don't need to push anybody. Anybody we'd need to push wouldn't do us any good anyway.
- We've probably already got all the people of the sort we wanna get.
- Thanks primarily to our enemies, we've had lotsa really great advertising out in the mainstream. Everybody knows who and where we are.
- Just about the only people we should even bother contacting are the new kids who sense something isn't right and are about to be devoured.

He knows it's what I use and I told him about the limitations of other models. He hasn't had problems with his Lookout model but doesn't like the fact it hasn't been tested to higher loads.

It HAS been tested to higher loads, and does pretty well - sometimes.

When I was learning there, at least, no one ever mentioned bridle wraps or told me to use a shoulder weak link.

Matt Taber - 2009/05/14 21:37:55 UTC

My experience with bridle wrapping is with polypropylene and with large eyes in the ends -- with small eyes in the ends and spectra we have had no issues of bridle wrapping -- I thought everyone had gotten away from the poly rope.

The only reason I had one when I experienced a wrap was I took an earlier trip to Wallaby where it was required.

Really great...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC

Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.

It's not going to be nice because it's an affront to ego... which goes over like a lead balloon, but again... too bad, it's the truth.

See, the "everyone's opinion is valid" stuff is for the birds.
No. We don't consider everyone's opinion on these topics.

You're late to the game. Very late.
We've been at this a long freaking time. You haven't.
All these "ideas" that people propose, we've already been through... a number of times.

Don't you think that the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF THAT?

We did.
A long time ago.
Not only have we thought this stuff through seven different ways to sunday, we've tested a bunch of this shit too. And some of it's the stuff that you haven't even gotten around to realizing yet.

It's not cuz we're somehow smarter... we're not.
It's cuz you're LATE!!!
We've just had tons more time at this.

...the way everybody's worked everything out to points of perfection and all arrived on the same page.

I told him (quoting Bart and linking to your pictures), but I don't know what alternatives are available commercially.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8322228469/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8323290260/

(I cannot believe people are still using those things after Bart's incident...especially people like Davis relying solely on them while using stronger weak links.)

DUDE!!! I HADN'T EVEN THOUGHT OF THAT!!! Damn, that would be PERFECT!

You're probably referring to Tracy and Lisa's article, but Lookout's statements are much closer to reality (hopefully others see the obvious discrepancy...).

- But I'm almost certain that "Wrap and Tie" bullshit originated at Lockout.
- I have no doubt whatsoever that Matt's a big and perpetual force behind EVERYTHING that the Towing Committee does and doesn't do.
- And you notice that Lookout was one of scores of aerotow operations which published no critical commentary on that rot.

Mark did say Zack was "high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke."

But he STARTED OFF dead center and level. And the only people who can lock out or get into any kind of trouble whatsoever are the ones who foolishly and deliberately wander way left, right, up, down because they got their ratings from cheap solo-only operations and didn't know any better.

[Tad Eareckson]

Of course I didn't just fail to think of that with respect to Davis, I failed to think about that with respect to ALL those pro toads. It wasn't until I started thinking about the setup of someone I think is probably be a GOOD thing for the gene pool that my brain started kicking in.

A bent pin release requires a pull of a bit over 32 pounds under a direct load of 200 (while a straight pin you can do at just under ten (AND you can actually get a useable grip on the barrel).

Like you say, it's freakin' ASTOUNDING that people have kept them in the air after...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

...Bart and...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...Lauren (who was only dealing with 29 percent towline while towline was limited to whatever the Dragonfly could do (400 max)), but we've gotta remember what we're dealing with:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.

But now we're gonna have a lot of monkeys on a lot of typewriters and eventually somebody with half a brain or better is gonna get scared shitless at a high enough altitude to be able to start thinking about grade school science and what the people who were just proven to be right about Rooney Links have been saying about some of Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's other brilliant ideas.

[Steve Davy]

I imagine it's going to be a bit of a shock to your system, Paul, if/when you realize just how totally screwed up this sport has become.