launching

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29209
Just another tree landing.

Jim Rowan - 2013/06/07 09:31:40 UTC

Here's the thread from the CHGPA message board that includes the pilot's original post addressing his accident and the feedback he received from some of the local pilots.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5844
My "top landing" at Bills Hill

Jim Steel (thermalfinder) - 2013/06/07 14:37:54 UTC

Christopher LeFay - 2013/06/07 07:24:42 UTC

How? By remaining upright until clear of launch and in control...

Bingo!

Idiot!

James Robert Steel - Washington - 53390 - H4 - 1996/03/03 - James Reynolds - PA VA AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC

Doug Doerfler - 2013/06/07 14:46:41 UTC

Complete nonsense.

I guess all those people that aerotow and are prone right from the start just have no control.

As long as their Rooney Links hold they blow the foot launchers away.

This guy piling in had nothing to do with prone versus upright... he did not correct when the wing started going right, plain and simple... he should have grabbed that left down tube and yanked on it with all his might.

Bullshit. You come out of slots prone with the bar back far enough to not need to do any stupid gymnastics.

Red Howard - 2013/06/07 14:54:58 UTC

Staying upright may give you good roll control...

It...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height...

...DOESN'T.

...but all the roll control in the world will not turn a stalled glider.
The pilot doesn't want to hear it...

The pilot totaled his U2. He doesn't NEED to hear it. He had enough feedback before he came to a rest to last many lifetimes.

...but he got too slow after launch, and he never tried to fix that. Turn inputs will NOT help, then.
Since he gave away his control, the air took over, and here's a tree.

A fast launch and holding good speed would have prevented all the rest.
When upright, you really can not pull in enough, to recover from that situation.

How well can you really pull in...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


...flying a one point bridle? How many more people do we hafta kill before we can come to a consensus...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22233
Looking for pro-tow release

Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC

Incorrect understanding.

...on something THAT fuckin' straightforward and obvious?

Carole Sherrington - 2013/06/07 15:05:22 UTC
Chelmsford, Essex

It seemed to me that the pilot was concentrating on matters other than getting away from the hill safely.

Yes.

He was already banked when he decided to transition to prone and briefly applied a little right bank input too.

Seeing as how he intended to turn that way why is that particularly surprising?

I'm guessing he was actioning his flight plan a little ahead of where he should have been.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5844
My "top landing" at Bills Hill

Felix Cantesanu - 2013/05/05 15:58:26 UTC

I wanted to make sure and stay in the lift band and initiated a right turn - THE great mistakes I see: I should of turned left, towards the North since the strongest gusts were coming in from that direction; also I was not well clear of the terrain yet (it felt like I was but I should of kept going out more).

Staying upright longer wouldn't have been a bad thing!

Just like if it's gotten to the point where you have to release because of an impending lockout...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Carole Sherrington - 2012/09/23 23:52:53 UTC

If it's got to the point where you have to release because of an impending lock-out, taking your hands off the control bar won't make much of a difference.

...taking your hands off the control bar won't be a bad thing!

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29209
Just another tree landing.

Glenn Zapien - 2013/06/07 15:37:25 UTC

Bows and ribbons. The same mistakes always keep happening in this sport.

And whose fault is that? How come people aren't getting consistent reality based messages from their instructors before they're qualified to operate in demanding environments?

Ego, and reluctance to grab the hand that is trying to help will get you killed.

Yeah?

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

How 'bout trying to cut off the hand that's trying to help?

When in doubt, pull in. Noman used to tell people all the time, "Pull in or you're gonna die, mutherfucker!"

Noman also tells people to only get in their harnesses when they're connected to their gliders so they can then move from the setup area...

Noman Shows Us the Bossie Method
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg_ixvWWtlw
TumblingHangGliders - 2012/07/13
dead

...to launch position and run off the mountain without complying with USHGA SOPs and verifying that they're hooked in just before they commit. And that bullshit gets people killed. So fuck Noman.

No wait. Aussie Methodist. They don't NEED to verify their connections just prior to launch. If they're in a harness no fuckin' way they're not connected to a glider.

Felix, I helped carry a pilot who died getting turned back into the hill. He simply stalled back into the hill. Only thing that caught him was the only boulder on the side of that hill. The other pilot who ran down there with me and we were first to get to him, quit flying because of that accident.

Too bad he's not as resilient as the good folk at Quest. Whenever they dump someone into a fatal whipstall they just say that we engage in a sport that has risk, that that is part of the attraction, and sometimes shit just happens.

He had brain matter coming out of his ears onto my hands I later found out from the EMT.

Well, at least he died doing what he loved.

This is aviation man! Open the ears, and listen. I fly over that spot, and still think of Mark.

And maybe a bit later this season you'll be flying over that spot thinking of Doug...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NITMQkOrm-Y


...a pilot who lived and breathed hang gliding despite the overwhelming and permanent disabilities he got when he eighty percent killed himself doing stupid shit like that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFadjwZgmU

05-4321c

07-4625c

08-4923c

10-5024c


...two and a half years ago.

And that happened over four years ago. When I launch, I get away from that hill with that intention. When it's gusting, I especially give the mountain a decent gap of airspace.

Afterall, the mountain doesn't care what that card in your wallet says.

Why should it? When you have massively incompetent assholes signing off and promoting other massively incompetent assholes and tug jockeys making up whatever rules suit them and totally disregarding any that don't what's the point in HAVING cards? I'll bet you could rack up a pretty good list of people who've been killed in hang glider crashes who'd have been fine if they'd never had any instruction at all and just learned to fly by reading conventional aviation texts.

And another thing, coastal flying is a different discipline than inland. No airspeed makes you another leaf in the wind.

So does a piece of fishing line...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...which very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for that form of towing.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29209
Just another tree landing.

Brian Scharp - 2013/06/07 15:37:39 UTC

Jim Rowan - 2013/06/07 09:31:40 UTC

Here's the thread from the CHGPA message board...

Thanks JR.

Fuck JR...

Felix is fortunate to be surrounded by such talent.

...and the rest of those CHGA assholes.

Gary's right, Felix has earned my respect.

Why should anything related to that incident cause anybody to either lose or gain respect for him?

Mailman777 - 2013/06/07 18:52:46 UTC
Iowa

Thanks to everyone who contributed...

Minus, of course, Khalesh and Christopher.

...and the pilot for making the mistake and being willing to take and digest critiques.

Not that he really had a whole lot of choice.

It will help a lot of us new kids out.

- It shouldn't.
- You new kids really oughta be reading the stuff that Jack, Davis, The Industry, and USHGA don't want you to hear over here.

I'm glad you were safe!

He wasn't. He just came out OK.

Poor wing

Yes.

Brian Horgan - 2013/06/07 19:42:01 UTC

Jim Rowan - 2013/06/07 09:31:40 UTC

Here's the thread from the CHGPA message board...

hey how about posting some footage of you flying so we all know your not full of crap when you give advise.I want proof your not a armchair pilot.Just to get things straight here,I think you are a hang 2 class pilot with no real experience.So once again lets see some footage!Please prove me wrong and then i will shut up.

Hey Brian...

Here's some footage of Zack Marzec and all the really cool dudes at Quest flying:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4owd0akd0


They do NOTHING *BUT* fly so you know with ABSOLUTE *CERTAINTY* that they're not full of crap when they give ADVISE. Probably not a fag amongst them neither. Asshole.

Fred Bickford - 2013/06/07 19:43:28 UTC

Doug Doerfler - 2013/06/07 14:46:41 UTC

I guess all those people that aerotow and are prone right from the start just have no control.

Your roll authority is better upright than prone. A one arm pull up on an upright is moving more weight mass.

Load o' crap.

Christopher LeFay - 2013/06/07 20:31:29 UTC

Red Howard - 2013/06/07 14:54:58 UTC

Staying upright may give you good roll control...

1) I mentioned the importance of airspeed first thing- and moved on: the topic was well covered.

You've never covered anything well in your life.

2) The glider was slow- not stalled.

It shouldn't have been.

The sluggish roll response in slow flight makes the authoritative weight shift even more important. By all means, pull in- but speed takes time to develop, AND YOU MAY NOT HAVE THAT TIME. In this case, an all-in turn input could have made a difference at a moment when anything less could not.

Fuckin' waste of time.

- Do the goddam launch right and save the crap about doing stupid gymnastics after you've done things wrong.

- It is ALWAYS better to be prone with two hands on the basetube than upright with fewer than two hands on the basetube - unless you're landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place, in which case I don't give a flying fuck what you do or what happens to you.

Sometimes we drop the ball-

Virtually always as a consequence of not having both hands on the basetube.

...and if you don't position yourself to do the things you must at those times, you will fail.

Good. The more videos I get of downtube pilots slamming in the happier I am. (I wonder how much hard drive space I have left at this point.)

No time for belling or cross controlling. You can set your angle of attack perfect, have a strong, controlled launch- and encounter a monster thermal in that first moment aloft that sends the nose high, robs air speed-

And you REALLY wanna be upright - or at least be towing one point - when that happens.

...and gives the gift of an unwanted turn. Hey there, tree- can you wait a moment so I can build a bit of airspeed to turn this beast? No? How about a hug then?

Do you really believe this crap, Christopher? Or does Matt pay you bonuses for trolling these discussions? (This is the first time I've ever called someone a troll.)

I'm loath to call you out, Red, as I appreciate much of your sage advice-

-but in the interest of hammering...

Hammering being the operative word here.

...home the all important airspeed mantra, you are needlessly disregarding a critical technique.

Get fucked.

Doug Doerfler - 2013/06/07 14:46:41 UTC

This guy piling in had nothing to do with prone versus upright... he did not correct when the wing started going right, plain and simple... he should have grabbed that left down tube and yanked on it with all his might.

Read me again: that is exactly what I said. "All of his might" really means all of his weight displaced and held- and that is easiest attained upright.

Yeah, you're both full of shit on that one.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29209
Just another tree landing.

NMERider - 2013/06/07 21:04:32 UTC

Christopher LeFay - 2013/06/07 20:31:29 UTC

The glider was slow- not stalled. The sluggish roll response in slow flight makes the authoritative weight shift even more important. By all means, pull in- but speed takes time to develop, AND YOU MAY NOT HAVE THAT TIME. In this case, an all-in turn input could have made a difference at a moment when anything less could not...

Not quite Christopher.

For interested pilots:

The glider was mushing in turbulent air. No amount of sideways weight shifting will make enough of a difference before the glider locks into a downwind mush and crashes. This has very little to do with airspeed now and everything to do with angle of attack. Not airspeed.

Low airspeed is a synonym for high angle of attack - and vice versa.

You see that when in a mush the glider is stalled in the center but the tips are still flying.

Yeah. The glider's got a high angle of attack and low airspeed.

And so the amount of weight shift required is well past the width of the control frame.

If the pilot quickly pulls in...

Best done upright with your hands at ear level...

...and lowers his angle of attack the center of the wing will start flying again. Since the airspeed may be low, the glider will enter a slight dive to regain airspeed for normal flight but that part doesn't matter in this situation. What matters is that whatever lift the glider is producing comes from more from the center of the wing than from the tips.

This effectively restores roll authority to the pilot REGARDLESS of the air speed. Angle of attack is everything and airspeed is secondary.

Pure rot.

To all pilots who are interested in learning how to avoid winding up in a downwind mush and crashing like this pilot I suggest you listen up.

Pull the control bar in and get your angle of attack down. Screw your airspeed and obey your angle of attack. Once your AoA of down where it belongs you will once again be able to steer your glider and if your airspeed is too low all that means is the glider will nose down as it regains airspeed for normal flight.

In the meantime you WILL be able to steer the glider. Got that everyone?

Yeah Jonathan. Pull in and get your airspeed up / angle of attack down - from the fucking basetube and prone.

mrcc - 2013/06/07 22:03:32 UTC
Auckland

You are certainly correct in what you have said.

Pull in for roll control yes. But the distinctions he's trying to make between airspeed and angle of attack are crap.

In power aircraft for visual flight the horizon is used as the reference.

Bullshit. The horizon is used as the reference for the horizon. It doesn't tell you shit about your airspeed / angle of attack. You can be pointed straight up - like Jonny Durand here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoYoSx22SuE

6-64100


7-64120

and in great shape with respect to airspeed / angle of attack. Oor you can be be pointed straight down - like idiot fucking Ben Dunn here:



and temporarily or permanently fucked.

Whereas HG we use bar position for referencing angle of attack.

We're total fucking morons. A couple of seconds before Zack Marzec's fatal tumble he had the bar stuffed - and an airspeed of around zero miles per hour. Probably less than that for a little bit.

Glenn Zapien - 2013/06/07 22:09:57 UTC

Can AoA work without airspeed? Can airspeed work without AoA in this application?

I dunno, Glenn. Why don't you pray on the matter for a while and get back to us?

I think it was a series of things that got him to the position of hitting the trees. AoA wrong on launch, low airspeed, no correction, push out into the trees.

God doesn't have all fuckin' day, ya know...

Where you at Ryan?

Yeah. Let's get RYAN...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 14:23:55 UTC

Running to the right = weight shift to the right.

It's all about what the glider feels. Running to the right pulls the hang loop to the right, just like when you weight shift at 3,000 ft. Glider doesn't know or care what means you used to pull the hang loop to the right.

...into the conversation.

Oh wait...

Yeah. One less headache to deal with.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ

01-1203
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3873/14559992972_97b1a2a525_o.png

07-1412
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3900/14557433291_0d22597fd6_o.png

11-1513
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2926/14374222698_ed4d1c396d_o.png

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29209
Just another tree landing.

Jim Steel - 2013/06/07 22:58:23 UTC

Red Howard - 2013/06/07 14:54:58 UTC

Staying upright may give you good roll control...

If course, you are correct and I think Mavi made that point. But I agree with Mavi that pilots, specifically this pilot, are better off remaining upright until clear of launch and in control.

Bullshit. Felix going and being prone had NOTHING to do with putting him back into the slope. He had optimum control authority that he both failed to use and failed to use properly.

Translated: don't be so quick to get yer feet in the harness...

Why not?

- Kicking into a pod is a NONISSUE.

http://vimeo.com/6135297


It's brain dead easy and there's never been an associated incident (although I believe a couple of people have been killed trying to kick into cocoons in the earlier days).

- Felix is probably kicked in two or three seconds after committing, it had no bearing on the events, and neither he, any of the eyewitnesses, any of the video viewers, nor any discussion participants have suggested it as a factor.

...and hands on the control bar...

Yeah. Why would anyone interested in CONTROLLING the glider want his hands on the CONTROL bar? Everybody knows you can control the glider MUCH better from the downtubes.

We should probably just rename the components. Call the downtubes control tubes and the control bar the control tubes coupler.

...fly the glider first (and don't stall) to get away from the hill.

Yeah. He's well aware of that now. We're ALL pretty aware of that now.

2013/06/08 08:37:07 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Go fuck yourself, Christopher.

Paul Hurless - 2013/06/07 23:40:11 UTC

You have a greater mechanical advantage by being at the end of a longer moment arm like when you are using the control bar instead of holding on to the downtubes. It takes less effort to make a control input that way.

And you can get SPEED. And speed dwarfs just about all other issues.

Fred Bickford - 2013/06/08 02:08:04 UTC

Yeah it's more effort, but in a turn at a low airspeed...

Don't make turns at low airspeed close to the surface.

...you can rotate the other direction faster buy hanging and pulling in from an upright. It moves the C.G. forward and to the side when you put all your weight on an upright.

Fuck that.

When you're flying it's easier to steer the wing from the control bar.

And when is it a good idea NOT to be flying?

2013/06/08 08:38:31 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Go fuck yourself, Christopher.

Doug Doerfler - 2013/06/08 04:55:50 UTC

Your hang strap...(the part that is intended to have your weight on) attaches to the keel, king post, etc. forward of where the down tubes attach... so how does putting weight on your down tube move your center of gravity forward?

It doesn't matter where anything attaches. All that matters is where your center of mass is in relation to the wing.

Again I call complete BS on this idea that you can correct better/more when upright.

Until we start seeing highly skilled and accomplished XC and aerobatics pilots spending a lot of time upright at altitude and more time upright at takeoff and landing than your average Joe or new victim of Lookout or Windsports training you're pretty safe on that call.

Stay prone and pull that control bar over till your down tube is at your shoulder... even if you grab the bottom of the down tube to yank it over.

If you're flying fast enough you'll probably never need to do that.

Fred Bickford - 2013/06/08 05:31:36 UTC

Because where you are holding on, say 12 inches up from the corner bracket, is ahead of your hang point. Same as doing a push-up on the control bar changes the CG more forward.

You can't do a pushup from trim position - it'll be a pushback and you'll stall. You hafta have your hands under your shoulders to do a pushup. People who do pushups from the bar dive the glider because they're pulling the bar back to get their hands under their shoulders.

2013/06/08 08:39:59 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Go fuck yourself, Christopher.

Flyking - 2013/06/08 05:44:43 UTC
Ogden

Looked like a decent thermal day.

Looked more like a decent ridge day.

He should of flown straight out and not turned into the hill.

He knows that now.

Poor AOA on launch...

He was OK on launch.

...and then stalled the glider when he turned into the hill.

He knows that now.

He needs to go back to a SS glider...

BULLSHIT. I'd loan him a T2 TODAY and have ZERO worries about him blowing another launch.

...with no trees around.

Like at a tow site?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29209
Just another tree landing.

Christopher LeFay - 2013/06/08 09:17:05 UTC

Doug Doerfler - 2013/06/08 04:55:50 UTC

Your hang strap...(the part that is intended to have your weight on)...

This is where your thinking is diverging. First, the weight is displaced regardless: the strap can be totally slack. Why?

Because you started your launch run...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL00UefQqZA

1-001


2-005

...under the assumption that you were connected to your glider.

You are hanging from the down tube.

For a while...

Joe Gregor - 2006/01

Witness reports and later review of two videos taken of the launch indicate that the accident pilot had lost his grip on the glider as soon as it began pulling out from the dive.

...anyway.

Most every control frame these days is raked forward...

To position the upper ranges of the downtubes way aft to provide really good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaTu5Y4WBdY

18-3704


...flare authority.

...so in doing so, you are also moving the center of mass forward. The glider doesn't care if you are hanging from a strap, the down tube, or a wing tip- only how much mass is displaced, and how far.

Yes.

Again I call complete BS on this idea that you can correct better/more when upright.

If you haven't had success turning with authority while upright, the problem was likely in the execution.

And if you have trouble holding the nose down while towing one point you probably just need more practice.

From what you've said, the technique makes no sense to you; I reckon you've never actually tried to turn the way I've described- let alone with resistance or opposing force.

Or needed to.

Stay prone and pull that control bar over till your down tube is at your shoulder... even if you grab the bottom of the down tube to yank it over.

This may be another divergent experience: not everyone is an Olympic gymnast. The strength required in the relatively weak prone position to shift all of your weight over to the control frame of a high wing can be formidable- or in big instability, impossible. Ever get turned out of a thermal? Then you know what that feels like. Even for that imaginary Olympian, there is a thermal out there that will reverse a 45 degree turn.

Up high where it won't matter. And because you were flying SLOWLY to best utilize the lift and maximize your climb.

But when you're LAUNCHING or LANDING or near the surface for some other reason it DOES matter so you don't fly slowly. The solution is to fly FAST - not some stupid bullshit involving going upright for better roll authority at one and a half miles per hour over stall speed.

Ever try opening a sticky jar? Sure you have. Ever try doing that with the jar raised over your head? Of course not. Most likely, you drew the jar in close to your chest- and your hands where much closer to the position of which I speak- and for much the same reason.

Yeah, THAT makes perfect sense. I never thought about it that way before.

Last edited by Christopher LeFay on 2013/06/08 12:09:36 UTC; edited 1 time in total

Maybe you should try editing this a few more times. And maybe try bottled water for a few days - instead of whatever it is that's coming out of the ground down there.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29209
Just another tree landing.

Dave Hopkins - 2013/06/08 14:41:21 UTC

Videos are great. If we survive a bad situation they give us the chance to see, understand and fix all our mistakes.

Yeah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


Right.

Some times our mistakes are ingrain bad habits that we have been getting away with because we were flying a glider that was saving us from our selves. I seriously hope this pilot is getting his head and act together on the basics.

2-005

There are many dead and maimed pilots that didn't get that chance. One recent death in OZ. Hit rocks instead of trees.
A blown launch here at Ellenville. Pilot did much the same thing. All the wrong inputs. He hit bushes. His head missed the rocks by a fraction of an inch.

Now let's hear about all the horrors befalling gliders being towed with proper equipment.

LETTING GO IS THE WRONG THING TO DO IN A REAL CRASH !

It's also the wrong thing to do when a towed glider is getting out of control or locking or locked out.

The one instinct we should have during a crash is to get our head up , butt and legs down , backside will rotate toward the front on impact !
THAT MEANS > Get off the base tube GRAB THE TOP OF ONE UPRIGHT AND PULL OUR LEGS UP > TURN THAT WING INTO A CRUMPLE ZONE.
When a glider is stalled and slipping toward the hill or ground we are almost weightless. IT IS EASY TO ROTATE UP AND GRAB THE UPRIGHT ! Don't be surprised( paralyzed by fright) that a great pilot like you is crashing. It can happen to any of us. PROTECT YOUR HEAD ! USE THE GLIDER AS YOUR LAST CHANCE TO WALK WAY and laugh and drink with our friends.

Kids, you might wanna be a little leery of taking advice from someone who's this good at surviving serious crashes.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=camduZD4UDw

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29575
another blown launch !!

Dave Hopkins - 2013/07/23 13:43:34 UTC

An other blown launch at Ellenville sunday.
Same ole situation. Third in the past yr.
High performance glider , Topless, light wind straight in.
Poor technique . Not running fast enough, long enough. Not loading the glider on the hang strap and making it pull you off. lack of proper pitch control.

Pilot was unhurt . Glider > broken keel , big rip in bottom surface. very lucky!
A funky aspect of the NW launch at Ellenville is that near the botton the slope actually flattens a bit. this means that if you are low and slow you don't have room to pullin. Pilots usually push out a bit and that is the death neld. Usually one tip stalls , drops and you spin into the rocks and bushes below.

I've notice that many pilots flying topless wings don't have a good understanding of the finesse it takes to do a light wind slope launch.
I will point out that it is very easy to over pitch the topless wings. meaning we tell it to fly much faster then we can run. the result is the wing gets ahead of us. Pulls the nose even more and it goes bad from there.

I feel bad . I may have prevented the incident with some good advice.

So how many wheel, platform, and dolly tow launches:
- have we blown this year?
- that didn't involve Rooney Links increasing the safety of the towing operation have we blown this year?