I'd like to add if my weak link happens to break for no reason I land, get back on the cart and tow again. BFD!
And I think it's totally awesome the way you can predict that:
- on a dangerously roll unstable aircraft with inherently crappy control response
- at the most critical and dangerous phase of the flight in the dangerously unstable air we require to stay up after the tow's complete
you can be one hundred percent positive that you're gonna have the:
- airspeed
- level wings
- direction relative to any wind
- surface
you need to come out smelling like a rose and no worse off than you would be continuing to climb at that moment.
What kind of total fuckin' asshole qualifies a total fuckin' asshole like you to hook up behind a tug? Or, for that matter, launch off a training hill?
Yes, it will take something else. But the approach you always slide into is not it.
How the fuck do you know, Brian? You sat around with your thumb up your ass while I was being attacked, silenced, and permanently exiled over half a decade ago and I haven't seen anybody else coming up with any approaches that have accomplished anything positive since.
I think Matthew pointed out what needed to be done. But if you write articles nobody will listen unless you write with some humility.
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).
We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
Oh god, I've been offensive to people that I hold in contempt.
How will I ever sleep at night?
Right.
- Anybody in this game who turns off a message due to insufficient humility being exhibited deserves whatever happens to him.
- Anybody who teaches aviation and is exhibiting humility either doesn't know what the hell he's talking about or being dishonest - as in "Well, I have this idea that a glider can go down like a brick as a result of a Rooney Link popping - but that's really just my opinion and I totally respect your point of view." Either way, dude, he can go fuck himself.
BTW, a highly experienced source who wishes to stay anonymous (call him "Deepfloat") because he doesn't want to get entangled in the name calling...
And will get his fuckin' balls cut off and shoved down his throat in a New York minute if he actually engages me.
...(we're all tired of it)...
- Who's "WE", Brian? Did you get appointed by everyone following the thread besides Yours Truly to speak on his behalf? Fuck you.
- Tough shit. You let the issue drop without resolution and there have been some devastating crashes and a death directly because of Rooney Link blows, a lot of other serious crashes and several deaths because the sport continues to use the Rooney Link as justification for putting people up on inoperable releases, and the sport's another half a decade's worth down the sewer. (And I really appreciate the way you jumped all over that shit that Trisa published in the magazine a year ago.)
I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?
Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD
I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
...a very interesting point.
Deepfloat says the reason 3 strings are used on the tug end instead of 4 is because experience has shown that a 4 strand breaking strength causes damage to equipment, the tug being a far more complex mechanism than a glider.
- FAR more complex. Really hard for me to comprehend the kind of mind that could comprehend the effects of loading on a Dragonfly tail. (Idiot.)
- Yeah Brian... The dumb fucks:
- pulled a bunch of moronic shit out of their asses to determine the weak link every solo glider on the planet would be using...
Quest Air
A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider.
...for a weak link for the next couple of decades
- figured twice that would be just right for every tandem glider on the planet and...
For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
...that doubling the loop would double the strength
- didn't bother with a front end weak link that would prevent the tandem with its perfect weak link from ending up with the rope half the time
- designed the tow mast to break away at the same load as the front end weak link...
USAFlytec - 2001/07/14
Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen
The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.
...which was the same strength as the back end weak link
- then found through a decade and a half's worth of EXPERIENCE that the tow mast was folding at about the same loading as the front and back end weak links
- So whenever you've got a choice between doing the engineering to do the job right and...
Matt Taber - 2009/07/12
The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 130-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link. We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with.
Davis... Yup.
I'm not bothered by straight pin releases.
I do think the strong link guys gravitate to them due to the higher release tensions that strong links can encounter.
I don't like homade stuff.
...solving the problem by going with a flimsier loop of fishing line you just can't go wrong by using a flimsier loop of fishing line. I mean, name ONE PROBLEM that's cropped up in hang glider towing since the spring of 1981...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC
Thought I already answered that one... instead of quoting myself (have a look back if you don't believe me), I'll just reiterate it.
I don't advocate anything.
I use what we use at the flight parks. It's time tested and proven... and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit I've seen out there.
130lb greenspot (greenspun?) cortland fishing line.
In stock at Quest, Highland, Eastern Shore, Kitty Hawk Kites, Florida Ridge, and I'm pretty sure Wallaby, Lookout and Morningside.
Not sure what Tracy up at Cloud Nine uses, but I'll put bets on the same.
Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)
...that HASN'T been solved by using a flimsier loop of fishing line. (Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.)
- Hey Brian... Let's say the dumb fucks HADN'T designed the tow mast to fold at four strands. Why wouldn't they have engineered / designed / built / tested the fucking Dragonfly to do the fucking job it's supposed to?
Using a 4 strand weaklink on a glider as advocated for heavier pilots effectively means you don't have a weaklink and will end up with the rope.
NO SHIT. As will EVERY tandem glider. And, Brian, at the time of your writing that means that EVERY tandem flight pulled by a Dragonfly is conducted in flagrant and deliberate violation of FAA aerotowing regulations - and that's been the case for the prior three years plus.
The other point Deepfloat makes is that while doing lockout training, the weaklink often will break during the maneuver...
- No shit. Fly the glider away from the tug at altitude and the weak link breaks. Who'da thunk.
- Yeah. Weak links are SUPER at popping gliders off...
...at altitudes at which nothing matters. That's a WONDERFUL model to use to con students into believing that a weak link will be of some use to them at altitudes at which shit REALLY matters.
...despite any physical analysis that says typical tow forces will not be exceeded.
- WHAT physical "ANALYSIS" says that typical tow forces won't be exceeded by planes flying in different directions?
- So which one of those stupid pigfuckers has:
-- measured "TYPICAL" tow forces?
-- bench tested the loops of fishing line they've declared global standards?
- Is a "TYPICAL" tow force similar to...
Dennis Pagen - 1997/01
There is no known reason for the failure of the tug release since it was tested before and after the accident with a realistic tow force.
...the "REALISTIC" tow force that locked up Dave Farkas's release shortly before Bill Bennett and Mike Del Signore slammed into the runway?
- Yeah Brian. The weak link often will break during the maneuver, despite any physical analysis that says typical tow forces will not be exceeded. A 350 pound weak link blows at 350 pounds. Write that down. It'll be on the final.
Having done many physical analysis myself...
Then you should know how to spell the plural of "analysis".
...I know how frail the chain of assumptions can be.
Yeah. Reminds me a lot of:
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
Deepfloat's conclusion is that making weaklinks too much stronger may result in cases where the link could have saved a pilot from a lockout because things happen so fast.
- Especially with all the bent pin crap Ridgely sells as releases.
- Yeah Brian. And if we make sidewires too strong that may result in cases where people who can't fly could get gliders up high enough to be able to hurt themselves.
- Like when Mike Haas went up behind Arlan Birkett at Hang Glide Chicago a little over three years ago on 2005/09/03 with an inaccessible...
Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
...Quallaby Release and his Rooney Link didn't break soon enough to keep him from getting into deep shit and didn't hold long enough to give him any chance of flying back out of the shit.
In my particular field of research, the modelers always trust the experimental data, while the experimentalists are cautious with their own data but tend to put too much trust in the model results. This is because each group are honest scientists who know how easy it is to screw things up so are skeptical of their own results.
- This ain't meteorology and the equations are a lot shorter and can be understood by junior high school kids.
- And the only thing we REALLY need to understand is whether or not...
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
...the glider will break before the weak link does because that's the ONLY thing we can predict about the effects of tension on a tow.
Tad, you sow doubt because you think you are absolutely right.
- I AM - asshole.
- Who's doubting me, what are their "arguments", and what data or logic are they using to support what they're saying? We should all use one-size-fits-all Rooney Links that blow every fourth flight because:
-- it's what we've always used and has huge track record?
-- if there were something better everybody would be using it already?
-- it MIGHT save some bozo who can't fly and is using a piece of shit Ridgely Release?
-- popping off tow in ANY situation is - at the very worst - an INCONVENIENCE?
- If I'm wrong then SURELY:
-- with all the top notch aerotow training everybody's gotten at Ridgely and/or Manquin everybody should have the solid basis in theory to have no problem whatsoever tearing what I'm saying to shreds
-- people should be able to go to a definitive aviation text like the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden
-- the Ridgely and Manquin flight park operators - Adam Elchin, Sunny Venesky, Steve Wendt - would be in the conversation setting everybody straight with definitive explanations and protecting their students from my lunatic rantings
This is intellectually dishonest.
I didn't hear you weighing in on any of the pre or post Marzec Rooney Link wars on either the Jack or Davis Shows - and there's been NO discussion of Rooney Links amongst the Capitol club brown-nosers since I got eliminated. Get fucked.
You will be better served by trying to knock down your own house of cards. You give the idea lip service by challenging people to offer counter examples, then proceed to ignore them.
Yeah. I've got no interest in hearing from assholes like Janni who get and are allowed to get on carts with shit equipment and no fuckin' clues what they're doing or talking about and luck out. Just like I've got no interest in talking to some asshole who refuses to wear a seatbelt because he can cite an incident of some asshole getting thrown out of a convertible before it went over a cliff.
In view of Deepfloat's observations I would say that your scaled stronger weaklink ideas make sense up to an upper limit where the tug is put in jeopardy.
I got news for ya, Brian...
- Anything we put into the air is in jeopardy.
- A tug can stall and die with tension behind it limited to glider times:
-- two
-- one
-- zero
- I reduce the jeopardy to the fuckin' tug by making sure that I have the best quality release possible on my glider so there are people on BOTH ends of the string that can abort a bad situation instead of waiting around for some piece of fishing line to pop.
- None of the Dragonflies that have gone down on tow have gone down with anything more than a solo glider in optimal position and attitude at normal tension.
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land.
Actually, Deepfloat (Jim Rooney) said that during multiple lockout practices the weaklink broke before getting to the release. Too many to catalogue individually.
Then what's the point of lockout "practices", Brian? If they were doing any good wouldn't the weak link blow rate be ZERO?
- They put the fuckin' brake lever on the downtube at the least accessible place they can manage.
- We know from fatality reports...
Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
...and hundreds of accounts from people who were high enough to be able to get back to us that unless you have an actuator on the basetube or between your teeth you're very probably gonna be a passenger until the driver does your job for you or you're standing on your ear far enough for the Rooney Link to kick in.
And we know that low level towing lockouts are about as survivable as mountain launch ramp lockouts.
So what's the point - other than to give the victims of these training program dangerous false senses of security about:
- releases that:
-- stink on ice
-- give one no ability to abort an emergency situation
-- are statistically indistinguishable from weak links
- Rooney Link lockout protectors
Isn't this just the same kind of scam The Industry is running when they take people up for tandem brainwashing, pop their releases at two thousand feet in smooth air, tell them what a great jobs they did pulling the bar back, and sign them off as fully qualified to handle Rooney Links off the bottom of the legal range at any and all altitudes and in any and all circumstances?
BTW, a highly experienced source who wishes to stay anonymous (call him "Deepfloat") because he doesn't want to get entangled in the name calling (we're all tired of it), has a very interesting point to make.
- BTW, Brian, I don't give a flying fuck about anyone's level of EXPERIENCE in this game.
-- There's absolutely nothing of any importance whatsoever in it that can't be explained to and thoroughly understood by a junior high school kid.
-- The assholes in it with the most experience have the most experience saying, doing, flying, teaching things WRONG.
-- As the tasks are extremely repetitive and undemanding of intellectual qualities the assholes in it with the most experience are virtually always exceedingly dense.
- I note that:
-- we last hear from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney in his 2008/10/29 16:20:20 post
-- your last Deepfloat relay/reference is posted 2008/11/20 13:16:41
-- we resume hearing from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney 2008/11/20 22:25:38
- Yes, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is WAY too much of a gentleman to wanna get entangled in NAME CALLING - at least until...
Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!
I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.
Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.
...he's sucked enough dicks and consolidated enough power to get the protection he needs to be able to get away with ANYTHING.
Great to see you back in the discussion, Deepthro... I mean - JIM.
the tug's weaklink is three strand.
- Didn't used to be. Used to be FOUR.
- Yeah? WHY?
For clarity... A normal single loop weaklink...
Yeah? What's a normal glider weigh?
...would be considered two. A tandem double loop is considered four.
Would be CONSIDERED? Or would BE?
Is the problem that you guys have trouble counting that high? I notice you seem to have a lot of trouble with one and two point bridles.
In the tandem setup, the "weaklink" in the system is at the tug end, not the glider.
Oh REALLY? But I thought that...
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 22:28:30 UTC
Just keep in mind if you do, you need to be weaker than the tug's link... not equal to. You will need to talk it over with any tug pilot that you tow behind. Anything less is unethical. And just as you have the right to refuse a tow from any tugger, they have the right to refuse to tow you... for any reason what so ever.
...the glider's weak link needed to be weaker than the tug's link... not equal to. That anything less was unethical - and, under FAA aerotowing regulations, blatantly ILLEGAL (not to mention dangerous and unbelievably stupid).
Ya'll seem to be missing this.
How could we POSSIBLY be missing this? Wasn't it all covered in the totally excellent tandem instruction we all got at Ridgely? Isn't it explained in detail on their website? It doesn't really seem all that fucking complicated or anything that somebody would need to pull thousands of tows to understand.
Once you go beyond three strand... you're not using a weaklink. If the weaklink goes, you're getting the rope.
During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug.
...the tug's weak link was negated by a stronger glider weak link - that it detected what was on the back end and strengthened itself accordingly. Sorry, I've gotta go with Bobby on this one.
Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)
He's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.
Paul found this out the hard way in Texas.
Yeah, Jim. When some fucking douchebag thinks he can afford to:
- fly the glider in violent thermal conditions with one hand...
The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow.
...while fucking around with the VG cord with the other
- put an idiot Bailey Release on his shoulder...
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
...within easy reach
- get behind some dickhead with a three strand tow mast breakaway protector
he's probably gonna get the fuckin' rope.
Theory's wonderful and all, but reality is not forgiving.
THEORY is what REAL pilots engaging in REAL aviation use to understand, predict, and deal with reality.
Ask yourself... are you willing to bet your life on your theory?
Fuck no. I'd rather bet my life on the opinions of a shitload of brain dead tug drivers who keep assuring us that they know what they're doing because they have extremely long track records.
...we wouldn't be flying if it wasn't dangerous. That's just the sort of crap people wanna hear from their flight instructors.
He'll never listen to you...
Got that right, motherfucker. And now - close to five years later - Janni's another dime a dozen nonentity with nothing to contribute to any substantive discussions.
Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.
The reason for the vehemence of the response is they pile on to any AT accident, with no knowledge of the cause, and trot out the, if only he had a strong weaklink, nothing would have happened.
It's fine to want to work on better solutions to make us all safer by improving technology, it's ugly and inhuman to use the death of a really nice guy to advance your point... in case it wasn't obvious I agree with Bart and Jim, and no it's not a lack of english comprehension - he said there would have been a different outcome with a stronger weaklink.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC
Ever heard of "Confirmation Bias"?
Because you're a textbook example.
You were out looking for data to support your preconceived conclusion, rather than looking at the data and seeing what it tells you... which is why this is the first time we've heard from you and your gang.
Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.
...still alive and kicking in his hole in the ground orchestrating his gang's demolition of you, Davis, and Bobby and your bent pin, 130 pound Greenspot lockout protector bullshit.
Tad loves to speak of himself as a scientifically minded person.
Go fuck yourself. Nobody who understands and respects science loves to speak of himself as a scientifically minded person. We just understand and explain the science and...
It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.
...trails and errors pursued and rejected from this era of experimentation with different strengths of fishing line before you arrived? How come nobody ever seems to reference it and tell us all the horror stories about people who went up with 100 and 150 pound Greenspot.
It is thus that I ignore him.
- Then how do you know that I loves to speak of myself as a scientifically minded person?
- Yeah, it was thus that Zack Marzec ignored me too - and added a data point to the pool that everyone's bending over backwards to remove. And do please continue to ignore me. There's nothing like a dead tandem aerotow instructor to spark a productive conversation about equipment and potential areas of improvement.
DO try to limit the discussion of what you don't get a bit, Janni. My hard drive only has so much storage capacity.
...is why even bother using Tad's weak links?
Can you define what Tad's weak links are in terms of Gs and and tell us how they differ from other weak links some people are flying at Ridgely?
They don't break...
Weak links tend not to break when you have actual PILOTS on the ends of the string. That's the way it seems to work in sailplaning anyway.
...they yank the tug around...
And the two hundred plus pounds allowed by a Rooney Link is incapable of yanking the tug around enough to kill it?
...why not omit them and hook to the tow line directly?
You mean the way...
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/20 22:25:38 UTC
Something to bear in mind... the tug's weaklink is three strand.
For clarity... A normal single loop weaklink would be considered two. A tandem double loop is considered four.
In the tandem setup, the "weaklink" in the system is at the tug end, not the glider.
Ya'll seem to be missing this.
Once you go beyond three strand... you're not using a weaklink. If the weaklink goes, you're getting the rope.
Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney JUST TOLD YOU *ALL* TANDEMS operate?
If you don't get off tow in time...
In time to WHAT? Prevent the glider from:
- breaking? Anybody can do that.
- slamming in? If you lock out low the chances of ANYBODY getting off in time are pretty crappy.
...you're an idiot anyway...
You're an idiot if you go up on shit Industry Standard equipment that totally demolishes what margins you have.
...and the tug's weak link is going to safe the tug...
Safe the tug from WHAT? See above.
...and, hopefully, your glider.
Yeah. When you're depending on using a weak link as a release be sure not to skimp on the hope factor.
What's the point?
The points are to:
- keep the planes from breaking
- make sure the glider doesn't get left with the rope
- comply with FAA aerotow regulations - which takes care of both of the above
David Churchill - 2008/11/23 07:36:09 UTC
Chevy Chase, Maryland
Maybe the point of weak links is for people that aren't as smart as Tad...
Smart tends not to be of a whole lot of use to people on aerotow.
...and would be trying to "save" the tow when they should be releasing.
BULLSHIT.
- Nobody does that.
- If anybody DOES do that the chances of a light weak link measurably improving the situation are zilch or worse.
Also if it gets bad enough that you'd end up breaking the tug's connection you're probably be better off breaking the glider link so you don't have to deal with the tow cable.
As per FAA aerotowing regulations.
If we all learned when to release, and when not to...
- If we all haven't learned when to release and when not to how come we all have AT ratings?
- Do people who haven't learned when to turn onto final have a string to kick in and make that decision for them?
...maybe we could do away with weak links altogether.
We could. We could also do away with parachutes altogether in this part of the country and never notice a difference.
But it would be a lot stupider to do away with weak links because they don't weigh or cost anything and if we stop trying to use them as emergency releases we can:
- start using them for the only job they can do;
- use ratings in the mid to upper legal range; and
- see pops as frequently as we see sailplane weak link pops - which is NEVER.
But if we're gonna try to use weak links and parachutes for jobs for which they're not intended and can't do and have them going off at times undesired and uncommanded by the PILOT we WILL SEE a huge increase in crash rates and we'll be better off doing away with them altogether (and let Adam Elchin kill his sleazy ass blowing aerobatics).
OFF TOPIC: was there a definitive answer to Kirk's question?
Here's the answer to pretty much ANY question on weak links:
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 08:50:52 UTC
Oh if only life were so simple.
Yes. DO tell us all about LIFE, O Hallowed One.
How's it go?... that's right... Sh1t Happens.
That's what weaklinks are all about. There for that "OH SH1T" moment.
Close, Jim. But if you ask around a bit you'll find that the Rooney Link is virtually always the CAUSE of the "OH SHIT" moment - and quite commonly the predecessor to an inevitable crash.
You can ponder all you like the way this or that should happen and what you should do in such a moment. But the plain fact is that when it all goes to custard, things tend to happen really fast.
And that's when you can always count on your magic piece of fishing line to do the right thing at the right time.
Now I'm of the variety...
You're not of a variety, Jim. You're a distinct class all by yourself.
...that likes to stack the deck in my favor.
As the asshole on the FRONT end of the rope? I never had the slightest doubt.
I like to have things that might help me out when it's all going to hell.
And LOVE to:
- dictate how everyone else must stack his deck and have things that MIGHT help HIM out WHEN it's all going to hell - as it inevitably eventually will for everyone who aerotows. And low enough to matter and high enough for a Rooney Link to be able to make any difference. Let's use Marc Fink's figure of 250 feet.
- ignore/discount/deny that things that might help someone in one set of circumstances WILL kill him in another.
-- Like lighting a match might help one avoid stepping on a rattlesnake in the woods at night but probably wouldn't be the best way to detect a gas leak in a blacked out basement.
-- So if you've got a set of matches that ignite themselves at random and you're not sure what kind of hazardous situation you'll be dealing with you're probably better off without the matches in the long run - especially when you look at the average prognosis for someone exposed to or even bitten by a rattlesnake and compare it to the average prognosis of someone who's touched off a gas explosion in a basement.
-- But if you've got matches that only light when you want them to then go ahead and keep them in your pocket. You never know when you might need a little extra light to help you avoid stepping on a rattlesnake.
I most certainly do not want things that don't help involved.
Unless they're Industry Standard - levers velcroed to downtubes, barrels on shoulders, bent pins, crap bridles, pro tow connections, fuzzy loops of fishing line, stupid pigfuckers on the front end of the string who think they can fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope...
I don't need to rely on these things to appreciate that they're there.
I don't STACK DECKS because I'm vehemently opposed to the concept that aviation should be a dice roll. I eliminate and minimize failure modes and incorporate equipment, engineering, options options that I CAN trust my life too.
I:
- use:
-- a:
--- launch dolly
--- wrap:
--- resistant two point bridle with a thimble in its bottom splice
--- proof secondary bridle
-- bulletproof primary and secondary releases which allow me to keep both hands on the basetube at all times
- have secondary releases on BOTH shoulders
- use a wrap proof:
-- primary weak link in the middle of the legal/safety range
-- secondary weak link twenty percent over the primary
- won't fly behind:
-- a Dragonfly with a tow mast breakaway that will fold up before my weak link blows
-- some stupid pigfucker who's stated that he can fix whatever's going on back there by giving me the rope
-- any stupid pigfucker who's trained or qualified or failed to report the aforementioned stupid pigfucker
Now maybe YOU could itemize a few of the things YOU use to stack your deck. And please omit mention of your magic loop of fishing line - we've already heard from you everything we need to on that particular issue.
BTW, all this talk about "the only reason for a weaklink is to protect the glider" stuff is absolute piss.
Yeah. And our former Towing Committee Chairman and your close friend Steve Kroop...
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
...is an absolute pisser.
Sorry, that's -a- reason for weaklink. This notion that it's the only reason is nothing short of dangerous.
But it's so convenient. If we started listing all the amazing things Rooney Links can accomplish for us we'd be into hundreds of pages before we could start getting the discussion back under control.
A weaklink's purpose is to improve your safety.
By overriding the decisions of the two pilots involved in the operation, negating the flight plan, instantly and irreversibly chopping power from max to zero, dumping the glider into whatever air it was dealing with at whatever altitude and pitch and bank attitudes it was experiencing (most probably low, high, and rolled respectively), and forcing a landing or crash in whatever air awaits it at the surface. Is that a GREAT safety device or WHAT!!! Name something else that even comes CLOSE!
Plane and simple.
Yep. Plane and simple. As determined by trail and error.
The rest is how it does it.
By...
Donnell Hewett - 1981/10
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation."
...breaking at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation - obviously.
Not having the glider fold up does help your odds of survival.
And your Rooney Link does an ABSOLUTELY SUPERB job of that. The problem is that it really doesn't give a flying fuck what happens to your glider...
Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.
We have no agreement that a stronger weaklink would make it safer.
We have no agreement that a stronger weak link would make it safer. For an actual AGREEMENT we would hafta have the two most rabid advocates of the one-size-fits-all loop of 130 pound Greenspot on board - and that ain't never gonna happen.
...by letting go of the rope for you... whether you like it or not.
Lemme tell ya sumpin', pigfucker...
- I don't put shit on my glider that does shit I don't like.
- Sixteen years before you started showing up to save us from ourselves I had a card in my wallet that said I was better qualified to make a decision to stay on or get off tow than a piece of fishing line that some shithead in Florida one day pulled out of his ass because the thought one G was a good rule of thumb and this fishing line would put all solo gliders at one G.
I'm sure Tad will happily write a 20 page dissertation on everything I've said here.
And just wait until Zack Marzec buys it at the flight park Russell, Paul, Lauren, and Mark run - if you wanna REALLY see some pages. But, fear not, Davis will threaten to ban people and lock the discussions down before you get totally torn to shreds.
Have fun. I don't read posts from him.
GOOD. I'd really hate for you to hear anything that would cause that tiny twisted little brain of yours to kick in enough to diminish the chances of you slamming into a runway like your buddy Zack Marzec recently did.
If anyone else cares to discuss any of this, I'm happy to do so. You might have to pm me to get my attention as the weather here is often far more conducive to flying.
Yeah. Write Jim and get him to respond with hundreds of pages all about how he knows what he's doing because he does it all the time.
And then get him to tell you why he needs to keep explaining this very simple and obvious truth to all of us muppets:
- after we've all been trained and certified through the excellent programs at Ridgely, Manquin, Currituck, Lookout, Quest, Wallaby...
- when, after a nearly a decade of towing at the local parks, we should all have experienced this inevitable "OH SH1T" moment in which there was nothing between us and low level lockout death but our trusty Rooney Link at least once or twice apiece and posted our experiences to win over the two or three Infidels foolishly harboring doubts.
Fly safe guys.
Thanks Jim. But if a Tandem Aerotow Instructor can launch into very benign weather conditions with light winds and blue skies on a glider in good airworthy condition and just tumble from 150 feet to his death on the runway and after...
You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.
These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.
You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.
...over four and a half months of the best minds in the business spending every free waking moment focusing on this tragedy and still having no idea whatsoever as to ANY contributory issue then...
- How can we fly safe?
- Aren't we just rolling dice every time we go up?
- How can we be sure that when we think we're stacking the deck in our favor we aren't actually stacking the deck so as to guarantee our deaths in a particular set of circumstances?
...not. It CAN'T be. Pretty much anything that can be done in free flight can be done with a sub one G weak link:
- on tow
- as a consequence of:
-- being stuck on tow
-- losing the tow
But that's not the only consideration.
That's not even one of them.
A fixed strength (if logically justified) must have something to do with the tug.
Fuck the tug. The SOLE PURPOSE of the tug is to TOW GLIDERS. Either fix the goddam tug so it can do it's job legally and safely or get rid of it and replace it with something NOT "designed" by a total moron.
I think the glider end link should scale with pilot mass up to the point where the tug doesn't want to deal with being jerked around so much.
BULLSHIT. ANY glider with ANY weak link capable of getting it airborne can jerk the tug around enough to kill it. That's why you need a qualified pilot on at least the front end.
Another upper limit is the weak link on the tug.
Actually, Brian, the weak link DELIBERATELY BUILT INTO the tug.
If above a certain strength it begins breaking things on the tug, then the glider weak link must be weaker than this.
OR... Replace the crap that's breaking on the tug with something up to the fuckin' job it's supposed to be doing.
So two upper limits, one for the Tug, one for the glider. Scale the link strength with tow mass up to the glider link maximum, though where that is can be debated.
Shove it.
I don't believe like Tad that the FAA necessarily is the last word...
Yeah, Brian, although USHGA very effectively kept that information from us for close to eight years, the goddam useless FAA IS necessarily the last word - or would be if it gave a rat's ass about doing its fucking job.
...and his 1.4 G links may be too strong, especially for heavier pilots who will just have to deal with more weak link breaks.
Yeah Brian. And maybe Wills Wing should sell gliders with 175 pound max hook-in weights and we over-two-hundred-pounders should just hafta deal with more leading edge failures and parachute deployments.
But I think strengthening them somewhat for heavier pilots makes perfect sense.
But, hell, if we continue to put gliders up on Rooney Links which frequently blow when the glider's in position, level, and totally under control that's OK too. It's just a bit of inconvenience every now and then.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 19:42:44 UTC
Brian... yep... the issue of the tug's link is a big one and you've summed it up nicely.
Yep. Without the least hint of suggestion that the job be done RIGHT.
The tug uses 3 strand and so all this talk about using a stronger one...
Such that solos can tow safely and tandems can tow legally.
...is academic.
How convenient for all you front end pigfuckers.
You don't get to have one that's equal or stronger.
- Unless you're a tandem.
- And you can't have one STRONGER because that would make the tug's stronger.
- Why the fuck do you care if we have anything stronger? The more stuff we pull off your back end with us the more dangerous it gets for us and the safer it gets for you.
Here's the other thing missing from this conversation, and it's not a quick soundbite one.
Yep. Here we go - another dissertation about the length of your track record.
See we've got a system that has an extremely solid track record.
Implying that you were one of the key players in the development of this system that's so wonderfully thought out, engineered, and implemented - yet, inexplicably, has generated so much virtually nonstop raging controversy since the dawn of Dragonfly aerotowing.
It's a high bar and you can't improve one aspect at the expense of an other.
It's a LONG bar - not a high one.
(you don't get to lower my safety margins for any reason)
Fuck no. That's...
The Press - 2006/03/15
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
...your job. And your so good at it you can 95 percent kill yourself and have a little safety margin left over to distribute to your passenger.
The first one we've finally covered is the tug's link. Here's some others...
Greenspun get's used because it's manufactured.
From the Greenspun Manufacturing Company.
It's a common and standard material.
No question there. If the all the Flight Park Mafia operations collectively buy a hundred miles of it per season it's definitely gonna be a common and standard material.
You can get it at a fishing store and everyone knows what it is.
I am posting the report my husband, Paul Tjaden, just wrote about Zach Marzec's death at Quest. It is a great tragedy to lose someone so young and vital. We are sick about it, and our hearts go out to his friends, family and loved ones.
...but it's again one of those things that looks small...
I would respectfully disagree with you on that point, Jim.
Argue all you like about the validity of it's consistency in manufacturing (I know Tad will), but here's the rub... it has a testing system in place. And it far exceeds anything any non manufactured article could hope to achieve.
Yes - plus or minus one percent. So you know it's just perfect for all solo gliders - plus or minus forty percent.
I know when you hook up what you've got.
- 'Cause you always walk back and check before you start rolling.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.
...you don't. The accepted standards and practices changed so now you've gone from plus or minus one percent to plus 54 percent. So with the new accepted standard we should be seeing 54 times as many tug and glider crashes - right Keen-Intellect Jim?
It's assumed that you know what it is, so what?
Yeah. Let's start assuming people in hang gliding know stuff.
I want to know. Why? Cuz I'm on the other end of the damn rope! You don't get to make decisions about MY safety. You don't get to make decisions about how far I'm taking you into harms way. It's just not your call.
With greenspun, I know what you've got.
And thus (even though you're too fucking stupid to know that this marvelous common, easily identified, standard material that you've been forcing down everyone's throat for years is GreenSPOT) you can predict with plus or minus one percent accuracy:
- at what point in a lockout a glider will blow tow
- what maximum roll and pitch attitudes will be achievable
- how for outside of the Cone of Safety a glider can stray
- the required recovery altitudes for lockouts and stalls
We don't have to have a conversation about if I'm willing to tow you or not.
Fuck no. We don't care if:
- the glider's a Falcon 3 145, Sport 2 175, or T2C 154
- we hook in at 120 or 320 pounds
- we're a Hang 2.1 or 5.9
- the bridle's:
-- a one or two point
-- double spliced throughout its length or a skinny stitched end piece of shit from Davis
- the:
-- release:
--- actuator is on the downtube or basetube or between the teeth
--- pins are straight or bent
-- primary weak link is a 130 pound Pre-Tied or 260 pound Wrap-and-Tie job
- a secondary weak link is properly installed or the pilot's feeling lucky
- we have pneumatic wheels or perfected flare timing
- the:
-- reflex bridle or sprogs are safely adjusted
-- sidewires are solid or kinked
-- wind is smooth at eight straight down the runway or gusting from the side up to twenty
-- dolly tires are fully inflated or flat as pancakes
-- previous launch went off fine or got dumped back on the dolly by the Rooney Link for a broken leg
-- tug weak link is capable of surviving another solo launch
Just as long as you've got the Accepted Standard fishing line lockout protector you are GOOD TO GO.
If you roll up with something else, that conversation happens. I might decide that I'm willing to tow you, but that conversation happens. You are not the only one involved here.
Get fucked. Anybody stupid enough to roll up behind you or any of the Ridgely, Manquin, Quest, Wallaby, Florida Ridge, Cowboy Up shitheads deserves anything and everything that happens to him.
So if you want to use something that "scales with weight", you need to find a common and quality controlled manufactured material that displays what it is.
Yeah. Like the greenspun says 130 pounds. And two strands of 130 gives 260. So we all know what it is.
Why?
You're asking a tow pilot to pull you.
You're asking someone else to join you in a dangerous environment.
Not me, dickhead. I spent too many years compromising my safety with incompetent serial killing douchebags. Never again.
You don't get to make decisions for me.
Nah. The only person who gets to make decisions for you is your loop of Industry Standard fishing line. And I can't begin to tell you how happy I'd be if - the next time you pro tow into a monster thermal shortly after launch - it made the same decision for you that it did for your buddy.
Gee Tad, Jim is just making sure nobody is going to rip off the tug's tail above Highland...
Maybe Jim could get Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey to not design the tug's tail to be ripped off above Highland at the same tension as the double loop of Greenspot he selected.
...they are kind of expensive, you know.
Expensive JUNK.
Brian, I don't know why you feel us bigger guys need to beef things up. Talked to Glen, he gave me permission to drop his name. He hooks to the tow line at an impressive 350 lb. He had a total of 1(!) unexpected weak link break out of all his tows.
Wow Janni! That's EXACTLY the SAME number of unexpected weak link breaks that Zack Marzec had at Quest on 2013/02/02 using the EXACT SAME standard aerotow weak link. What a coincidence! How'd Glen's go?
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.
...he probably wasn't all that surprised - just maybe a bit disappointed.
He knows nothing of this discussion...
ANOTHER amazing coincidence! Zack didn't pay any attention to any of these discussions EITHER!
...so I asked him how he felt about using a stronger weak link. His answer was a straight "NO".
- Lemme take a wild guess as to where his release actuator was... Starboard downtube?
- What:
-- was his answer when you asked him about using a straight rather than bent pin?
-- makes you think I give a flying fuck about the clueless opinions of some brain dead glider asshole who doesn't participate in or even read discussions on critical issues and just goes along with whatever flight park asshose is spoon feeding him?
Both Glen and I veto you on beefing our weak links up based on our good and safe experience with greenspot.
Good. There's NOTHING I enjoy more than watching videos of and reading reports on assholes who fly weak links 0.15 Gs under legal and 0.85 Gs under safe.
Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/11/24 03:35:02 UTC
Janni;
I'm not 100% sure I can speak for all us lighter pilots, but I suspect if anyone asked us to use a weaker link for safety's sake, we'd raise an equal or bigger stink.
Glen's experience of rarely breaking a link seems to jibe with the idea (garnered from my old K2 versus Falcon) that if you are on an easier glider you just ain't likely to break a link, and it's more important than mass.
Unless the shit hits the fan at the right time, Brian. Then all bets are off.
Whatever. I've grown weary of this whole thing.
Me too, Brian. I really wish fuckin' Donnell Hewett had been involved in a different hobby thirty-five years ago and hang glider towing had gotten off the ground with somebody who WASN'T a total wack job.
Tow with what the tug pilot is willing to let you get away with if it makes you comfortable.
Yeah, we DEFINITELY wouldn't want the tug driver any more discomforted by a glider standing on it's tail half a second before the Rooney Link pop than Mark was, would we?
Fuck you.
- I PAID for those goddam tugs and drivers and I wanted to be towed SAFELY.
- With the fuckin' tow mast breakaway I CAN'T be towed safely - or comfortably.
All we've done is put some ideas out there.
IDEAS which were supposed to have been ENFORCED by FAA aerotowing regulations.
Tad - please stop acting like everyone has to conform to your version of absolute truth.
My version of absolute truth is 32 feet per second squared. And everyone DOES hafta conform to it - motherfucker.
The tug pilot has to feel comfortable, and if he insists you have to fly with a magic rabbit foot you better go out and get yourself one.
Fuck the tug pilot. He's insisting that I fly with junk that YOU'VE HAD LOCK UP IN FLIGHT and I'VE HAD DUMP ME for no reason.
And yes, since the tug's ass is on the line he's got every right to veto who he tows.
Fuck you. He has no legal right whatsoever to pull tandems - and he's riding the margins on heavy solos.
May eventually get fired if exercised too often, but that's his own business and right. 'Inalienable right' and 'physically correct' need not be correlated.
Get fucked.
Black folks in a bad neighborhood don't like that they can't get a cab at 3 am, but nobody's gonna write a law saying the cabs have no right of refusal.
I rather suspect that it IS illegal for a cabbie to do that.
Safety always takes precedence over provision of service, and individuals have every right to decide what personal steps they take to keep themselves safe.
Fuck you.
You can do your best to convince them they are wrong, but it's ultimately their own perception that counts.
Fuck you. We've had a third of a century of perception based aviation and it's the duty of people WITH functional brains to stomp it out.
Maybe if you accept this you'll stop going postal and take the more patient and productive route.
Yeah right, Brian. And look at all the progress you've helped with in the past five years:
- more hook-in checks
- fewer:
-- brake levers on downtubes
-- bent pin releases
- more:
-- enforcement of minimum weak link regulations
-- ethical behavior by USHGA officials
- better:
-- SOPs and implementation
-- accident reporting
- "higher" quality aerotowing articles in the magazine
- more open, intelligent, and productive discussions on the forums
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Yeah douchebag? What very little percentage of your miserable existence isn't based on lies is based on assumptions. But I guess it would be beyond the capacity of your single digit IQ to follow along with and address what's ACTUALLY BEING SAID.
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"...
I really think we do.
I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
Why would you figure that? It wasn't covered in our training and it's not in the SOPs or in any FAA regulations.
It's quite simple.
Most of the stuff you guys pull out of your ass is. It only gets complicated when you start forgetting that many of your previous lies are incompatible with your more current ones.
The tug is a certified aircraft...
Only because the fuckin' goddam useless FAA never bothered to check it for compliance with aerotowing regulations.
...the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle.
Why don't you stick to the gas guzzlers - which are the aircraft of your choice - and stop telling us hang glider pilots all about hang gliders and how...
So... if it's *only* purpose is to prevent your glider from breaking apart... which is complete and utter bullshit... but if that was it's only purpose... why then do we have them at all?
Your glider will tear the rope apart before it breaks.
It will tear the towmast off the tug before it breaks.
Your glider is capable of amazing feats of strength... it is in no danger of folding up on you.
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
...something of a universal problem.
You are a passenger.
Yeah Jim. We know ALL ABOUT...
The Press - 2006/03/15
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
...what tends to happen to passengers when YOU'RE attempting to act as Pilot In Command of stuff. Seems like you have major problems keeping yourself connected to the aircraft for which you're responsible REGARDLESS of the type of operation or environment in which you're operating.
And I think a pretty good legal case could be made that since, while you were dangling from the basetube, your "PASSENGER" was safely strapped into the "cockpit" and in good position to properly control the aircraft after the briefing she had just had that SHE was actually the Pilot In Command while you were - as a consequence of your gross/criminal negligence (no better than Steve Parson's or Jon Orders') - a PASSENGER (at best) and interfering with the control of the aircraft to the extent that it experienced a potentially lethal crash.
You have the same rights...
Oh. We have RIGHTS?
...and responsibilities as a skydiver.
Exactly what are the responsibilities of a skydiver while he's riding up in a plane for which you're the Pilot In Command? I'm guessing that not running up to the cockpit and hanging himself from the control yoke is something near the top of the list?
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
No. It's not a bitter pill to swallow at all. Because...
Mark Frutiger - as Pilot In Command of Zack Marzec's Moyes Xtralite - had the responsibility to ensure that it stayed under control and didn't lose power during the critical takeoff phase in thermal conditions. So by his negligence in not ensuring that the glider:
- was safely trimmed with a two point bridle; and
- would have a reliable uninterruptible source of thrust
he failed in both of those responsibilities and dumped his passenger/skydiver into freefall at way too high an angle of attack to assume status as Pilot In Command of the glider and way too low of an altitude to deploy his parachute.
And even if the Rooney Link managed to squeak into the legal range it wouldn't matter - it was obviously dangerously inadequate for the conditions the Pilot In Command...
The turbulance level was strong, among the strongest thermal activity I've felt leaving the field. I've encountered stronger mechanical mixing, but the vertical velocity this time was very strong.
...very well knew he could expect to encounter.
And Zack, as Mark's passenger/skydiver:
- could not be expected to understand ANYTHING about the dangers of one point bridles and marginal loops of fishing line in the power transmission system
- had the right to be taken to a safe altitude and not dumped by the Pilot In Command of the plane which was transporting him until he could either safely assume command of his glider or safely deploy his parachute
So keep making that argument - MOTHERFUCKER. Even though it's obvious nobody in Zack's family gives a rat's ass about doing anything to reduce the odds of you douchebags killing somebody else, someone might - at some point down the road - become inclined to transfer a little wealth from Mark's account and realize that the real estate at Quest could be the foundation for a really lucrative trailer park.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here...
No. I would NEVER think that, Jim. I've known for eleven years just how much contempt you have for anything that smacks of the least trace of THEORY.
I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue.
- OH! So the fact that you've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over a weak link issue is PROOF that the:
-- tug pilot is the Pilot In Command of the glider he's pulling
-- glider pilot is the tug pilot's passenger and has the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver
That's your PROOF.
And I guess that, likewise, your proof that a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a bridle end was determined to be the optimal aerotow weak link for all solo gliders through hundreds of thousands of flights worth of trail and error is that...
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Hughenden Airport, Queensland
Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
...99 percent of tug drivers refuse to tow anybody with anything else.
- So since:
-- it's the glider who pays for the tug, gas, and driver
-- the tug, gas, and driver wouldn't exist without the glider
-- the glider's the aircraft that stays up for maybe a hundred times longer than the tug and maybe goes up five or six times as high
isn't there a much better case to be made that the glider's the pilot in command and everything else is just disposable launch equipment - like the dolly back at the flight line or the external liquid fuel tank and solid rocket boosters on a shuttle launch?
That's always been my feeling about tugs anyway - and I strongly suspect that if you took a poll amongst comp pilots...
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up.
...you'd find that a not terribly uncommon sentiment.
- Who?
I didn't want to clash...
Oh, no, of course not. I couldn't IMAGINE you wanting to clash with anyone who runs an aerotow operation because...
Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!
I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.
... he strays outside the clearly defined boundaries of accepted standards.
...but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink.
- NO!!! A DOUBLED UP weak link?! Doesn't he know how dangerous that makes it for the tug unless he's on a tandem glider with some cute chick as a passenger?
For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break.
...he finds that there's little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break?
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
...when he couldn't get any gliders off the ground in light morning air?
-- equivalent to the Morningside two hundred pounder reserved only for people who've...
Just to back Davis up on this, cuz the person that let's the cat out of the bag always gets flack for it...
So we're clear as a bell on this.
Tad is a convicted paedophile.
...the stigma of him being a stronglinker would make his continued participation in the aerotowing community completely unendurable?
He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends.
- Good. If he's a friend of yours I hope he never again attempts to tow on anything heavier than a Rooney Link. And I hope that he tows only in excellent conditions. And since he's a pro it's a no brainer that he's using a pro tow bridle.
- Very interesting/telling that this motherfucker wasn't around in any of the Zack Marzec postmortem discussions to say to Rooney and the ten other assholes who refused to tow him, "Told ya so."
And lone gun crazy Rooney?
Oh, I never thought for a MOMENT that you'd be all out there by yourself on this one - or anything else in your entire safety-of-the-herd existence.
Ten other tow pilots...
Bobby Bailey, Russell Brown, Steve Kroop, Bo Hagewood, Mark Frutiger, Trisa Tilletti, Brad Gryder, Bart Weghorst, Paul Voight, Mark Knight?
...turned him down that day for the same reason.
Uncompromising dedication to the issue of the safety of their passengers and potential skydivers. So how many of these stupid pigfuckers weighed in for any of the discussions on the 2013/02/02 freak accident at Quest?
No, you need to have special qualifications described nowhere in the SOPs and known only to the high priesthood that controls these matters to make shit up.
I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.
But you "get to" whenever you want. Like if a double loop of 130 for solo becomes an accepted standard for competitions, operations, and/or the class of superior pilots who've been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who you get to make up the shit that you won't tow them.
Or you get to make up shit that, while different pilots are qualified to fly different models and sizes of gliders they're not qualified to fly...
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
...different weak links - even if a different weak link is the only way they can legally hook up behind a tug.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.
After, of course, you issued them a waiver to make shit up long enough for it to become an accepted standard.
So how come the Morningside Flight Park owner gets your leave to "make shit up" and the X Flight Park owner doesn't? Is it because X was locking out and killing a significantly higher percentage of its patrons with two hundred pound double loops of 130 than Morningside was with two hundred pound double loops of 200?
I notice you weren't screaming dire warnings from the highest spire in the kingdom when...
I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.
...Wallaby swapped out the double loop of 130 for the single loop of 200 to achieve the same strength - apparently without a significant increase in the lockout fatality rate - and I haven't heard you trying to make a case that the two hundred is only an accepted standard for solo.
I still won't tow people with doubled up weaklinks.
...they take five year old kids up with them. Then it's perfectly OK. In hang gliding weak links have nothing to do with flying weight or glider capacity - just the number of people hooked in.
The accepted standards and practices changed.
Without the hundreds of thousands of tows worth of trail and error which established the single loop of 130 pound Greenspot as the ideal weak link for all solo gliders for twenty years. What IS this world coming to?
