Jim has towed me before and has no problem towing me with this release.
- Mark Frutiger towed Zack Pro-Toad Marzec before and had no problem with that Quest/Davis/Rooney Link. So, OBVIOUSLY, we can rule out being pro toad and using Quest/Davis/Rooney Links as possible issues.
- Over 83 percent of people who've played a round of Russian roulette have no problem after putting a bullet in a chamber and spinning the cylinder. So, OBVIOUSLY, we can rule out bullets in chambers as potential hazards in Russian roulette games.
I wonder if all of you have quit beating your wives yet.
Yeah guys, quit beating your wives and save your strength and lead pipes for Davis and Rooney.
Swift - 2013/03/10 18:37:07 UTC
Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 18:03:59 UTC
Jim has towed me before and has no problem towing me with this release.
Exactly. Jim will tow a bent pin release that takes three times the effort to release, requires one hand to be removed from the basetube, and is expected "not to work" even if you wanted to risk taking one hand off the basetube to operate.
And hadn't already slammed in at that point.
That wasn't the issue. Some of us want to be able to use a release that doesn't require taking a hand off the basetube to operate, doesn't require super strength to operate, and is expected to actually do the job it was designed to do in the first place.
Those of us with no testicles anyway.
That being simply enough, release the glider from the tow when the PILOT wants to be released.
The PILOT?!?!?!
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/09 19:46:17 UTC
Here's a pretty decent example of why I say that I don't trust you guys to hit the release, especially when it matters...
What the fuck does the PILOT have to do with anything? Clearly you understand NOTHING about hang glider towing in general and hang glider aerotowing in particular.
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
Why use a release with all the problems above and then dumb down the weaklink to make up for those deficiencies?
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.
Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
Use homemade gear that MIGHT fail in new and unforeseen ways as it tries its damnedest to kill you instead of Industry Standard gear that WILL fail in old and familiar ways and succeeds in adding you to the list of people it's killed?
Jim has inferred that he will not tow any release that isn't sold by the business where he works.
That was my point and you flipped it.
Those that are still beating their wives should stop immediately.
Do make sure they're not related to or friends of Rooney or Davis first.
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
...the weaklink only being there to keep from breaking the glider are the only ones consistent, logical, and using actual numbers. And the opposition consists entirely of assholes, lunatics, morons, liars, scammers, and/or serial killers.
...and that maybe a pilot would not have crashed if the weaklink had be stronger...
MAYBE? So what's YOUR explanation - asshole? What's the consensus of OPINION over on...
Newer - AND older (see photo above) - tow pilots ARE in danger. And - mostly thanks to Donnell - ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.
I'm always seeing videos or online posts of pilots hurting themselves while repeating the same mistakes that have been solved in the past.
Yeah? Name some and tell me what Bob, Sam, Terry, Pilgrim, Peter, you have done about them.
Those that don't know the accident history of hang gliding are doomed to repeat it.
- Been reading Hang Gliding magazine lately? There haven't been any noteworthy hang glider crashes over the course of the past half dozen years. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
- Speaking of the magazine, Bill...
I'm guessing you thought that was a pretty good article by Dr. Trisa Tilletti on aerotow weak links in last year's June issue - 'cause I don't recall you trashing it the way you're trashing the folk here of the weak-link-only-being-there-to-keep-from-breaking-the-glider persuasion.
- Pretty much all of the hang glider towing "accidents" can be traced back to the Skyting Newsletter series:
It is just a matter of when some new tug and tow pilot operation or ground based operation will repeat a chain of events that will end up badly.
I think the old ones have been doing a pretty good job. Tell me what was wrong with the one at Quest on 2013/02/02 and how much more badly somebody who HADN'T been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years could've fucked things up.
Scenario # 1)
Tug pilot. Joe Clueless, says to HG pilot Joe Victomus, "Hey Vic, that's the third piece of sh%t, Cortland Greenspot, 130# weaklink...
- You DO know the history of how 130 pound Greenspot came to be the global one-size-all one and two point standard aerotow weak link...
- Do we need to discuss flying weights, glider capacities, two and one point bridles, lift to drag ratios? Just kidding.
...that you've blown and you haven't left the launch dolly yet."
Oh! So you're a lot more familiar with state of the art aerotowing than I had assumed! What? Florida Ridge?
Vic, says, "Could it be because the lawnmower has been broke for a week and the dolly tires are mushy?"
Oh! You fly at Ridgely! Next time you drop by be sure to tell the guys they can go fuck themselves and rot in hell for all eternity for me.
Yeah, those useless goddam shits DID let all the tires on half of their dollies go totally flat. (Literally - I'm not making this one up.) I got them a five gallon air tank and and did their job for them when I showed up.
But - I got news for ya, dickhead...
Even with that level of shoddiness on dolly maintenance that's not where more than maybe one percent of the Rooney links were popping.
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC
I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.
They were popping the same place they were in light conditions in morning flights at Zapata...
Les, says, "I have it on good authority that the only reason for a weaklink is to not pull apart the glider in the air and that anyone that thinks otherwise is headed for disaster!"
Like maybe Bryan Bowker, Arlan Birkett, Jeremiah Thompson, Zack Marzec?
--"I'm never going to be able to break your glider with this 3/16'" towline...
What's three sixteenths foot inch towline?
...so let's take the piece of sh%t weaklink off of there since in our operation it's redundant."
- Lemme tell ya sumpin', Bill...
Bridle end weak link. Choice between 130 and 1300 pounds.
Anybody who doesn't go with 1300 is a total fucking moron. It's a lot like making a choice between a parachute that falls out of the container every third or fourth flight and no fuckin' parachute.
- Fuck you.
-- The good guys in the relevant chunks of that weak link poll discussion are - in order of appearance:
--- Deltaman
--- Freedomspyder
--- Zack C
--- Swift
--- Mike Lake
NONE OF THEM is:
- "talking loosely"
- advocating:
-- eliminating a designated, calibrated, infallible weak link or weak link system from the tow configuration
-- going above the FAA regulations for upper limits
And one of the points that's being advocated is that weak link systems be configured such that all aircraft and releases are weak link protected at all times - which is most assuredly not the situation we have now.
Editor note: "the only reason," is not the only consideration or effect it will have on the towing operation and most of us know this.
"Most of you" are total fucking shitheads.
Clueless and Victomus, having been exposed to a vocal minority of loose talkers and posters...
Fuck you.
...will try this 3/16" Poly Pro towline weaklink and either be setting themselves up to be injured or worse.
- Like THIS:
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!
ya mean?
- Good. The more assholes who don't know what the fuck they're doing and can't adhere to reasonable common sense safety regulations we kill out of the sport the better. I will personally lead the cheering squad.
- Sounds like you're totally cool with the fact that ALL Dragonflies are configured such that ALL tandems WILL...
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
...get the rope - in blatant open violation of FAA regulations.
As most of us know they may stretch their tow bridle and when something breaks Vic will stop the release hardware with his eye ball...
Good. Then maybe total fuckin' douchebags like Bill Moyes, Bobby Bailey, Russell Brown, and Dr. Trisa Tilletti who are trying to use polypro to keep the focal points of their safe towing systems from doing their jobs quite so well will find their depth perception issues big enough problems to get the fuck out of hang gliding and infest other hobby groups.
...or the release won't activate under excessive towline tension.
Good. That'll help take out of circulation some of Bobby's bent pin bullshit along with the assholes stupid enough to use it. Win/Win.
The lockout could continue all the way into the ground.
- Cool! Maybe we'll get some good video.
- Like that can't happen with a Rooney Link? Talk to Steve Elliot and get his opinion.
- Lemme tell ya sumpin' - asshole. You lock out hard enough below a couple hundred feet it won't matter what:
-- you're:
--- using for a:
---- weak link
---- release
--- flying
-- the card in your wallet says
"911, WHAT IS YOUR EMERGENCY?"
Well, we were towing a Hang Four pro toad tandem aerotow instructor up on a standard aerotow weak link scraping the bottom of the FAA legal/safety range into a monster thermal at a hundred feet.
He couldn't hold the nose down enough and the standard aerotow weak link increased the safety of the towing operation at the worst possible time, when he was climbing hard in a near stall situation.
Right after that the glider tailslid, whipstalled, tumbled twice, and hit the runway. None of us has any idea what really went wrong and we'd prefer not to engage in any speculation at this time.
He was conscious when we got to him. How are you fixed for aspirin? We're all out here.
To stop thinking after hearing, "--the only reason for a weaklink----ect.---" and not taking into consideration the other effects on the tow operation will have the pilots, "Headed for disaster."
To go up with crap:
- theory
- training
- equipment
- drivers
and think for a nanosecond that throwing in a fucking piece of flimsy fishing line to try to compensate for any or all of the above is going to do ANYTHING but multiply your already high chances of a serious crash by a factor of a hundred is already a disaster waiting - very impatiently - to happen.
This scenario is not far fetched.
I'll bet I can name a lot more people who've been killed by Rooney links and assholes fixing whatever's going on back there by giving them the rope than you can douchebags killed in that idiot scenario you just concocted.
Pilots have been repeating mistakes ever since man took wing to the sky's.
- Ever since man took wing to the sky's WHAT?
- Yeah. But in flavors of aviation NOT based on the load of crap that Donnell cooked up a third of a century ago the motherfucker who trash themselves do so as consequences of VIOLATING physics based rules - not as consequences of being taught and forced to adhere to loads of crap made up by a couple of generations of pin bending total shitheads as they go along.
Do hang gliding, everybody in it, and yourself a big favor, Bill...
Bill Cummings - 2013/02/19 03:43:00 UTC
No one should confuse me with someone that has been exposed to higher education. I avoided that style of incarceration like the plague.
Stay way the fuck out of these discussions and let the people who've done their homework and know what the hell they're talking about handle the scummy serial killing assholes who've been destroying this sport for decades.
Exactly. Jim will tow a bent pin release that takes three times the effort to release...
...can't be gripped worth shit...
...requires one hand to be removed from the basetube, and is expected "not to work" even if you wanted to risk taking one hand off the basetube to operate.
That wasn't the issue. Some of us want to be able to use a release that doesn't require taking a hand off the basetube to operate, doesn't require super strength to operate and is expected to actually do the job it was designed to do in the first place. That being simply enough, release the glider from the tow when the PILOT wants to be released.
I'm sure that Jim will have no problem with your release.
Lying piece o' shit. You two motherfuckers have been doing everything possible for the past decade - blackballing and banning designers, sabotaging equipment and discussions, locking down threads - to make sure nothing better than the bent pin crap you sell ever makes it into the air at any significant level.
He just has a problem with too strong weaklinks.
Fuck him - and you. A too strong weak link is something over twice the glider's max certified flying weight - not some goddam cheap zero for six piece of fishing line idiot fucking Bobby Bailey pulled out of his ass twenty years ago.
I have no problem with your release and have featured it previously in the Oz Report.
Really? I wasn't aware that Swift had developed a release. Where on your shitty rag can we find it?
I have featured other mouth releases.
Well, I guess everybody thought they all totally sucked 'cause nobody's flying them and none of the flight parks have made any available.
I'm happy to have super strength. It comes naturally to me as I arrived from a distant planet as a little boy.
Yeah, we know all about your life as a little boy...
Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC
Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.
I'm guessing by "changes" you mean "fucks it up" - 'cause it's hard to imagine it being any crappier than it's been since you infested hang gliding.
Mike Lake - 2013/03/10 20:27:51 UTC
Uranus?
Nah. The anus of a half starved hyena who had to make do with weak old sun ripened wart hog.
Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 21:30:52 UTC
Obviously, Krypton.
Oh. That would explain why you don't feel you ever need to...
I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.
...do hook-in checks.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 22:58:21 UTC
Jim has inferred... No, you have assumed.
Or better, you're not listenin , you're looking for stuff to argue about.
Lacking stuff to argue with, you're making stuff up and trying to fit me into your bullshit narrative.
Davis... Yup.
I'm not bothered by straight pin releases.
I do think the strong link guys gravitate to them due to the higher release tensions that strong links can encounter.
Yeah, the higher tensions your asshole friends occasionally need to keep from whipstalling back into runways.
I don't like homade stuff.
You can't even spell homemade stuff.
And apparently I'm pushing people to buy my flight parks releases?
That's funny... We don't sell any.
Bullshit.
- You were trained by and worked at Ridgely - and Ridgely mass produced that crap.
- Your reputation amongst the assholes you scam depends almost as much on the acceptability of bent pin crap as it does on your glider killing fishing line.
Swift - 2013/03/11 01:01:04 UTC
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 22:58:21
Jim has inferred... No, you have assumed.
Or better, you're not listenin ,
I'm pretty sure that I have read something somewhere. One of us must be mistaken.
Let's give others a chance to chime in with their perception or assumptions of what you've said.
Better get them in before Davis locks the thread in another couple days.
I'm not bothered by straight pin releases.
I do think the strong link guys gravitate to them due to the higher release tensions that strong links can encounter.
Because they work better at higher release tensions?
You are not bothered by that?
Whatever, whoever selected bent pins for barrel releases.. what was the purpose?
Bobby had some lying around the shop and figured they were good enough for the assholes on the hang gliders he tows - occasionally to their deaths.
Is there some perceived advantage to a crooked pin?
Yeah, tug drivers are so bored with their jobs that they make games of seeing just how much dangerous shit they can get gliders to swallow.
Hasn't it has been known for years that the bent pin releases have problems working at moderately high tensions?
Why are inferior bent pin releases still considered the 'standard'?
Because they have insurmountably long track records - quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.
I don't like homade stuff.
You will tolerate straight pin releases if they aren't homemade?
Aren't they all homemade?
You've gotta be kidding me. Does a Bailey Release look like something just anybody can whip up at home with a two and a half dollar parachute pin, a foot and a half of half inch webbing, a piece of broken washout strut tubing, and ten seconds worth of stitching?
I dunno... Glider blows off tow for no reason, release requires a hand to come off the basetube, lotsa time and effort spent getting it to work when he gets to it, skinny mile long bridle with lotsa wrap potential... Looks pretty SOP to me.
Jim Gaar - 2013/03/11 01:33:05 UTC
I see one issue...
That's probably about as high as you can count anyway, Rodie.
...and that is that the pilot is hanging too high. That puts the tow release mechanism too close to the base tube during the beginning of the tows.
It's a shoulder mounted barrel release, Mister Jim Five-Years-as-Adventure-AirSports-Safety-and-Launch-Marshall,-Test-Pilot,-and-Mentor Gaar. If you have it within the range at which you can reach it then it can contact the basetube at pretty much any stage of a tow.
I could not see any weaklinks as well. Was there a WL that the short bridle went through? The bridle was intact after the first break.
Sure, why not? That's how they do things in Phoenix and they've only killed one of their guys with that configuration so far.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 02:21:14 UTC
Swift - 2013/03/11 01:01:04 UTC
You will tolerate straight pin releases if they aren't homemade?
Aren't they all homemade?
"Tolerate" Angry much?
What the fuck does that mean?
I don't know... you're the straight pin expert.
A goddam chimp's a straight pin expert. I'll take one over a typical Dragonfly driver any day of the week.
If you're looking for a hard and fast rule that you can set your watch by, you're not going to get one.
We already have one - no funky shit. You're MUCH too concerned with our safety to allow us to use anything which gives US the options to stay on or get off tow at OUR discretion. You and your piece of three quarter G fishing line are the Pilots In Command of our aircraft because there's no way in hell you can trust us to do the right thing - because you know what total pieces of shit you and your colleagues are as instructors and rating officials.
It's like defining "porn"... good luck with that.
Right. Engineering standards are just like porn - real gray area stuff.
At the end of the day, you've got to convince me, not the other way around.
If I'm not happy with your gear... for whatever reason... too bad.
I can give you a general idea of what I'm happy with and what I'm not, but i'll be damned if you're going to rock up and start demanding that I tow you because this or that. But that's how people that are picking a fight think. They're not looking for understanding, they're pushing their agenda. You are pushing an agenda. Push away pal. I couldn't care less if you like my answers or not.
It would be a real shame if somebody took out one of your wing strut bolts to make sure it was straight, missed the end fitting when reinstalling it, and tightened it up such that the plates were pulled together just enough to hold the strut in place until you got to a hundred feet or so.
I, of course, am not suggesting anyone actually DO this - just sayin' it would be a real shame if somebody DID.
Bill Cummings - 2013/03/11 01:24:21 UTC
Deltaman, What is the single biggest thing you see wrong with the tow operation in the video link that you posted?
OOH OOH... I know, I know!!!
Yeah. On a winch tow it's a lot harder for the driver to make a good decision in the interest of the glider's safety than it is for a tuggie with a lever on his joystick.
But I'll wait.
I can hardly.
Dawson - 2013/03/11 02:50:30 UTC
Bill Cummings - 2013/03/11 01:24:21 UTC
Deltaman, What is the single biggest thing you see wrong with the tow operation in the video link that you posted?
I did some scooter towing when I did my tow course, but since then have only aerotowed, but can I still play?
Why not? You couldn't possibly do any worse than total assholes like Rooney, Davis, Brad, and Rodie.
1) At first, he appears to have a weaklink because on the first tow, it seems to break, but if you read the YouTube comments, he says that the towline broke, so I guess there is no weaklink!
The towline blew at normal tow tension so I guess they actually DID have a weak link - and one REALLY GOOD at keeping the glider from being overloaded.
2) Towing under the bar from the shoulders looks wrong to me. I'd have thought it would be better off the hips, but that may just be my lack of experience with scooter towing.
A Koch two stage would've been a much better way to do it but he launches and flies OK with what he has.
3) The keel holder on the dolly looks to be too high. The keel never floats up off the holder, but instead, slides up (not forwards) off the holder once the glider has achieved the space shuttle launch position.
The dolly trim is fine. If the keel bracket had been too high the glider would've been stuck on the cart. His keel slides up (not forward) because he's climbing at a steep angle. He can climb at a steep angle because he doesn't hafta wait for a tug to get off the ground.
So, single biggest thing wrong uuuummmmmm, I'll go with number 1)
Right. He spends six seconds trying to pry that piece of shit bent pin release open and nothing sensed the difficulty he was having and kicked in to increase the safety of the towing operation. So DEFINITELY Number 1.
Lemme tell ya sumpin', dude...
Weak links are like parachutes... They're nice to have, it's good to fly with them - but the chances that in the course of several hang gliding careers that you'll both need one or the other AND that it's gonna do you any good are pretty much zilch. Both of them rank so far behind a good pair of wheels that they barely merit mention.
If I'm not happy with your gear... for whatever reason... too bad.
I can give you a general idea of what I'm happy with and what I'm not, but i'll be damned if you're going to rock up and start demanding that I tow you because this or that.
Like my mechanical advantage / load capacity being over three and quarter times better than your Industry Standard crap.
You've just reconfirmed my recollection about refusing to tow equipment that isn't the 'standard' bent pin issue.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 02:21:14 UTC
You are pushing an agenda. Push away pal. I couldn't care less if you like my answers or not.
You aren't giving any answers. I asked the purpose of the bent pin.
Bobby Bailey designed it - and he's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.
Is there perceived advantage over the straight pin that I'm not seeing?
Yeah. It forces everybody to use a Rooney Link as the focal point of his safe towing system. To engage anything five pounds heavier with that total piece of shit would be certifiably insane.
Don't you think it is fair to question why a proven inferior release is still somehow the standard that an experienced instructor, such as yourself, is more comfortable with?
These flight park operators and front end motherfuckers want to keep the gliders as scared of and dependent on them as possible. And I'm totally serious about that.
Compare/Contrast with platform towing in which you tend to have hang glider pilots taking turns towing other hang glider pilots...
- The weak link is understood to be an almost totally useless component of the safe towing system.
- The three-string release was always pretty good with plenty of mechanical advantage.
- The Mason Release version came along to improve it and it evolved a bit when minor issues became apparent.
- The weak links evolved up from Donnell's bullshit one G max rule. When they broke needlessly people upped them until they stopped breaking needlessly - at something in the neighborhood of two Gs.
- Whereas standard aerotow weak link values are given in terms of strands of Greenspot and the issue of pounds is merely a matter of the opinion and subject to revision as a situation may call for it - bench testing being an invitation for mockery and derision - truck tow weak link values are derived with load testers, given, known, and universally accepted.
- There are no epic discussions controlled by scum like Davis and Rooney about better equipment and stronger weak links.
- Weak links are never configured such that they can be taken out of the equation by a bridle wrap.
- About the only ways you can get seriously fucked up truck towing are to:
-- put a release lanyard on your wrist and thus create a version of a Birren Pitch and Lockout Limiter
-- force the glider to stay lined up behind the truck in a crosswind
-- misroute your bridle over the basetube
-- give some Sam Kellner caliber asshole control of the dump lever
- On the very rare occasions on which somebody gets seriously fucked it's immediately understood why, the reason is always a violation of a standard and logical protocol, and nobody's ordered not to speculate on pain of being blacklisted and having his towing career ended.
A straight pin is probably cheaper than a bent one. They have to train monkeys to bend them. Bananas ain't cheap, you know.
Deltaman, What is the single biggest thing you see wrong with the tow operation in the video link that you posted?
Are you kidding ?
No.
What we were talking about ?..
Bent vs Straight pin efficiency, saying a 200lb load on the release will require a 32.2lb vs 9.8 actuation force !!
To illustrate the insanity of using a bent pin release rather than a straight one in an emergency case near the ground at moderate to high tensions watch the video at 01:05 you will see the ease with which this pilot release his bent pin:
It's gonna crush your chest the first opportunity it gets.
Surface tows are, or better... should be, tension limited.
Yeah. Always assume that the tension's gonna be limited - and select your gear accordingly.
The lack(?) of weaklink makes little difference outside of a line snag... then it gets very important... as does the release.
Then the surface tow starts becoming a lot more like an aerotow - except that a pair of Bobby's Bend Pin Beauties instantly become funky shit.
So, between the two, you can argue (and will) among yourselves as to which is "more important".
Some day, people may learn that surface towing and aerotowing are two very different animals.
Oh, PLEASE stay with us and use your Keen Intellect to give us guidance on these issues!
(No, they actually won't, but it's fun to dream)
Fuck you, Jim. You don't even wanna think about what I dream about.
Deltaman - 2013/03/11 07:03:15 UTC
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 06:51:11 UTC
Some day, people may learn that surface towing and aerotowing are two very different animals.
For what I wanted to show we REALLY don't care if it is surface towing, shopping, swimming or everything else.
Consider the sequence of the video as a loading test of the bent pin release.
The question is simple: how works a bent pin release when it is loaded at moderate to high load...
We knew the data: at 200lb we must pull 32.2lb !!! and now you can watch the movie with far less than 200lb loading on the release (400lb on the line) cause you are right:
Surface tows are, or better... should be, tension limited.
and it probably is.
Tormod Helgesen - 2013/03/11 10:02:09 UTC
The video proves nothing beyond the fact that barrel releses is not suitable for surface towing.
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
If they weren't everybody would be using something else.
Deltaman - 2013/03/11 12:38:57 UTC
What is heavier: 1kg of feathers or 1kg of lead ?
Which tension on the release is higher: 200lb from aerotow or 200lb from surface towing ?
With you Tormod I start to understand what is trolling.
First we have datas.
What's more important - your data or the opinions of people like Davis, Rooney, and Trisa?
I personally tested those releases. Would you contest ?
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
We know the force to operate becomes harder with increasing tension.
What the video shows to you is difficulties to pull easily the barrel: 5 seconds before the pilot does !!!!
What the video don't tell you is the value of tension on the line while the pilot attempts to release.
But I bet my glider that it is far below 400lb (=200lb on the release)
I doubt the towline tension is as much as two hundred.
Nothing specific to surface towing here.
Even here you are wrong:
Tormod Helgesen - 2013/03/11 10:02:09 UTC
barrel releases is not suitable for surface towing.
Yes, Bailey bent pin barrel release isn't, cause L/A ratio is too poor and for the same reason this release is not suitable for AT either.
but straight pin barrel release is ok in the same configuration.
Who would argue to pull 32.2lb rather than 9.8lb with a straight pin release ?!
Some fucking asshole like Bobby, Davis, Rooney who sells and endorses bent pin crap.
In a lockout situation, near the ground, pulling 32lb, taking 5 seconds to release with one hand while keeping the pitch and controlling the glider with the other hand that sounds like a bad joke.
Depends a lot on who's about to get slammed in.
Tormod Helgesen - 2013/03/11 14:14:38 UTC
Deltaman - 2013/03/11 12:38:57 UTC
With you Tormod I start to understand what is trolling.
Says the guy with-no-name who told me I would die if I didn't convert to his gospel! Now you're just spewing shit.
I didn't say you were gonna die if you kept on skipping hook-in checks - asshole. I said the chances of you dying would be at least a thousand times higher than someone who DOESN'T skip hook-in checks.
But please - don't change anything about the way your doing things.
Deltaman - 2013/03/11 14:24:05 UTC
maybe it's flaming rather than trolling.
It's unfathomable stupidity.
Take a breath
Why? Is that anything we really wanna encourage with this guy?
---
2013/03/22 18:50:06 UTC
Oops. Should've read ahead. John Alden says he pulls at two to three hundred pounds with the average in the middle.
Deltaman:
Flaming? No, you just don't respond well to someone disagreeing with you.
Some of us don't respond well to people repeatedly disagreeing with grade school arithmetic.
Most people with an idea will, if not positively recived, let it go and accept that they have lost.
Not most of the scum typical of hang gliding participants. Haven't you been paying attention to any of the outrageous bullshit coming from the ringleaders of this show that just got some asshole killed by a Quest/Davis/Rooney Link induced whipstall and tumble?
Maybe once you had a point but it's lost in the noise.
Given that Newtonian physics haven't changed much in the past few weeks, if he had a point once it's probably still valid. And if it's been lost in the noise you can bloody well get off your lazy ass and find it.
Everybody can see why the video is not relevant to aerotowing and your point...
Sorry, I'm having a bit of trouble with this. Maybe you can get me pointed in the right direction.
...the time he's using to release is spent fiddeling around the basebar to find the damn barrel...
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
Fuckin' Paul Idiot Tjaden doesn't even have a snowball's chance in hell of even getting to it to start fiddling around with it and then blames my one and a quarter G Shear Link for not releasing him while he's not getting to it.
...moving his left arm to the center of the basebar and holding himself up against the tension which is pulling his face into the basebar.
Sorry, I missed the part of the video in which the tow tension is pulling his face into the basetube. What I did see is Scott pulling real hard on that fat stubby little piece of shit of a barrel for a good while and not being able to make anything significant happen.
And this is ENTIRELY consistent with the experience of Idiot Fuckin' Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden...
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
...on her little qualifying thrill ride five years ago - without having to move her left arm to the center of the basetube to hold herself up against any tension pulling her happy face into it.
None of this applies to aerotow...
Bullshit. I don't know how many more times you need to read these accounts before something starts sinking in.
...and it shows clearly why barrel releases isn't suitable for surface towing...
If they're not suitable for dolly launched surface they're not suitable for aero because the beginning and most critical part of the tows are very similar.
...he uses 5 times (at least) longer to release than if he was aerotowing and that IS potential catastrofic.
I got news for ya, dude...
When pro toad aero gliders get into lockout situations...
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
...these bullshit barrel releases don't get used before the weak link (ANY weak link) kicks in. They might as well not be flying with releases.
This all happened in a few seconds--in a lock out the line/bridle will likely be caught in your corner bracket further complicating things. I was actually in the process of reaching for the release and just about to pull it when the weaklink blew.
These things are pretty much only operable when you don't need to operate them. The assholes who use them are dopes on ropes praying for their Rooney Links to blow in time to give them enough recovery altitude to be able to get back on the cart with the same equipment and hoping that they'll still be high enough to get away with things when they get the same result next time.
A proper winch release needs a good slap and your free in half a second.
- So you're saying that a Koch two stage surface tow release is a better aerotow release than a US Industry Standard aerotow release? So how come the US aerotow industry isn't putting pro toads up on Koch two stagers?
- Who do you think is gonna win? A Koch two stager giving a good slap to free himself in half a second or...
...Antoine with both his hands on the basetube at all times and a string between his teeth?
- Tell me why any:
-- sane person who aerotows wouldn't have adopted this kind of technology immediately after it became available in the middle of the last decade.
-- commercial aerotow operation which gave a flying fuck about any of the people it hauls up wouldn't IMMEDIATELY get rid of all the bent pin shit people are using, start using 130 pound Greenspot for its intended purpose of fishing, and make this technology mandatory instead of calling it homade funky shit, the people who use it test pilots, and the people who try to get it into circulation pompus asswipes.
-- YOU have totally ignored Antoine's posts on and photos of this equipment and prefer to continue relying on your precious goddam Marzec Link to make your decisions and do your jobs for you.
So to the point of the force required: The straight pin may have benefits, so why aren't they available and in widespread use?
Well, it's pretty fucking obvious that they can't be any good because if they were everyone would be using them already.
Maybe it's a bad marketing strategy to call potential users idiots?
- And maybe it's a good marketing strategy for the pin bending shit merchants to call the technology homade funky shit, the people who use it test pilots, and the people who try to get it into circulation pompus asswipes.
- If somebody calls me an idiot for using or not using a particular piece of equipment or procedure and I haven't heard that particular point of view before I sure as hell am gonna seriously consider what he's saying and give him a shot at helping me to prevent myself from getting seriously fucked up - especially seeing as how I AM an idiot and have done plenty of stupid shit to get myself seriously fucked up before.
- But, hell, no way should YOU respond that way - 'cause you've obviously always had your shit totally together and couldn't POSSIBLY do any better than you've been doing all along.
If someone with credit (and a actual name) used them it would be another story.
Go fuck yourself, Tormod. Douchebags who operate that way don't deserve to remain in the gene pool for another fifteen seconds. Ya just never know when they're gonna pass their defects off into another generation.
And lemme tell ya sumpin' else... Any one of the people over there on the right side of this fight have ten times more credit and better names than you'll ever hope to.
That would be a better way to convince people than endless threads on internet forums...
Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about this thread being endless if I were you. Davis is gonna declare victory and lock it down after another 33 posts - the way he always does when he and his team are getting too many new assholes reamed.
I'm certainly not listening to you!
GOOD. And continued good luck with your Marzec Links. If they were a crappy idea for very clearly providing protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for that form of towing then how come everybody's been using them for that for the past twenty or thirty years?
I'm just writing this because I'm pissed off being called a troll (in the internet sence)...
Oh. You're pissed off being called a troll. Maybe you wouldn't get called a troll if you didn't call the people who are trying to help you...
He said "may". He shouldn't have to listen to you or anybody else to immediately understand that they DO. And he's been bombarded with accounts that clearly indicate they do. Don't get your hopes up.
so why aren't they available and in widespread use?
Honestly, I don't know and would like to turn the question back to you.
If someone with credit (and a actual name) used them it would be another story. That would be a better way to convince people
Personally I give credit to arguments, to demonstrations, but not to someone.
Otherwise I would have had no interest for the straight pin:
Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 12:04:42 UTC
I like and will keep my barrel release. You can keep yours.
Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC
I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.
or
Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC
The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.
Kinsley Sykes - 2013/03/05 21:48:54 UTC
infallible release? Not a choice I would make.
I built more than 20 straight pin releases and had no complaint..
Here in US, it seems harder:
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 22:58:21 UTC
I don't like homade stuff.
To the point of the video:
Tormod Helgesen - 2013/03/11 16:34:19 UTC
the time he's using to release is spent fiddeling around the basebar to find the damn barrel
That's not what I see. He uses the release 4 times and moves the barrel but just a little each time (red webbing progressively appears) cause the barrel don't slide easily as the force needed was high and unexpected.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 18:59:06 UTC
Storm in a teacup.
I did a demo for someone that was listening to Tad's drivel one day.
And you dealt with the drivel on weak links from Dynamic Flight...
Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.
...pretty effectively too. And seven weeks ago tomorrow afternoon your asshole friend...
Dynamic Flight - 2005
The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits. Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically and something will give - preferably the weak link. Given that a certified glider will take 6-10G positive a 1.5G weak link as opposed to a standard 1G weak link should not significantly increase the risk of structural failure. It will however significantly decrease the probability of an unwanted weak link break.
Consider a standard tow force of up to 0.8G. A 1G weak link gives a 25% strength margin. A 1.5G weak link gives 88% strength margin or 300+% more than for the 1G link. At weak link break a 1G link will give a total glider load of 2G, a 1.5G weak link a total load of 2.5G or 25% more. The stronger weak link therefore gives a 300+% increase in strength margin for a 25% increase in ultimate load.
I use a stronger weak link for the simple reason that low level weak link breaks are dangerous as the glider may not recover from the probable ensuing stall prior to hitting the ground.
...had a dangerous low level Rooney Link break and his glider didn't recover from the probable ensuing stall prior to hitting the ground.
Keep up the good work, dude!
I had them hang a barrel release from the ceiling. From that release, I had a rope with a loop. The loop was just a few inches above the floor.
You stand on the loop, then activate the release.
Don't take my word for it, go try it.
Now, I pro tow with a 130lb weaklink. I'm 160lbs soaking wet. The protow cuts the force seen by either side of the bridal in 1/2, so I'm overloading the release with over 2X's it's achievable load.
Your Marzec Link limits BRIDLE tension to 130 pounds. So you're adding thirty pounds to what that piece of shit fishing line - which is off the bottom of the legal range for any glider with a max flying weight over 325 pounds - and loading it to 123 percent of what it can see in flight.
And there's this new two hundred pound orange string that's now an accepted standard and has been getting a lot of buzz since 2013/02/02 for some reason or other. So with that your stupid little test that doesn't quantify required pull is only running eighty percent of max load. And the required pull for two hundred is over 32 pounds.
And most of you assholes just put a Marzec Link between the aerotow loop on the opposite shoulder and the other end of a long skinny bridle that everyone assumes...
Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
...can't wrap. And WHEN it does you'll have ALL of whatever the hell the tug uses to limit a tandem tow going directly to Bobby's Bent Pin Beauty. Call it just three hundred pounds - to give you a big benefit of doubt. So now you've gotta pull over 48 pounds on that crappy little tube. And remember that Paul didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of even GETTING TO his.
And you fuckin' idiot Dragonfly douchebags are too stupid to configure such that your weak link can't be taken out of the equation by a wrap at that end either - so good freakin' luck.
And with a 25 pound pull on my straight pin barrel I can blow over a quarter ton direct loading.
I have no fear of bent pins.
Just like up until:
- 2006/02/21 you had no fear of launching unhooked after you did your stupid fucking hang check
- about 2013/02/03 15:00 local standard time Zack Marzec had no fear of flying pro toad with a Rooney Link on his shoulder
Why aren't straight pins used?
That's easy. They can't be used with anything but thin lines.
They also can't be made with anything but thin lines.
And you wanna use REALLY THICK LINES wherever you can because...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Except you also wanna throw a chintzy little loop of fishing line into the system because while rope breaks and premature releases are the greatest dangers in a towing operations weak link breaks ALWAYS increase the safety of the towing operation by preventing lockouts and high angles of attack.
Listen, you sleazy lying little pigfucker...
One of my barrel releases in one point mode can handle about a thousand pounds of towline tension. And thanks to idiot fucking Bobby Bailey's idiot fucking tow mast breakaway that's about two and a half times what I can possibly see behind a Dragonfly and I use a weak link for one point mode which limits the release exposure to under 250 pounds. So you and your bent pin crap...
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
...can fuck off.
Tad loves to forget that I've actually gotten one of his to jam.
I don't forget anything, pigfucker. I don't forget that you took a perfectly good tandem glider with a perfectly good paying passenger, dove it into the powerlines, and put her in the hospital along with your useless stupid ass. So whenever I want somebody to get something to jam I'll keep you in mind.
But I'm really only interested in dealing with people who want to use stuff that works and want to properly maintain, configure, set up, and prelight such that it works. And people who don't want to or aren't capable of doing that - assholes like you and Davis - have no place in hang gliding. 'Cause chronic fuckups like you and Davis give the rest of us bad names and raise our health care costs.
NOTHING is perfect kids.
Well then, what's the harm in towing funky shit? We're all just rolling dice every time we fly anyway and counting on our Rooney Links to hold and blow when we need them to and the sidewires we didn't load test during preflight not to pop.
Straight pin releases can work...
- Oh. They CAN work. So can you give:
-- me any:
--- accounts of them failing in the air?
-- incident NOT involving some useless malicious little shit working on the ground figuring out ways to sabotage it - the way Davis sabotaged Steve Kinsley's multi-string release?
-- Zack C detailed instructions on what steps you had to go through to get it to jam so he can acquire the necessary tools and try to duplicate your efforts?
- Cambered battens CAN work. But if you insert them in the sail backwards they can really fuck up your glide ratio.
...but they're not the panacea that these guys are claiming.
QUOTE *ANYBODY* saying these things are panaceas - motherfucker.
- Zack Marzec goes up pro toad with straight pin releases and a Rooney Link. He flies into a monster thermal at 150 feet, the Rooney Link trumps the barrel releases, and he whipstalls, tumbles, and dies.
and get hit low by something nasty enough then I AM FUCKED.
There are limits to what we can survive on or coming off tow just as there are in free flight just as there are walking across a wheat field when a tornado drops by.
So we don't talk about panaceas and throw out a bunch of crap about how anything can fail and nothing's perfect. We equip ourselves with the best technology possible, train ourselves in the best procedures and responses, and use our judgment to keep ourselves the hell out of situations which require the best technology, procedures, and responses.
The instant someone starts telling us about his "perfect" system, we start watching it like a cat watches a mouse and seeing if we missed something that can help us do our jobs better and increase our safety and performance margins. But a stupid, parasitic, little shit like you wouldn't know anything about that 'cause the only thing you're interested in is scamming all the brain dead morons in this sport into believing that you're some kind of Messiah descended from heaven to save us from ourselves.
Marc Fink - 2013/03/11 20:31:29 UTC
There is no escaping the spawn of the Tad!
Go fuck yourself, Marc.
Tormod Helgesen - 2013/03/11 20:36:21 UTC
Thanks Jim, I knew there must be a reason why the straight pin isn't much used, just didn't know what.
Now, I pro tow with a 130lb weaklink. I'm 160lbs soaking wet. The protow cuts the force seen by either side of the bridal in 1/2, so I'm overloading the release with over 2X's it's achievable load.
You were loading the release directly to 160 lbs, right? If so, that's only 1.2 times it's achievable load with a 130 lb weak link.
Sure is a good thing we've got somebody in aerotowing with...
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
...such solid comments, a keen intellect, and a great knowledge of the issues so we know the one person to whose comments we should give the most weight.
Why aren't straight pins used?
That's easy. They can't be used with anything but thin lines.
They also can't be made with anything but thin lines.
Narrower barrels improve release performance. Obviously, you won't be able to use thick webbing inside of them, but why does this matter?
'Cause thick webbing is really easy to run through a sewing machine when you're mass producing cheap shit barrel releases with the bent pins you've brainwashed all of your idiot customers to believe is serving some kind of useful purpose.
Yes, they have to engage thinner lines...
Not really. You could EASILY engage a synthetic bridle line heavy enough to break the glider with a straight pin and it would still close and have much better performance.
...but all releases should engage weak links anyway.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots.
(For those with a weak link only on the shoulder opposite the release, imagine what would happen if that weak link broke and the bridle failed to clear the tow ring.)
Anybody who is truly a good pilot, in any form of aviation, knows that the knowledge, skills, and judgement you have in your head, learned from thorough instruction from a good instructor with a good curriculum, are the best pieces of equipment you can fly with. Good equipment is important, the best equipment is a well-trained brain.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 18:59:06 UTC
Tad loves to forget that I've actually gotten one of his to jam.
You can jam straight pin releases by flipping the pin perpendicular to its normal plane of rotation when engaging the release instead of rotating the pin.
You can do that with a curved pin just as easily.
It's the size of the eye relative to the thickness of the base material going through it that's the issue. The webbing that's used in the bent pin / fat barrel crap makes locking the pin through a loop pretty much impossible.
But anybody stupid enough to both do that on the ground and get into a situation in the air in which it matters is quite welcome to go kill himself as far as I'm concerned.
However, that's easily prevented using a stop to limit the barrel's aft travel, and I doubt anyone would do that anyway unless they were trying to make it fail.
Which, of course, Rooney was.
Curved pin releases are fine for those using 130 lb weak links.
Bent pin release pull at 130 pounds: 20.9 pounds
Straight pin and same: 6.4
I'd say they're not fine.
I wouldn't use them with anything stronger, though.
I wouldn't use them period. Why pull an extra fourteen and a half pounds for no reason when you may be a second or two away from certain death?
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/11 20:57:51 UTC
Sorry, yes it's early... Just under... As you've said many times... 130 breaks at100 right?
Why are you having to ask Zack, Mister Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney whose been forcing everybody to fly this shit for almost a decade, whining about how nobody's gonna be a test pilot on the other end of a line that he's on and compromise the safety of both, and just had a friend killed by a popped Rooney Link in a freak accident thirty-seven days ago?
I'm 160.
This is what Davis says about Zack Marzec:
Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 20:29:52 UTC
180 lb pilot, 75 pound glider, 38" tow bridle, chest loops 12" apart, pro tow set up.
He says 180 pound PILOT - not hook-in weight.
But let's say that 180 WAS his hook-in weight and that he was maxed out on that glider. You at this point think that he was flying a one hundred pound weak link which puts him at 0.78 Gs which is a violation of the FAA minimum for aerotowing.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 00:34:14 UTC
You need to understand something here that you're really not getting yet.
You are talking as if I or "we" need to justify something to you.
This is 180deg off.
YOU are the one arguing with a system that's been in place and has been worked on over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.
The onus is on YOU.
Not the other way around.
"We" don't need to justify jack.
You want to take pot shots... go for it. I couldn't give a toss.
You don't like my answers... again, get bent.
You're the newbie.
You want to bring in something new?... go for it... it's to YOU to justify it.
It is not to us to justify what we do.
We've been at this a long time and have gone over and over all these little arguments before that you think are "new".
They're new to you.
But they're old hat to "us".
And I notice you're not telling Zack that that's not how you got Tad's release to jam - pigfucker.
He's not trolling. He thinks at this point that this universal focal point of a safe towing system that Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey pulled out of his ass a couple of decades ago is 38 percent of the value that Quest, Ridgely, Trisa are telling telling everybody it is.
John Alden - 2013/03/11 22:57:34 UTC
Columbus, Ohio
Well, probably ought to chime in if for no other reason than it's my student in the video that's being critiqued.
Have you got time to chime in about the freak accident at Quest at the beginning of last month? Or did you get the memo the next day telling you to keep your mouth shut except to attack anybody who suggests that the Rooney Link may have been a factor?
I'll address the issues as I remember them.
I respect Rooney's perspectives...
Yeah? Go fuck yourself then.
...particularly on landing technique...
Fuck his perspectives on landing techniques - particularly at tow operations in Florida and Ohio.
...and I'll be the first to admit that the towing setup we use is less than perfect.
Any thoughts on who'll be the first to make any improvements on any of the crap we've been using decade after decade?
That being said, we have had a lot of success using the barrel releases.
Who the fuck cares? Whenever a tow situation is under good control you can have a lot of success using hook knives.
I guess one can call them aero tow releases if you want...
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
Isn't an aerotow release something you're supposed to be able to use to release from aerotow?
...but they are barrel releases with all the advantages of simplicity...
Oh right, I forgot. Anything that's simple automatically qualifies as an aerotow release. I prefer to use a tennis ball myself and I'm doing some experiments with Dixie Cups which show some promise and should fly by the no funky shit qualifications no problem.
...and of course the disadvantages that have been pointed out.
That shit that I just quoted from those three morons IS NOT *DISADVANTAGES* - asshole. That's shit that gets people killed.
I wouldn't use barrel releases in any kind of land towing other than stationary where the tow operator has his eyes glued to the pilot 100% of the time, and can drop line tension at any time.
Oh. So they're dangerous but you don't need to equip your pilots with good stuff 'cause you've got one hundred percent reliable drivers and winches and can handle any situation that can develop from the other end of the rope. The barrel releases are just there to make the guy on the glider feel like he'll be able to do something helpful if/when the shit hits the fan.
It's customary for the tow operator to drop line tension...
Pressure.
...as the pilot tops out his tow and reaches for his release...
So presumably at 1:09 when Scott starts trying to pry his Bailey Release open the line tension has been dropped. And you're not seeing a real problem with what is and isn't happening at that point?
...and of course any time the pilot is having PIO's.
...Sam Kellner about the best time to dump tension in an oscillation cycle.
Prior to starting the scooter tow operation just about all the towing in our area had become areo towing so using this simple release was something everyone already had and knew how to use.
Funny then that you need to have your tow operators so wired on their ends to be dumping tension when gliders are topping out and oscillating.
Or by "something everyone already had and knew how to use" did you mean that they had already figured out that there was no way in hell they were gonna be able to blow of tow under anything but the most benign of circumstances with the tension greatly reduced?
Transitioning from aero tow cart launching to stationary winch tow cart launching is easy and the transition works well the other way too.
Yeah. Sounds like they know that they're equal helpless in both environments and totally resigned to their fates.
Those familiar with both launches know that the keel of the glider does not float out of the rear support during a land tow like it does during an aero tow.
Toldyaso.
The release problem that the pilot is having at 1:05 is actually the result of reaching over rather than under the bar.
Good thing it wasn't a low level emergency and he forgot which was the best route to take with respect to the bar in order to have the best shot at prying his Bailey Release open, huh?
The proper technique is to grab the release where it attaches to the harness and run the hand up to the barrel and pull.
And what's the worst a glider could be doing when somebody's exercising the proper technique.
I also modify the barrel release so that it's a push or pull.
Which means that the barrel needs to be of large enough internal diameter to fit over the pin eye. Which means that it's mechanical advantage really sucks - especially with those idiot bent pins you insist on using. Which means you're giving somebody with a slack line the luxury of being able to dump it with one hand at the possible expense of killing somebody in a low level lockout.
That works well too.
I never had the slightest doubt.
The weak link is on the left release...
And of course there's NO FUCKIN' WAY that bridle isn't gonna clear if somebody pulls the left release by mistake so why bother having a weak link on the right release too.
...and it's a double loop of green spot.
Really?
- Why?
- What's it's breaking strength?
- That's what the real pros use for heavy tandem gliders. Sounds dangerous.
- Hell, that's on a one point bridle. Sounds about fifteen percent MORE dangerous.
- Did you get...
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC
I still won't tow people with doubled up weaklinks. You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.
...Rooney's approval to make up shit like that? Hell, even HE doesn't make shit up like that.
- How many pounds pull on your bent pin releases do you need to blow at the maximum allowable tension of a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot?
A strong tow pulls at between 200 and 300 lbs with 250 being average. We tow with a Spectra bridle going through a loop in the end of the Spectra tow line. The loop will wear thin and needs to be cut out and retied periodically otherwise a line break will occur at the loop as happened once in the video.
Yeah. At 0:22 Scott has...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...a line break. And he has to stuff the bar and the nose pitches down pretty dramatically. And if you're pulling him at 250 pounds that's right about the same tension that Zack Marzec had when he abruptly lost his line at 150 feet.
The advantage of the loop over a ring is one less hard object to cause injury.
Yeah, that's a really important advantage. You sure wouldn't want one of those nasty aluminum keychain carabiners snapping back into somebody's parachute container if the towline broke with that one point Spectra bridle stretched out under all that tension.
Metal parts on the towline or bridle in front of you are only a safety issue if the line or bridle between the pilot and the metal stretches. If it doesn't stretch and there is no elasticity, the metal does not really sling back to the pilot in case something breaks.
MUCH better to have the bridle cut through the eye splice serving as a tow ring every now and then. That way there's no hard object capable of causing injury - unless, of course...
The pilot is never having to push himself up off the bar.
Toldyaso.
The harness is set so that as the tow tops out he is not in that situation. If a pilot has truck tow loops we will pull off of those if he prefers. Some single suspension harnesses require modified pilot technique or an angle of dangle limiting line to use releases attached near the shoulders. Most often we keep the releases very close to the pilot but sometimes it's better to mount them father out to avoid interference with the control bar base tube during launch.
Why not just use Koch two stagers?
Curved vs straight pin? I had a straight one bend once...
One of those idiot webbing / fat barrel pieces of shit that...
...Steve Wendt makes?
...when the pilot didn't properly insert his bridle.
Why was he connecting a bridle end without using a weak link?
I've also had the red Lookout releases corrode and get so tight they become unusable unless you drill out the rivet and make it a push/pull.
Well yeah...
Matt Taber - 2009/07/12
GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything. We make no claim of serviceability in any way and recommend that you do not use this aerotow gear if you are not absolutely sure how to use it and or if you are unwilling to assume the risk.
It's not like that gear was warrant gear as suitable for towing anything. Read the fuckin' manual ferchrisake.
And I've bought releases that were improperly made where the barrel didn't cover enough of the curved pin and would release under tow pressure.
Great! So what's so fucking goddam difficult in doing something like THIS:
Do people in hang gliding get PhDs figuring out how to fuck things up so badly with a two and half dollar parachute pin, a length of cord, and a piece of tubing that they can use it to kill somebody a half a dozen different ways? Or are they REALLY THAT STUPID???
So either one works for me.
Yeah. The important thing is to use something that can kill somebody. Just how really doesn't matter all that much.
Aero towing preference? Solo, I like the pro tow with two barrel releases and one loop of green spot.
WHOA!!! DUDE!!! That's EXACTLY what Zack Marzec liked for solo! What are the odds!
Tandem, I like a bicycle handle release in the corner and two back up barrel releases with a double loop of green spot on the keel release.
WHOA!!! DUDE!!! That's EXACTLY what Rob Richardson liked for his tandem! This is fucking AMAZING!!!
Probably a good idea to do a few practice flights with those backup releases. Just make sure your parachute's in good shape and recently repacked first.
