instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28727
Easiest sites to learn foot launch.

oden - 2013/03/29 17:27:39 UTC
New Hampshire

Not all landing area are going to be wide open like the aerotow field across the road from MS. In some cases, when things don't go as planned you will have to land in something that you would end up calling a postage stamp. Get used to landing in small areas, get used to setting up to land in small areas.

And get used to not EVER doing anything stupid enough to need to.

You won't find a place any better than Morningside for making you a great pilot.

Positive about that? There are several people here on Kite Strings who might beg to differ.

No one else has the facility. Morningside is world renowned for a reason...

Hang gliding in general sucks so much that it's pretty easy to stand out.

...it isn't about Jeff... it's about the facility. You won't find anyplace like Morningside anywhere else.

And...

http://ozreport.com/11.126
The Exxtacy landing accident at Morningside

Robert S. Poulios - 2007/06/25

I got to Morningside around noon yesterday (2007/06/24) and saw lots of people around a glider lying on the aerotow field grass. Police sirens and two ambulances were coming in behind me. Here's what I heard or saw:

- Pilot had just aerotowed and was coming in for landing. Winds were switchy, West then NW @ 10-12 with gusts.

- Pilot was not landing downwind, but heading mostly West on approach.

- Glider did flip, either near ground or when touching down.

- Pilot was conscious but could not move arms and/or legs.

- Green "Life Star" helicopter arrived approximately a half hour later. Took pilot to Dartmouth-Hitchcock Hospital in Hanover/Lebanon, New Hampshire. (The very best hospital around!)

- Pilot's wife (Debbie) was extremely distraught. She had videotaped flight but turned it off as he was coming in for expected uneventful landing.

- Later saw Mike Onorato's glider - his Exxtacy rigid wing. Both wing sections seemed intact, but one downtube was broken and the carbon fiber base bar was completely severed at each end.

...a totally awesome place for...

Debbie Onorato - 2007/06/27

Dear Micki and Al,

I am at the trauma center in Lebanon, New Hampshire called Dartmouth Hitchcock and I found their computer. I thought I would write and let you know how much I appreciate your email.

Mike is still in the ICU since Sunday. He is confirmed as being quadriplegic. I was informed in the ER on Sunday, but hoped 48 hours would maybe make the doctors wrong.

I cannot believe this nightmare. I know we will deal with this and I am grateful that it looks like he will not need a permanent ventilator. He has been trying hard since yesterday and they hope to take it out today.

Right now they are inserting something for protection from blood clots. I am planning on staying with him up here as long as my job and finances allow. He will eventually move to Gaylord Rehab in Wallingford, Connecticut.

Life as we knew it has changed forever and it was in an instant. He had a great flight and I watched and videotaped his landing. It was a good landing and I turned off the camera and then it happened about ten feet up.

...practicing standup landings.

You take it for what it is worth... it has extreme high value for teaching a pilot how to fly and giving you the chance to work on it without having to throw you off a mountain site when you aren't ready to yet.

Like Chris:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_yTHPgNxsk

05-03223
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7411/14165628916_bbdc682e28_o.png


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5120/14188732974_08536f5037_o.png
08-43827

here?

I know of several people that have come from Ellenville that had been thrown off the mountain and hated it. They got talked into coming to MS after almost giving up flying and fell in love with flying instead. The reason... the facility. Use it for what it is worth. Let it make you a better pilot or you'll be bound to end up regretting it later on.

Okay, so maybe the Big O Loop out in California may come close to comparing but it hasn't been around anywhere near as long as Morningside has.

And DO be sure to ask them why:

- after the rest of The Industry zeroed in on 130 pound fishing line as the optimal standard aerotow weak link as a result of hundreds of thousands of tows worth of trial and error to determine that it met its expectation of breaking as early as possible in lockout situations but being strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence, they suddenly jumped to 200 without flight testing 140, 150, 160, and 180

- no one from Morningside has seen fit to comment on whether Zack Marzec would've been more or less killed on their 200

Brad Barkley - 2013/03/29 18:05:07 UTC

The tragic death of one pilot is no reason to dismiss an entire method of launch.

- Launching into thermal conditions on a Rooney Link without a keel attachment to trim the glider properly? It goddam bloody well IS.
- Since when did we get the number of aerotow deaths down to one?

Or, to put it another way, no method of launch is any safer or more dangerous than another.

Name a SINGLE other fatality in the entire history of hang gliding in which there's no official fucking CLUE what went wrong and no recommendation whatsoever to reduce the likelihood of a rerun.

All of them have their own variables...

Like maybe pro towing and weak link rating?

...and required skill set.

Yeah asshole?
- What's the SKILL SET Zack needed a little more work on to be able to handle that one safely?
- And how long do think it'll take johhnn to get up to adequate speed?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28727
Easiest sites to learn foot launch.

Tom Galvin - 2013/03/30 16:32:35 UTC

Southwest Colorado has at least a dozen of these sites on BLM and Forest Service land. You can can camp at most of them and many don't have cactus. Just expect an hours drive to get to a store because you will be in the middle of nowhere.

And for the love of god, don't EVER do a lift and tug before running off of any of these places...

http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4258
HG accident in Vancouver

Tom Galvin - 2012/10/31 22:17:21 UTC

I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.

It gives a false sense of security.

Hey Tom, how's tricks? I don't believe I heard you weighing in on the Zack Marzec fatality? Any thoughts? Or are you as completely baffled as everyone else?

Asshole.

Lee - 2013/03/30 23:07:42 UTC
Massachusetts

I appreciate your concerns and honesty johhnn.

Yeah Lee... Honesty is so much of a rare commodity in this sport that it merits commendation, doesn't it?

Morningside is a great place to learn when the conditions are good. If you are uncomfortable with the idea of crossing the road at Morningside then stay with the 150. The road is actually uphill from the target field which can also be another factor when setting up your landing.

If you have the time and money I would seriously consider doing a few tandem tows. Tandem towing has a great safety record.

Luen Miller - 1996/10

Towing behind a Saber trike, the two pilots began a tandem flight that was to be part of a Tandem 1 sign-off. The student was acting as pilot in command, with the instructor as passenger. Conditions were reportedly calm, warm, very humid, and post-frontal.

After a normal roll-out that was slightly extended by the trike pilot to allow the tandem glider to achieve more airspeed before liftoff, the flight began normally. The trike pilot observed the glider behind him to be slightly low and slightly off line. He reported the climb to be "a little slow, but normal for the weight."

Witnesses on the ground saw the glider yaw slightly to the left some time soon after it came off the dolly, remain slightly off line, then begin to roll harder to that side. At this point the tug pilot attempted to release, couldn't, and tried slowing to let the glider catch up, then speeding up to try to break the weak link. At some point the glider either seems to have entered a hard, arcing locked-out turn into the ground. There is a possibility that the glider stalled in a steep turn as the line or weak link broke. The maximum altitude estimated for the steep turn ranges from 50 to 150 feet.

The glider hit the ground hard at a steep angle, left wing first. One pilot was apparently killed on impact, the other died a short time later.

Bill Bryden - 1999/06

During the tug's roll-out for the second launch attempt, the tug pilot observed the glider clear the runway dust and then begin a left bank with no immediate correction. At that point he noticed that the launch cart was hanging below the glider and immediately released his end of the 240 foot towline. The tug never left the ground and tug pilot watched the glider continue a hard bank to the left achieving an altitude of approximately 25 feet. Impact was on the left wing and then the nose of the glider. Rob was killed immediately from severe neck and head trauma. Rob's body likely cushioned much of the student's impact.

http://ozreport.com/6.178
Update on Tandem Accident

Martin Henry - 2002/09/04

Update on Tandem Accident

The tug pilot indicated that he had just completed a shallow right turn and the tow was "normal" then there was a sudden increase in tow pressure at which point the weak link at the tugs end failed. (The force of the event bent the upper unsupported section of the tugs bridal attachment point, at which point the tugs weak link failed).

At this point in time it is not known why the hang glider's weak link did not fail. Inspection of the hang glider's tow components confirm that the weak link was present and had not failed. (At the crash site the weak link was found released from the upper release, this may or may not be the result of being released by either of the pilots but may have been the result of releasing at impact).

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC

The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.

The pilot can give you control of the wing and in one twenty minute flight you will get more experience feeling a glider turn than you would in fifty flights from MSFP's 150.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Axel Banchero - 2009/06/20 04:57:01 UTC

I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28727
Easiest sites to learn foot launch.

John Jaugilas (jj colorado) - 2013/04/03 05:42:23 UTC
Colorado

A tandem flight or two would help you out a lot. Plus the instructor is right there to tell you what is going well or poorly.

And...

The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

...you'll be nice and high and in smooth air so nothing will really matter.

Scooter towing is Not Aero towing.

No, scooter towing is used to start acclimating you to the ideas that:
- flying with an inaccessible release actuator is no BFD
- the only person capable of terminating a tow is the guy whose ass isn't on the line
- you have nothing to fear from a Rooney Link

And of course...

- hook-in checks aren't really necessary because...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3729/13148945555_cea849a8eb_o.png


http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17820
Launching unhooked with scooter tow

Mark Dowsett - 2009/11/14 00:00:30 UTC

I must admit... this has happened to us three times this year. We've just started scooter towing and it's surprisingly easy to do. We're all dolly launched aerotow pilots so hooking in is something we take for granted. I was the scooter operator each time and recognized it right away as soon as the glider started rising up (but the pilot didn't). Luckily we were only planning on doing low-and-slow tows and thus no swift full tension tow.

Each time it happened, the pilot's priority was always hooking up the towline as they step into the control frame. I wonder why that is...? I mean, we always hook in to the glider first when dolly launching, and then worry about the towline.

Lesson learned (all without incident)

...the consequences of unhooked scooter tow launches are almost always pretty negligible.

Similar and both have some risk, but scooter towing is much easier for someone learning and it opens up lots of areas to learn so if you find a scooter tow operation near you check it out.

Or, if you're lucky, Mitch Shipley will bring his operation to you.

johhnn - 2013/04/03 11:04:38 UTC

Thanks. I appreciate all the feedback.

All the feedback from people whom Jack allows to post anyway.

Regarding darbb's comment on scooter towing: I'm not against it or towing in general.

Do you understand it enough to be able to make a valid comment on it?

It's just not for me at this point.

Me either, I'm afraid. It occurs to me that from my first tow, 1980/11/14, Yarnall winch, to my last, 2008/10/12, Dragonfly, I NEVER ONCE had a really safe tow:
- half or more tension routed through the pilot;
- release blowable with both hands on the basetube; and
- safe weak link.

I do like the idea of the scooter tow since the first flights can be short, low and you can gradually work your way up as you gain skill. And there are other advantages as well. Kind of like working your way up the hill at Morningside, which is what I intend to keep doing for now.

Thanks again.
John

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

John Pettinato (EJPettinato) - 2013/04/09 15:48:03 UTC
Vermont

I've been flying along time and some years forty plus individuals perished in one year in our sport. Having the FAA involved wouldn't advance us in my opinion.

- Not as long as you've got USHGA shits like Dr. Trisa Tilletti running interference for The Industry.
- What will then? We've got over three decades of modern era hang gliding and all we're doing is spinning our wheels.

I do believe that a protocol should be in place at every flight park and site regarding catastrophic events such as Zack's accident.

There is.
- Blame it on the dead guy if there's any possible way to do it.
- Call it an inexplicable freak accident if there isn't.

I was at Wallaby the day of Zack's incident and it wasn't a ripping day...

No...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/03 02:45:02 UTC

For now I will say that it appears to have been a fluke accident. Weather conditions were very benign with light winds and blue skies and the glider was in good airworthy condition.

...shit.

...I've flown in much stronger conditions.

Yeah, who hasn't.

There was some talk about the possibility that Zack may have had his weak link doubled over making it stronger than a normal weak link.

- What's a "NORMAL" weak link?

- What makes it a "NORMAL" weak link?

- Of course there was. That was a favorite strategy of Donnell's. Whenever one of his Hewett Links failed to infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow whenever the tow line tension exceeded the limit for safe operation...

Donnell Hewett - 1983/09

From your description, you may have been flying with a double loop or something else that breaks at several hundred pounds. A break such as this could cause a whip stall and crash. You may have been in more danger than you realized.

...he'd suggest to his adoring zombies that the weak link was accidentally doubled. That saved him and his adoring zombies from stopping to question whether he and his Skyting "Theory" were totally full of shit.

I've been told that some comp pilots who use a pro tow set-up do this.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/9.032
The Worlds - weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2005/02/07

For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

They're the ones who tend not to have any trouble on tow.

Not sure once the weak link breaks if someone could tell if that procedure was done.

Every bit as easily as if it hasn't broken - and double loops of Greenspot on solo gliders never break.

This would help explain the severe whip stall that occurred.

What explains the severe whipstall that occurred...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

...was the rope break / premature release.

Maybe Davis could shed more insight on this topic?

Maybe Davis and anybody who still gives him the slightest bit of credibility could go fuck themselves and stay the hell away from hang gliding.

Jim Gaar - 2013/04/09 16:01:40 UTC

I've been flying along time and some years forty plus individuals perished in one year in our sport.

With all due respect I'm sayin this is NOT a true statement, not even close...

Yeah?

Robert V. Wills - 1980/04

1979 HANG GLIDING FATALITIES
An Update

HANG GLIDING FATALITIES
(from RVW records)

Year - US - Foreign - Total

1971 - 02 - 01 - 03
1972 - 04 - 00 - 04
1973 - 09 - 01 - 10
1974 - 40 - 10 - 50
1975 - 33 - 13 - 46
1976 - 43 - 40 - 83
1977 - 24 - 47 - 71
1978 - 32 - 54 - 86
1979 - 24 - 22 - 46
(incomplete)

Robert V. Wills - 1881/06

1980 FATALITIES UPDATED -
The Same Old Refrain

Our last summary of fatal accidents was published in September of last year, both in Hang Gliding and Glider Rider. At that time we tabulated fifteen fatal accidents for 1980 and anticipated that this was only a down payment on the actual total for the year.

Unfortunately, we were right. We now have another 36 fatalities for 1980, bringing the total in our records to 51, both U.S. and foreign. Interestingly, the breakdown between U.S. and foreign is 26 U.S., 25 foreign for 1980.

Go fuck yourself, Rodie.

Davis Straub - 2013/04/09 16:07:07 UTC

Almost all comp pilots use the regular 130 lb loop (which adds 20%) for aerotowing.

Yeah Davis...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

I wonder why that is.

I have a 200 lb loop (plus 40 pounds for the loop) that was/is used for tandems at Wallaby.

- Where's your test data for those figures - asshole?
- What's being accomplished with those numbers?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Don Arsenault - 2013/04/09 16:27:05 UTC
Toronto

John Pettinato - 2013/04/09 15:48:03 UTC

This would help explain the severe whip stall that occurred.

Please explain.

The guy's totally fucking clueless. And there's NO EXCUSE for making such a totally moronic statement as that after all the discussions we've had, the scores of solid explanations that have been given, and the accounts, reports, and video examples that posted. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.

Mike Lake - 2013/04/09 18:00:10 UTC

Arr yes, a doubled up weak-link... Whoever would have thought of that get out of jail card.

Anybody who wants to bolster this third of a century long total bullshit hang gliding weak link theory.

Or maybe it's a case that any weak-link that allows for an acceptable climb rate in desirable thermic conditions can indeed get you into serious trouble when it breaks, however good you are and whatever action you take.

This is of course in complete contrast to the "Non event, nothing more than an inconvenience, pilot should be able to cope else he must be crap" way of thinking.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4593
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2005/02/08 19:22:49 UTC

What is the big issue? Re-launching? Oh, the wasted time! Oh, the hassle! Oh, the embarrassment! These are sure preferrable to Oh Shit!

Paul Hurless - 2013/04/09 18:09:54 UTC

Jim Gaar - 2013/04/09 16:01:40 UTC

With all due respect I'm sayin this is NOT a true statement, not even close...

Those kinds of numbers were back in the 70's. 1974 was listed in a USHGA report as the year the number maxed out at 40.

- For the U.S.
- And he didn't limit his comment to U.S.
- And the world totals more than doubled that in 1976 and 1978.
- And we shouldn't give a rat's ass about WHERE people are getting killed.
- (Although I'm always extra happy when it's Quest, Ridgely, Manquin, or Lookout.)

Wanna say anything about the SUBSTANCE of this discussion? Just kidding.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

michael170 - 2013/04/09 20:42:10 UTC

http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/WeakLinks.html

Diev Hart - 2013/04/09 22:01:00 UTC

My issue with that page is it says the weaklink will break in a lockout. In most cases the glider pounds into the ground before enough force builds (slow) to break it.....and they go on to say if they don't release in a lockout that it should break from the high force....

What that page says is...

Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically and something will give - preferably the weak link.

That is, of course, wrong for payout - unless you're Ryan Voight - but the implication is that they're talking about fixed line towing, like static or aero, and in that case they're close enough.

But that force builds too slow most times and most times this all happens low so most cases the glider smashes the ground.

- Once the force builds up to the strength of the weak link the weak link is gonna blow.

- And it doesn't give a flying fuck how slow or fast was in reaching that point.

- Would somebody please deal with this asshole so we don't hafta keep listening with this bullshit over and over and over.

- Yes. Dynamic Flight DOES make the point on their Lockouts page...

http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/Lockouts.html

...that the weak link isn't particularly concerned about keeping the glider...

On aerotow a weak link will limit the duration of a lockout because the short rope and lack of direct tension control gives less scope for the glider to diverge from the appropriate flight path - of course you could still hit the ground before the weak link breaks. Moral. Lockout=Release. Now.

...from hitting the ground and that keeping the glider from hitting the ground is the job of the PILOT and his RELEASE (assuming he can find one that WORKS).

GET OFF AT THE FIRST SIGN OF TROUBLE !!!!!

Stuff it, Diev - nobody needs to keep hearing that bullshit.
- It's virtually ALWAYS the wrong call.
- Everybody and his fuckin' dog know when it IS a really bad idea to stay on tow.
- Virtually no one has the equipment to be able to successfully effect an emergency release.

ocoeedagger - 2013/04/09 22:10:51 UTC
Dune Instructor, Outer Banks

fly fly fly

Your idiot buddy CAN'T fly fly fly anymore 'cause he's dead dead dead. And he's dead dead dead 'cause he was stupid stupid stupid and your goddam instructional program is incompetent incompetent incompetent.

And your useless goddam "contribution" to the discussion is an excellent indicator of what I'm talking about.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Jim Gaar - 2013/04/09 23:10:45 UTC

Those kinds of numbers were back in the 70's.

Thank you. I stand corrected...

If you'd do your fuckin' homework and/or knew a goddam thing about hang gliding history you wouldn't need to be corrected quite so much. But the off the scale stupidity thing is incurable anyway and it would be a real good idea for you to keep your mouth shut in any conversation that matters.

And...

Davis Straub - 2013/04/09 23:17:14 UTC

in all aviation the pilot is usually the weakest link.....

...Davis copies and pastes the entire Dynamic Flight weak link article - which is pretty much a total flat out contradiction of the bullshit he posted about his position on weak links on his forum shortly before he threatened to ban people of the Dynamic Flight persuasion locked down the discussions. And...

2013/04/09 23:29:43 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar

...gets three thumbs up for his "efforts" from asshole Rodie.

Davis Straub - 2013/04/09 23:27:31 UTC

Hook in at 210 pounds. Glider weighs 75 pounds. Total 285 pounds.

Protow bridle splits the load in half (approximately, with normal bridle lengths), 130 lb weaklink material, in a loop, makes 156 pounds times 2 = 312 pounds. 1.1 G.

- And...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaVg_bzK3Aw

08-0706
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8479/28996303943_ca3a0be282_o.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIGsgNFRWM


- Where are you getting this 156 pounds bullshit from and how come it's twenty percent higher than what people whose reputations AREN'T riding on 130 pound Greenspot being the perfect one-size-fits-all standard aerotow weak link get?

200 lb weaklnk in a loop is 240 pounds times 2 = 480 pounds.

So you don't need to actually TEST the two hundred. You can just DECLARE it - and any other piece of string somebody pulls out of his ass - to be twenty percent over what it says on the spool.

1.7 G.

Whoa! Dude! You're starting to get up to the max. Better think about backing off a bit before you get your wings ripped off.

michael170 - 2013/04/10 00:25:29 UTC

Weak links are rated as a function of the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider, not your hook-in weight.

Davis Straub - 2013/04/10 00:34:05 UTC

I understand that, but I decided to deal with the actual real world.

- And...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

Force everyone else to deal with any real world you and your douchebag Quest buddies feel like pulling out of their asses.

- Meaning you're not using your weak link to prevent structural failure...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/15 01:53:11 UTC

My only point in posting the video was to demonstrate that weak links cannot prevent attitudes that could be catastrophic near the ground.

Davis Straub - 2013/02/15 02:04:29 UTC

I can't imagine anyone arguing that they would.

You're using it to prevent attitudes that could be catastrophic near the ground.

Davis Straub - 2013/04/10 00:34:49 UTC

BTW, do you know what the tow forces are on an aerotow?

michael170 - 2013/04/10 00:47:47 UTC

Lift, drag, thrust, and gravity.

A 914 Dragonfly pulls me and my HPAT 158 - 320 pounds - at 125 pounds regular flavor and 155 turbo. When pro toads blow off behind Russell six times in a row their Davis Links are calling it quits at around 63 pounds.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Davis Straub - 2013/04/10 01:20:26 UTC

Values!

How 'bout whatever it is for a Davis Link at the worst possible time, when...

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...

...the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation?

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


Works for me.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

michael170 - 2012/08/17 17:01:40 UTC

Zack, let me see if I understand your logic.

You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Mike Lake - 2013/04/10 10:18:26 UTC

Jim Rooney has described the above...

Davis's 2013/04/09 23:17:14 paste post of the article at:
http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/WeakLinks.html

...as "a load of shit". Do you agree or disagree?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Davis Straub - 2013/04/10 12:34:28 UTC

I disagree that Jim Rooney has said that. :-)

Great, Davis. The more people see you disagreeing with indisputable reality...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846 UTC
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC

Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.

...the more your credibility goes down the toilet where it belongs and the more hope there is for the future of the sport.

Davis Straub - 2013/04/10 12:35:55 UTC

Does anyone know the value of the force what we experience (the force along the tow line) that we experience on aerotow?

- Why do don't you ask your buddies at Quest who've been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years or Bobby Bailey who's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit?

I've given you numbers for 914 Dragonfly tow tension before...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14221
Tad's release

Tad Eareckson - 2009/01/17 14:06:33 UTC

I've measured in comfortable summer air the tension while behind a 914 at 125 pounds, 155 with the turbocharger kicked in. Thirty extra pounds - big freakin' deal.

It's in one of the many discussions of mine that you've sabotaged and locked.

- If you don't have a fucking clue what the tow tension - not to mention the actual breaking strength of the Sacred Fishing Line - is, then where the hell does an asshole like you get off...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

...dictating standards for everyone?

I realize that there is a range of values.

Yeah Davis. Zero pounds to weak link. Nothing ever gets by a really smart guy...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.