Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30912
Death at Quest Air

Gerry Grossnegger - 2013/02/03 21:21:49 UTC

What happened?

Another idiot got killed at another shoddy sleazy incompetent tow operation which is run along the lines of the crap you have in your piece of shit Canadian towing manual.

David Williamson - 2013/02/03 22:16:21 UTC

Who Knows?

Nobody, David.

Whenever a popular hotshot glider jockey is killed for some stupid and blindingly obvious reasons at a highly reputable aerotow operation which is guilty of criminal negligence with every glider it pulls and keeps on getting away with shit because of the totally excellent job USHGA has done in shielding itself and all of its money makers from the slightest vestiges of accountability NOBODY EVER KNOWS.

It's always just some freak accident and we'll probably never really understand what happened and why.

Things can happen very quickly on the tow.

This didn't happen ON TOW, David. On tow everything was going OK.

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

This happened THE INSTANT the glider came OFF TOW. Do try to think about some of the implications of that.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30912
Death at Quest Air

Gerry Grossnegger - 2013/02/03 21:21:49 UTC

What happened?

Lemme elaborate a bit - you goddam pinbrained waste o' space...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6916
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Gerry Grossnegger - 2009/02/28 14:18:10 UTC

You may find some useful stuff here:
http://hpac.ca/tow/HPAC_Tow_Manual.asp
The aerotow section is still pretty minimal.

Tad Eareckson - 2009/03/02 01:39:27 UTC

Gerry,

Thanks much for that link. I had visited it many times before and it should have occurred to me to give it a good re-read in the process of tackling this USHPA project.

That is probably the best piece of work of its kind I've seen on these issues and exactly the sort of thing I was envisioning for an expanded version of the USHPA Aerotowing Guidelines.

It does however (forgive me) have its share of mistakes and I have posted some corrections, suggestions, revisions in the Files section in a pdf upload.

Most of the information in the original document is very good, lotsa stuff is wrong, a little bit is deadly wrong.

http://hpac.ca/tow/HPAC_Tow_Manual.asp

This manual was compiled and edited by Gerry "Scare" Grossnegger and the Manitoba Hang Gliding Association, where the latest version of this manual may be viewed online, or downloaded for offline viewing. Comments and suggestions for improvements are welcome.

3.4.1 - Weak Link Specifications For Hang Gliders

Aerotowing operations should use weak links which will break at a tow force of 80% to 100% of the total towed weight (usually 90-114 kg or 200-250 lb).

Tandem operations should use weak links of 100% or less of the towed weight for surface towing, usually approximately 175-180 kg (385-400 lb), and 80% or less for aerotowing.

Do you find it just a little bit odd that the only possible way you can legally aerotow tandem in the US under your idiot Canadian guidelines is either to weigh just the right amount to max out your glider or ballast up until you do and then use a weak link which puts you at EXACTLY 0.80 Gs?

And note that Zack Marzec was flying with a weak link almost EXACTLY 1.00 times his flying weight and its totally unnecessary vaporization was what dumped him into a tumble.

I'd be happy if you (or anyone) would give it a skim and - if you want - would also be happy to assist with a revision (as long as I'm in that mode anyway).

Gerry Grossnegger - 2009/0304 17:06:11 UTC

HPAC Towing Procedures manual

Most of the information in the original document is very good, lotsa stuff is wrong, a little bit is deadly wrong.

Tell me which!!! I'll happily correct anything that needs it, and be the first one to admit that I don't know everything.

The aerotow section (that's what you're interested in right now, right?) is pretty thin. I was hoping for input from some of the big flight parks that do thousands every year, to record what their best practices are, and what cautions.

You just can't do much better than Quest, Gerry. They've got a track record that just keeps on getting longer every day weather permits.

It hasn't been edited in quite a while. Not a lot of free time for me, and not a lot of new input from anyone else. Which mistake were you looking for?

Tad Eareckson - 2009/03/04 23:20:00 UTC

...and be the first one to admit that I don't know everything.

I despise people who know everything. I refer to them as "pilots".

I adore people who know nothing. I refer to them as "scientists".

I was hoping for input from some of the big flight parks that do thousands every year, to record what their best practices are, and what cautions.

Proceed with caution here. These places are generally infested with pilots (see above) and when one does thousands of tows each year based upon some flawed initial assumptions one gets REALLY GOOD at doing things wrong through constant reinforcement.

Hang gliding aerotowing is in many regards a broke system and these places are more the problem than the solution. Even with respect to the totally inadequate parameters with which we are supposed to be complying to justify our FAA Exemption, I could pick up the phone and - if I got the right bastard on the line - have any one of them shut down. And the really maddening thing is that everybody would be spending LESS money AND having better experiences doing it right.

If you wanna see how to do things right look to sailplaning. If you must get your info from a hang gliding operation...

http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/

THESE GUYS have their shit together - but hardly anyone out there gets what they're saying.

Gerry Grossnegger - 2009/03/04 22:36:27 UTC

Proceed with caution here. These places are generally infested with pilots (see above) and when one does thousands of tows each year based upon some flawed initial assumptions one gets REALLY GOOD at doing things wrong through constant reinforcement.

Good point. They must get away with it though.

Tad Eareckson - 2009/03/05 12:49:00 UTC

EXACTLY! They "get away with it". The potentially lethal malfunctions that demand immediate groundings in REAL aviation almost always happen up high where they don't matter and/or are dealt with by system redundancies. And on the rare occasion when someone gets mangled it's pretty easy to blame everything on glider pilot error (especially if he dies) without looking any deeper.

Not so easy this time, though. Now it's a "freak accident" and that's a good bit more difficult to pull off because none of these asshole skygods likes the idea that he too can be snuffed in a "freak accident".

And when half G weak links go off like popcorn... Well, that's just the way it's supposed to be 'cause it's always been like that. Three months ago the sailplane equipment dealer told me THEY break weak links at a rate of about one per thousand tows. No freakin' way they would - or could - tolerate the crap we do.

And I NEVER HEARD BACK from Davis's buddy to the north. And...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24691
Landing on wheels

Gerry Grossnegger - 2011/08/11 02:51:50 UTC

That's two or three times the strength you should be using! You'd better check that.

General guidelines is to use a "1G" weak link, with a breaking strength roughly equal to your all-up weight - you, glider, harness, etc.

When we platform tow in rough air, and the consequences of a weak-link break aren't great, we go as far as a 300 pound weak link. (Yeah, I know, bad!) But not double that!

Zack C - 2011/08/13 03:23:51 UTC

Just about all of us here in Houston use 600 pound weak links.

The purpose of the weak link is to prevent structural failure of the glider. A glider is not in danger of failing with a 600 pound weak link. The group here has been towing with these for decades and has never seen a structural failure.

Why is a 1 G weak link recommended?

We use stronger mainly because a weak link break at the wrong time can cause a stall near the ground.

...you never bothered to respond to or even acknowledge what Zack had said.

And a month ago this afternoon we HAD a weak link break at the wrong/right time and it DID cause a stall near the ground... And BOY *WHAT* A STALL it caused!

And STILL none of your neurons seem to be firing, Gerry. And STILL we're looking at the 2005/01/29 edition of your piece of shit towing manual with the same eighty to one hundred percent flying weight range for aerotowed solos and eighty percent cap on tandems.

All this CRAP:

The system must include a weak link which is infallible and will automatically release the glider from the tow line whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limits of safe operation.

Static line boat towing is not recommended due to the severe change in line tension at the glider when the tow line lifts out of the water, requiring a very strong weak link, and the difficulties in quickly and accurately adjusting the boat's speed.

Weak links should be constructed to limit the tow rope tension to a certain percentage of the total weight being towed, as outlined below. This includes the pilot, glider, harness, other equipment, and tandem student, if any.

The weak link should break before the tow force becomes uncomfortable or unmanageable. A weak link should break quickly in the event the glider impacts the ground to prevent further injury by being dragged by the tow vehicle.

Each pilot should have his own weak link of appropriate strength.

Weak Link Specifications For Hang Gliders

Recommended breaking load of a weak link for surface-based towing is from 100% to 120% of the towed weight. This will usually be approximately 90-135 kg (200-300 lb) for solo operations.

Experienced pilots flying in turbulent conditions may prefer weak links at the higher end of the range, while less experienced pilots and students (at the discretion of their instructor) should be at or below the low end of that range. A single loop (two strands) of #205 leech line should be adequate for solo flights, and three strands should be good for tandem flights.

Four strands of 130 lb test braided dacron kite string (a single loop folded through the tow line loop with sides on or through the release, resulting in an actual breaking strength of about 230 lb), is sufficient for average solo pilots. 150 lb test can be used for tandem flights and larger pilots. The total strength of the weak link does not equal the sum of the strengths of the individual strands because of the effects of the rings.

Aerotowing operations should use weak links which will break at a tow force of 80% to 100% of the total towed weight (usually 90-114 kg or 200-250 lb). Since two-point bridles are usually used, if the weak link is at one end of the bridle rather than at the end of the tow rope, the weak link itself must break at less than half of the maximum allowable tow force. A single loop of 60 kg (130 lb) braided fishing line, or a single loop of #205 leech line slightly weakened by an extra overhand knot, should give an acceptable 55 kg (120 lb) breaking strength, limiting the tow force to 109 kg (240 lb).

Tandem operations should use weak links of 100% or less of the towed weight for surface towing, usually approximately 175-180 kg (385-400 lb), and 80% or less for aerotowing.

Weak Link Specifications For Paragliders

Recommended breaking load is 75% or less of the towed weight.

still in place after a little over eight years and gawd knows how many crashes and injuries.

And NOWHERE in this piece of shit document do you ONCE MENTION the ACTUAL PURPOSE of a weak link... Which is...

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

TO PROTECT YOUR AIRCRAFT AGAINST OVERLOADING.

Rot in hell, motherfucker.

[Tad Eareckson]

Excerpts from the HPAC Towing Procedures Manual (Gerry Grossnegger - 2005/01/09) illustrating how the weak link, whose function is to:

...automatically release the glider from the tow line whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limits of safe operation...

increases the safety of the towing operation:

- emergency landing zones (for use should a weak link break, engine failure or release failure occur).

Because polypropylene rope can be elastic, the tow bridle should be made from a pre-stretched rope or webbing to prevent the tow rope from whipping back in the event of a weak link or rope break.

The benefit of this type of release is its light weight and soft construction materials, which minimize the likelihood of injury should the release whip back and strike the pilot in the event of a weak link or line break.

Bridles should be constructed from webbing, low stretch cord such as Spectra or Dacron, or pre-stretched braided rope. This is necessary to avoid injury to the pilot in the event of a weak link break or release under tension. A bridle that can stretch under tow will spring back toward the pilot if the load is suddenly released, along with the release and anything attached to the bridle.

While towing, protective eye-wear should be worn by the pilot, and by the student during tandem flights. This is to prevent injury in the event of a rope or weak link break, or impaired vision from flying debris or insects. For payout systems, any crew not in an enclosed cab should wear eye protection, and helmets for payout systems mounted on trailers.

Slack rope launches must be avoided. A shock load can break the weak link on launch.

Pilots must concentrate on keeping the wings level and balanced, and holding an appropriate angle of attack. Too little angle of attack can lead to a "nose in", and too high an angle of attack may quickly lead to a weak link break, stalling, "plowing" or "parachuting"...

5.8 - Emergency Procedures

5.8.1 - Line and Weak Link Breaks

Due to the high angle of attack during surface-based towing, a line break will cause a hang glider to pitch up quickly, or a paraglider to pitch-over, due to the rapid loss in tow tension. The pilot must act quickly to maintain control of the glider.

When a weak link or line break occurs at low level, the pilot should immediately pull in to attain sufficient airspeed, then land in the direction of the tow. Only when ample height is available should the pilot attempt to return to the launch area to land.

Platform winch systems should accelerate to get out of the way of the pilot in case he is forced to land on the tow road.

In the event of a line break, the pilot must release the rope (or the part thereof) remaining attached to the bridle before landing. If the line break occurs at low level, the pilot may not have time to release the rope and will need to avoid snagging or tripping on the rope when landing. Additionally, if released immediately the rope will land stretched out and be easier to find, whereas it will land in a small pile if there is a delay in dropping it. If at all possible, the pilot should try to circle above and watch where the line drops to facilitate its retrieval.

(You just can't make up stuff this good.)

[Tad Eareckson]

HPAC Towing Procedures Manual - 2005/01/09

Experienced pilots flying in turbulent conditions may prefer weak links at the higher end of the range...

"The range" you've specified as flying weight times:
- 1.0 to 1.2 for surface
- 0.8 to 1.0 for aero

...while less experienced pilots and students (at the discretion of their instructor) should be at or below the low end of that range.

So what you're saying, HPAC shitheads, is that:

- An experienced pilot flying in "turbulent conditions" - which are the only conditions worth getting out of bed for - MAY *PREFER* a weak link at the high end of these 0.2 G wide ranges you've so generously provided us...

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


...because he can reduce the frequency of being dumped by the expected conditions and stand a chance of getting to a workable altitude. But he still has enough safety margin so that if he gets hit by something heavy at 150 feet he can pop off and tumble back into the runway.

- Less experienced pilots should fly at OR BELOW that range (which, for aero in the US is BLATANTLY ILLEGAL) and virtually GUARANTEE that they're gonna get dumped if they get hit by any of the stuff typically encountered in soaring conditions.

- An instructor can order a student up at the bottom of the range or anything below it he feels like so he'll have really awesome safety margins and...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


...get really great feedback if he doesn't do everything perfectly.

Please do leave that up there for another eight years, Gerry. I'm gonna have lotsa fun linking to it.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/11 17:46:12 UTC

Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS.

Or... Invest a wee bit of effort and attention span and ACTUALLY read it.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929
Training Manual Comments / Contribution

Bill Cummings - 2012/01/10 14:04:59 UTC

Tad's procedures for aerotowing should become part of any training manual.
Tad must have put hour upon hour of gathering together his written procedure.

Then get on the horn and tell everyone what's wrong with it and why:
- the existing USHPA AT SOPs and Guidelines
- Dr. Trisa Tilletti's Higher Education series of AT articles in the magazine
- the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden
- Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots, the Official Flight Training Manual of the USHGA
- Wallaby's Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots
- Quest's Aerotow FAQs
- Donnell Hewett's Skyting Newsletter series
are all of such superior quality. (You HAVE read all those, right?)

Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.

- How many decades did it take them before they all unanimously agreed that a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot installed on a one or two point bridle with the knot position so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation was the perfect weak link for all solo gliders - even though it's clearly illegally light for most solo gliders?

- Why does one never hear about the sailplane people spending decades working out the recommendation for 1.3 to 1.4 G weak links for all their birds?

- Why did Dynamic Flight, which has towed for decades, determine that a one and a half G weak link - twice what a majority of US gliders are using - was the better way to go?

- Why has USHGA NEVER been in line with the standard aerotow weak link and, for the vast majority of aerotowing history, specified a range of 0.8 to 2.0 Gs?

- Why didn't USHGA and the folks who spent decades working this stuff out go ballistic when, in 2004/09, the FAA regulated hang gliders under sailplane rules and made what they had worked out illegal for majority of aerotowed hang gliders?

- Why do we never hear the reports about the deaths and near misses of the brave test pilots who flew with less perfect thicknesses of fishing line in order to make the world a safer place for us and our children?

- How come it wasn't until late February of 2005 that the folks who'd been towing for decades and had worked this stuff out "tested" their assumptions by hanging themselves from a tree to find out that their strength predictions were total crap?

- Why, when the found out their strength predictions were total crap did they not upgrade the standard aerotow weak link to the actual 260 pounds they had been ASSUMING it was?

- Why on 2012/08/13 did Davis Straub, Imperial Wizard of The Flight Park Mafia, abruptly declare 200 pounds to be the new figure for the stuff worked out by the folks who have been towing for decades?

- What is it that you believe the stuff that was worked out by the folks who have been towing for decades is supposed to do?
-- Blow when you:
--- want it to?
--- need it to?
-- Hold when you:
--- want it to?
--- need it to?
-- Increase the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD?
-- Meet your expectations of breaking as early as possible in lockout situations but being strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence?

The reason for the vehemence of the response is they pile on to any AT accident...

There's no such thing as an AT ACCIDENT, dude. If you believe there is then you're saying that you or anyone else who engages in aerotowing is rolling dice

...with no knowledge of the cause...

OK, so we have NO KNOWLEDGE of the cause.

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

I would be more than happy to answer any questions pertaining to what I saw and experienced, but I prefer not to engage in speculation at this point.

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/03

For now I will say that it appears to have been a fluke accident.

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation.

Lauren Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:56:42 UTC

I am posting the report my husband, Paul Tjaden, just wrote about Zach Marzec's death at Quest. It is a great tragedy to lose someone so young and vital. We are sick about it, and our hearts go out to his friends, family and loved ones.

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 05:38:41 UTC

The glider pitched up.
The glider stalled.
A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.
The weak link broke.
So what?

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

I can't see how the weaklink has anything to do with this accident.

Paul Hurless - 2013/02/10 05:47:51

In general, no, I don't think that a weak link break is a big deal. In the case of the incident in Florida, I wasn't there to see it and I don't know all the details. I can't honestly make any claims about what happened and neither can anyone else who wasn't there.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 09:13:01 UTC

Hey Deltaman.
Get fucked.

Bart Weghorst - 2013/02/11 13:14:30 UTC

Ditto

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC

Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.

So tell me Kinsley... Who DOES have some knowledge of the cause?

It's been a month now - TODAY, just a little bit ago...

- We're hearing all these Questies, their colleagues and lackeys, tug drivers, 130 pound Greenspot Nazis saying fluke accident, can't see how the weak link has anything to do with, we have no idea what happened, I don't wanna speculate, nobody who wasn't there could POSSIBLY understand what really happened, anything anybody says is speculation, anybody who speculates can go fuck himself, we'll probably never know what happened.

- We're hearing ABSOLUTE *DEAFENING* SILENCE from Kitty Hawk - along with USHGA, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, the Towing Committee.

- Whenever a back-ender dares MENTION anything about the Davis/Rooney Link all the front enders start getting REAL DEFENSIVE and start screaming that nobody can prove anything.

But... None of the front end crowd has given us ANYTHING beyond freak accident, shit happens, have I told you in the last fifteen minutes what a REALLY WONDERFUL GUY Zack was?

But lemme ask ya sumpin', Kinsley...

peanuts here:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Dennis Wood - 2013/02/11 22:21:28 UTC

I've probably missed where someone explained this, and if so, just to reiterate and possibly simplify, angle of attack is relative to the direction of travel. in normal flight, our wings be traveling downward at a few degrees below level or so. under AT, we start out traveling horizontally and then change to more of a climbing path. when we become unhooked from the towline as in a broken weak link, our path changes back to the downward normal line, but our wings are still tilted like the climbing line, which is what makes us to be instantly in a very deep stall. the trick is to immediately recognize this and to lower our AofA before we lose our forward momentum and get back to a proper "speed".

is one of the 130 pound Greenspot Currituck assholes who worked alongside Zack. So if the Rooney Link had nothing to do with Zack's little boo-boo, then how come peanuts is talking about the angle of attack being relative to the direction of travel, normal flight, become unhooked from the towline as in a broken weak link, changing paths, being instantly in very deep stalls, and knowing the trick (which Zack obviously didn't) to deal with being instantly in very deep stalls?

If that isn't a smoking gun, dude, I have no idea what the fuck is.

...and trot out the, if only he had a strong weaklink, nothing would have happened.

OK, there's no fuckin' way a stronger weak link could've possibly improved the situation - and it might have made it worse. So what are YOUR ideas? Anything better than the freak accident crap and silence we're getting from Quest?

It's fine to want to work on better solutions to make us all safer by improving technology...

Sure it is.

Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/15 23:30:11 UTC

There does tend to be a lot of "Reinventing The Wheel" that goes on when people try to "Build a Better Mousetrap".
This is fine and dandy if you realize and accept that you are quite literally experimenting with your life.

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.
"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?

My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots.

Just as long as you're content to just WORK ON better solutions and not ever be able to get them into the air because vile pigfuckers like Rooney and Bo get veto power so nothing but the shit they sell ever gets hooked up.

So lemme ask ya sumpin' else, Kinsley... If you think it's fine to want to work on better solutions to make us all safer by improving technology...

- You're saying that the technology that the fuckin' douchebags at Quest have been perfecting for twenty years - and looks even worse than it did twenty years ago when it started out as pure shit - SUCKS, right?

- You're saying that the folks who actually know what they're talking about have NEVER done ANYTHING to improve technology - that ALL work on technology is being done by individuals not associated with commercial operations or glider manufacturers - RIGHT?

- So have you done ANYTHING *YOURSELF* to develop technology to make things safer for ANYONE - including yourself.

- Have you bothered to even LOOK AT the technology that's been developed, recommend it, thank anyone for the ENORMOUS EXPENSE AND EFFORT it takes to engineer, test, and certify this equipment and fight to get it off the ground?

...it's ugly and inhuman to use the death of a really nice guy to advance your point...

- Our point being - ASSHOLE - to prevent the death of the NEXT really nice guy who's currently going up on Quest/Lookout caliber CRAP.

- When we try to advance our points BEFORE the really nice guy buys it...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7067
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Dr. Tracy S. Tillman - 2009/10/09 22:10:38 UTC

Additionally, if you want to really present a convincing argument, you should also: (a) get other experts to co-sign your letter, such as those who have some or most of the aerotowing-related credentials listed above, who have been doing this for many years with many students, and who support your argument; and (b) present reliable data based on valid research showing that there is a significant difference in safety with the changes that you recommend. Supportive comments from aerotow experts along with convincing data can make a difference. Otherwise, it may seem as if your perception of "the sky is falling" may not be shared by most others who have a wealth of experience and who are deeply involved in aerotowing in the US.

...you useless goddam pigfuckers just piss all over us and tell everybody...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/09 14:44:23 UTC

AT, your continual bashing in general and bashing of HG schools has gotten really old. AT parks have solid safety records, so what you say and reality seem to be quite far apart.

You dominate the ignore report here http://www.hanggliding.org/ignorereport.php
Ever ask yourself why???

You do nothing but bring negativity here. My finger is on the ban button.
This is your last warning.

If you continue rubbing everyone the wrong way with your harsh, know it all tone, you are out of here.

...what a great job the folk who actually know what they're talking about are doing.

...in case it wasn't obvious I agree with Bart and Jim...

I'm so very glad you do, Kinsley. That ship is listing heavily by the bow and they ran out of lifeboats about an hour after Zack Marzec slammed in.

...and no it's not a lack of english comprehension - he said there would have been a different outcome with a stronger weaklink.

OK, you're right, the outcome would've been EXACTLY the same - a stronger weak link COULDN'T POSSIBLY have made ANY DIFFERENCE.

So if a stronger weak link couldn't possibly have made any difference then...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

From section 3.4 of the 1999 Hang Gliding Federation of Australia Towing Manual:

Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g. - i.e. the combined weight of pilot, harness and glider (dependent on pilot weight - usually approximately 90 to 100 kg for solo operations; or approximately 175 kg for tandem operations).

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

...what's behind this twenty year long rabid enforcement of 130 pound Greenspot and...

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

A few weeks later I was speaking with Rhett Radford at Wallaby Ranch about weaklinks and the issue of more powerful engines, and he felt that stronger weaklinks (unlike those used at Wallaby or Quest) were needed. He suggested between five and ten pounds of additional breaking strength.

...suppression of anything five or ten pounds heavier been all about?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Freedomspyder - 2013/03/02 22:59:04 UTC

Interesting results.

Totally meaningless.

Partially because of the low number of entries...

Why would anyone even bother responding to such a stupidly worded poll?

And also because many are either happy with their current strength, or they think stronger would cause more problems.

If they've responded to the poll they're INCAPABLE of thinking.

Do you believe taking off with a stronger weak link would be safer for your Aerotowing?

If you DO *BELIEVE* taking off with a stronger weak link would be safer for your aerotowing then why the fuck aren't you?

Stronger than WHAT?

How 'bout well after takeoff when you're about to slam into a monster thermal at 150 feet?

Do you believe that taking off with a larger parachute - which has a reduced opening shock and sets you down more gently but eats up more altitude before it can do you any good - would be safer for your flying?

What's:
- a safer landing direction - northeast or southwest?
- the safest speed to drive a car - 25 or 55?
- the best drug to take for an illness - antibiotic or anti-inflammatory?

Anybody who's thinks that a weak link is supposed to function in the interest of HIS safety is a total fucking moron.

I guess we could poll again for the strengths currently being used.

What do you think we'd get? Everybody's using 130 pound Greenspot and being told it blows at anywhere from 260 to 520 towline - 1.0 Gs.

However I am unsure of all the possible choices to use for that poll.

Fuck polls, put everyone up at 1.5 Gs or 250 pound bridle end weak links, and stop this thirty-couple year long idiot discussion.

Jim Gaar - 2013/03/03 02:30:31 UTC

ME? I use the FAA/USHPA calculation

As described in Dr. Trisa Tilletti's "Higher Education" article in the 2012/06 issue of Hang Gliding.

How about a POLL on how or what calculation one uses to select weaklink strength?

How 'bout a poll on the number of minutes allowable to satisfy the USHGA regulation about verifying one's hook-in status just prior to launch? I'm guessing we'd average somewhere around eight.

Davis Straub - 2013/03/03 02:33:02 UTC

I believe that any one can start a poll.

Really Davis? I don't believe I can.

Zack C - 2013/03/03 06:15:37 UTC

Jim Gaar - 2013/03/03 02:30:31 UTC

How about a POLL on how or what calculation one uses to select weaklink strength?

I know of very few pilots that actually 'selected' a weak link strength, and even fewer that have done any calculations. Most just use whatever they've been told to use/what everyone else uses.

I only know about a half dozen or so who know what a weak link is.

ME? I use the FAA/USHPA calculation

Which is what, exactly? The FAA and USHPA specify a range of acceptable values that is quite large.

See the article in last June's issue. Really hard to go wrong with 130 pound Greenspot.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 07:47:18 UTC

I think the phrase ya'll might be looking for is "Vocal Minority"

And growing - you ugly little shit.

And every time a solo goes up on the same strength weak link that you pigfuckers previously declared ideal for tandems:

- escapes the horrors...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

...you've been guaranteeing for near a decade WILL befall him

- is able to penetrate the deadly blast of...

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/10 17:19:54 UTC

You accelerate very rapidly of course and gain a lot of speed. I call it leaving the cart at Mach 5. No problem yet (well, there's a small one, but we'll get to that). As you leave the cart, the tug is already a good bit above you, so you ease off the bar pressure (you've got a ton at this point) and this is just about the same time you slam into the prop wash. Your weaklink lets go.

After a couple weaklink breaks in this manner, you start to wonder if Tad's right about these "weak" weaklinks. Nevermind that it's a technique problem not an equipment problem. Nevermind that using a stronglink greatly increases the chances that you will hurt yourself in a very bad way.

...propwash without getting his wings torn off - or really even noticing

- gets to clear the kill zone without being dumped on his face any time he does - or doesn't - hit some tiny little bump

- starts enjoying the feeling of being able to punch through turbulence...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

...and spend the day hang gliding instead of baking in line all afternoon waiting for relights

- starts realizing how badly he's been getting fucked over by all you self proclaimed experts and geniuses for the past twenty years

it's gonna get a lot more vocal and you assholes are gonna start being seen to be the clueless, incompetent, lying frauds you are.

And maybe the balance will start shifting to the people who've been consistently on the right pages and front lines all along.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/10 13:08:55 UTC

Even if you wait until trim speed to lift out of the cart, things can happen- gust of wind, thermal, broken weaklink... when you come out of the cart you are at an artificially high nose angle, and if you're only at trim speed you don't have much margin from stall speed. Say your weaklink breaks, you're going to nose-high, low, and slow... Tad's recipe for disaster.

You want to be pulled in to about best glide before coming out of the cart (bar to the tits, as they say)... the same is true for truck towing... this way whatever happens, you can deal with it, safely

Lauren Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:56:42 UTC

I am posting the report my husband, Paul Tjaden, just wrote about Zach Marzec's death at Quest. It is a great tragedy to lose someone so young and vital. We are sick about it, and our hearts go out to his friends, family and loved ones.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Hey Kinsley...

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/09 23:49:42 UTC

I have the greatest respect of Paul and Mark and their willingness to share what they know. I have zero respect for those who are using a tragedy to advocate a particular position, particularly when there is no proven link between their point and this accident.

How much respect do you have...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg


...for THIS:

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1081
Platform towing /risk mitigation / accident

Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC

No, you don't get an accident report.

...pigfucker? I don't recall you being involved in any discussions about that one.

How come you're so delighted to attack and denigrate people who are at least TRYING to address hang glider towing's lethal and chronic/recurring problems - REGARDLESS of whether or not they're right and can prove it and/or their tactics - while you're totally cool with giving all these ass covering serial killers free passes and praising other ass covering serial killers for releasing information they'd have a real hard time covering up anyway and are hoping to be able to use to write negligent homicide off as just another freak accident?

How much respect do you have for the USHGA shits who, now over eight and a half months after Terry was killed and Sam claims he submitted a report, have yet to acknowledge that anything ever even happened?

Wanna take a stab as to how long it'll take USHGA to acknowledge that anything happened at Quest and how they'll doctor things THIS TIME to rule out the Rooney Link as a relevant issue?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Freedomspyder - 2013/03/03 15:37:42 UTC

Why so flippant Rooney? No pun intended.

Because...

Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC

How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?

One of the question asked several times was what he thinks Greenspot 'works' to do, but...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

I'll answer actual questions if you're keen to actually hear the answers...

...he only answers "actual questions"

As far as I can see, his position can be boiled down to 'we use this because this is what we use.' And somehow asserting this constitutes 'refuting' something...

...he knows that any hope of continued success with THIS:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

...kinda bullshit wastes of space like Brian Vant-Hull have been letting him get away with for years and years and years and after flooding the wires with about a decade's worth of bullshit, lies, contradictions, dodges...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 10:37:47 UTC

I'm not sure who you're arguing with Zack, but it's sure not me... cuz man... you've got some pretty big hangups mate.

Ra ra ra... burn the greenspot!!!!
Get real man.
You think that's all we use?
Hell, just in this thread, you seem to have missed the 200lb orange links.
Ah, but your strawman argument lives and breaths by your black and white hyperbole.
When you come back to reality, let me know.
Till then, I'm sick of it.

You're hear to argue. Plain and simple. I've got better stuff to do.
Go blow smoke somewhere else. I couldn't give a rats ass... I won't be towing you so what do I care?

...and total Roonacy, everything started going down the toilet when 200 pound string started circulating in mainstream operations without a significant increase in glider and tug fatalities and was thoroughly flushed two tumbles before Zack Marzec slammed into the runway a month ago yesterday and there's absolutely nothing he can say now that won't blow up in his face.

So all he has left are these transparent and pathetic efforts to try to maintain the illusions of intellectual keenness and professional superiority.

So keep on hammering him with actual questions like THIS ONE:

Zack C - 2013/02/22 03:29:04 UTC

How light is 'very light'? How is this relevant?

It doesn't matter what or if he answers - he's already totally checkmated. He's been fuckin' dead meat for a month - and all we need to do is make a fair chunk of the really slow children realize it.

Then we can start picking off secondary targets.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years...

- Evolution is a HOAX!
- Global warming is a bullshit scam cooked up by climatologists so they can sponge up tons of government funding for their fake "studies".
- The Holocaust is a myth created by the kikes to help elicit sympathy and distract people from their plot to take over Central Europe.

...and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.

Bummer dude. But I really admire the way you're always sticking in there solely out of your deep concern for our safety and to protect us from our own dangerous decisions, equipment choices, and "theories".

This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

I dunno... It seems to me like every time some asshole gets snuffed by you assholes for reasons the very vocal minority (the dozen or so people in this sport with triple digit IQs) were predicting the horse always seems to spring right back up and start kicking and biting.

See, most people are happy with how we do things.

Sure. And the ones who aren't...



















Lotsa times they just don't return the survey card so we extrapolate from the survey cards that ARE returned and assume that most of them are happy with how we do things too!

This isn't an issue for them.

Like Paul Hurless for example. Just about ANYBODY with a brain no bigger than a walnut.

They just come out and fly.

Or, on the GOOD days...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

Thing's aren't perfect...

Really? It was my DISTINCT understanding that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years.

...they were.

but that's life, and life ain't perfect.

And if Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey couldn't get things perfect on his idiotic criminally negligent first bullshit "efforts" twenty-two years ago then NOBODY CAN. So don't ever bother trying - 'cause if anybody DOES perfect anything...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.

...shitbrained pigfuckers who've never done a single goddam thing in their entire useless lives to advance ANYTHING - like you and Bo - will just start walking away.

You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

What *I* can do with what I'VE got is so far beyond the comprehension of a stinking little heap of dog feces like you that it's beyond description.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better".

Yeah. That would be the crowd that knows better. Because the handful of people in it were actually able to comprehend grade school math, science, English.

To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".

NO!!! Who are these deranged and deluded individuals so far off the deep end that they're unable to have the slightest comprehension of your dazzling brilliance?

(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

Oh! So you're a fan of Kite Strings!!! 'Cause everywhere else you go you've got the protection of fellow pigfuckers like Davis and - before you started defending paragliders anyway - Jack along with the flight parks, clubs, and USHGA.

I have little time for these people.

Really? Sounds like you're finding it necessary to make some for them now.

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe...

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25302
Interview with Davis Straub, OzReport founder

Jack Axaopoulos - 2012/02/24 15:00:21 UTC

Tad has been BANNED again.

The "Extremist 1%" is not allowed on this site. Go crawl back under your rock with Bob and the other extremists that get themselves banned from every site and group they deal with. You guys have a marvelous record of getting along with people.

...mask the few people who are actually working on things.

Which few people? What are they working on?
- Better 130 pound test fishing line?
- Releases with even more bends in the pins so you can close them over fatter ropes without using weak links?
- Heavier duty velcro so the brake levers don't spin around on the downtubes as easily?
- Stronger backup loops?
- Extra Cs to add to the list of things you do for a hang check?

The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments.

And it's just SO MUCH EASIER when idiots like Kinsley...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.

Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

...just accept your statement that you know what you're doing because:
- you've always done it this way;
- you have a track record of quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows; and
- if there were a better way of doing things everyone would be doing them that way already.

So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

And the kind of douchebags who would have anything to do with you in person are so very malleable.

A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.

That's PRICELESS, Jim!

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

I'll add it to my collection.

For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean...

No no no no. I'm seeing EXACTLY what you mean. If any of these subhuman hang gliding assholes DARES question God's Honest Truth as delivered by Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney he needs to get into treatment a month ago.

...try having a conversation here about wheels.

Yeah...

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/09 18:30:26 UTC

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

I can't see how the weaklink has anything to do with this accident.

Because it's one of those crusty old debates that HGs love to go round and round with.
It's like uttering the word "wheels"... the conversation instantly turns into the great wheel debate.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/22 09:25:21 UTC

If he only had better wheels.

Keep using that "wheels" dodge in this pathetic effort you're making to avoid answering the question:

Zack C - 2013/02/22 03:29:04 UTC

How light is 'very light'? How is this relevant?

Keeping a tally gives me something to do.

(Gawd I love it when he posts stuff.)

The free ride you've been getting for the past decade is over, dude. Start getting used to it.