instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29070
Why the Angst??

CAL - 2013/05/19 23:55:02 UTC
Ogden

though i agree with you on the subject of kindness, i am not so sure about that is what families do, should we as families, certainly ! growing up with five siblings, i making us a family of 6, have seen all of it, anger, hate and the opposite of that, love, but through it all we stayed together, some of us here have been hurt and left, some of us stuck it out that's what families do, unfortunately what others do leave the rest of us with no choice, i totally miss those who have been hurt and left, glad others have stuck around,

How 'bout THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

CAL?

- The Jack Show is NOT a "family" - it's a dictatorship.

- THIS:

Please treat the admin as a regular user. As long as you follow the rules, there is NO CHANCE you will banned because you disagree with the admin. The admin would like to be part of this community too without having to walk on egg shells because people think his word holds more weight for whatever reason. It does not. But the admin will do his job as moderator when he has to. But please follow the rules and don't make him do it, he doesn't enjoy that part.

is a flat out LIE - as is made quite obvious in these posts:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12403
weak link table

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/13 21:09:44 UTC

Im glad you think you can argue with the admin about his own rules

You advertised for a company, and the rules state you have to ASK ME FIRST, which you didnt. Your tone is rubbing me the wrong way, as if you own this place.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/07/04 13:48:47 UTC

Really sick of this bombastic, grandstanding, arguing style I come to my own forum each day and get pissed off. Time to end this.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/10 00:45:32 UTC

Guess AeroTow didnt take my last warning seriously.

- Notice how conspicuously silent your little dictator has been on the Zack Marzec fatality?

- So how come you're saying NOTHING about the people who were banned because the were winning fights against Jack and his rabble?

i have seen families that get angry over little things and never speak to each other, that is the sad part, we should all buck up and take the crap that our brothers and sisters dish out and not punish those who have not even hurt them and leave, tempers will fly that is a given, we just need to let go and stick it out,

A lot of the fights in this game are not about LITTLE THINGS - they're about life and death issues.

you Oakdude (Paul Walsh) are a gentleman !

He's a pigfucker.

not all of our brother and sisters are, lets just forgive, some of our biggest fights on the org, have turned out to create the very opposite, great friendships !

And the fight in which I was engaged on my last post before Jack and his rabble won by banning me from the ring while I was happily breaking jaws...

Matt Pericles - 2009/11/09 18:38:42 UTC
Roswell, Georgia

Where I fly (LMFP) there are a number solo pilot accedents every year, mostly where pilots get off the cart too soon. These pilots usually wind up bending aluminum, and some break bones.

Tad Eareckson - 2009/11/10 00:14:54 UTC

Lemme take a guess here. They ARE, in fact, coming off the cart too soon. But that's not why they're bending aluminum and breaking bones.

They're bending aluminum and breaking bones because after they make their second mistake - which was coming off the cart too soon - their first mistake - which was using a weak link about a third the strength it should be - kicks in and bites them. RIGHT?

...was largely about the dangers of Rooney Links at tow parks. And as a result of the family victory y'all didn't get any great friendships - ya'll got yet another big prayerfest in early February.

with that said i agree, it is much more rewarding to be gentle, after all we all have fragile egos

Gentle's not doing the trick. But I one hundred percent guarantee you that the ratio of 200 to 130 pound weak links being used for aerotowing went abruptly and significantly north on 2013/02/03.

Great post

Why? What are you expecting to see change for the better because of it? It's about as useful as telling people:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...

Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC

We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.

"You've got to hook in. Period." And that's worse than useless.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29070
Why the Angst??

Mark Selner - 2013/05/20 00:40:28 UTC
Apple Valley, California

yep yep yep..time too fly..

Nope, Nope, Nope... Time to get things right.

Nic Welbourn - 2013/05/20 00:43:48 UTC
Canberra

We can't avoid the negative, as this comes with the positive. This ain't no Cosby Show.

But there's surely no need to attack folks...

Yes. There SURELY *IS* a need to attack folks. The sport is infested with and controlled by idiots, frauds, liars, thieves, and serial killers. And they need to be attacked twenty-four/seven for how many decades it takes to expose and neutralize them.

...or be so strong about our opinions.

- Fuck our OPINIONS.

- Our legitimate POINTS need to be driven to the hilt 'cause for every hour that drifts by there's a good chance of a preventable tragedy being averted.

My experience is that we really are some kind of a family, we do (in general) stick together and help each other.

Bullshit. If that were true scum like Jack, Davis, Rooney, Bob, Matt, Trisa, Dennis would've been gutted years or decades ago.

Good post

Waste of space.

Dave Hopkins - 2013/05/20 01:46:11 UTC

IT all can be so wonderful.

It NEVER has been.

But after many yrs you realize its more like a long war and you don't make serious friends with those that keep sticking their heads up every time the shells fall.

Who's signing them off?

It's like this weekend . A couple of new to site guys show up and I have a bad feeling. One launches in a perfect 10 straight in. Takes two steps jumps in to the glider and pushes out. waffles down over launch and gets off. His buddy does the same thing. STUPID and clueless.

Who signed them off?

last guy of the day launches. Hes been having shaky launches. Its perfect conditions, He half ass runs, pushes out to get off, mushes, drops a wing , pushes out some more, spins into the bushes and rocks. He is unscathed but glider is wreaked.

Who signed him off?

All preventable but now who is going to be the negative guy that has to get in these pilot wannbees faces , drag them to the training hill and teach them the proper launch concepts before they maim them selves and give us a lot of bad press.

Name them so we can look up the instructors who signed them off and get their fucking certifications revoked.

shit happens...

Bullshit. Gliders don't crash and people don't fall out of them because shit happens. Gliders crash and people fall out of them because the Pilot Proficiency System is a total joke.

...but don't jump in a pile of it and complain about the smell.

Hang gliding shouldn't be a shit heap. But thanks to the Rooneys who've hijacked it and Oakdudes (Paul Walshes) who run interference for them it is - and probably always will be.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29074
More winch tow fun.

Don Arsenault - 2013/05/20 15:08:24 UTC
Toronto

This was a flight I did yesterday. I've been starting to fly in mid day conditions now, but nothing too rough yet. Still not finding any decent lift yet.

After some winch issues (the jerk when I call for tension, then too much tension then the tension drop at transition height)...

Hey Don... What's the reason you haven't adopted THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il3YPp3Rfq8


transition technique?

- No risk of having the under line locking you into...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I


...a dangerous climb.

- No need or reason to reduce tension for the transition and thus a more efficient climb.

- No significant jolt to the weak link under constant full tension.

- More reliable release during a low level / first stage emergency.

I still got a decent tow. Played around flying in mush a bit, and just getting a better feel for my wing. The landing kind of sucked.

Big surprise. Did you consider doing something like THIS:

7:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SJu09S-Y0

8-71716
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7369/13962618245_163eb65caa_o.png


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2920/13939515566_f9b68a2595_o.png
9-72800

I flared too late, and felt the left wing stall and drop. I pulled back in a bit (I know... stupid), to prevent my tip wand from slamming into the ground, and ran out the left turn from the stalled wing. At least my big ugly wheels saved me from a big ugly whack.

The landing would've been a lot:
- easier
- better controlled
- safer
- less stressful
- more fun
- prettier

if you had deliberately landed on your big ugly wheels.

http://vimeo.com/66546268

Red Howard - 2013/05/20 15:43:31 UTC

Seems like you have a decent winch there. Get the best guy available, to run it when you launch. :-8
The advanced pilots can have the other winch operator.

This is Mike Robertson's operation.

- They don't have any problem selling and towing people up on...

http://vimeo.com/48762486


...defective releases.

- The Zack Marzec fatality wasn't important enough to merit a single comment from anybody from High Perspective.

- They don't teach, require, encourage, look for hook-in checks.

There are no good winch operators there.

If you watch the video again, you got too slow (airspeed) just before you moved your hands to the uprights.
You have little or no wind gradient there, but you need extra speed, not less, to deal with wind gradients.

You can get much more upright in that harness, without touching the control bar, if you use the "frog" technique in that harness (it's on my web page). Practice the "frog" while hanging in the shop, and then, when you are high.
Get good with it, before you try to land, not during the approach. You should not need to touch anything, to get upright in that harness.
Then, your transition from prone to upright can be very smooth (no unwanted glider oscillations).

Or he can just stay fully prone and in optimal control of the glider until it's down and stopped.

Don Arsenault - 2013/05/21 09:38:59 UTC

Thanks for the tips Red!

michael170 - 2013/05/22 02:46:51 UTC

Is it really too much of an effort to lift the fuckin' glider six or seven inches until you feel the hang strap go tight and that you have your leg loops a second or two before you launch?

Why bother?

http://ozreport.com/forum/files/copy_2_of_imgp1239_197.jpg
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7220/13949046702_ccfa0fafab_o.png

http://www.thekiteboarder.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/opener-532x800.jpg

They do such great things with prosthetics nowadays.

2013/05/22 04:05:21 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless

Go fuck yourself, Paul.

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/05/22 06:56:32 UTC

At a mountain site this habit can save your life.

But not at...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6406
Hook in failure

Luis Filipe Barradas - 2007/12/16 03:12:38 UTC

Tad and Peter,

I experienced the same accident, but came out only with a broken wrist.

Not accounting for the reasons that allowed me to launch without hooking up...

That's what happened:

Double release (bridle under/over bar) and hydraulic winch, foot launch, hands immediately on the bar, and going up fast, at about 45 degrees angle. The first reaction is to tight the grip, not to release; by the time you blink, you are at twenty-five feet.

One hand out of the bar, and released; could not get the hand back to the bar. Glider banking now to the left. Released the grip of my left hand, on purpose, and fell.

There was not much time for the "what if". Waiting for the 'abort' would take me much higher; I'm not saying that it was the best decision, but it was the one, at that time.

Do not try this at home.

...a foot launch tow operation.

It's a good habit to develop.

It's a CRITICAL COMPONENT of EVERY foot launched flight.

Mike Lake - 2013/05/22 10:00:17 UTC

These are my observations not necessarily criticisms but in each case I've seen it happen or had it happen to me.

1. A line break could result in that carabineer...

Please don't spell it that way. That's how Davis spells it.

...pinging back with some force.

- Only if they're using elastic line.
- Why the fuck do they need to use a multi-thousand pound carabiner at that point anyway?

One guy had this happen. His facial injuries required stitching and luckily he somehow managed to land before passing out.

Don's flying at Mike Robertson's...

Rodney Nicholson - 1986/11
Ontario Hang Gliding Association

In the third and most recent incident, the weak link broke shortly after launch and the end of the tow rope, with metal ring attached, whiplashed back and hit the spotter/winch operator in the eye. At present the chances appear ninety percent that he will lose the eye completely.

...operation. Mike's got a glass eye as a consequence of a polypro powered tow ring triggered by the focal point of his safe towing system.

2. The drogue chute is too close to the pilot. In turbulence a slack line could cause the chute to open and blow back towards the pilot/glider asking to be snagged on something.

- The initial climb out could do with a bit more speed. A line or link break close to the ground...

...or...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...at 150 feet...

...could result in a stall with no room to recover.

So can Mike dumping tension on you - just to be on the safe side. (Ask me how I know.)

A bit of surplus speed might give you a fighting chance in this situation.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

4. The twin line threader should be free from knots...

But it's just so much easier to tie a bowline than spend the two minutes it would take to splice the line.

...and twists and should be made of braided not twisted rope.
I've seen various parts of the threader get the wrong side of a wheel, wrap around instruments stalks and flying wires.
A knot free setup reduces the chance of a snag.
We changed our threader material just last year after one pilot released the top leg only to have the bottom leg untwist and loop neatly around his chest release handles!
Fortunately we do not tow blind. The winch-man guillotined the line and the pilot landed safely.

But why should they make any effort to reduce POTENTIAL problems if...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC

I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.

...they've had no ACTUAL problems hundreds of times and...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31053
Poll on releases

Davis Straub - 2013/02/22 01:27:23 UTC

I find my barrel release to be acceptable.

...find it ACCEPTABLE?

5. A hook in check is critical (of course). Tow pilots have several extra bits and pieces to deal with and are usually in the same stressful state as with any other method of launch.
You need to make sure the clip in you remember doing wasn't just the tow line!

Doug Hildreth - 1985/03

1984/05/07 - John Shook - 43 - Intermediate - Sesace, Arizona - Wills Wing Duck

Pilot with thirty to forty towing flights apparently hooked in only to the tow line and when he released at three hundred feet, pilot fell to his death.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17820
Launching unhooked with scooter tow

Mark Dowsett - 2009/11/14 00:00:30 UTC

I must admit...this has happened to us three times this year. We've just started scooter towing and it's surprisingly easy to do. We're all dolly-launched aero-tow pilots so hooking in is something we take for granted. I was the scooter operator each time and recognized it right away as soon as the glider started rising up (but the pilot didn't). Luckily we were only planning on doing low-and-slow tows and thus no swift full-tension tow.

Each time it happened, the pilot's priority was always hooking up the tow-line as they step into the control frame. I wonder why that is...? I mean, we always hook in to the glider first when dolly-launching, and then worry about the tow line.

Lesson learned (all without incident)

I do not wish to give a negative tone to this thread but an international forum is (or should be) an ideal place to share experiences and hopefully prevent the same mistakes being made over and over again.

Yeah. SHOULD BE. Anybody notice that Jack has only made two hang gliding related posts since the 2013/02/02 Zack Marzec fatality?

Mind you I have stopped holding my breath!

Good idea.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29074
More winch tow fun.

Red Howard - 2013/05/22 15:27:26 UTC

Manta_Dreaming,
Michael170,

Sorry guys, but that is a spaghetti harness that he has, there.

Yeah. So?

That means, the launch style that you want him to try is NOT safe.

Nobody said anything about his fucking launch STYLE. They were talking about his launch SEQUENCE - specifically about the most critical period of the sequence which is a second or two before his foot starts moving.

Read up on spaghetti harnesses (start with my web page) if you do not know why tight straps and spaghetti harnesses do not go together well, on launch.

I looked at your web page:

http://www.xmission.com/~red/
Red's Advice for New Hang Gliding Pilots

There's not a SINGLE REFERENCE to unhooked launches - let alone anything about how to prevent them. And that issue takes precedence over EVERYTHING ELSE in this sport. And anybody who publishes Advice for New Hang Gliding Pilots without emphatically addressing that issue is a negligent jerk.

You both owe a serious apology, here.

Get fucked, Red. I'd cut you a little slack on this one but the "just prior to launch" issue is a USHGA regulation and it's been discussed to death for DECADES.

Psilyguy,

Okay, I admit, I was surprised to see a spaghetti harness on a low time pilot. Guess you got a great deal on it, huh? I'd really recommend a pod harness for you, and sooner rather than later. A shallow-slope foot launch should NOT be attempted with a spaghetti harness, until you are at least H4-proficient with it.

Bullshit. If you stay bolt upright your feet don't get pulled off the ground. That isn't a technique that takes years to master. (Not to imply that I'm the least bit happy with spaghetti and knee hanger harnesses.)

Your launch technique with that harness was entirely appropriate, for that gear.

Yeah. So was guy's:

5:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcKebsmnVUk

3-50320
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7430/14178973962_290ea3e436_o.png

5-50423
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7424/13994978727_b6ff7ffe41_o.png

7-50506
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7362/14158429266_952429da22_o.png


There was - however - a notable omission a second or two prior.

I would guess that the former owner has given you good instruction on launch techniques with it, but PM me if not.

PM Michael170 instead.

You seem to have a back-strap where the parachute mounts, which is great. Check my web page, and verify that you have a behind-the-neck strap, also (Important Safety Note #2) in Harnesses.

- Yeah. If you're gonna keep listening to Red about skipping hook-in checks you REALLY wanna have a good system for keeping you in your harness during parachute opening shock.

- Fuck "Important Safety Note #2". You totally screwed the pooch on "Important Safety Note #1". "Important Safety Note #1" SHOULD read:

"If you didn't verify your connection sometime within the past two seconds your harness isn't connected to your glider."

And "Important Safety Note #1" should read:

"Check it again anyway."

The video did not show a hang check, which would make lots of pilots here happier, to see.

Bullshit. NEVER ONCE has any of you Jack Show assholes watched a video and commented, "I'd have been a lot happier if the video had shown you doing a hang check sometime inside of the thirty-eight second period before you committed." All you Jack Show assholes ASSUME that anyone standing in launch position has had one sometime within the past fifteen minutes and therefore must CERTAINLY be hooked in - just like the way you do when you're out at a flying site - like:
- Talcott Mountain
- East Brady
- Milfred Peak
- Fraley Mountain
- Sylmar
- Lookout
- Plowshare
- Barr Mountain
- Mont Saint-Pierre
- Coronet Peak
- Whitwell
- Mingus
- Woodside

(And if I start listing the ones at which people have SURVIVED...)

That spaghetti harness is an older concept of harnesses, and if you have it adjusted well, nothing can be more comfortable in the air. The trade-off is needing awareness and the correct techniques, on both launch and landing runs. Please feel free to set it aside, and fly with a pod harness, until you get more experience. You are not required to prove anything to anybody, especially if they have not flown in a spaghetti harness. It would be a mistake to use a harness that may cause problems for a low-time pilot, just because it maybe cost less, or you haven't found the right pod, yet. Your parachute will fit on the pod harness, as well.

Best wishes.

And keep on skipping those hook-in checks, Don. Focus on adapting your launch runs to your flavor of harness.
And do get Red to tell you why you should never perform the preflight sidewire load test specified in your Falcon owner's manual.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29074
More winch tow fun.

michael170 - 2013/05/23 19:19:00 UTC

Red Howard - 2013/05/22 15:27:26 UTC

Sorry guys, but that is a spaghetti harness that he has, there.

I can see that. Got it from Allen Sparks.

Who, given what happened to his friend of nearly three decades on Bille's first outing with the Falcon Allen had just sold him...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4046
Accident Report

Doug Koch - 2007/10/20 15:42:57 UTC
Las Vegas

We had a bad incident a couple of days ago out towing on a dry lake bed:

The Accident

A very experienced pilot (25-30 years flying) was getting his first flights on his new (used) Falcon. His first tow exhibited a strong left turn right after becoming airborne. He corrected, went to altitude, released and came back down. He spent some time pulling and adjusting battens and then got ready for his second tow.

He was towing from a standing start behind our hydraulic rig.

He signaled the drive to start the tow, became airborne and again went into a left turn. The driver saw this and released pressure on the rig. The pilot got the glider leveled off and released the tow line. He started to come in to land and at about 20 to 30 feet suddenly dropped from the glider. As he was in a semi-prone attitude he came down at an angle of a few degrees and impacted the ground on both feet and then fell forward on his face.

The impact broke both legs at the ankles and drove his shin bones out the bottom of his feet six inches.

...you'da thunk...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18876
Hang glider Crash

Allen Sparks - 2010/09/07 01:03:18 UTC

Oscar,
I'm very happy you weren't injured.
Helen,
Thanks for the Tad 'lift and tug' reminder.
I have launched unhooked and experienced the horror of hanging by my fingers over jagged rocks ... and the surreal result - i.e. not being significantly injured.
I am a firm believer in 'lift and tug' and the mindset of assuming I am not hooked in. It is motivated by the recurring memory of my own experience ... and the tragic deaths and life-altering injuries of good friends.

...might've REALLY emphasized the 'lift and tug' point to Don himself.

That means, the launch style that you want him to try is NOT safe.

I didn't suggest that I want him to try any "launch style". Read what I wrote, NOT what you think I mean.

If I had suggested a "launch style" it would have been to use a cart.

You both owe a serious apology, here.

No, his instructor owes him a serious apology for not training him to check that he is not hooked in a second or two before launch.

Mike's never really been into apologies. Wouldn't have time to do much else if he were.

Brad Barkley - 2013/05/23 20:08:23 UTC

Post deleted (2013/05/23 22:03:37 UTC). Not worth it.

DAMN! Did anyone get a chance to harvest Brad's post in the two hours it was up? It's always such a joy to rip his idiot crap to shreds.

Red Howard - 2013/05/23 21:56:46 UTC

Michael,

Does a spaghetti harness have leg loops?

Who gives a rat's ass? Every harness has got SOMETHING which prevents the pilot from sliding out of the bottom when he's upright. And whether that something is leg loops of foot straps a sufficient lift of the glider will allow the pilot to feel the resistance at the relevant points.

You did not say that he should relax the "lift" of the glider, prior to launch.
He might have thought you were saying to launch with the glider/harness straps pulled up tight.

- And given that he and Mike Robertson feel him qualified to fly a spaghetti harness he should probably already understand that you don't/can't launch with a tight spaghetti.

- And even if he:

-- didn't, just how many steps into a launch run do you think it would've taken him to figure that out and make the appropriate adjustment?

-- were too fuckin' stupid to be capable of that much just how much trouble do you think he could get into anywhere within hours of Toronto?

- And what do think his winch driver would be doing while Don was trying to get airborne with his feet being pulled off the ground?

I sure did.

Of course you did. You've never heard of a hook-in check in however many decades you've been flying and ignoring the postmortem discussions either.

michael170 - 2013/05/25 03:54:53 UTC

Does a spaghetti harness have leg loops?

I don't recall, been decades since I've seen one up close.

Ditto.

You did not say that he should relax the "lift" of the glider, prior to launch.

Fair enough. Apologies for any confusion.

You don't owe either of these assholes any apologies. It's been a wee bit shy of thirteen months since the Jon Orders / Lenami Godinez-Avila disaster on Don's side of the border, Don started flying and posting on The Jack Show two summers ago, and anybody who wasn't participating on the right side of the discussions doesn't deserve to live anyway.

He might have thought you were saying to launch with the glider/harness straps pulled up tight.

Tough shit. If I've got a choice between launching a spaghetti with straps that start and stay tight and launching a spaghetti with straps that NEVER go tight which option do you think I'm gonna take for myself and recommend to someone else?

He would have had the straps pulled up tight prior to launch had he used a cart, but he isn't using a cart, so he needs to check that he's not hooked in a second or two before launch if he wants to avoid a Bill Floyd disaster.

- Bille puts an "e" on the end of his name. (But his spelling's all over the map anyway so it probably doesn't matter that much.)

- Don obviously doesn't give any more of rat's ass about avoiding a Bille Floyd disaster than his instructor does. He's never participated in any of the discussions and he hasn't participated in this one for over four days.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29074
More winch tow fun.

Allen Sparks - 2013/05/25 14:51:12 UTC

A spaghetti harness has leg loops...

I'd have thunk it would've had to. But the last spaghetti I remember seeing was the one Frank Sauber was locked out and killed on 1996/04/28.

...but the leg loops won't tension like other harnesses, because the load is on the straps that run under each foot. This difference doesn't prevent a pilot from performing a hook-in check, 'just prior' to launch.

No difference does. You give me a glider/harness/pilot combo I can simply/easily/cleanly/cheaply engineer a solution by which the pilot can run a full check in the space of a second on his feet standing straight up at launch position.

With such a harness a 'drop and tug' hook in check would be as effective as a 'lift and tug' (IMO)

- I don't do opinions.
- Yes, it would be "as effective" BUT... It necessitates:
-- a longer delay between check and launch.
-- standing down a bit from launch readiness.
-- more time and effort.

In practice I can one hundred percent guarantee that people WILL NOT do, require, or look for it within two to five seconds of commitment and will instead interpret "JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH" as however many minutes is convenient for them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeT_1xQcklw

I look forward to a post on the t** k** site...

What the hell is the "t** k**" site? This is the K*** S****** site.

...for disparaging comments re: the lack of wheels...

It's your shoulder, dude. I'd REALLY prefer you not to tear it up again but if you do please do it somewhere other than the Lookout LZ. I've already archived a serious and minor one from there.

and the >2 second delay between hook in check and launch ...

Thirteen seconds - including a set down and pickup. Your memory and courage are both far superior to mine.

You do EIGHT CHECKS prior to the final pickup and ZERO after. ALL of those eight are serving to build your confidence. That's the LAST thing you wanna be doing. Would it kill you to just move one of them to the empty category?

P.S. Sorry to hear about your dad. I haven't read much of the stuff on him but the pdfs are on my hard drive and I'll get to them when I'm less buried.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29074
More winch tow fun.

Brian Scharp - 2013/05/25 15:15:08 UTC

Maybe you'll be spared because of the redundancy.

No. Quite the contrary.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.

Steve Davy - 2011/10/24 10:27:04 UTC

OK- how many times does he need confirm that he is hooked in? And when would be the best time to make that confirmation?

Brian McMahon - 2011/10/24 21:04:17 UTC

Once, just prior to launch.

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC

I agree with that statement.

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

All those checks he's doing prior to the final pickup are building his confidence that he's hooked in to the extent that he doesn't feel a need to check at the only time it matters.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13132
Unhooked Death Again - Change our Methods Now?

JBBenson - 2009/01/25 16:27:19 UTC

I get what Tad is saying, but it took some translation:
HANG CHECK is part of the preflight, to verify that all the harness lines etc. are straight.
HOOK-IN CHECK is to verify connection to the glider five seconds before takeoff.
They are separate actions, neither interchangeable nor meant to replace one another. They are not two ways to do the same thing.

Preflight checks are great. Do 'em all you want. Just don't EVER make the mistake of using one - or eight - to substitute for the hook-in check which MUST BE a component of your launch sequence.

Fuck you...



...Bob - and Joe.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32314
Help me decide...

Davis Straub - 2013/06/03 03:18:51 UTC

Florida Ridge - as far south as you can go.

C'mon Davis, doesn't one totally suck pretty much just as much as another?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/09 18:30:26 UTC

Because it's one of those crusty old debates that HGs love to go round and round with.
It's like uttering the word "wheels"... the conversation instantly turns into the great wheel debate.

Sorry for the interruption.
Please continue with the speculation.
I'll be over here, doing something productive.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?

But back to the root of my anger... speculation.
Much like confirmation bias, he's come here to shoehorn his pet little project into a discussion. Please take your snake oil and go elsewhere.

Tune him up?
Yeah, sorry... no.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

Ever heard of "Confirmation Bias"?
Because you're a textbook example.
You were out looking for data to support your preconceived conclusion, rather than looking at the data and seeing what it tells you... which is why this is the first time we've heard from you and your gang.

Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27909
Dragonfly Accident at Lookout

Jim Rooney - 2012/06/18 19:42:15 UTC

Not only is it realistic, it is also correct.
The pilot suffered a heart attack.

Let it go

Whitemaw - 2013/06/06 01:26:28 UTC

Final NTSB Report is out:
http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/nfso2f55zcjgzr55h0xlwauq1/X06052013120000.pdf
No heart attack:
"autopsy...revealed...death consistent with 'blunt force trauma.'...no focal myocardial lesions observed.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27909
Dragonfly Accident at Lookout

Jim Rooney - 2012/06/09 03:05:22 UTC

BTW, you have no need or use of reminding me of the other tug pilot that we lost.
She was a friend of mine...

Read: Dangerously lacking in the character assessment department.

...and an exceptionally close friend of my mates.

Fuck every last one of your "mates".

You will likewise not be able to inform me of anything regarding her accident.

Or Zack Marzec's.

Allow me to inform you.

Yeah, let's have a little more benefit of you internationally famous...

The Press - 2006/03/15

However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.

...Keen Intellect.

She was a rookie...

- So you're saying that Ridgely failed to adequately train and qualify her for the job?

- Bull fucking...

http://alancockrell.blogspot.com/2011/08/ode-to-keavy.html
Decision Height*: Ode to Keavy

Alan Cockrell - 2011/08/05

She soloed and got her license at sixteen. We missed her when she left for college. One of the most often asked questions at Moontown Airfield when her mom, Lisa, came out to fly, was, "When is Keavy coming back?"

After dazzling her professors at St. Louis University she collected an aerospace engineering degree, then got a commercial pilot certificate.

...shit.

...and it was a rookie mistake made under duress and extremely low.

Bull fucking...

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110723X95952&key=1

National Transportation Safety Board - 2011/08/02

NTSB Identification: ERA11FA413
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Saturday, July 23, 2011 in Ridgely, MD
Aircraft: MOYES DRAGONFLY, registration: N402HA
Injuries: 1 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On July 23, 2011, about 0715 eastern daylight time, a Moyes Dragonfly airplane, N402HA, operated by Highland Aerosports, was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain at Ridgely Airpark (RJD), Ridgely, Maryland. The pilot was fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 glider tow flight.

According to a flight instructor who was towed aloft by the airplane with his student in a tandem configured hang glider, it was "hot and sticky" that morning and he had briefed his student prior to the flight that it would take a longer ground roll than normal to takeoff. After they took off in tow, the flight instructor climbed the glider up to an altitude of about 15 feet above ground level (agl) behind the airplane. During the tow he observed that the airplane did not lift off until it was near the end of the grass runway. As the airplane reached the end of the runway, he saw the towline "release" from the airplane. He also observed that as the airplane reached an adjacent soybean field, that the airplane was "tickling the beans with its wheels". The flight instructor then continued straight ahead and executed a landing to that same soybean field. Then as he and his student were getting out of their harnesses. He heard the airplane above him. It was "really loud" and he wondered what the pilot was doing. Moments later he heard the airplane impact the ground behind him.

According to a witness, after the release, the airplane began to turn left while climbing until it had completed a 270 degree turn, and reached a peak altitude of approximately 200 feet agl. It then "dropped into a spin" and impacted the ground in an approximately 45 degree nose down attitude.

Examination of the airplane did not reveal any preimpact failures or anomalies with the airplane's engine or flight control system.

Instrumentation and portions of the airplane's structure were retained by the Safety Board for further examination.

...shit.

You tell me:

- why in dead morning air she dumped the glider, skimmed the soybeans, and did a climbing turn to two hundred feet before she decided to make a rookie mistake.

- why neither the tandem instructor she dumped, anyone from Ridgely, anyone from branch of the Cult of Dragonfly, Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, Bill Moyes, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, nor the NTSB has made any mention of this rookie mistake.

- how often rookies dump gliders at the ends of runways with everything straight and level but low and continue on at soybean top level before climbing out two two hundred feet and making their mistakes under "duress".

- what was supposed to be causing her "duress" after she'd dumped the glider and climbed to two hundred feet.

- how - seeing as how she was pronounced dead an hour after impact - you know she was under "duress".

- how two hundred feet constitutes "extremely low" for an aircraft that routinely takes off - with a payload of two to five hundred pounds behind it - and lands at zero feet thirty times a day.

- what "rookie mistake" she was supposed to have made which spun the Dragonfly in from two hundred feet.

- how frequently we see Dragonflies being spun down two hundred plus feet as a consequence of this "rookie mistake".

- why Ridgely didn't immediately - or EVER - clear this situation up for the NTSB and everyone else with a statement about what this obvious rookie mistake was.

- how often somebody gets killed in aviation without lining up about three rookie mistakes just right at the same time.

- why Ridgely was entrusting a rookie incapable of keeping herself alive with the lives of the muppets behind her.

Keep posting Jim. Your life is such a heap of lies and fraud that there's NOTHING you can say that doesn't flatly contradict something else you've said within the previous year, month, week, day, post, or paragraph.