instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[groundeffect]

Tad,

Yes, I haven't seen any rotor wing Cessna's. I did have a chuckle over that one.

I knew that no one came close to answering my aerotowing concern question on the org. They failed miserably but what could I really say. They know I'm a H2 with few skills, at least in their eyes. Though someone sent me to kitestrings, so all wasn't lost.

[miguel]

Welcome to kitestrings. Hope you stay awhile. Ask your questions here. The only dumb question is no question.

[Tad Eareckson]

I knew that no one came close to answering my aerotowing concern question on the org.

They've all been answered over there before.

http://www.hanggliding.org/search.php?search_author=AeroTow

Ignored, sent to The Basement, locked down, banned...

Notice all the deathly silence coming from Jack on this latest fatality? He totally screwed himself over and can't afford to even acknowledge this latest fatality. Reminds me a lot of Jack's old buddy and Formerly Tolerated Ex Kite Strings Member Bob Kuczewski and the situation with Sam Kellner, the late Terry Mason, and Yours Truly.

They failed miserably...

It's an intellectually castrated community (cult) which wants its High Priest...

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

...to protect it from anything that clashes with its belief system. What did you expect?

...but what could I really say.

Anything you want. If you get banned it just gives you more credibility and further exposes Jack as the fraud he is.

Ask your questions here.

And challenge the answers. Plenty of mine here have been wrong before.

The only dumb question is no question.

You sure...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 05:38:41 UTC

The glider pitched up.
The glider stalled.
A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.
The weak link broke.

So what?

...'bout that?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

johhnn - 2013/04/04 21:34:54 UTC
Maine

I am just a newbie, having made only sixty "flights" down the training hill from about a hundred feet or less. But I have the same concerns. I met Zac...

Zack.

...last year.

Hopefully not in the context of any discussion involving aerotowing.

I asked before in the forum about the accident about tail planes. You mentioned powered aircraft. They have tail planes (or are they called horizontal stabilizers?) that prevent tumbling. I know Aeros has a tail plane that can be fitted on their and other gliders.

Anybody have any experience or thoughts on this that they care to share?

Sure John. Rig your glider with a tail. Then when your Rooney Link dumps you into a whipstall at 150 feet you won't have anything to worry about.

Davis Straub - 2013/04/04 21:44:37 UTC

You don't need a tail on a hang glider that is designed not to have a tail.

How 'bout a:

- two point bridle on a hang glider that is designed not to be flown by someone being pulled a foot and a half in front of the basetube?

- one and a half G weak link on a hang glider that is designed not to be whipstalled at 150 feet?

- release that lets you blow tow in an emergency on a hang glider that is designed not to be flown in an emergency with one hand?

- pair of wheels on a hang glider that is designed not to be flown by someone upright with his hands on the downtubes or pitched up more than thirty degrees?

- hook-in check on a hang glider that is designed not to be launched, flown, and landed without a pilot suspended from the hang point?

Dave Hopkins - 2013/04/05 01:02:10 UTC

I think it's a fact that a tail would help high aspect ratio flex wings in most tumble situations. We don't get in those situations often.

So, John, you should be very comfortable being pro toad in thermal conditions with a Rooney Link to very clearly provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for that form of towing.

In 35 yrs flying, 25 in flexis I have not felt I needed a tail.

If you haven't tumbled, yet, you haven't needed one, yet - irrespective of your feelings.

And the vast majority of people towing have not felt they needed a release they can blow in an emergency or a weak link that will hold up to any situation in which the glider isn't getting significantly stressed.

And the vast majority of pro toads have not felt they needed they needed a two point bridle to trim the glider properly on tow.

But when you start looking at who the vast majority of people who are getting crashed, knocked out of the sport, crippled, killed trying to tow are...

But I bet it would have helped Zacks situation.

Good, Dave. Then we don't really need to be looking at the two factors which would've in no uncertain terms PREVENTED Zack's situation.

I think H.P. flex wings are reasonably safe and beginner gliders are extremely stable.

Total fuckin' moron.

Jerry Furnell - 2013/04/05 01:09:53 UTC

Is there any record of a tumble in a flexwing that has a tail?

Not interested, Jerry. The topic is "Aerotowing Concern", we've only ever had one tumble directly related to aerotow, and you only need a low double digit IQ to totally prevent them.

Note also the recent tumble accident at Manilla that I posted in the "Incidents" section on this forum.

I'll get to it when I'm bored enough.

John Fritsche - 2013/04/05 02:08:26 UTC

Probably not, but there are very, very few tumbles AND very, very few people flying gliders with tails. That combination of factors makes the likelihood of any one type of glider having more tumbles than other gliders have pretty tiny.

How 'bout we focus on the recent one at Quest, look at the equipment that the glider was using, and see if we can come up with any recommendations?

With regards to the original topic: I personally am just about equally comfortable with aerotowing and foot launching. The characteristics of some foot launches make launching in most conditions incredibly easy, brainless, and safe, whereas I ALWAYS feel at least a little sense of intensity on aerotow until we're up a few hundred feet.

What are you most afraid of happening and are you using the best equipment possible to prevent what you're afraid of happening from happening?

With that exception, I feel the two types of launching are equally safe.

Aerotowing's safer - but only about one percent as safe as it COULD - and SHOULD - be.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Dave Hopkins - 2013/04/05 03:24:04 UTC

Towing , What could go wrong?
We are draging a tailless, weight shift controled,l anhedral...

I hate that idiot term. It's either positive or negative dihedral (or flat).

...wing with a low center of mass into the air by some type of bride...

Helen Hewett.

...and some form of power which the wing was not designed to fly by...

BULLSHIT. The wing evolved from towing.

...all created by a bunch of garage mechanics...

Stupid, incompetent, negligent, douchebags...

...that are desparate to fly. ...

Desperate to sell Dragonflies and get suckers like us to pay them to fly.

...and they did a fine job!

Go fuck yourself, Dave. The collective IQ in these discussions is already plenty low enough without you dragging it down several more notches.

GroundEffect - 2013/04/05 11:32:12 UTC

I for one would like to see these aerotow fatalities taken as seriously as a 747 going down. Why not have a full investigation by the FAA, to include the manufacture of the glider and the tow equipment.

Because it would take them about five seconds to determine that:
- it was the focal point of hang gliding's safe towing system that clearly provided protection from a high angle of attack that killed him; and
- virtually all Dragonfly tows are being operated in blatant and flagrant violation of federal weak link regulations.

And nobody wants anything like THAT to happen! Not even any of Zack Marzec's family members ferchrisake!

Steve Forslund - 2013/04/05 12:13:03 UTC

Why not, because they know nothing about hang gliding.

Yeah Steve... It's not like in sailplaning where...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti 1 - 2012/06

You and I have flown sailplanes for almost as long as we have flown hang gliders. We own two sailplanes and have two airplanes that we use for towing full-size sailplanes. In all the time that we have flown and towed sailplanes, we have not experienced or even seen a sailplane weak link break.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti 2 - 2012/06

It's not that it doesn't happen, but it is a rare occurrence. Russell Brown, a founder of Quest Air in Florida and a well-known Dragonfly tug pilot, is also a sailplane pilot, tug pilot, and A&P mechanic for a large commercial sailplane towing operation in Florida. He told us that, like us, he has never seen a sailplane weak link break, either.

...people use RELEASES to release and weak links to prevent overload a weak link breaks are dangerous and expensive. This is a TOTALLY different game.

Stupid goddam pigfucker.

Davis Straub - 2013/04/05 12:29:09 UTC

Maybe the FAA could also pave our runways with gold.

As opposed to your strategy of paving them with dried blood.

[groundeffect]

I don't think Davis is going to come around on this matter.

[Tad Eareckson]

These are a bunch of really evil lying serial killing motherfuckers you're dealing with. Don't think for a nanosecond that you can engage in a civilized rational discourse with any of them and advance any level of understanding.

They know EXACTLY what the score is and that it's their policies and junk equipment which have gotten people like Zack slammed in and killed at regularly scheduled intervals. And they also know that to admit that they know what's going on would destroy their reputations and open them up to serious liability issues.

Understand that Davis would as happily kill you as look at you and engage him for what he is.

You're fairly secure cutting his ass up pretty viciously on The Jack Show because there are several people over there with high social standings who hate the sonuvabitch and haven't been shy about expressing their viewpoints.

Also...

As I've said, Jack can't afford to enter into any of these discussions because as soon as he opens his mouth we can hit him with stuff like THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Red Howard - 2013/04/05 12:48:51 UTC

GroundEffect,

One should always be careful about what they wish for.

Why? Hard to imagine things getting any worse than they are now. Dragonfly aerotowing is already so dangerous and corrupt I have no desire to participate in it.

Those with some experience with such events (and the investigators) have said this:
"If an earthquake suddenly opened a fissure in a runway that caused an accident, the NTSB would find a way to blame it on pilot error."

And under USHGA when Sheryl Zayas's dolly got a wheel snapped off in an armadillo burrow, her shoulder destroyed, and her hang gliding career ended it's her fault for assuming that the assholes at Florida Ridge would maintain something resembling a safe runway for the people paying them to use it.

Or when the front end weak link blows at Hang Glide Chicago and the tandem with Jeremiah Thompson and Arlan Birkett goes down like a brick it's because...

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2013/04/05

Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.

...they were stupid enough to push out a little to get level with the asshole tug who had forgotten he had a glider behind him.

I'd rather see four videos of the accident (with different camera angles)...

Here ya go, Red...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI

04-2301
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5535/14077566935_0a5d82d279_o.png

08-2323
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5553/14097605903_0e4c69be73_o.png

21-2900
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5156/14074342991_52404ffb88_o.png

22-2907
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7345/14077539605_d356a1f6fd_o.png

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I


Any of those help?

...and a good discussion among pilots experienced with that equipment, that location, and the local weather of that season.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

Go fuck yourself, red. Everybody with half a brain or better and his dog knew EXACTLY what happened within five seconds of hearing about it. Knowing what happened and how to fix it isn't the problem here.

What I hate to hear, though, is somebody reporting that some mechanical part went obsolete or faulty, and somebody else used it, hoping it would hang together for just one more launch. In too many such cases, somebody knew the problem, and could have destroyed the bad part, but didn't. I know, most of us are not rich, but serviceable gear is more important than food. Skip a meal, if it means getting the hardware right. All IMHO.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

Useless goddam idiot.

Dave Hopkins - 2013/04/05 13:00:39 UTC

NO FAA! Those Garage mechanics that designed towing understand way more then the FAA. Plus it's no rocket science. We all need to have it figured out and approach towing very cautiously. We should be able to do it for a lifetime without serious incident. We are making the same mistakes over again at this point. Mt launching is safer I believe because it is only us , No other people or machines to complicate the situation.

Get fucked.

When a 747 goes down hundreds of innocent people die plus people on the ground. A HG, it's just some crazy out having fun.

Goddam fucking right it is. 'Cause anybody who starts showing hints of competence, intelligence, and responsibility gets attacked and permanently exiled from the sport and its culture.

2013/04/05 14:36:55 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar
2013/04/05 17:22:46 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless

GroundEffect - 2013/04/05 13:29:59 UTC

Guys, I don't think Zack...

Do try to use one of the popular spellings of his name: Zach, Zak, Zac.

...died because he was crazy or reckless.

Nah, he died because he was a really cool dude who got along just great with all the other cool dudes and didn't understand that you hafta do a little more homework to fly a hang glider safely and competently than you do to ride a surfboard.

I don't need my runway paved with gold, blacktop is fine with me.

Stick with grass. Pavement scares the crap out of me. And I've seen what it can do.

We deserve a better report...

A BETTER report? A better report than WHAT?

We DID get a pretty good account of the events but as far as the powers that be are concerned this was just an inexplicable freak accident that we'll never be able to understand to any significant degree and there hasn't been the slightest hint of an advisory or recommendation for what do differently to guard against a rerun.

and understanding as to what really was the cause.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Instead we are moving on and got nothing from this fatality and others.

Welcome to hang gliding in 2013.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Davis Straub - 2013/04/05 15:24:07 UTC

Paved? OMG that totally sucks.

Grass on the other hand...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


No problem.

I am very careful in Zapata and Big Spring with paved runways.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

Local Regulations for the 2007 Big Spring, Texas
World Hang Gliding Championships
(Approved by CIVL Plenary 3rd February 2007)

Organized by David Glover, Quest Air and Flytec USA, 6548
Groveland Airport Road, Groveland, Florida 34736

---

Weaklinks

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line:

http://www.cortlandline.com/catalog/braid.html

and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle. The tow forces on the weaklink will be roughly divided in half by this placement. Pilots will be shown how to tie the weaklink so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength.

http://blog.4herrings.com/

BJ Herring - 2011/08/11

Zapata World Record Encampment

Stalwart of the WRE and friend Pete Lehmann let his knee have an affair with the runway. Needless to say it was short and dirty and needed antibiotics as the bone made contact.

Weak links were going like hotcakes so we doubled them up. On my Atos, I had my only break right as one hand let go of the cart so I held on like crazy to the other side and skidded to a stop.

As much as I didn't like it, a few of the yanks between me and the Dragonfly were like an accidental wheelie on a dirt bike (2 stroke) and would have broken the single links for sure.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4931
Zapata

Pete Lehmann - 2011/06/24

Blood on the Tracks

BJ Herring's intention was to attempt a gigantic world-record distance triangle of 260 miles, Mike Barber needed to test fly his new glider locally, while the Brazilians too wanted to do some gear-sorting and experience the tow operation. In the end, the soft lift and constant cross wind resulted in BJ's triangle being truncated into an out'n'back to Laredo (circa 80 miles), Mike's test flight proved his glider's pitch to be badly out of trim, something that may have contributed to his belly-flop landing on the runway, and the Brazilians had a bunch of broken weak links, part of an unusual number that have been experienced here.

And then there's my weak link break. I had been looking forward to attempting an unusual eighty mile flight to the south east along the Mexican border towards McAllen. But the instant I came off the cart my weak link broke. That shouldn't have been a problem as I had good speed to transition to a landing. However, I had zipped up my harness a bit too far and couldn't unzip it in the seconds available to me.

Still in my harness, I opted to belly land on the runway. Unfortunately the repaved runway has an extraordinarily coarse texture, that of a heavy grit sand paper, which resulted in my harness and knee being shredded. The harness can be fixed with Shoe Goo, but the knee required three stitches to pull together the resulting mess. The doctor who treated me at the clinic was sufficiently impressed by it to take some pictures for his colleagues. I was extraordinarily lucky, and can walk well and should be flying in a couple of days.

Pete Lehmann - 2011/06/25

The morning began with Zapata's characteristic clouds and a perhaps undue general optimism. With my bandaged leg I had decided to take a mental health vacation, but David and I went to the field to help the others fly.

You really wanna be careful on pavement when your mandatory Davis Links are increasing the safety of the towing operation.

You apparently miss the point (is this even possible?).

I dunno, Davis. Maybe if you'd answer Zack C's questions on these issues...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/19 03:13:45 UTC

Yup. The orange string used for tandems at Wallaby. Has been for years. I use it also. 200 lbs.

Zack C - 2013/02/19 05:35:59 UTC

Any chance this stuff will be allowed at Big Spring this year?

...we could start making a little progress in some of the discussions.

The FAA is closing down 150 towers and now you want them to come out to some grass strip and tramp around in the mud?

No, I just want them to read the statements that have been publicly circulated, revoke the certifications of Russell, Paul, Lauren, and Mark, and shut US hang glider aerotowing down for six months or so while some some understandings get worked out.

GroundEffect - 2013/04/05 17:41:52 UTC

Davis Straub - 2013/04/05 12:29:09 UTC

Maybe the FAA could also pave our runways with gold.

Davis, sorry I guess I missed your point about the FAA.
Someone needs to give us an accurate account as to what happened. People are DYING. I had started aerotowing, no one has told me if you get yourself into that situation just kiss your butt goodbye.

Of course not. An appropriate weak link will very clearly provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for that form of towing. And besides, if you just stay inside the Cone of Safety it won't even come to you needing the weak link to increase the safety of the towing operation.

Tim Dyer - 2013/04/05 18:21:32 UTC
Las Vegas

Simple, dont tow in thermic conditions dont drive a car, dont skateboard, ski, snowboard , live while your alive.

Yeah, that was Zack Marzec's approach to aviation...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


And for the past couple of months he hasn't been much of a threat to the gene pool.

We need to keep the FAA out of what we do.

"WE" need to keep total fucking assholes like YOU way the hell out of what "WE" do.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Davis Straub - 2013/04/05 19:12:56 UTC

Well, we have as much information as is possible at the moment.

At the moment? This moment two months and three days after Zack Marzec's Quest Link dumped him into a fatal whipstall? So what information do you think Quest has been suppressing all this time and why are they doing it?

But it certainly is possible to have a through investigation if the USHPA wanted to get involved in doing them.

Oh yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

Let's get USHGA involved. Maybe Dr. Trisa Tilletti and the Towing Committee.

They would be the appropriate body, not the FAA.

Yeah. They'd be the appropriate body. They're experts at writing the lunatic fiction that always gets everybody's criminally negligent asses of the hooks.

In Canada, Martin Henry has done a number of these investigations (when the regular public has been involved as per tandems) at the behest of the Canadian Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association.

Yeah, wasn't he the guy that determined that Jon Orders failed to hook his passenger in at Mount Woodside about a year ago. That was some ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT work.

I suggest that as you are the interested party, that you call up Robin or Martin at the USHPA and ask them have the USHPA hire someone like Martin (perhaps Joe)...

Joe who? Gregor? Fuckin' goddam Ridgely insider waste of space.

...to carry out an investigation.

So people like Martin and Joe didn't participate in any of the discussions on this one because nobody was paying them for their expertise?

Fuck you - and them.

In the meantime, I am not the slightest bit concerned about this accident having any affect on my aerotowing.

And you've never given half a flying fuck what effect any bullshit policy or junk equipment any of you Flight Park Mafia pigfuckers have perpetrated on the public does to anyone so nobody else should be either.