But more importantly, see what I said above about stalls. Two weeks ago I witnessed a pilot get out of position on tow near the ground. He was not locked out as he was able to start moving the glider back into horizontal alignment. In the fight, however, he let his nose get high and the weak link (130 pound) broke. The opinions of me, the pilot, and two witnesses I spoke with were that he could have recovered had the weak link not broken. Because his angle of attack was already high when it broke, he stalled, lost a lot of altitude, and was only barely able to recover (dragging a wingtip). Had it happened with less altitude, it could have been fatal.
Great job getting your shit together, loyal Jack Show zombies.
Also, the pilot that broke a wrist suffered a premature release, not a weak link break (although the outcome would have been the same). I'll point here:
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground. Since then, Lookout went through the trouble of "sizing" their carts to help avoid that. They even made a handy plywood gauge you could hold up to your keel and verify the AOA was good.
for another weak link related crash to compensate (yes, there were other factors there as well).
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC
Why is the devil always in the fine print, and incidentally in the things people *don't* say.
You mean like when somebody asks one of you assholes to explain...
Can you explain, then, exactly how we arrived at the current 130 lb weak link standard?
...exactly how we arrived at the current 130 lb weak link standard?
Yes, go read that incident report.
You mean the one that Matt dutifully wrote up and submitted to Tim Herr for publication in the magazine to help us all run tighter ships.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass.
Then why wasn't that very specifically pointed out in the "incident report" for the benefit of those of us muppets who lack your Keen Intellect? Why wasn't that made crystal clear so that bozos like Zack wouldn't COMPLETELY misinterpret the incident and be tempted to use a STRONGER weak link - the PRECISE OPPOSITE of what he SHOULD be doing?
She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability.
I thought that people allowed on launch carts...
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2009/03
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-C. Aerotow Special Skill Endorsement (AT)
The aerotow skill is a demonstration of the pilot's ability to launch and tow successfully and safely behind a flying tow vehicle. This special skill is available to Novice and above rated pilots, and may be demonstrated through foot launch, "dolly" launch or other launch procedures. Pilots participating in aerotowing are required to have the aerotow special skill or be under the supervision of an Aerotow Official and are required by the FAA to carry a copy of FAA Tow Exemption #4144. See Addendum 2 - Exemption #4144 (Towing). In order to receive the endorsement, a pilot must demonstrate the following to an Aerotow Official:
1. Demonstrates the assembly and preflight of the system, including inspection of the tow line, tow line connection, release pre-flight.
2. Demonstrates understanding of signals between tow vehicle pilot and glider pilot. Must demonstrate system set up and pre-flight, including a complete discussion of all those factors which are particular to the specific aero tow system used and those factors which are relevant to aero towing in general. Must demonstrate complete understanding of both normal and emergency procedures, including checklists for normal procedures and the indications of an impending emergency and convince the instructor of his ability to execute emergency procedures.
3. Gives a complete discussion of the dangers to the glider pilot and tow vehicle pilot of improper positioning in flight of the glider pilot and improper management by the glider pilot of tow line tension. Discusses methods for controlling and correcting towline tension.
4. Demonstrates successful, confident, controlled launches and flight under tow to release at altitude, with a smooth transition to flying, with proper directional and pitch control resulting in proper tracking of the aero tow vehicle in both straight and turning flight and appropriate maintenance of proper tow line tension and airspeed. Should demonstrate the ability to control the glider position relative to the aero tow vehicle. Such demonstrations should be made in typical soaring conditions. A minimum of 5 such successful demonstrations must be made.
5. Must convince the evaluator that he understands the correct use of airspeed to achieve maximum distance over the ground in various conditions of wind, lift, sink, etc. The pilot must also convince the evaluator that he understands likely presence of wind, lift, and sink over various types of terrain.
...were supposed to have undergone some sort of training and demonstrated some sort of competence and proficiency at aerotowing.
What do you think the problem is with Lookout's aerotow operation? Are the instructors:
- totally incompetent?
- just selling ratings to anyone with a credit card?
Why are their tug drivers pulling people with no towing ability? Do you think they get a percentage on downtube sales?
Wouldn't you think this policy of pulling people with no towing ability would really slow things down on good weekends - what with all the ambulances, choppers, stretchers, EMTs, cops?
She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
What you're watching is Davis coming out of the cart at Mach5.
...DAVIS insists on doing.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.
- It never goes well but people insist on doing it.
- Sounds a lot like...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...standup landings. In that case everybody's being compelled, forced, and/or brainwashed to do it.
- So why do you think so many people are insisting on sitting on the cart and taking off at Mach 5 if it never goes well?
- Who ARE these people? Why do they still have AT ratings?
- I've never seen these people. Surely there must be scores of videos if so many people insist on doing it. Can you refer me to one?
- If it never goes well where are the incident reports? Don't you think it's a bit odd that Dr. Trisa Tilletti hasn't written a Higher Education article or circulated an advisory on this widespread and serious issue?
- How come Davis, on the one hand, has so little towing ability that...
What you're watching is Davis coming out of the cart at Mach5.
...he sits on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and takes to the air at Mach 5 but, on the other hand, he's qualified to fly a two hundred pound Morningside Link because...
Carful who you put stock in mate.
Calling blindrodie a fool? Seriously? Easily discounted?
You may not have an understanding of who you're brushing off... In lieu of some people that have been listening to the rantings of, I kid you not, a convicted pedophile. I'm willing to look past the messenger... To a point. But gimme a break... You're blowing off a tug pilot instead?
Maybe even better. It's not like he was some ranting convicted pedophile.
...out of a low lockout...
How many other people do you know who try to drag themselves out of lockouts?
...instead of accepting the fact that he was too far out of position and hitting the damn release, pulling the nose in...
Yes, this is very much about safety. What happened at Quest last month has only reinforced my position.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC
My god my head hurts.
Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.
Again, tell me how all this nonsense is about "safety"?
So, a stronger weaklink allows you to achieve higher AOAs... but you see high AOAs coupled with a loss of power as *the* problem? So you want something that will allow you to achieve even higher AOAs?
Are you NUTS?
I'm tired of arguing with crazy.
As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.
You've done a great job of convincing me never to tow you.
Thank you for that.
Mission accomplished.
William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC
We probably never will know.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC
Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.
Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
...SPECULATION?
It doesn't work the other way around.
And Arlan, in addition to being a tandem aerotow instructor and tug pilot was a real expert on Rooney Link terminated lockouts - having just towed Mike Haas to his death a bit over fourteen months prior.
Paul Tjaden said he would appreciate an apology from me for calling his wife the weak link at Quest Air. I apologize.
Paul said he would appreciate an APOLOGY from you for calling Lauren the WEAK LINK at Quest Air?! Since when in hang gliding did the WEAK LINK become a BAD thing?
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
A weak link is the focal point of a safe towing system.
A weak link is a very simple device--typically a loop of line--that is intended to break in the event towline tensions exceed a safe or desired threshold.
A weak link is a fuse that protects the equipment--your body!--on an overloaded circuit.
Always use a weak link when towing--WEAK LINKS SAVE LIVES.
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.
I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!
See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.
Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden...
- The focal point of Quest's safe towing operation.
- Protects your body in an overloaded circuit.
- SAVES LIVES.
- Improves the safety of aerotowing.
- Saves gliders, tow pilots, and glider pilots who do not get off tow when they get too far out of whack.
- A good thing to have! (Especially if she never comes into play!)
- Has a long track record, has been slowly refined, proven, works.
- Allows thousands of incompetent pilots who can't be trusted to hit the release the joy of hundreds of thousands of safe aerotows.
It was, after all, the standard aerotow weak link...
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC
You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
...which prevented Zack Marzec from getting EVEN *MORE* killed at Quest on 2013/02/02.
Calling Lauren the weak link at Quest Air is like calling Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain the Gibraltar of the Little Round Top. I'd say that PAUL owes YOU an apology for asking you to apologize to LAUREN.
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground. Since then, Lookout went through the trouble of "sizing" their carts to help avoid that. They even made a handy plywood gauge you could hold up to your keel and verify the AOA was good.
Why is the devil always in the fine print, and incidentally in the things people *don't* say.
Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 06:02:32 UTC
Santa Cruz Flats Race
Casa Grande, Arizona
We were launching in light cross winds. I got on the cart but noticed that the back was too high. I ignored it and off we went. Then the glider was stuck to the cart. I finally jiggled it off the cart, but zoomed right up and blew the weaklink. Now I had to land down wind or cross wind. I tried hard as I could to get the glider to turn into the wind, but no luck (as I was only twenty feet high). So I just flared at the last second and that worked, although I was covered in dust.
It appears that DAVIS had THE EXACT SAME ISSUE as this muppet that Lookout took a chance on. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke. Obvious lack of towing ability. The weaklink *saved* his ass - as it had to.
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
...further applauding Bobby's efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing with this better weak link material on this occasion. He was obviously in imminent danger of locking out within the next second or two and is only with us today because his Rooney Link increased the safety of the towing operation just in time.
I was not the only one breaking weaklinks as it seemed for a while every third pilot was having this problem.
...he was not the only one having his ass saved that round by his Rooney Link as a consequence of his lack of towing ability - as it seemed for a while that every third pilot was having that problem.
Or was the problem for the Lockout Mountain Flight Park muppet, not a lack of towing ability, but that...
You've got to get the keel cradle set right.
Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC
Since then, Lookout went through the trouble of "sizing" their carts to help avoid that. They even made a handy plywood gauge you could hold up to your keel and verify the AOA was good.
...the keel cradle was set too high?
Is it possible that she actually DID have competent towing ability and was getting things under control just as well as Davis - who we all know has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who - was in his situation before the Rooney Link increased the safety of the towing operation?
And if the problem that Lookout Muppet and Davis and every third pilot at the Santa Cruz Flats Race had was solely that the keel support was being set too high...
Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC
Soddy Daisy
Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder. It was a hang gliding helmet, don't remember the specifics though.
It was a full face helmet. Because if it HADN'T been...
...I one hundred percent guarantee you that there'd have IMMEDIATELY been huge moronic discussions about the dangers of flying with open face helmets.
And for the same reason - on top of the fact that it blew...
Donnell Hewett - 1981/10
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...
...at the worst possible time, when the glider was climbing hard in a near stall situation and saved her ass - we know to an absolute certainty that she was flying an Industry Standard Rooney Link.
Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
Yeah Jim, let's read some more on that "report"...
Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC
Soddy Daisy
Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder. It was a hang gliding helmet, don't remember the specifics though.
So - given that it was an absolute certainty that she'd have locked out and slammed in if her Industry Standard Rooney Link HADN'T kicked in, appointed itself Pilot In Command, and increased the safety of the towing operation - yeah, we note that it *saved* her ass. But it did so at the expense of piling her in on her chest and face, tearing her shoulder, breaking her jaw in several places, and ending her hang gliding career.
Questions...
- Might she have fared better destroying her ass than tearing up her shoulder and breaking her jaw in several places?
- Is the kind of impact that can tear up a shoulder and break a jaw in several places also capable of breaking a neck and leaving the pilot dead - or worse?
- Is there any possibility that she'd have been able to RELEASE herself early enough in the subsequent inevitable lockout to end up in better shape than she did as a consequence of her Rooney Link kicking in as Pilot In Command?
- Is there any possibility that her professional tug driver would have been able to RELEASE herself early enough in the subsequent inevitable lockout to leave in better shape than she did as a consequence of her Rooney Link kicking in as Pilot In Command?
Lookout Muppet had been qualified to solo by an operation with SAFETY...
David W. Johnson - 2009/04/11 05:46:23 UTC
Trussville, Alabama
I have the loop style that LMFP makes. Matt is particular about the quality of the product that goes out and you will get something reliable. I was there one time when they had a new person make a batch of them. Matt was unhappy with the quality and cut them all in half to ensure they could not be sent out. I hope that tells you about their quality.
- No tandem training.
- Very first aerotow.
- Flies it like a truck tow.
- Has plenty of time to bring the glider back down.
- Has opportunities to release when he:
-- first rolls to the right
-- rolls back to the left
-- starts rolling back to the right and into the lockout
- His driver has opportunities to release him when he:
-- first rolls to the right
-- rolls back to the left
-- starts rolling back to the right and into the lockout
- Even with a full severe low level lockout he pulls out of the recovery stall with the glider level and plenty of airspeed.
- He only gets hurt as a consequence of pushing his luck and trying to wang it back into the wind from a couple of feet off the deck.
- The only injury he sustains is a broken nose.
- While he's lost his appetite for aerotowing he continues his hang gliding career.
Any chance that we might increase the safety of the towing operations a little better by putting more trust in some of the PILOTS involved - even some of the ones who haven't been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who - than...
Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.
Both Lookout Muppet and Currituck Zack:
- shot up behind their Dragonflies until they were very clearly provided protection from excessive angles of attack by their Rooney Links
- experienced severe stalls the instant their Rooney Links very clearly provided protection from excessive angles of attack
- ended up in crumpled heaps back on the runway with their flying careers over
If blowing tow were the correct call in either of those incidents...
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.
...why did none of the four pilots - three of whom were highly qualified and experienced professionals - apparently make no effort whatsoever to execute that decision or, with respect to the survivors, report it as appropriate? (Not that an inappropriate action in the latter case could've made the results more problematic.)
Yeah, damn those pesky safety devices!
Remember kids, always blame the equipment.
...safety device that leaves the person it's protecting badly or fatally injured on a runway with a broken glider and is considered to have functioned so flawlessly that it's continued to be used without modification or revision.
Sure, being on tow at the wrong time is an extremely bad thing. But don't tell us that being off tow at the wrong time is all sweet and wonderful. Yes, we prepare for it, but that doesn't make it a safe situation. It makes it a manageable situation.
A low level lockout is ALSO a MANAGEABLE situation. We know this because:
As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.
You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
- if we're ever in a situation in which we can't or don't want to let go we can just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell - and thus our asses will be saved.
But if a someone like Lookout Muppet has so little towing ability that she can't be trusted to respond to the lockout that will inevitably result from her rocketing off the cart she and needs to have her ass saved by a Rooney Link, what makes you think that she'll be any better prepared for managing the manageable situation of being off tow at the wrong time?
- If a manageable situation isn't properly managed isn't it possible for it to become a DANGEROUS situation?
- Is there some limit on the severity of the consequences of failing to manage a manageable situation?
- Could the consequences of an unmanaged manageable situation actually be worse than the consequences of an unmanaged dangerous situation?
- Is it conceivable that a poor decision, action, or execution of a muppet could result in a less severe outcome than the arbitrary decision of a piece of fishing line?
- Aren't you just rolling dice with people's lives when you decide to tow with 130 pound test strength Pilots In Command muppets you don't trust?
- Is there some other flavor if hang gliding in which less than perfect pilots are denied the opportunity to make their own decisions and mistakes and crash, get injured, die, or learn and improve from them?
- Do you forbid your paragliding students from flying in thermal conditions because they MIGHT experience collapses from which they MIGHT NOT be able to recover?
- Who do you think is more likely to die in thermal conditions? An aerotowed hang gliding muppet with a two G weak link or an advanced rated competition paraglider pilot?
Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.
In the past, I've flown for many years with wheels. I used them (solo) once just to try them out. I always used them when flying tandem. A few times they saved me from a major whack. In retrospect, I tended to take my whacks less seriously, because the wheels 'saved' me from the embarrasment.
Don't you think that we've got a similar problem with the Rooney Link?
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
The Rooney Links does such a SUPERB JOB of very clearly providing protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for this form of towing that people don't take their Cone of Safety skills seriously. They think...
If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
...if they fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), their Rooney Link will break before they can get into too much trouble.
It's a no brainer that all Industry Standard "release" "systems" totally suck because the focal point of their safe towing system provides such excellent lockout protection. It's a pretty good bet that damn near all the pilots totally suck for the same reason.
And allow me - on behalf of the hang gliding community - to express our deep appreciation for you having reported the incident at the time in as much detail as you could muster in order that we could all learn as much as possible and maximize our chances of keeping someone from getting seriously fucked up or killed down the road.
Two possibilities;
1. Weaklink held and "she would have had a nice flight"
Why wouldn't she have had a nice flight? She wasn't high because she was a bozo. She was high because...
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground. Since then, Lookout went through the trouble of "sizing" their carts to help avoid that. They even made a handy plywood gauge you could hold up to your keel and verify the AOA was good.
I got on the cart but noticed that the back was too high. I ignored it and off we went. Then the glider was stuck to the cart. I finally jiggled it off the cart, but zoomed right up and blew the weaklink.
...Davis was. So why would you expect her to keep on climbing until she was above the Cone of Safety - and thus vulnerable to a lockout?
2. In the process of "taking off like a rocket" she got into a lockout and she would have been seriously injured or died.
- She wasn't going up in a thermal blast. She went up in SMOOTH AIR because she'd been stuck on the cart.
- And we know the air was smooth because, if it weren't you - and Keith - would've said something about it.
- And - as much as Rooney would have everybody believe otherwise - although she was fast when she came off the cart:
-- she wasn't THAT MUCH faster than a normal takeoff
-- when her Rooney Link blew she was flying at EXACTLY the same speed she'd have normally had at that point because the tug was flying at EXACTLY the same speed it would have normally had at that point
- I haven't heard either Keith or you comment that she got particularly high before her Rooney Link blew.
- So why would she be at any more risk of locking out than anybody else would be at that point?
- If she HAD locked out at that point, just how much good do you think...
- ANYBODY aerotow launching into thermal conditions at any time can get into a lockout and get seriously injured or killed - just like anybody launching off the Lookout ramp into thermal conditions at any time can get into a lockout and get seriously injured or killed. And:
-- a weak link will be pretty much equally useless for mitigating the situation in both environments
-- the only really safe way to handle either environment is to use leaves, grass, and/or streamers to avoid the nasty cycles
-- on the cart the other two things that will significantly increase your odds of survival are a two point bridle and release that doesn't stink on ice
I don't think she was hurt at all if I remember correctly.
- You DON'T. Keith said:
Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC
Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.
and:
-- that's not something that one gets that wrong
-- nobody's contradicted him
-- the crash victim ain't around no more 'cause if she were people would've noted it and we'd have heard her version of the crash and subsequent medical adventures
- Who gives a flying fuck? Got killed, busted up, or pulled out at two feet...
...and came out smelling like a rose? DocSoc, for the purpose of the exercise, broke his fuckin' neck - obviously and solely because his fuckin' Rooney Link very clearly provided protection from the high angle of attack.
- And you ignore these physically inconsequential incidents and don't treat them as fatalities you can expect to get fatalities every now and then.
I just love folks who think they can fly their way out of a lockout, particularly at less than 10' off the ground.
- NAME ONE - motherfucker. Anybody who aerotows and isn't scared shitless of low level lockouts is either a total fucking moron or a ninety percent fucking moron who's been brainwashed by his friendly neighborhood flight park to believe that his Rooney Link is gonna save him...
For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.
...when he gets too far out of whack. That's the reason we have these massive discussions on inaccessible releases, Rooney Links, and lockouts that Davis always locks down when progress is being made.
...they won't need two point bridles when the shit hits the fan
- release actuators on downtubes and shoulder mounts are...
...within easy reach
None of my comments have anything to do with the skill of the pilot in this incident.
- That's OK...
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC
Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.
Rooney's got this angle covered:
- weaklink *saved* her ass
- still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her
- lack of towing ability
- sat on the cart and took to the air at Mach 5
- insists on doing it
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
If you had been properly trained on how to tow, you would know that it shouldn't be a big deal when a weak link breaks, even just after coming off the cart, if you are doing things right.
...wasn't trained properly / failed to pull in / just froze defense down the toilet.
Whenever a glider crashes after a Rooney Link pop it can only be because the pilot was incompetent. We've already got her insisting on just sitting on the cart and doing a Mach 5 takeoff so we don't need to have her in shock and paralyzed and just leaving the bar out in front of her nose.
Lot's of other things going on.
Yeah. There WERE. So why don't you tell Rooney to go fuck himself when he denigrates her as some clueless asshole who got what she deserved?
But to say she crashed because her weaklink broke makes no sense.
Yeah?
Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14
This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).
An eminently qualified tandem pilot reported a random incident that we all could learn from.
My response would be - "Thanks for letting us know that we have to be careful about how long our weaklinks are".
All the other crap you (ridgerodent) wrote is just noise.
An eminently qualified tandem pilot reported:
- a Rooney Link blowing for no reason at maybe fifty feet
- her glider stalling quite dramatically almost instantly
- it being hard not to stall as a consequence of a Rooney Link pop
- a disconcerting dive towards the ground
But to say someone actually CRASHED because her Rooney Link broke makes no sense?
