http://westcoastbrit.blogspot.com/2013/05/a-couple-of-weeks-ago-i-had-experience.html
Lock out on tow
Ben Dunn - 2013/05/23 05:57
A couple of weeks ago I had an experience I'd rather not repeat.
You'll be fine. Just keep going up with the same equipment in the same air and expecting different results. And if there was shit that worked any better than what you have...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC
I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?
Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD
I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
...we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality - the way your equipment obviously does so spectacularly.
I think there are some lessons that can be learned, so I'll share.
I think that since you're a tandem instructor...
Ben Dunn - 69162 - Canyon Lake, Texas - H4 - 2001/09/21 - George Reeves - AT FL ST TFL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - BAS INST, MNTR, TAND INST
...and thus an Aerotow Industry shit you're gonna blow a load of crap in our faces to divert attention away from the shit Industry Standard equipment that damn near got your off the scale sleazy ass killed.
In short it was a hang gliding launch that went wrong.
No it wasn't. It was a hang glider launch that went exactly like it was supposed to - as can be predicted from decades of fatality reports. All your previous uneventful ones have been uneventful only because you've been lucking out better.
I got away with it but just barely...
And the only reason I'm the least bit happy that you didn't end up back on the runway as the second terminally mangled pulp in a little over three months this season is because you've given us an account of what happened - and deprived Joel and whatever other assholes were hanging around that airport from writing this off as another inexplicable freak accident probably precipitated by a dust devil.
I was exposed to far more risk than I was comfortable with...
YOU exposed YOURSELF to that risk - as you do EVERY TIME YOU LAUNCH - motherfucker.
The day seemed fairly harmless...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07
The weather conditions seemed quite benign. It was a typical winter day in central Florida with sunny skies, moderate temperatures and a light south west wind.
...wind was SE on the ground at 5-15 mph a little gusty - but that's Texas. Above 200 feet it was probably S @ 20 mph. Air was unusually cold for the wind direction. I had already taken...
...gotten away with...
...one flight.
One more than Zack Marzec got.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png
I came out of the cart very smoothly, level and perfect airspeed. Just as I was starting to relax into the tow...
Sounds like you get relaxed on tow a lot sooner than I get relaxed on tow. And MY equipment DOESN'T totally suck.
...I got whacked on the right wing. That made me climb...
That MADE you climb? Would it have made you climb if you had had a two point bridle to help hold the nose down and trimmed the basetube to under in front of your face...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32324
Control Bar Position At Trim
Alan Deikman - 2013/06/03 21:27:32 UTC
Fremont
After not flying for a long time I went flying yesterday and noticed (perhaps I hadn't noticed before because I was used to it) that the control bar was "above" my head when I was hands-off. The Sport 2 flies fine like that and won't stall until I push out farther than that.
...instead of...
...back beyond your sternum?
...and yaw significantly left.
Aren't you a pro toad?
http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report
Steve Wendt - 2005/05/29
This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air.
Hadn't you been trained in a short clinic under supervised conditions in the evening air to understand the problems of being a pro toad and be able to hold the nose down a lot better?
With full right weight-shift I came back into line (though I was still high).
STILL too high? I'da thunk you'd have been able to figure out on your own how to get the nose down by this time.
Just then the second surge hit, this lift was a lot more turbulent.
It was probably a dust devil. Nuthin' you can really do about dust devils.
I went to pin of with my right hand, I was already too high, and surging upward...
What if you used a TWO point bridle to trim the nose down? No, wait. Then people would think you weren't really a pro and start deriding your testicles.
...right after taking my hand off the bar...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases
Zack C - 2012/03/14 05:29:01 UTC
And if you're just approaching a lockout, taking a hand off the bar could be the very thing that puts you into a lockout.
...the right wing rapidly lifted.
- No shit. Who'da thunk.
- BULLSHIT.
http://www.kite-enterprises.com/articles/tow_release_wars.htm
Dave Broyles
Now getting to the main issue. To take the hand off the control bar to release or not. It has not been my experience that having to remove a hand momentarily to operate a release causes a problem for a pilot with experience. Why? Because the glider in flight, being surrounded by several tons of air takes several seconds to react to any change. Thus there is ample time for a pilot to operate a release or even slap a 3-string release that is hanging.
-- Having to remove a hand momentarily to operate a release will not cause a problem for a pilot with experience. The glider in flight, being surrounded by several tons of air, takes several seconds to react to any change. Thus there is ample time for a pilot to operate a release or even slap a three-string release that is hanging.
-- A lot of pilots are afraid to take away one hand from a bar while the bar pressure is scary high. They think the glider immediately will do something bad.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Viktor Moroz - 2013/02/09 17:26:52 UTC
A lot of pilots are afraid to take away one hand from a bar while the bar pressure is scary high. They think the glider immediately will do something bad. It's a delusion.
It's a delusion.
- So how come you didn't use your 130 pound Greenspot instant hands free release? How come you didn't just...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC
As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.
You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
...pitch out abruptly, overload that puppy, and save your ass?
- I'm a bit surprised that...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.
http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Wallaby Ranch - 2013/06/03
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots
If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap
Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC
For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.
...you got that far out of whack in the first place. Are you sure you didn't have your weak link accidentally...
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/02
There was some talk about the possibility that Zack may have had his weak link doubled over making it stronger than a normal weak link.
...doubled over making it stronger than a normal weak link?
If you're gonna keep flying that high over the tug you might wanna consider investing in a Koch two stage.
I was happy that Joel (Froehlich) beat me too it and gave me the rope.
- You had your hand mid flight between the basetube and your bent pin barrel "release" and you STILL couldn't get rid of the rope before Joel did your job for you from 180 feet away while flying another plane and watching you in a mirror?
- So how come Joel didn't wind up on HIS ear when he actuated HIS release? Oh, right. He blows HIS release with a lever on the joystick. Never mind.
As you can see from the sequence below, I had quite a bit of energy from the sling shot effect, but also with the air being pretty radical. Even off line I continued to be pitched up despite pulling in.
Think maybe you'd have been better off at this point if you'd been on a two point bridle when the shit hit the fan? Just kidding.
All to soon I was without airspeed in a bad sideslip, I think the images are two seconds apart.
Must be A LOT longer apart than that. With the glider surrounded my several tons of air there's very little significant that happens in under five seconds or so.
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover.
The nose did come around...
...as I dumped the VG...
Seems like you're able to dump VG tension in an emergency a lot better than you're able to dump the towline in an emergency. Any thoughts on why that is?
...and I was flying low right back into the air that had caused all this...
Bullshit, motherfucker. It was your inability to HANDLE that air - due entirely to the dangerous compromises you made with your cheap shit "equipment" - that caused all that.
...downwind and I was dragging the 180 foot tow line.
- Seems like you're able to dump VG tension in an emergency a lot better than you're able to dump the towline in an emergency. Any thoughts on why that is?
- Maybe it would've been a better idea to prioritize dumping the towline over dumping the VG.
- Maybe with a two point bridle and a heavy weak link you'd have been able to...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.
...ride out the tow and would not - at this point - be back into the nasty air landing downwind with 180 feet of Spectra draped over your basetube. No, wait. That's just...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
...more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
I was a pretty unhappy chap!
Yeah, but...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.
What are ya gonna do?
I think some of the nasty air actually helped get my glider back into the wind for a no step (check your underware) landing.
So you had the luxury of dumping your VG during what you thought might be a fatal stall and rotating upright for a standup landing on airport grass...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...in potentially dangerous conditions but not of dumping the towline?
I'm not for a moment going to claim full authority over the glider.
Really?
You weren't trying to do that?
From roll out to kissing the ground was less than a minute.
That's probably about what Zack Marzec got....
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
...before he kissed the ground.
So what can be learned from all this ?
I have absolutely no fucking idea. When I was totally unable to learn anything from the Zack Marzec fatality earlier this year I totally gave up on trying to learn things.
We certainly are exposed to a higher level of risk from 20-80 feet on tow.
More risk than twenty to eighty feet when...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM
tow.MPG
larswet - 2012/02/26
16-0605
18-0627
23-0817
25-0907
26-0914
27-0919
31-0923
...not on tow? Sounds pretty scary.
Are there things that increased my exposure?
Yes, but if you were stupid enough to be pro toad on a Rooney Link into thermal conditions after what had happened three months prior I don't think there's much point in discussing them.
After having mulled over this a while I'd say there were three different possibly companding factors.
Companding factors. Some of aviation's biggest killers.
1. I think I was flying with too much VG (4/5) This compromised my roll control.
Yeah. That's EXACTLY what I was thinking.
I went to pin of with my right hand, I was already too high, and surging upward, right after taking my hand off the bar the right wing rapidly lifted.
With eighty percent VG a wing can rapidly lift and it's almost impossible to get it back down.
2. I had a camera on my sprog, and I've noticed before at high airspeed, the handling does weird stuff (probably on acount of the zipper being open and air pressure changing the camber).
What kind of weird stuff does it do to your glider when you're megastalled?
3. In Luling we tow at higher airpseeds, this narrows the envelope that a glider should be in behind the tug. Which in turn will reduce the amount of turbulence that can be handled.
- Just stay in the Cone of Safety - you'll be fine. And use fin.
- Wanna say anything about towline length? Just kidding.
I think each of these factors on there own are innocuous, but combined had a dramatic result. I'd rather not do that again.
You couldn't make up stuff like this with a gun to your head. Thirty-three years ago it would've been totally impossible for this level of total lunacy to exist.
