Weak links

[Zack C]

A lot of valuable referenced videos have been taken down off of YouTube. Is it possible and legal to make them available by uploading them here as downloabable attachments?

I'm afraid not...pictures are one thing, but videos are massive. I'm not sure about our size limit for individual attachments, but our forum only has a few hundred MBs of storage total. You could upload them to a video sharing site like YouTube, but that's pretty clear copyright violation (not that that's uncommon on the Internet...).

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

Damn. Oh well, I have copies of all but a very few some of the earlier referenced videos here. And if anyone wants a copy of anything I'd be more than happy to send the file.

Anyway...

When I post this it will have been exactly three months since the reported time of Zack Marzec's fatal aerotow at Quest.

Undisputed facts...
- Pilot - highly experienced and highly qualified under the USHGA rating system.
- Glider - perfectly airworthy Moyes Xtralite.
- Flying weight: 255 pounds minimum.
- Weak link - 130 pound test line loop which consistently tests to around 130 pounds.
- Towed one point.
- Tug - 914 Dragonfly.
- Tug driver - highly experienced.
- Towline - 250 feet.
- Tug then, several seconds later, glider hit monster - but not off the scale - thermal - not dust devil - at 100 to 150 feet.
- Glider rocketed up and to the right.
- No suggestion of anything other than an appropriate and immediate response by the glider pilot.
- Weak link blew.
- Glider whipstalled, tailslid, and tumbled twice.

The dangers of line breaks / unintended premature releases and one point towing in strong thermal conditions have all been documented in fatality reports and advisories in Hang Gliding magazine.

And yet with all this expertise we have from all these aerotow operations and professional tug pilots and tandem aerotow instructors with decades and hundreds of thousands of tows worth of experience in all kinds of conditions there remains not the slightest official clue of what went wrong and no recommendation whatsoever of anything to do to reduce the possibility of a rerun.

Edit...

Oops. A day early. Oh well, everything above will still be valid twenty-four hours from post time.

[groundeffect]

Tad, you nailed it. Our sport doesn't deserve to have the ball dropped when it comes to our safety. The USHPA is not taking things seriously, just another day for them.

[Tad Eareckson]

Our sport doesn't deserve to have the ball dropped when it comes to our safety.

The ball wasn't dropped. It was snatched away and fed into a shredder.

The USHPA is not taking things seriously...

USHGA takes things VERY seriously - but none of the things it takes seriously have anything to with ensuring the safety of the flying membership.

What it takes most seriously is protecting itself and the commercial operations which feed it (Kitty Hawk, Lookout, Quest, Wallaby, Cloud 9...) from liability and accountability. And:
- it's heavily dependent on ignorance, stupidity, and confusion to achieve its goals
- there's nothing it hates and fears - and will attack more vehemently - more than competence, intelligence, and integrity

And that will NEVER change. (But I hope I live long enough to do some really serious damage to it.)

Look out for yourself and a buddy here and there and don't expect to have or worry about having a lot of friends if you want to do anything positive for the sport.

[Tad Eareckson]

I know I've already chewed this rot up at:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post3637.html#p3637
but it needed more work. And it's a good lead-in to several more issues that could use some addressing.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Guest - 2013/02/08 04:21:13 UTC

A tragic loss.

From having witnessed hundreds of tow launches in mid day thermal conditions, I imagined that as the tug rose quickly in the lift, Zachary found himself very low in relation to the tug and with his airspeed dropping ( the result of the tug going up more than going forward.) Your description is somewhat vague when describing the events occurring from the 50' level to the 150' level, but I imagined Zachary might have pushed out hard to try to "catch up" to the tug's altitude (even before the tug leveled out or began to descend to his level) resulting in a high AOA, slow relative airspeed, a small but strong thermal...

Yeah. SMALL...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

...but strong. Did you even bother giving the reports anything better than quick skims?

...and then the weaklink breaks. The horror...

How could this combination of factors have ended any differently? What options did either pilot have at that moment in time?

What options did the front end guy need?

The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.

Hard to imagine Zack's Rooney Link giving Mark's Dragonfly a much wider safety margin.

Despite the excellent safety record of the (modern) tow program...

Relative to what? Upon what data are you basing that declaration? The extensive crash data USHGA works so hard to gather and publish in the magazine? As far as I can tell from the magazine Terry Mason and Zack Marzec are still doing just fine.

I think all pilots must accept that this could happen to them in mid day conditions, regardless of their experience or the glider they happen to be flying.

As long as everyone's forced to fly with glider end weak links with long track records behind Dragonflies with weak links whose purpose is to protect the tow mast breakaway I totally agree with you.

I know of many HG pilots who no longer tow for this reason- they are wary enough of the conditions present or possible in a super-heated LZ but are unwilling to accept the additional risk when the added complexity of the tow is factored into the equation.

Fear of the focal point of their safe towing system? That's ABSURD! Everyone knows that the added complexity of a Davis Link pop can never result in anything more serious than a minor inconvenience. We know this because...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

...Davis has never had a serious problem with a Davis Link - just an inconvenience now and then.

In fact, There is a small group of experienced pilots at LMFP (and Henson's) that will not foot launch mid day - because no matter how soarable it looks, there is a distinct possibility that they will have to land in the superheated LZ sooner than they wish.

And those landings in the super-heated Happy Acres putting green LZs will have to be on their feet because if they aren't constantly working to perfect their flare timing they might not be able to land safely in the super-heated...

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3858
Landing in the Big T wash

NMERider - 2013/04/05 21:09:27 UTC

There have been a number of bad landing incidents in the wash by a variety of experienced pilots because it is a dangerous bailout, period. It is NOT the club's landing zone either. It is a bailout and when it's hot on the surface it can and will bite you in the ass.

...Big T wash.

Especially on high pressure days and especially on light wind days, when thermals present could mean a 180 degree wind switch while you are on final (a thermal you yourself triggered, perhaps?) Strong & Variable, if you will. It's ironic that the best thermal soaring conditions frequently result in the worst launching/landing conditions here in the Southeastern US...

Yes. How ironic. Reminds me a lot of...
- whitewater kayaking - excellent rapids during spring flooding, minimum hydraulic danger during late summer droughts
- downhill skiing - great powder in February, lowest high speed impact avalanche dangers in late August
- surfing - biggest waves with hurricanes offshore, lowest riptide threat in flat calms
- mountain climbing - most spectacular views in the Himalayas, less danger of hypothermia and hypoxia in Florida
- horse racing - best times on Thoroughbreds, least risk of broken neck on Shetland Ponies

Idiot.

...(dammit! That's it- I'm getting some wheels!)

Oh. Like sailplanes use for landing when THEY fly in the best thermal soaring conditions there in Southeastern US. Maybe that's why we don't hear about them sitting out the best thermal soaring conditions. And maybe the fact that they use FAA legal weak links that don't break and don't have Dragonfly driver shitheads...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

...forcing them up on half G fishing line lets them further minimize the risks of:
- multiple takeoffs
- stalls
- emergency landings in thermal conditions
- time spent in the kill zone

The tow guys know this all too well, and that's why the LMFP tugs have the 914 Turbo option- to get the hell up and away A.S.A.P. with power to spare.

Yeah, must be nice to have...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

...power to spare. If only we could figure out some way to reliably transmit it to the gliders so they to could get the hell up and away ASAP. Any thoughts?

No, wait. Any thoughts in that area would just be more of...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...that crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

When hearing horror stories like this latest fatality, I'm reminded of Mike Meier's excellent essay "Why Can't We Get A Handle On This Safety Thing? Loosely translated here; In mid-day, high pressure thermal conditions, anything can happen, and, over time, everything will happen.

Six times in a row occasionally. But that's just an inevitable side effect of using an appropriate weak link - like Wills Wing tells and its dealerships force us to do.

You may not ever be able to predict or prevent their occurrence, and you may not be able to react properly.

Hey, here's a thought...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

michael170 - 2012/08/17 17:01:40 UTC

Zack, let me see if I understand your logic.

You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.

What if we replaced things that broke needlessly with things that DIDN'T break needlessly? Just kidding.

You can only choose the time you launch...

Right. All of your equipment choices have been made for by the tug driver who's appointed himself Pilot In Command of your aircraft and can use his weak link or dump lever to override a lot of choices you might have otherwise.

...or whether or not you will launch.

The lapse rate is UNBELIEVABLE today. Let's hang out at the picnic table and talk about parachutes until things smooth out this evening.

OR...

We could use towing equipment capable of safely handling the kind of flying we do. (Just kidding.)

You may be able to choose the moment you will land. Maybe...

I can maybe get a lot more choice about when I land if I can go up on a mid range weak link behind a fuckin' tug complying with fuckin' FAA aerotowing regulations.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/10 17:19:54 UTC

Ah, back to civil discussion.

Something to note about leaving carts....
There is a drastic difference when being pulled by a 582 or a 914/912.

People have a tendency to leave the cart too soon when behind a 582. With the big tugs however, the problem is the opposite. This is especially obvious when you take someone that tows behind 582s and put them behind a 914.

It doesn't sound like a problem at first... more speed is good right? As with all things, yes but .... "to a point". See what happens behind a 914 if you use 582 technique is this....

You accelerate very rapidly of course and gain a lot of speed. I call it leaving the cart at Mach 5. No problem yet (well, there's a small one, but we'll get to that). As you leave the cart, the tug is already a good bit above you, so you ease off the bar pressure (you've got a ton at this point) and this is just about the same time you slam into the prop wash. Your weaklink lets go.

After a couple weaklink breaks in this manner, you start to wonder if Tad's right about these "weak" weaklinks. Nevermind that it's a technique problem not an equipment problem. Nevermind that using a stronglink greatly increases the chances that you will hurt yourself in a very bad way.

See, weaklinks don't care about speed. They care about load. Going Mach5 and easing off the pitch, even a little bit, greatly increases your load... remember that whole bit about windspeed being an exponential factor?

So there you are with in a highly loaded situation, and then you shockload the system by hitting the propwash. Not good.

Your weaklink is doing exactly what it should do.

Behind a 914, set the cart correctly, resist getting "pulled through" the bar by the tow force, and allow the glider to simply fly out of the cart. Don't pull in. Don't lock yourself to the cart. In short, don't use 582 technique. Consult an instructor (that's familiar with 914s) for a more detailed explanation than this.

Behind a 582, the problem is as stated before... people get antsy to get out of the cart. You do roll till you're practically lift the cart. It's a very different world.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

Zach, you can nit pick all you like, but I'll put a 100,000+ flight record over your complaints any day of the week.

Let me see if I can clear up a few things for ya.
A lot of this I sent to Steve btw...

The "purpose" of a weaklink is not in question. Your semantics are.
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

There are many ways in which it accomplishes this.
You're nit picking over what you call the "true purpose"... but all you're griping about is a definition... and an erroneous one at that.

Again, The weak link increases the safety of the tow.

Now, how it does this also provides a telling answer to one of the most hot button topics surrounding weak links... lockouts.
People will rail up and down that weaklinks do not protect against lockouts... which they don't.
But this is a half truth.

The whole truth is that while they don't prevent them, they help.

Where this discrepancy comes from is truck towing.
See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.

This is not the case with an aerotow.
This is why the weaklink exists.

The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.

So think about it.
How is this accomplished?
Simply put... lock out.

So, in a lock out, the forces can very rapidly get so high as to destroy the glider?
So then, weaklinks do not help in a lock out situation?
You can see what I'm getting at here can't you?

Argue all you like about the "true" purpose of a weaklink... but it's only you that's arguing.
I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
I only find a disconnect when they're talking to the general public, and it always boils down to semantics.

See, we're not confused.
You're searching for an argument and only finding it within yourself.

This btw is one of the main reasons that most of the professionals do not bother with the forums.
Cuz it's generally a bitchfest around here.

Instead of looking for an argument, you may consider listening instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaVg_bzK3Aw

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits

Jim Rooney - 2012/05/28 11:49:58 UTC

Guys
Your questions hold the answers.

What you're writing about and what your seeing are two very different things.
Your theories are what are doing you in.

What you're talking about is coming out of the cart too early and not having enough flying speed.
What you're watching is Davis coming out of the cart at Mach5.
He is absolutely no where near coming out too slow!

I've said it before, I'll say it a million times... a 582 tug is NOT the same thing as a 914.
Using 582 techniques on a 914 will put you in the shit.

All this "hang onto the cart till it's flying" stuff is fine for 582s. It is NOT for 914s.
Why?
In a word... propwash.

I'm not kidding.
It amazes me how people underappreciate the propwash. It's an afterthough... a footnote.
Let me tell ya guys... on a 914, it's the #1 factor when you leave that damn cart.
You SLAM into that propwash.

I'm towing out here in the desert at the moment. Out here, like it or not, you get to see the propwash. You see it in a big way. Even when we're towing on the pavement, you get to see it. It sucks and you know exactly where it is... because it's a big old cloud of dust and rocks. We insist on our passengers wearing glasses because of it (we provide them if they don't have their own).

Crosswinds of course make a huge difference. But again, we see the propwash... it's clear as day. Sometimes we can even steer around it (that's an other topic though).

The reason I make such a big deal about the difference between the 582s and the 914s is because behind a 582, you're still on the ground when you hit the propwash. You're rolling on the cart and you roll right on through it. No big deal.

So when you "wait till you're lifting the cart"... you're WELL BEYOND the propwash.
When you exit at Mach5, it's no big deal.

Now, when you do this behind a 914... it's a huge deal.
As I said, you slam into the prop wash.

And you're wondering why you're breaking weaklinks????
Are you kidding me?

Think about it... you're going a million miles an hour under huge (relatively speaking) line tension as you come blazing out of the cart struggling to "stay down"... as you slam into turbulent air. Hell yes you're going to break weaklinks. That's what they're there for!
You're subjecting them to massive loadings.
(The shock loading a weaklink sees as you hit the propwash is far greater than people appreciate)
That's why we have them... they're doing their job.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 06:40:02 UTC

As Davis said here or somewhere else... I have no idea where this "purpose of the weaklink" nonsense got started, but it's utter nonsense ok. Stop it.

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to improve the safety of the system.
PERIOD

It's not "lockout protection"... but I'll be damned if it hasn't stopped some of the muppets I've had to tow from locking out.
Is that what's it's "for"?
Who cares what it's "for"?
Who cares what it's "purpose" is?... or more specifically, what *you* define it as?

It helps.

Is it perfect? No, of course not.
Does it "prevent" lockouts... of course not.
Should you rely on it to do so? Nope.

Does it help you when you're f*cking up?
You better believe it.

Does it do other things?
You bet it does.

So... if it's *only* purpose is to prevent your glider from breaking apart... which is complete and utter bullshit... but if that was it's only purpose... why then do we have them at all?
Your glider will tear the rope apart before it breaks.
It will tear the towmast off the tug before it breaks.
Your glider is capable of amazing feats of strength... it is in no danger of folding up on you.

So why have a weaklink at all?
The answer?
Because... brace yourself... You're wrong.
I know, it sounds crazy, but it's actually true.
The *purpose* of a weaklink... is... well... perhaps a bit more than just one simple little thing.

Is the *purpose* of my tow release "lockout prevention"?
No.
But I'll be damned if I won't use it to do so.
See... same thing.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC

Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.

It's not going to be nice because it's an affront to ego... which goes over like a lead balloon, but again... too bad, it's the truth.

See, the "everyone's opinion is valid" stuff is for the birds.
No. We don't consider everyone's opinion on these topics.

You're late to the game. Very late.
We've been at this a long freaking time. You haven't.
All these "ideas" that people propose, we've already been through... a number of times.

Don't you think that the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF THAT?

We did.
A long time ago.
Not only have we thought this stuff through seven different ways to sunday, we've tested a bunch of this shit too. And some of it's the stuff that you haven't even gotten around to realizing yet.

It's not cuz we're somehow smarter... we're not.
It's cuz you're LATE!!!
We've just had tons more time at this.

So pardon me if I get a bit irritated at people telling me that I need to reconsider something from someone who's just now getting to something that we've been over a million freakin times already.

Have we explored everything?
No. Of course not.

BUT YOU"RE LATE!
Your ideas have already been hashed through.

This is why this is an affront to ego.
See, people don't like to hear that their special little idea has already been thrown out even before they bring it up.

But that's the gods honest truth.

This is what I'm talking about when I politely inform people that they're not going to be informing me about towing.
It's not that I think I'm "all that"... it's that I've spent more time discussing this shit with people that know what the hell they're talking about then you have time discussing anything about hang gliding at all.

You're late to the game.
Your special little idea's already been discussed... a long long time ago.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/13 15:02:38 UTC

Can you explain, then, exactly how we arrived at the current 130 lb weak link standard? It's been in use since the earliest aerotowing records I can find.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

It was already worked out by the time I arrived.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Zack C - 2013/03/05 15:16:23 UTC

Yes, this is very much about safety. What happened at Quest last month has only reinforced my position.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.

- So what data do the people who were actually there have that they've been suppressing and why are they suppressing it?

- After over three months the people who were actually there believe that there was absolutely nothing wrong with that tow - despite the fact that a tandem aerotow instructor tumbled to his death from it - and have no recommendation to do anything differently.

- So of what use are these expert minds analyzing this suppressed data to the person who plops himself onto a launch dolly?

- On 2010/11/27 - two years, two months, and five days prior to Zack Marzec's fatal whipstall - at the thirteen second point on this video:


Weak link break LMFP 11/27/2010
password - red
2-1306
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7258/13851486814_77efdf1004_o.png


Zack C forever lost his faith in the Rooney Link and its priests and became an advocate and user of mid legal range weak links.

- Zack C has never considered himself or anyone else enough of a pro to be able to react quickly and decisively enough to compensate for the absence of an upper bridle attachment.

- Thus Zack C's recommendation to Zack Marzec would have been to double the:
-- strength of his weak link to keep him from blowing off tow when he's standing on his tail
-- number of bridle attachment points to allow him to better hold his nose down

- Compare/Contrast with the recommendation of the people who were actually there to keep on configuring exactly the same way and hope for better results.

So. If we hop in the time machine and launch Zack at exactly the same moment configured...
- exactly as he was - what results might we expect?
- as Zack C configures himself and recommends how much worse could the results be if he's totally clueless regarding these issues?

[Tad Eareckson]

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink).

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

God I love the ignore list

I have no time for such circular logic.
I had it with that crap years ago.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 05:23:34 UTC

Like I said... I've been through this a thousand times.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

Now, how it does this also provides a telling answer to one of the most hot button topics surrounding weak links... lockouts.
People will rail up and down that weaklinks do not protect against lockouts... which they don't.
But this is a half truth.

The whole truth is that while they don't prevent them, they help.

I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
I only find a disconnect when they're talking to the general public, and it always boils down to semantics.

See, we're not confused.

This btw is one of the main reasons that most of the professionals do not bother with the forums.
Cuz it's generally a bitchfest around here.

Instead of looking for an argument, you may consider listening instead.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:22:00 UTC

But when I say "this is what we do and it works", I'm sick to death of hearing BUT YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!!!!

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC

So pardon me if I get a bit irritated at people telling me that I need to reconsider something from someone who's just now getting to something that we've been over a million freakin times already.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 10:11:31 UTC

As I said.
Been through this shit a million freaking times.
Please quit trying to educate me about my job.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

Zach,
We're not in disagreement. In fact, you're reiterating all kinds of stuff that I try to get across to people all the time.

As I said, I've been through this a million freaking times.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC

Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:15:12 UTC

I've heard it a million times and it's a load of shit.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

I think what you're picking up on is my lack of willingness to discuss this with people that have already made up their minds.
Sorry for that, but it's just the nature of the beast.

I have no issue with discussing this with people that don't have an agenda.
I get very short with people that do however.

A glider can take a whole shitload more force than a weaklink can.
So, if you're of the "sole purpose" cult, then you see no issue with a LOT stronger weaklink.

Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.
So they can stuff their philosophical purity bs... cuz I have no desire to tow someone to their death, no matter how willing they may be.

I'm not playing with this stuff in my head and just dismissing it. There's been a lot that's gone into this system.

I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/29 13:40:42 UTC

I said I'm sick to death of inexperienced people arguing with experienced people. It boggles my mind.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

Ok, I'm tired of this.
I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince.
Again, I don't care to argue this stuff.
I'll answer actual questions if you're keen to actually hear the answers, but arguing with me? Really? Have fun with that.

Gimme a call when you think of something that we haven't already been through years ago... cuz to date, you have yet to come up with anything new. Well, maybe it's new to you I guess. It's old as dirt to me though.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

I've had this conversation with many people.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 00:34:14 UTC

We've been at this a long time and have gone over and over all these little arguments before that you think are "new".
They're new to you.
But they're old hat to "us".

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 10:37:47 UTC

When you come back to reality, let me know.
Till then, I'm sick of it.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/19 02:22:35 UTC

I'm still confused about this question that I'm supposed to be answering.
Btw, if I'm a "newbie" as you're suggesting, why would it matter about any question I have to answer?
I mean, it's not like I've been doing this for a job since 2004 right?
Sorry I can't help.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/27 09:45:26 UTC

I thought we'd already solved the world's problems... but apparently not.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

I have little time for these people.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC
So, if you're interested in discussing something, let me know.
If you're just here to argue, dude, I've got so much better shit to waste my time with.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

My god my head hurts.

I'm tired of arguing with crazy.
As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 08:12:02 UTC

Ok, more insanity. Fun.
I'm just bored and I find stirring up your little hornet's nest amusing for some reason.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

Zach, you can nit pick all you like, but I'll put a 100,000+ flight record over your complaints any day of the week.
Argue all you like about the "true" purpose of a weaklink... but it's only you that's arguing.
You're searching for an argument and only finding it within yourself.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

And the people who were actually there with the additional data to which only they are privileged, the expert professional pilots and aerotow operators who've been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years, aren't telling ANYONE ANYTHING about how your friend Zack Marzec died and your FRIEND...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 06:15:12 UTC

You may not know, but Davis is a friend of mine.
We have discussed this many times in person. We are not in disagreement.

If you can not see that we're in agreement, perhaps I can clear things up for you. Or Davis can.

...Davis has locked down the discussions and threatened to ban anyone interested in reaching a consensus as to what happened.

So the only conclusions I see that can account for your behavior are that you:

- have absolutely no interest whatsoever in understanding how your friend died

- know perfectly goddam well how your friend died - but are strongly motivated to keep as many people as possible in the dark regarding a rational conclusion because a proper consensus would totally destroy your reputation and those of all the other aerotow industry shits with whom you've aligned yourself

- don't really wanna know how your friend died 'cause you don't wanna hafta admit to yourself what a miserable incompetent crowd of serial killing total shits you and your aerotow industry buddies are