Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

Oops. Thanks. Should've known that - Zack's glider was kingposted.

Sure wish we could get something definitive on the hook-in weight range and glider weight. I would so love it if we could say for sure that he was below the legal range.

P.S. The fact that those motherfuckers haven't given us the hook-in weight range and glider weight is pretty telling.

[Tad Eareckson]

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

What We Can Learn

As usual, not a single goddam thing. We've known for decades how this shit works and how to maximize safety margins and performance but The Industry and its shills like you and Bryden refuse to allow it to happen.

To begin, alteration of our gliders should not be done without full agreement and guidance from the factory or their trained representatives.

Fuck the useless goddam factory shits and their trained douchebags.

- Configuring a glider for aerotow alters the crap out of it. Even if it's configured as optimally as possible it becomes roll unstable as hell.

- Pulling forward from the pilot only and not using an upper bridle attachment to trim the nose down pulls the pilot forward relative to the glider and control frame and demolishes a lot of the top end speed range for which the glider was certified.

- Taking a hand off the basetube of ANY glider - tow or free flight - decertifies it and can instantly translate into a lethal loss of control.

- A release is a CRITICAL component of a towed glider's control system. And configuring such that a hand needs to come off the basetube to blow tow...

The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

...is totally fucking moronic. And people buying books on towing from total fucking morons is totally fucking moronic beyond all description.

- A glider under aerotow is a POWERED AIRCRAFT and when some total fucking moron puts a piece of fishing line which very clearly provides protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for that form of towing the PILOT of that aircraft can have no expectation whatsoever of control and is BEGGING for a whipstall.

Summary...

Both of you assholes had modified your gliders to make them about as dangerous as you could possibly get them without using a hacksaw and/or hammer and the useless goddam factory shits and their trained douchebags were - AND ARE - totally cool with it.

And then your German aerodynamic engineer buddy figured out how to chop his safety margins a fair bit more.

Even with such approval, be aware that the factory might not know how you will be using your equipment.

Bullshit.

- You move the basetube back four inches you lose four inches worth of speed control range. Expressed mathematically it's:

zero minus four equals negative four

Memorize that formula and get back to me when you can come up with a scenario in which that's a good thing.

- "Might not know how you will be using your equipment" my ass. You're gonna be FLYING with it - on and off tow. Notice there's nothing in the owner's manuals about using it for scuba diving.

What a load of total crap.

Changing the pitch range of a glider is a fairly serious matter and should only be done with full understanding of all the effects.

Really Dennis?

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Single-Point Bridle

An optional type of bridle for use by experienced pilots on advanced gliders is the single-point bridle. This bridle consists of the simple shoulder line described above and all towing forces are on the pilot's harness shoulder straps. With this method, the pilot is pulled forward through the control bar somewhat so the control bar is not in its normal trim free flying position.

Doesn't sound like it's all that big a fucking deal to me. Sounds like it's just a trivial matter of having the control bar somewhat out of its normal trim free flying position.

Secondly, over-the-top lockouts are not frequent, but common enough in big-air towing...

What's big-air towing?

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/02

For now I will say that it appears to have been a fluke accident. Weather conditions were very benign with light winds and blue skies and the glider was in good airworthy condition.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

John Pettinato - 2013/04/09 15:48:03 UTC

I was at Wallaby the day of Zack's incident and it wasn't a ripping day, I've flown in much stronger conditions.

Was your guy killed in big-air towing?

I got news for ya, asshole. ALL thermal soarable conditions need to be considered big air.

...that tow pilots should all have a plan to deal with them.

Sure. Just grow longer arms. End of problem.

Think about this:

How sure are you that you want people reading this rot to be THINKING?

When we are lifted well above the tug, the tow system forces becomes similar to surface towing, with the limit of tow force only being the weak link.

Seeing as how we've all got releases that stink on ice and the price for using one is instantly whipping to the side in a wingover maneuver.

The susceptibility to a lockout is increased in this situation.

Thank you SO much for that little tip, Dennis. From now on I'll start doing my best to avoid that situation.

My experience leads me to believe that a strong thermal hitting when low can push you vertically upwards or sideways before you have time to react.

Oh. YOUR *EXPERIENCE* leads you to BELIEVE that? What does your experience lead you to BELIEVE can happen to a glider on final if it gets hit by a rotor, gust front, or dust devil? Fuck your EXPERIENCE.

If this happens when I am low, I fight it as hard as I can until I have clearance to release safely.

What do you do when this happens when you are low and locking out so fast that there's no possibility whatsoever that you'll have the clearance to release safely - as was very nearly the situation in your little adventure with Neal?

Think there's any possibility that...

The pilot launched with his Litespeed and climbed to about forty feet when he encountered a thermal that lifted him well above the tug. After a few moments, the glider was seen to move to the side and rapidly turn nose down to fly into the ground, still on tow, in a classic lockout maneuver.

...your guy never attained the clearance he needed to be able to blow his piece of shit release, instantly whip to the side in a wingover maneuver, and level out and land?

If I am high above the tug, I stay on line with the bar pulled in as far as possible...

Which - for pro toads like you and Davis - ain't all that far.

...and keep myself centered if at all possible.

What do you do if it's NOT at all possible?

I fully expect the tug pilot to release from his end if necessary for safety, but in the case of a malfunction, I would release before endangering the tug.

- I really hope so Dennis. It would be a real treat to see the results of you releasing in a Zack Marzec scenario out of your deep concern for a Dragonfly jockey with broken weak link, wrapped bridle, and overloaded release.

- Me...

Fuck the tug. Our primary responsibilities are to protect our own aircraft. If I see the tug in trouble and can best help him out by releasing I'll do it - IF:
-- he hasn't already (and I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario in which he wouldn't have)
-- it doesn't endanger me

Otherwise... Not my problem.

Likewise if he's going in because of an issue with his plane or mine I expect him and would fully support his decision to immediately dump me without a moment's hesitation out of concern for my situation.

But if he makes a good decision in the interest of my safety while I'm dealing with a situation - like Corey Burk did for Rob Richardson and his passenger - or uses a weak link on his end safer than the legal weak link on my end - like the driver for Jeremiah Thompson and Arlan Birkett - I'm gonna make every possible effort I can to be reincarnated as a hyena, come back, and rip his intestines out while he watches.

- This business about the tug being endangered by the glider in low level emergencies is a load of crap. Neal wasn't the least bit endangered by you when you rocketed up and locked out and your guy's tug wasn't endangered enough to feel the need to dump him while he rocketed up, locked out, and slammed in on tow.

- But if you sleazy motherfuckers were REALLY all that goddam concerned about the fucking tug you'd:
-- tow two point to make it three times as easy to stay in proper position
-- use a release you could use to blow yourselves off before things go totally tits up

To be continued...

[Steve Davy]

P.S. The fact that those motherfuckers haven't given us the hook-in weight range and glider weight is pretty telling.

That tells me that those motherfuckers are too stupid to attach any relevance to such information.

[Tad Eareckson]

Nah, they attach relevance to it. That's why...

- All references to equipment standards were deleted from the USHGA Aerotowing SOPs five days after impact.

- Nobody from Quest, Wallaby, Florida Ridge, Kitty Hawk, Lookout, Manquin, Ridgely, or Cloud 9 participated in any of the discussions.

- Davis:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

-- suddenly abandoned the 200 and announced his renewed allegiance to and support for 130 pound Greenspot lockout protectors
-- locked down all the discussions

- The crash has been written off as an inexplicable freak accident.

And DO NOT FORGET that when I was fitting Paul Tjaden up with a couple of ~400 pound Bridle Links right after idiot fuckin' Lauren popped a Quest Link on an ECC round takeoff straight, level, and smooth he commented:

"Those things are dangerous."

That motherfucker knows EXACTLY what's going on.

[Tad Eareckson]

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

We are taught to release at the first sign of trouble...

Yeah Dennis, we've all heard, read, had shoved down our throats that crap a million times before. But here are the problems...

- On only the RAREST of occasions...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...does your situation get BETTER when you abruptly kill your thrust.

- On the rare occasion when releasing IS the proper response the shit you advertise for your pigfucker buddies in your crappy book...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...doesn't work and/or...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

...can't be accessed.

- The cost of releasing at the first sign of trouble is often...

The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

...instantly whipping to the side in a wingover maneuver or...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop.

...popping up and over into an unplanned semi-loop.

- Sometimes the first sign of trouble is...

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

...being nearly upside down after the lockout is pretty much over - and if you're down low you're dead already.

- Ninety-nine times out of a hundred the first sign of trouble is the focal point of your safe towing system...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11155
Question

Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC

So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.

http://blog.4herrings.com/2011/08/11/zapata-world-record-encampment-wre-2011-parte-dos/
Zapata World Record Encampment (WRE) 2011- Parte Dos | Cloud Base addict

BJ Herring - 2011/08/11

Stalwart of the WRE and friend Pete Lehmann let his knee have an affair with the runway. Needless to say it was short and dirty and needed antibiotics as the bone made contact.

Weak links were going like hotcakes so we doubled them up. On my Atos, I had my only break right as one hand let go of the cart so I held on like crazy to the other side and skidded to a stop.

As much as I didn't like it, a few of the yanks between me and the Dragonfly were like an accidental wheelie on a dirt bike (2 stroke) and would have broken the single links for sure.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

...increasing the safety of the towing operation - and you've already been released and fucked over.

...and I fully support that general policy...

Of course you do - you miserable lying serial killing son of a bitch.

...but in some cases, the trouble happens so fast and is so powerful that a release low would have severe consequences.

How 'bout showing me a few videos of low releases that DON'T have undesirable, serious, or severe consequences?

In my case, I was instantly high above the tug with a strong turn tendency and a release at that point would have been ugly.

No shit. Now why don't you tell us about all the other times you had trouble down low and released with positive or inconsequential results?

The main point for us to understand...

That's OK, Dennis. I don't really need or want any of you pigfuckers telling me what I need to understand. And the most important thing for us to understand is to never trust any of you pigfuckers.

...is that we must gain our experience in gradually increasing challenges so we can respond correctly when faced with different emergencies.

Really?

- So you're saying that the reason your aerodynamic engineer buddy bought the farm was because he hadn't gained his experience in gradually increasing challenges so he could respond correctly when faced with his first and last launch emergency?

- And the reason your lucky ass came out smelling like a rose...

I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a twenty-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.

...was because you HAD gained your experience in gradually increasing challenges so you could...
-- hang on
-- resist the tendency to roll to the side as much as possible with the bar to your knees
-- quickly release before the lockout to the side progressed
-- go along for the ride as your glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver
-- clear the buildings
-- level out at a foot and a half and land?

What kind of training program would you recommend for a Hang Two to gradually work up to that skill set which served you so well?

Fuckin' lying asshole.

It should be made clear again that a weak link will not prevent lockouts...

Yeah Dennis...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.

Let's make that clear. VERY clear.

...and a hook knife is useless in such a situation...

Really?

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

One drawback to single point is that it is not easy to incorporate a secondary release so a hook knife must be handy in flight.

...for the second you reach for it you are in a compromised attitude.

But you'll be JUST FINE...

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

...the second you reach for any of the Industry Standard crap you advertise in your piece of shit book.

To be continued...

[Tad Eareckson]

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

Thirdly, experienced pilots should be aware that towing only from the shoulders reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout.

If they're EXPERIENCED PILOTS surely they know this already, what with...
- the massive experience of the aerotow professionals and their HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows
- extensive scholarly texts on hang glider towing such as the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden

Like many pilots, I prefer the freedom of towing from the shoulders...

Ya know what I prefer, Dennis...

I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed.

I prefer the freedom of being able to get the fuckin' glider back down behind the tug when I've got the bar stuffed to my knees so I don't kill myself like your aerodynamic engineer buddy and Zack Marzec did - and you came damn close to doing.

But I most heartily support your freedom to choose to configure so that it's physically impossible to get the fuckin' glider back down behind the tug when you've got the bar stuffed to your knees so you kill yourself like your aerodynamic engineer buddy and Zack Marzec did. I so do enjoy reading reports of inexplicable freak accidents and it's been a while since the last one.

...but I am aware that I must react quicker to pitch excursion.

So this is all about REACTION TIME and SPEED. How very odd that of the three incidents under discussion nobody seemed to know that.

Sometimes reactions aren't quick enough and emergency procedures must be followed.

Yeah Dennis, this is all about experience and reaction time. Absolutely nothing to do with the control limitations of a glider with the pilot being pulled a foot and a half forward of normal control position.

It seems to me that we shouldn't be overly eager to encourage lower airtime pilots to adopt this more advanced method of aerotowing.

But it's totally cool to tell higher airtime pilots to adopt this more totally fucking moronic method of aerotowing because they've all got superior reaction times.

Normally, we tow topless gliders with about a third VG pulled to lighten pitch forces and increase speed. Intermediate gliders are often towed as much as half VG pulled for the same reasons. Pilots must understand these matters when aerotowing.

Really? If they MUST understand these matters when aerotowing how come there's no mention whatsoever of them in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden? How come it just says:

Towing Aloft 1998/01

If over-response and oscillation are not a problem, tow with the VG in full the full-loose position. This preserves easy handling, especially if a low altitude release and immediate landing occur.

Finally, I think it is appropriate to remind all dealers, instructors and pilots in general to inform their customers and friends that the new topless gliders exhibit the notable bar movement with VG travel as explained above.

Why do dealers, instructors, and pilots in general NEED to be reminded about this? Aren't the dealers and instructors pretty knowledgeable and conscientious about staying on top of the technology, making sure important information is included in owner's manuals, and keeping their customers and students properly informed?

As such, it is normal to take off and land with a quarter VG on in order to place the bar in a position to roll easier and to reduce the pitch pressure. It is much easier to maintain safe control speed with the VG pulled a quarter.

Yeah...

I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a twenty-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.

Sure...

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

Whatever you say, Dennis.

To be continued...

[Tad Eareckson]

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

The pilot launched with his Litespeed and climbed to about forty feet when he encountered a thermal that lifted him well above the tug.

Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike. I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed.

There is not a single recommendation of reference to the use of windsocks, streamers, wind indicators of any kind in either the report or Towing Aloft. The reason for this conspicuous absence is to protect from liability tow operators who've already killed people, like Brad Anderson and Eric Aasletten, or will in the future kill people, like Mike Haas, by launching them into dangerous conditions.

After a few moments, the glider was seen to move to the side and rapidly turn nose down to fly into the ground, still on tow, in a classic lockout maneuver.

Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany.

I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.

There is NO MENTION of weak link strength, weak link type, glider flying weight, glider capacity, pounds, Gs, anywhere in the report.

The German guy wouldn't have been any WORSE off if the focal point of his safe towing system had popped at any time and could possibly have come out smelling like a rose if the timing of a pop had been really lucky.

Dennis...

I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.

Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany.

...would've been been fucked. And this asshole who wrote:

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.

would have us believe that the thought of his single loop of 130 pound Greenspot doing to him the same thing that Zack Marzec's did NEVER ONCE crossed his mind - during or after the event.

If the German guy's weak link had been 1.1 Gs...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Three recent aerotowing accidents have occurred--one fatal. The common thread in all three was a lockout and the use of a much too heavy weak link. Tandem gliders are much less responsive than smaller gliders and the pilot in command often has a less than ideal position on the control bar. The situation shouldn't be compromised by an over-strength weak link.

...Dennis would've had a field day - even if the tug's had put the glider at 0.8 Gs. But since that obviously wasn't the case...

It should be made clear again that a weak link will not prevent lockouts...

...Dennis just flatly contradicts what he's published in Towing Aloft.

After a few moments, the glider was seen to move to the side and rapidly turn nose down to fly into the ground, still on tow, in a classic lockout maneuver.

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a twenty-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

The release failed to operate in this case, and Chris was fatally injured.

Towing Aloft 1998/01

The towline release is a critically important piece of equipment. It is the device which frees you from the towline and it must be failure-proof. Numerous designs have evolved over the years--some very good and some not so good. Unfortunately, releases are items that many pilots feel they can make at home or adapt from something they have seen at the hardware store. Two fatalities have occurred in the past five years directly related to failures of very poorly constructed and maintained releases. For the sake of safety, only use releases that have been designed and extensively tested by reputable manufacturers.

The German guy had a totally inoperable release. While EVERYBODY actually IN a critical situation recognizes that releasing at the first sign of trouble is...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...almost always a REALLY BAD idea NOBODY wants to slam in still on tow and locked out. That guy wanted to blow tow early in his lockout but had no capacity to do so and Dennis almost paid for operating his stupid bent pin Bailey "release" with his life.

And we're supposed to believe that Dennis wasn't really wishing he had had a button in hand or a string or clip in his teeth when he was locking out.

Towing Aloft 1998/01

Listed below are various types of releases available with their attributes and applications.

All of the releases listed below stink on ice and would've been equally useless and dangerous in those two situations respectively.

Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany.

But he's still selling his book which includes:

Towing Aloft 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

...'cause that way no asshole tow operator, like Sam Kellner, can ever be faulted and/or considered negligent and liable for dumping and killing someone, like Terry Mason.

The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive.

And we don't hear that Neal or any other tug driver has ever been pulled nose down by a glider. And that gives license to all these motherfuckers to use front end weak links lighter than what's on the gliders and gives them even more leave to make good decisions in the interest of our safety, kill us, and walk away without a care in the world.

Thirdly, experienced pilots should be aware that towing only from the shoulders reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout. Like many pilots, I prefer the freedom of towing from the shoulders, but I am aware that I must react quicker to pitch excursion. Sometimes reactions aren't quick enough and emergency procedures must be followed. It seems to me that we shouldn't be overly eager to encourage lower airtime pilots to adopt this more advanced method of aerotowing.

And (yeah, I know, once again) the point is made HERE (but nowhere in Towing Aloft) that the "more advanced method" of towing only from the shoulders reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout but, hell, let's keep doing it anyway because:

- it gives us FREEDOM

- we can be...

http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report

Steve Wendt - 2005/05/29

This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air.

...properly trained to do it safely at a short Blue Sky clinic

- we can react quickly enough to stay safe

- when we can't react quickly enough to stay safe we can implement emergency procedures to keep us safe anyway

That way whenever a pro toad ends up in a crumpled heap back on the runway it will always have been his fault for being a crappy pilot - and never because we continually chose to put people up into potentially dangerous conditions with lethal equipment and in lethal configurations.

[Tad Eareckson]

There's something of a prequel to this one starting at:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post4146.html#p4146
and going on through the next seven posts through:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post4154.html#p4154

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/28 07:03:15 UTC

http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/WeakLinks.html

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC

Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.

As opposed to Rooney's decade long position that 130 pound Greenspot is the perfect one-size-fits-all lockout protector because this is what "we" use and "we" won't allow you to use anything else.

So let's take a look at this drivel / load of shit...

Weak Links

in all aviation the pilot is usually the weakest link.....

Yes. And/But...

- A PILOT:
-- understands what a weak link is
-- doesn't go up with a weak link much under one and a half or over two Gs
-- doesn't go up behind something that's using a lighter weak link than he is

- In any tow operation there are people at both ends of the string and the person who's the effective Pilot In Command of the glider isn't always the person at the back end.

The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits.

Yes. And you can pretty much stop right there. Tost...

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

...has little more to say on the issue.

Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically and something will give - preferably the weak link.

Whatever gives IS, by definition, THE weak link. Might not be the thing you had in mind, however.

Given that a certified glider will take 6-10G positive a 1.5G weak link as opposed to a standard 1G weak link...

Who says that one G is "standard"?
What's the "thinking" behind the one G standard?
Why isn't one G standard in sailplanes?

...should not significantly increase the risk of structural failure.

Should not SIGNIFICANTLY increase the risk of structural failure? I got news for ya... On a six G glider going from one to one and a half Gs doesn't increase the risk of structural failure AT ALL. Kinda like a one and a half pound snowball doesn't knock down a charging Grizzly any better than a one pound snowball does.

It will however significantly decrease the probability of an unwanted weak link break.

Yes. It'll pretty much eliminate it.

Consider a standard tow force of up to 0.8G.

There's no such thing as a standard tow force. And throw in some thermal turbulence and there's REALLY no such thing as a standard tow force.

A 1G weak link gives a 25% strength margin.

Using 0.8 Gs - in smooth air, yes.

A 1.5G weak link gives 88% strength margin...

Yes.

...or 300+% more than for the 1G link.

No. A one and a half G weak link gives:
- 250 percent more than
or
- 350 percent of
the one G weak link's margin.

At weak link break a 1G link will give a total glider load of 2G, a 1.5G weak link a total load of 2.5G or 25% more.

Disregarding any increase due to centrifugal force from turning - yes.

The stronger weak link therefore gives a 300+% increase in strength margin for a 25% increase in ultimate load.

No. It's giving a 250 percent strength margin INCREASE over a one G's margin for a 25 percent increase in ultimate load.

I use a stronger weak link for the simple reason that low level weak link breaks are dangerous as the glider may not recover from the probable ensuing stall prior to hitting the ground.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


Yes.

They are also dangerous in tailwind launch conditions although you should never take of tailwind in anything stronger than you are willing to land in.

Ya know...

- Sometimes tailwinds aren't tailwinds until launch is already underway.

- We should be able to land in anything we can launch in - if we use wheels.

- When we go off slopes, ramps, cliffs we VERY SELDOM have the option to decide that the flight was ill timed, land after a couple of seconds, and start over. We should be able to launch with an equal level of commitment on the end of a string.

In my opinion...

I'm not interested in anybody's opinion.

...these problems presents...

Present.

...a far bigger risk...

Far bigger risks.

...than that of structural failure.

IN YOUR OPINION they do?

The risks of:
- crashing due to failures of weak links in the one G and neighborhood are HUGE and the zillions of incidents are very well documented
- blowing a certified glider with a one and a half G weak link is ZERO

Fuck your OPINION.

In my experience weak link breaks cause numerous problems...

In EVERYBODY'S experience.

...whereas thanks to the quality of today's gliders structural failure is almost unheard of.

- Fuck today's gliders. Gliders have been unbreakable since the late Seventies.
- Structural failure on tow is TOTALLY unheard of.

Yeah, I do know of on incident where a pilot locked out and was pulled through a previously straightened down tube leading to partial structural failure - the pilot was OK.

Irrelevant.

- The purpose of a weak link IS NOT and CANNOT BE to keep the "pilot" of a totally tits up glider that should've been released a long time ago from being pulled through a downtube.

- And if this glider was being aerotowed it's a REAL GOOD bet that it was using a Davis Link.

In the event of a lock out...

Lockout.

...I plan to release, and release early...

EVERYBODY *PLANS* TO. However virtually no one DOES because:

- Most of the time the lockout's just about over by the time anybody can react.

- Virtually no one bothers to equip himself with a release system that makes in possible to do so. And you guys haven't done shit in that department.

...because I know that by the time my weak link breaks (no matter how weak) the glider is likely to be diverging from the tow direction in a steep bank and dive.

Have you tried just pitching out abruptly to blow off more quickly?

If my release fails the weak link will still break before the glider.

Sorry dude. I stopped listening right after "If my release fails..." Nobody who goes up with a release that has ANY POSSIBILITY of failing has ANY BUSINESS going up.

I also don't listen to sentences that begin with "If my sidewire fails..." and "If I launch unhooked..." for similar reasons. The consequences can easily be lethal and the failures are totally and easily preventable.

This being said it is still far preferable to use low tow tension, headwind launch, and a standard weak link.

WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT MEAN?

- YOU use a stronger weak link for the simple reason that low level weak link breaks are dangerous as the glider may not recover from the probable ensuing stall prior to hitting the ground and also dangerous in tailwind launch conditions?

- But WE should keep using the "STANDARD" one G bullshit anyway?

What is this? Some bullshit political move to keep yourself in line with HGFA, Bill Moyes, Bobby, Davis?

Go fuck yourself, dude.

1 The bridle set up...

Setup.

is the pilots...

Pilot's.

...responsibility - after all they depend on it

- He depends on it. WITH the period.

- Fuck that. The tow operator VERY MUCH has a responsibility not to hook up incompetent people with dangerous shit equipment. And you motherfuckers have been around and seen the results of what comes down when you have shit operators who fail in that responsibility.

2 The weak link forms an integral part of the bridle set up.

It can't be on the end of the towline?

It should be made and tested by the pilot.

Yeah right.

- The fuckin' industry doesn't have a fuckin' clue as to weak link breaking strengths. And you're telling us that individual flyers are should be doing this - and expecting them to be EQUIPPED to do it? Bullshit.

- Do sailplane pilots make and test their weak links?

If the knot comes undone then the pilot should learn to tie a better one.

Fuck that. If you're gonna use fishing line as a weak link the only acceptable configuration is a single loop on a bridle end and the only acceptable knots are the Fisherman's Knot to form the loop and the Double Lark's Head to install it. If the glider guy can't handle that much he's got no business towing and no operator has any business hooking him up.

The weak link will only break at a consistent load if the string snaps, not if the knot comes undone.

Duh.

3 Higher climb rates and heavier glider/pilot combinations will inevitably need stronger weak links.

Bullshit.

- The purpose of a weak link is...

The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits.

...solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits. And therefore weak link strength is SOLELY a function of glider CAPACITY - not weight of glider/pilot combos.

- Smaller gliders can get away with stronger weak link ratings because they're proportionally stronger than larger gliders.

One size weak link does does not fit all. A 1G weak link for a heavy pilot may well represent 1.5G for a light one. If they keep breaking make them stronger.

Really appreciate all the support you've given us in the 130 pound Greenspot wars, dude.

Alternatively reduce tug climb rate to decrease tension or fly a lighter glider ;-)

BULLSHIT.

If you're using a weak link that has any possibility of blowing in response to tug climb rate you're using a weak link that can blow when a thermal suddenly jacks up your climb rate. And anybody with half a brain or better knows what can result when that happens.

4 Experience has shown that different batches of weak link line from the same manufacturer break at quite different loads.

I don't buy that material from the same manufacturer with the same diameter and physical appearance varies enough in strength to matter - especially if you're shooting for one and a half Gs.

Test each batch yourself...

Yeah. That's gonna happen. (Get freakin' real.)

...using exactly the set up you use in the glider.

Gonna say anything about the effect of bridle apex angle?

Use your personally tested stuff exclusively.

Bullshit. Get a figure from a reputable individual with the proper equipment - preferably not a tow park operator - and stop worrying about it.

5 The way the weak link is set up does influence its breaking load. The knot is the weakest point and decreases the strength of the line to ~50-70% of its un-knotted strength. Different types of knots weaken the line to different degrees. Because of this it is important to tie the same knot/s every time and position the knot/s consistently. If the knot is under tension a given number of strands of weak link will be weaker than if the knot is not under tension (i.e. excluded from the tension strands). It really doesn't matter what type of knot you tie (provided it doesn't come undone) or where you position it provided you are consistent and you test your system as in 4 above.

Rubbish.
- Tie and install the fuckin' loop with a Fisherman's Knot and Double Lark's head. There are no better knots for these applications.
- Figure a loop blows at the test strength of the line.
- Both knots are under tension and it makes no significant difference how the Fisherman's is positioned.

6 Have a bridle system that is as foolproof as possible.

Thanks for all the help you've given us going after the thin crap Davis sells and getting one point / secondary bridles down to wrap-proof lengths.

Remember nothing is absolutely foolproof because fools are just too damn ingenious.

That's why God gave us natural selection.

A system that only requires a snap hook to be attached to the tow line is almost foolproof.

Yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.

Right.

The pilot can then personally check his/her system during their preflight.

The pilot can then personally check his system during his preflight.

7 Make sure all your stuff is good stuff.

Yeah. Only one way to do that.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

The towline release is a critically important piece of equipment. It is the device which frees you from the towline and it must be failure-proof. Numerous designs have evolved over the years--some very good and some not so good. Unfortunately, releases are items that many pilots feel they can make at home or adapt from something they have seen at the hardware store. Two fatalities have occurred in the past five years directly related to failures of very poorly constructed and maintained releases. For the sake of safety, only use releases that have been designed and extensively tested by reputable manufacturers.

Buy it from somebody who tells everyone he's been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years.

Check you stuff works.

- Check to make sure your stuff works.

- Yeah. Prone out on the cart, have a buddy give a good hard pull on the towline, and swat the brake lever on the downtube. Then you know you're good to go.

Personally put your own stuff together.

Really?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear. I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.

Check you have put all your stuff together right - remember glider, harness and tow bridle are all essential elements of your stuff.

But not the RELEASE. Who ever heard of a RELEASE which could be used to RELEASE from tow anyway.

8 Accept that tug pilots come in all flavours - the good, the bad and the ugly.

Nah, they pretty much all suck. If they didn't they would:
- not tow the dangerous junk that they do
- support efforts to get good equipment in the air
- not tolerate scum like:
-- Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden continue to perpetrate on the public that piece of shit book of theirs
-- Dr. Trisa Tilletti degrading the sport the way they do
-- the Quest and Kitty Hawk people whitewashing the Zack Marzec fatality
-- Jim Rooney amongst their ranks

So do tow pilots.

Bullshit.
- They all tow pretty much the same or they don't last long.
- What mainly separates the gliders is the equipment they use.

Do your part right and make their job easy.

- To do otherwise is suicide. Getting out of position is always fifty times more dangerous to the glider than it is to the tug.
- If anyone ISN'T making the tug's job easy the primary blame goes to the asshole who signed him off.

If you feel they could give a better tow give them the feedback they need to do this.

If you're still alive after being dumped by the front end weak link or the tug making a good decision in the interest of your safety.

Diplomacy may be required.

Yeah. Sure.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/06 01:42:41 UTC

Oh god, I've been offensive to people that I hold in contempt.
How will I ever sleep at night?

I'm thinking a lead pipe would make an excellent implement of diplomacy to deal with some of these issues.

Remember hooking onto tow is an article of faith on both ends of the line.

Yeah. Tell me about all the tugs that have been fucked over by gliders.

9 None of this is rocket science. It is basic physics combined with elementary mechanics.

Oh, really.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.

I thought all us muppets were too fucking stupid to develop towing equipment that worked, use weak links whose purpose is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits, and be able to speculate on what went wrong with Zack Marzec's flight. What's the point in having fucking geniuses like Bobby Bailey and professional pilots like Jim Rooney dictating policy if this is just basic physics combined with elementary mechanics that anybody can understand?

It applies to all aerotowing and to towing in general.

Really? I was under the distinct impression that...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/29 13:40:42 UTC

Wow Bill. Thanks for such good information.
Yes, I will happily concede the "weak link does nothing in truck towing" point.
It's overarching and outside my area of expertise.
I was trying to drive home the difference between static towing and pressure towing.

...you needed to get behind the experts in the different flavors and that nothing was really transferable.

If things go wrong analyse why...

Wouldn't that often involve some degree of...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

...speculation?

...and fix the problem.

FIX THE PROBLEM?!?!?!

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.

Shouldn't we just keep on doing the same thing over and over again and hope for better results? And it's not like we're really all that sure...

Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC

We have no agreement that a stronger weaklink would make it safer (again, I fly with a slightly stronger weaklink).

...we actually HAVE a problem.

Develop the most foolproof system possible.

Really? I thought...

This being said it is still far preferable to use low tow tension, headwind launch, and a standard weak link.

...we were just supposed to keep on using the stuff that routinely dumps us into dangerous low level stalls because it's standard equipment.

Do it the same way all the time, every time.

Yeah, I think we've got that down pretty good.

Remember Murphy's extended law which states: "If anything can go wrong it will go wrong. It will also be the worst possible thing that could go wrong and will inevitably occur at the worst possible moment". Also remember Sod's law which simply states: "Murphy was an optimist"

As is hang gliding culture in general and AT culture in particular - eternally.

10 Follow 1-9 then relax and enjoy stress reduced towing.

Really? Tell us just how much you guys have done to reduce the danger of towing since Robin Strid got snuffed.

A lot of this article is drivel and shit but the issues that Rooney was labeling as such aren't. And if you guys weren't the wastes of space that you are you'd go after him and gut him for making that statement.

Those of us who GET towing have fixed all the problems shy of the political ones. And you do NOTHING to help us in that arena - and never have.

And the thought now occurs to me, dudes...

Welcome to Dynamic Flight, Australia's Leading Hang Gliding School

Dynamic Flight Hang Gliding School has been operating full time since 1991 in the Victorian Pyrenees winery region. We have had Hang Gliding Federation of Australia accreditation since our inception.

If you're such a great hang gliding school and getting these fundamentals across to your students so well then where the fuck are they when we're having these postmortem battles on the Jack and Davis Shows? Helen McKerral is the only student of yours who's ever given us any help in these and she only gets it about two thirds worth.

And if you really gave a flying fuck about any of this...

http://ozreport.com/9.037
Recommendations based on Robin's accident

Rohan Holtkamp - 2005/02/14

Our hang gliding community, like other facets of aviation (and life) must learn and adapt if deaths are to be avoided in the future. I feel saddened and frustrated when facts and physics prove change is needed, then the solutions that are offered are rejected.

...you'd have used the opportunity of the Zack Marzec fatality to wade in and start cracking heads - the way the people who ACTUALLY give flying fucks about the sport did.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31855
German engineering comes to weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/04/15 12:31:24 UTC

Don't actually work

BULLSHIT. ALL weak links WORK. Whether it's a:
- loop of 130 pound Greenspot
- Dragonfly tow mast breakaway
- loop of 250 pound braided Dacron
- one and a half G Tad-O-Link
- 2000 pound Spectra towline
- T2C cross spar

when you reach its load capacity it WILL WORK.

http://www.dhv.de/web/en/newsdetails/article/sollbruchstellen-fuer-uls/

The DHV-Technology Department has tested following predetermined breaking point at the 2013/03/11 and recognized for the UL-tow with hang gliders:

Breaking point in stainless steel with the breaking load values of 90, 100, 120 kg

The fuckin' idiot DHV assholes need to figure out what a weak link IS before they start looking into new weak link technology. And those figures are all too low for any of the stuff we wanna be flying.

Manufacturer:
Georg Schumacher
Heckenmühle 2
69483 Wald-Michelbach
Tel. 0177-5969361
gs@ib-schumacher.de

The breaking point optionally offered with a target breaking point protection, which allows a simple, tool-free replacement of the breaking point.

If you're using safe weak links you shouldn't EVER *NEED* to replace the breaking element.

Mark Dowsett

We tried these ourselves last year for our winch towing but they failed miserably.

Bullshit. They worked PERFECTLY. When you subjected them to tension at their load capacity they blew.

I can see them working for aerotowing as stated where the load is rather constant...

Yeah Mark, in aerotowing the load is rather constant. And that's why nobody seems to be able to figure out why Zack Marzec returned to the runway in a terminal heap two and a half months ago.

We don't NEED weak links - or helmets or parachutes - for normal, or abnormal but recoverable, flying situations.

...but when we transition during our two-stage towing (one line over, one line under), it shock loads the tow line and will break these calibrated metal weaklinks in a heartbeat.

Sounds like they worked PERFECTLY to me. Sounds like what failed miserably was you assholes who used calibrated weak links at calibrations way under the requirements for the tow operation.

And if you wanna knock the jolt down to just about zilch then why the hell aren't you using THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il3YPp3Rfq8

08-04124
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250952182_7b9f29e9d6_o.png

11-04309
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250951712_f751da927a_o.png

14-04604
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250878351_fa79a21af8_o.png

15-04610
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250878176_35b2cb57c6_o.png

17-04713
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250950977_9287d3f957_o.png

18-04803
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250877846_577923f27b_o.png

21-04811
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250877516_11538eb058_o.png

22-04817
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48250950367_02d5ea6fc2_o.png


http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30123
Step towing in Holland

technique?

Fuckin' idiot.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31855
German engineering comes to weaklinks

Gordon Rigg - 2013/04/16 10:17:32 UTC

So here we have how many? 5 or 6 engineered components in place of a piece of knotted string.

You mean like the one-size-fits-all piece of knotted string that dumped Zack Marzec into a fatal whipstall at Quest two and a half months ago?

Then you have to stock those metal links in various sizes for different sized pilots and dual tows.

When it's just so much easier to make thousands of 130 pound Greenspot loops and tell everyone at the flight line that it's the perfect weak link for him - and everybody else - and double it up for tandems so it's perfect for all of them too.

These metal links are going to be dragged up and down the runway and clattered about and some of those components are likely to go missing snagged in the grass, and the solution is to add an extra protective part?

I agree! Those sailplane people must be totally insane using calibrated Tost weak links...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti 1 - 2012/06

You and I have flown sailplanes for almost as long as we have flown hang gliders. We own two sailplanes and have two airplanes that we use for towing full-size sailplanes. In all the time that we have flown and towed sailplanes, we have not experienced or even seen a sailplane weak link break.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti 2 - 2012/06

It's not that it doesn't happen, but it is a rare occurrence. Russell Brown, a founder of Quest Air in Florida and a well-known Dragonfly tug pilot, is also a sailplane pilot, tug pilot, and A&P mechanic for a large commercial sailplane towing operation in Florida. He told us that, like us, he has never seen a sailplane weak link break, either.

...for all these decades while hang gliders...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

...have been getting forced to fly 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak links that can be as strong or weak as any number anyone feels like pulling out of his ass - from 100 to 360 pounds.

The metal link will be opertating quite close to its breaking limit.

WHOA! DUDE! That sounds...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/08 03:16:54 UTC

Just cause we were breaking them apparently a little too easily at Zapata, which is actually hard to understand since the conditions are always pretty mild there, but the last one broke right off launch.

...REALLY DANGEROUS!

To begin with it will have some yield, it will elongate a tiny bit. Then after a few tows that bit of give that allows it to withstand a bit of shock will be gone, and it will seem to break at a much lower load...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIGsgNFRWM

...(same as a very old side wire).

- Well, the good news is that you can't get killed as a consequence of a weak link break...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...the way you can with a sidewire break.

- Sidewires don't break as consequences of AGING. They break as consequences of DAMAGE and ABUSE.

I wonder if they age loaded the links for the test and compared them to new?

How 'bout doing everyone a huge favor and worrying less about these links and more about the crap everyone's actually using and has been crashing gliders left and right for decades?

Personally I think we should stick with a textile weak link.

Personally, I think we need to be talking G ratings before we start getting into the means of achieving them.

Where I tow they have a metal weak link (a lot simpler than this)...

Tost.

...for the dual tows and I clip in with my person string weak link on the end of that so they don't have to swap it.

And something like that couldn't be done using anything other than string?

Even when its old the textile weak link will have a bit of elasticity to to absorb a bit of a snatch in the line.

Fuck elasticity. We don't want it ANYWHERE in the tow system.

- Even if it actually helped anything - which it doesn't - how much good do you think the four or five millimeters you'd get out of a loop of fishing line would help?

- How much elasticity do you think Tost metal inserts and steel housings have? Hear any complaints about them?

- If you got a thing that breaks when you don't want it to try replacing it with a stronger thing. Then we won't hafta keep listening to this moronic crap about elasticity and shock absorbtion.

As long as my weak link breaks once in a while that's good enough for me.

Yeah, Zack Marzec had a weak link that broke once in a while. It IS good enough for YOU - but I want one that breaks about as often as I want my parachute to fall out of its container when I hit a bit of turbulence or my airbag to blow up in my face when I slam on the brakes for a traffic light, deer, or squirrel.

A more expensive engineering solution is not necessarily better.

No, but it almost always is because generally speaking somebody with a functional brain went to the expense and trouble of engineering something...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

Zack C - 2011/08/26 00:08:08 UTC

Maybe because they're tired of releases that don't work under tension, releases they have to relinquish control of the glider to activate, stalling near the ground because of weak links breaking for no reason, instructors telling them to intentionally break weak links in an emergency when they can't get to their release, hook knifes being considered an acceptable release option, secondary releases on a V-bridle being considered a backup for the primary release, bridles wrapping on tow rings, tugs having weaker weak links than gliders, disagreement among even professionals over what a weak link is for, tow operators not having a clue what line tensions break their weak links...

In my opinion, we have a long way to go.

...because there was something seriously wrong with what was being used before.

While DHV may have approved this, I hope they haven't made this style of weak link compulsory!

But the problem here is that the DHV shitheads and the people obsessed with getting breaking strength tolerances within a couple of percent plus or minus have no fucking clue what a weak link is. If they did they'd just slap on a loop of 250 and go flying.