Using weak links that are able to hold the tug's entire permitted take-off weight is madness for one.
Go fuck yourself, Janni.
The max certified flying weight of the Dragonfly is 450 kilograms / 992 pounds. When the dildos rigging the Dragonfly were doing weak links they put a single loop of 130 on the solo glider they ASSUMED blew at 260 pounds.
Then they put a double loop on the tandem they ASSUMED blew at 520 pounds.
And:
- that's what Ridgely was telling everyone AT LEAST until I started testing after they had been up and running for half a dozen years and informed them otherwise.
- they weren't doing allowance for apex angle and they were ASSUMING that the solos were being limited to 520 and the tandems and Dragonflies were being limited to 1040.
- 1040 is 2.0 Gs for their North Wing tandem and 1.0 Gs for the Dragonfly. And 2.0 Gs was compliant under the USHGA SOPs and is legal under FAA aerotowing regulations.
- the tug is REQUIRED to be over the glider - as much as but no more than 25 percent.
- back in REAL aviation - sailplane manufacturer aerotow weak link specifications are all around 1.4 Gs.
- ALL aircraft are intended to be flown up to three Gs and damn near all aircraft are designed to take twice that.
- Ridgely Dragonflies are REGULARLY looped on the way down. And they pull about three Gs at the bottoms of the loops.
- where the fuck does some asshole like you you come off telling anybody that a one G tug weak link is "madness"?
- by the way, what was Ridgely telling YOU about the strengths of the various weak links during YOUR certification? Pretty fucking obviously NOTHING.
You can take those regulations, light and smoke them Tad.
That's OK, Janni. In hang gliding we've got plenty enough people lighting and smoking regulations as it is. And, I've gotta admit, from where I'm sitting now I'm finding the results of that endlessly entertaining.
It may not be your truth, but not seeing through the bull is clearly your failure.
HG Tandem Aerotow Operations
Date of Notice:
2006/03/15
To insure that all AT rated tandem pilots are notified, we are asking that the AT-rated tandem pilots sign on to the USHPA web site and fill out a form that states that they have read and understand the safety notice. Understand that we are not asking if you agree with the safety notice, but that you have read it and understand what it says. You will need to do this in order to have your tandem rating renewed.
...give the goddam fuckin' tandems as many passes as they want.
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
An eminently qualified tandem pilot reported a random incident that we all could learn from
My response would be - "Thanks for letting us know that we have to be careful about how long our weaklinks are".
...eminently qualified.
...on single surface gliders...
Bullshit, motherfucker. Once some halfway competent jerk has towed a hang glider three of four times he's gotten as good as he's ever gonna get because he's just as limited by control authority and other dictates of the physics of aerotowing as everybody else. If you don't believe me then take a look at this recent photo of what happens to a highly trained and competent Tandem Aerotow Instructor flying solo when he bumps up against the limitations of his within-easy-reach bullshit system:
...and an equally competent tug pilot.
- Yeah. EQUALLY competent.
- I didn't realize that the flight parks reserved their best tug pilots for tandems and had the hacks towing the solos.
- BULLSHIT. The tug pilot is some guy 250 feet away on the other end of a dangerously light string with his hand poised on a lever that he and/or some of his colleagues have used to kill people and there's usually not a goddam thing he can do to help the glider in a low level lockout. See the above photo and envision things going to hell twenty feet lower to get a feel for what I'm talking about.
Got nothing to do with, for example, me showing up with my Litespeed asking to be towed. Those two things are not on the same page, they are not even in the same book.
Given the equipment you're using and your understanding of aerotow theory nobody's got any fuckin' business towing you on your Litespeed - or anything else. And the people who "trained" you and signed you off deserve to have their balls cut off.
Or USHGA SOPs and safety advisories, FAA aerotowing regulations, aviation texts, the history of hang glider towing in general and hang glider aerotowing in particular, and questions that will of necessity require answers that will destroy him.
If you want my opinion on something, you'll have to post the question.
Anybody who admits that he's giving his opinion on something is also admitting that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/11/24 18:23:07 UTC
Jim - I quoted the whole thing. (yes that was the whole thing, short for Tad, which is what makes it worth looking at).
You want something short worth looking at, Brian?
Go fuck yourself.
Something else?
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
That's ALL that EVER needed to be said about weak links. But because of the scum that controls this sport and fuckin' wastes of space such as yourself the few people trying to fix things have gotta spend decades of time and write tens of thousands pages countering all the crap that serves as the foundation for this sport.
Profoundly, chronically, and irreversibly. And the rest of the time you're lying.
I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end.
But you're too fucking stupid to put ANYTHING on the OTHER END of the bridle so...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!
...the ENTIRE TUG is endangered.
Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened).
Yeah.
USAFlytec - 2001/07/14
Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen
The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.
Big surprise. But whether Bobby deliberately designed things to be ripped off or just was too incompetent to design a tug up to the task of safely towing solo hang gliders he's still a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.
When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath.
- Here, lemme make that sentence less pretentious for ya:
When you break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard.
- Bullshit. If the glider's straight back or close to it - which it almost always will be, particularly shortly after launch - your tail doesn't get yanked around anywhere.
- Even when the weak link is taken out of the equation 'cause you dumb fucks are too goddam stupid to configure things properly...
His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!
...and the towline becomes the weak link - probably at least a thousand pound weak link - it's unlikely that the tail gets yanked around.
AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.
Then find something else to do - shithead. Because ANY glider on ANY weak link strong enough to get it airborne is more than capable of killing an incompetent tug driver.
What I said was that by using a weaklink that's stronger than the tug's, you're effectively removing your weaklink.
Or, stated another way, due to Bobby's unfathomable stupidity and the shit design of his tug a moderately heavy solo glider is incapable of flying safely and legally with a weak link in the middle of the FAA safety/legal range.
Big difference.
Goddam right. I'd MUCH rather crash the tug.
Yes, this is what tandems do...
Flagrantly violate FAA aerotowing regulations and take yet another totally unnecessary chance on killing another Jeremiah Thompson every time they go up.
...because they must.
Because they're criminally negligent shits who refuse to do their fuckin' jobs safely and legally.
A tandem with a single weaklink doesn't even leave the ground (it's been tested).
- OH REALLY!!!
-- Rooney Link on a two point bridle - 226 pounds towline.
-- North Wing T2 max certified operating weight - 518 pounds
-- minimum legal towline tension - 414 pounds
-- shy of legal - 45 percent
- Good thing you tested it on a tandem. There was really no way to predict what was likely to happen just based on our experience with solos.
You on the other hand have a choice.
-a) fly with a heavier weak link than the tug's illegally and dangerously understrength one and take unnecessary chances on getting killed by a whipstall or trailing towline
-b) fly with a lighter weak link than the tug's and reduce your chances of being killed by a trailing towline at a cost of greatly increasing your chances of being killed by a whipstall
-c) go to the flight park Tad runs
By using a 4 strand weaklink, the tandem flies with the tug's weaklink as "the weaklink".
- In flagrant violation of FAA aerotowing regulations.
- 'Cause you dumb fucks couldn't ever think to put a tow mast breakaway protector on the front end and the same thing on the tandem to:
-- leave the rope with the tug half the time
-- minimize the trailing towline danger to the glider - and your passenger - the other half
Both the tug pilot and tandem pilot understand this and agree to it.
- Conspiracy to knowingly and deliberately violate FAA aerotowing regulations.
- I didn't hear you say that the tandem passenger or student understands and agrees to this.
- What about...
Chicago Sun-Times - 2005/10/06
Steve Patterson - Staff Reporter
Family's suit seeks answers in deadly hang-gliding crash
Four weeks after a horrific hang-gliding crash killed two people in LaSalle County, one victim's family is demanding answers.
Jeremiah Thompson was killed Sept. 3 while on a tandem hang glider, learning the hobby from Arlan Birkett, owner of Sheridan-based Hang Glide Chicago.
An airplane towed the hang glider into the air, with plans to reach 3,000 feet before the cable was released and their tandem hang glide began, an attorney said.
But two hundred feet into that ascent, the cable snapped, and the hang glider plummeted to the ground, smashing to pieces and instantly killing Thompson and Birkett.
On Wednesday, Thompson's family filed a negligence lawsuit against the company, demanding unspecified damages but also hoping to find out how the crash happened.
"They're two hundred feet in the air, and while normally they would glide to the ground, this hang glider nose-dived to the ground," attorney Matthew Rundio said. "We need to find out why that happened."
...the family of the passenger or student? Do THEY understand and agree to this risk? Sounds a lot to me that they don't.
- But we're all miserable muppets too stupid to understand anything and you're much too concerned with our safety to allow us to have a weak link so much as...
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 19:42:44 UTC
You don't get to have one that's equal or stronger.
...EQUAL to the dangerous crap on the front end.
I personally tow behind Zach more in a weekend than most (any?) of you tow in a year.
So you should have hundreds of accounts of tandem lockouts on takeoff and tug and glider coming out smelling like roses only because the three strander blew just in time for everybody to pull out at under twenty feet.
But, as any moron can plainly see from watching videos of lockouts at altitude, for every low level lockout that would be safely defused by a weak link there should be about ten very serious and fifty fatal crashes.
And the actual fact is that there has never been a dangerous low level lockout in the entire history of Ridgely's operation - tandem or solo - and ALL of the launch crashes have been solo and caused - directly or indirectly - by Rooney Links.
We both have a clear understanding of the added risk we incur.
- Sure ya do, Jim. You - AND ZACH WOODALL - understand that the heavier the weak link...
I'm not saying that you've claimed that a stronger weaklink allows for a greater AOA... I'm telling you that it does.
You know this.
I'll spell it out anyway...
Increases in AOA increase the load factor... push it beyond what the weaklink can stand and *POP*, you're off tow.
Increase the load factor that the weaklink can withstand and you increase the achievable AOA.
This ain't truck towing. There is no pressure limiting mechanism. Push out and you load the line. Push out hard and you'll break the weaklink... that's the whole idea.
You want to break off the towline? Push out... push out hard... it will break.
As others have pointed out, they've used this fact intentionally to get off tow. It works.
You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
...the higher the angle of attack you'll be able to achieve. (And the angle of attack you achieve the millisecond AFTER the weak link pops leaves you in a manageable situation and inconveniences you.)
- A few of us ACTUALLY understand the added risk. It's actually a negative added risk. It's a lot like a parachute. Below a couple of hundred feet it's pretty much totally useless and if DOES it goes off...
...it's a REAL good bet it'll have an effect pretty much the opposite of what you had in mind when you installed it.
A tandem with a four strand weaklink is not equivalent to a solo with a 4 strand btw.
Lessee...
- Wills Wing Sport 2 155 at max hook-in - 310 pounds. Double loop of 130 on a two point bridle - 348 pounds towline. 1.12 Gs.
- North Wing T2 tandem at min hook-in - 288 pounds. Double loop of 130 on a two point bridle - 348 pounds towline. 1.21 Gs.
Tandems are way heavier than even the fattest of the fatboys out there.
Wanna do the math for a max loaded Sport 2 175 - 390 pounds - motherfucker?
102 pounds heavier and 0.89 Gs - 0.32 Gs better protection from lockouts and high angles of attack than the tandem has.
The principle of removing the glider weaklink is the same, but the tug's weaklink is effectively stronger with a solo.
Bull fucking shit. You put Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden up instead of Mitch with the five year old kid she's gonna be lucky to make minimum. And we've just heard Janni blathering about his idiot friend Glen who "hooks to the towline at an impressive 350 pounds." So these aren't absurd stretches I'm making by any means.
Weren't you the one advocating "scaling" weaklinks?...
Not really. Brian's mostly just interested in getting along with as many people as possible. He really doesn't give a flying fuck about trying to do anything about you serial killing douchebags.
...this concept should make perfect sense to you then.
It'll be perfectly ACCEPTABLE to Brian - but if you're looking for people to whom it makes perfect sense I'd go with people like Lauren, Ryan Voight, Sam Kellner, Craig Hassan, Paul Hurless.
You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.
These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.
You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.
That covers it just fine. Nothing like a keen intellect to help everything together. Keep up the great work.
Very good. Somewhere around 3 strands of greenspot is the upper limit set by equipment tolerances.
So let's just accept that limitation from the good folk who've brought us the one-size-fits-all Rooney Link and do all of our arithmetic from that starting point without considering the ramifications for THE GLIDER. Because ever since the Dragonfly arrived on the scene a couple of decades ago the center of the hang gliding universe has been THE TUG.
Then the question becomes, does going significantly weaker help or hurt you?
I dunno, Brian. What do we typically see an aircraft doing after...
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
Name some other aircraft that are kept safe by a device that kicks in during situations in which it's being competently and safely controlled by the pilot and kills the engine.
Apparently highly skilled pilots...
Fuck highly skilled pilots. Highly competent pilots understand that superb skills are great for winning dune, XC, aerobatic, and spot landing competitions but they're pretty much totally fucking useless in nuts and bolts operations like launching, approaching, landing, and towing and when the shit hits the fan.
Everybody needs solid Hang 2.5 skills and judgment. When a glider starts locking out or standing on its tail being Dennis Pagen, Davis Straub, or Zack Marzec isn't any advantage whatsoever over being any solid Two picked at random.
A Two with a two point bridle, a two G weak link, both hands on the basetube at all times, and a release that doesn't stink on ice is barely gonna notice a situation that's gonna kill a Hang Five pro toad asshole in a couple of heartbeats.
...think so highly of their ability to prevent bad situations by either flying out of it or releasing that they are willing to risk not only themselves but a passenger.
How often do we hear about tandem weak links blowing?
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
How well is Lauren's weak link gonna work as a lockout protector at 150 feet - especially if she's packing a five year old instead of Dustin?
Maybe we should be spending the time we're murdering on these idiot fucking weak link discussions, use the fucking weak link to protect the fucking glider from overloading, adhere to FAA aerotow regulations instead of listening to flocks of shitheaded Dragonfly drivers, and do something about these pieces of shit releases.
Would these same skilled pilots prefer a stronger or weaker link in gnarly conditions?
Mitch Shipley (T2C 144) crashed at launch after a weak link break. He tried to stretch out the downwind leg and then drug a tip turning it around and took out his keel (at least).
Lighter.
Janni - I was trying to be funny. But maximum g force can only be set by testing, not saying ad hoc that a certain value is insane.
No they can't.
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
With our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity - meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
Jim's ripping apart equipment sounds like a test.
- The only TESTING that motherfucker has ever done in his entire crappy existence is to demonstrate how there's really nothing wrong with the bent pin releases that people have found welding themselves shut in flight and that you described as "SERIOUSLY FLAWED".
- Great. It only took fifteen years for these assholes to figure out that the crap equipment falls apart at the strength at which it was designed to fall apart and design some other piece of crap to keep it from doing what it was designed to do.
According to the owner's manual, the Dragonfly's max takeoff weight is 450 kilograms / 992 pounds (992.1 - but I'm not gonna bother with fuckin' decimal places ferchrisake).
Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/24 19:26:42 UTC
Jim, is a 700 lb. weak link for a guy like me madness or not, seriously?
- Who gives a flying fuck? It's madness for an asshole like you...
- You haven't given us your Litespeed size or your flying weight.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 19:38:03 UTC
Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/11/24 19:13:53 UTC
Would these same skilled pilots prefer a stronger or weaker link in gnarly conditions?
Weaker.
Yeah?
- Did these same skilled pilots all unanimously agree and appoint you as their spokesman? When you give an unqualified response like that to a question like that you are very obviously LYING.
you'll notice that there's NO weak link on the bridle. And it's very common knowledge that Lookout tandems don't use weak links. And they use the standard Dragonfly configuration that's always one bridle wrap away from removing weak link protection from the system entirely.
- Why is it that close to a million comp pilots insist on the same four strand weak link the tandems use...
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink).
...and a fair chunk want no weak link at all? Are there no comp pilots who are also tandem pilots?
- Why is Russell...
Russell Brown - 53035 - H4 - Rick Jacob - 1993/08/30
- AT PL ST TAT TFL TPL TST AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- AT ADMIN, AT SUP, PL ADMIN, ST ADMIN, TAND ADMIN, TAND INST, TUG PILOT
...Brown - Tandem Aerotow Instructor, Aerotow Administrator, Aerotow Supervisor, Tandem Administrator, Tug Pilot...
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
...tug owner, Quest owner - advising solo gliders in light morning air to use four stranders?
I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs).
...Wallaby uses for tandems and the same strength as the four stranders they used to use?
- Why is Davis, who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who...
I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs).
...more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often flying with the string used for weak links at Wallaby for tandem flights (orange string - two hundred pounds)?
I think you missed something very important... you seem to be under the impression that we choose to fly with 4strand.
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).
We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
...your grotesquely overinflated senses of your competence and importance? NO!!!
...that "it's ok" so screw it, we'll use a strong link. This is not the case. We do it because we have to.
See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.
Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
- You, the people who work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
- This stuff has been slowly refined over decades.
- You:
-- have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
-- know what you're doing.
- The obvious answers have already been explored - at length.
- We've got a proven system that works.
Is a 700lb weaklink madness?
Yes
For a Sport 2 175 a 780 pound weak link is legal - and was stated to be, without reservation, in the USHGA SOPs, Dr. Trisa Tilletti's article in the 2012/06 issue of the magazine, by unanimous agreement by the USHGA Towing Committee, and without the LEAST bit of protest from ANY:
- aerotow student
- solo muppet
- competition rockstar
- tandem aerotow instructor
- tug pilot
- flight park operator
So if you motherfuckers are so goddam concerned with everybody's safety...
Tow rating is $200, including tows and instruction.
Tandems are $125 each. So, it's actually closer to $450 for a tow rating in the NW. That's if you can somehow convince them to do a tandem as the park is not tandem friendly and makes the tow much more dangerous for everyone, especially the tug pilot.
The thing you have to realize is, adding the tandem requirement to the mix really increased the danger for everyone. For certain flight parks it was safer without this tandem requirement, not even counting the increased costs. Not every flight park is Quest with unlimited room to bail out in an emergency situation. The latest rules are really sad for our sport, but I suppose something is better than nothing.
...when the Central Committee decided the only way to properly train a brain was through tandem rides and...
Dave Scott - 2011/02/10 20:53:22 UTC
The situation you have with hang gliding is couple a Dragonfly with a 582 engine and you can tow fine with a single pilot and get a good climb rate, however with a Tandem you have a terrible climb rate. Now combine this terrible rate with an already small field and you have a situation that could lead to a death or serious injury of either party. All it takes is one engine out and you're done!
...they were scared shitless of losing power on takeoff. Pretty nasty stuff...
We glider folk don't know how good we have it flying an aircraft that always becomes manageable when IT has its power cut.
Larry Jorgensen - 2011/02/17 13:37:47 UTC
Air Adventures NW
Spanaway, Washington
It did not come from the FAA, it came from a USHPA Towing Committee made up of three large aerotow operations that do tandems for hire.
Whatever it was would've occurred to your average garden slug within fifteen minutes of hatching.
There seems to be the impression that I think that because I fly so much, that I "can handle more".
The Press - 2006/03/15
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
No. And I'll bet we can get pretty good confirmation of that from your victim - or at least we'd have been able to if it weren't for the terms of the rather generous settlement.
In fact, you have the impression that I'm so comfortable with this notion, that hell, I'll take someone else along.
Your notice of lifetime revocation of tandem certification should've been the first thing you saw when you came out of your coma.
Not at all.
I can handle less tandem.
How well can you handle a locking out tandem with your left hand while trying to get to the release lever with the other? Any better than...
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less)...
...your idiot buddy Lauren?
I have less safety devices tandem...
No shit...
Tad Eareckson - 2013/01/22 05:21:02 UTC
- The primary:
-- and "backup" releases are inaccessible pieces of shit with no load capacity.
-- bridle is a skinny piece of shit designed to wrap at the bridle. In lockout simulations it does so over half the time.
- The secondary bridle is a cheap overlength piece of shit with lotsa wrap potential.
- If the secondary bridle wraps the glider driver has no means of releasing it.
- The "backup" release isn't weak link protected. Consequently neither is the glider. And ditto on the tug.
- The primary weak link is heavier than the tug's.
- None of those Quest douchebags has a freaking clue as to the strengths of their weak links or even their purpose.
- They're:
-- telling students that installing weak links on both ends of bridles doubles the towline tension required to blow them
-- towing behind a tug that went out of control and killed a driver at Ridgely a year and a half ago and we still don't have a report
...dude. But since you only permit Industry Standard equipment with huge track records and other shit doesn't work, because if it did everybody would be using it, I guess there's no way to improve on that situation - EVER.
...in addition to a lesser weaklink setup (read stronger glider link)...
FUCK YOU.
- You're using your weak link as a lockout protector. That means we're looking at flying (versus max certified operating) weight.
-- A Rooney Link on a 165 pound Falcon 3 145 two point bridle puts it at 1.4 Gs.
-- A double loop on 518 pound North Wing T2 tandem puts it at 0.7 Gs - a tenth of a G safer than legal and twice as safe as the Falcon. If you're ever in a situation in which you can't or don't want to let go...
As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.
You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
...just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell.
-- And your bridle's gonna be under one and a half times as much tension as the Falcon's so your hook knife is gonna be one and a half times as effective.
- Name some aerotow crashes that weren't caused by weak link blows.
- Name some low level lockouts that were safely defused by weak links.
...the tandem parachute is slower to deploy (must be used higher)...
Whoa!!! I never thought of that. I can think of at least five of my tows in which I'd have been dead if my chute had required an extra twenty or thirty feet to pop. Maybe you should look into a ballistic job to give you a little more breathing room. Or at least get an inflatable life vest, fire extinguisher, or snake bite kit to even the score.
...and I have more weight to throw around (solo gliders are more easily maneuvered).
Which is another way of saying that tandems are a lot more stable.
I also have a passenger, and who knows if they're going to start grabbing sh*t?
I'm pretty sure...
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 19:42:44 UTC
I personally tow behind Zach more in a weekend than most (any?) of you tow in a year.
...you do. Because neither you nor any of your colleagues at the Ridgely Tandem Ride Factory has ever had that happen.
-- And if you DID have it happen you're covering it up because you don't want anybody - customers, newspapers, insurance companies, FAA - to think that what you're doing could be dangerous.
-- And if you're covering it up you're negligent and not the least bit really concerned with safety.
The deck is stacked higher against me tandem.
- Except that:
-- you have no launch dolly issues and complications
-- a solo's only got 67 percent of the number of hands it needs to fight a lockout and blow an Industry Standard release
-- a tandem's got 133 percent of the number of hands it needs to fight a lockout and blow an Industry Standard release
-- a student can help you with control authority
-- there are no pro toad tandems
-- bladewings aren't designed or known for the lightest possible roll response
-- you're always coming in prone with huge draggy wheels all over the place
- So, proportionally, we should be seeing tandems crashing a lot more than solos, right?
What I have is the understanding that I can't fly in the same crap that I could solo.... because my margins are lower.
- So then no fuckin' way would you have launched a tandem into the marginal conditions...
Weather conditions were very benign with light winds and blue skies and the glider was in good airworthy condition.
...that killed Zack Marzec at Quest on 2013/02/02, right?
- BULLSHIT.
-- NONE of these operations EVER raises a Solo Only flag when conditions get iffy.
-- Whenever one is flying in thermal conditions...
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
...all fuckin' bets are off.
- Hang gliders deliberately seek out the most violent thermal conditions in the world but those of us who:
-- are careful about what we're launching into
-- aren't pro toads
-- don't use:
--- shit for releases
--- Rooney Links as patches for shit releases
can deal with it.
I have a familiarity that allows me to know when to STOP FLYING...
- Wow. If only we muppets were gifted enough to get a feel for when a big glider should stop flying.
- You never had any business STARTING flying - let alone:
-- instructing
-- getting on the front end of a string
-- taking people up with you
-- appointing yourself as an equipment standards official
-- advising anyone on anything
...which is always WAY sooner than I would solo.
Bullshit.
That's what flying every day with the same people and equipment does for me.
If a light and a heavy pilot pull the same maneuver, they will pull the same number of g's. So a pilot that's twice as heavy will exert twice as much force doing the same thing. So the same link will mean the heavier pilot can't fly the same way as the lighter pilot. Either the lighter pilot is less well 'protected' by the weak link, or the heavier pilot is being shafted by having more weak link breaks while doing the same thing.
He's the tug pilot and tandem aerotow instructor - in fact...
Jim Rooney answered you. Try to find someone more qualified.
...one of the best of the best. So how come it's you presenting this to him rather than the other way around?
Yes, can't go too close to the tug's weak link strength.
Yes. Only tandem gliders - which Jim just told us he can't control as well and safely as we muppets can control our solos - are allowed to get too close to, equal, and exceed the tug's.
But staying below that, why should the pilots be treated differently?
So Jim can feel like something better than the parasitic little loser he is and fuck as many people over as he can for as long as we let him and his pigfucker buddies get away with it.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 21:46:28 UTC
Didn't we already cover this?
No, Jim, as long as two plus two equals whatever you feel like saying it is at the moment this is NEVER gonna be covered.
So long as you're under the tug's link strength, it's not about weight. (Note, under... not equal)
Fuck you.
Find a material that meets/exceeds greenspot in all aspects and you've got something.
Name me one piece of equipment from the entire history of aviation deliberately installed in a system by its pilot or a regulatory entity that's crashed as many planes, injured as many pilots, and ended as many flying careers as 130 pound Greenspot.
Hand made stuff doesn't cut it.
- How the fuck does some useless little pin bending shit like you who's never even tested - let alone designed and built anything in his entire miserable existence - know?
- I guess those Quallaby release pieces of crap of which you're so fond come off of an assembly line staffed entirely by precision robots.
- The Rooney Link - depending upon:
-- its length
-- how it's tied
-- bridle:
--- material
--- diameter
-- how many flights it's had
-- what it detects on the other end of the bridle
-- shock loading
-- flight park policy
-- the point the advocate is making
-- the competition standing of the advocate
-- whether:
--- the glider's in turbulence or a lockout
--- or not the:
---- advocate chooses to consider that the towline tension is split by a bridle
---- pilot has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
can blow at 50, 75 100, 130, 180, 200, 260, or 360 pounds. I get a value of 169 pounds plus or minus 213 percent. Tell me how that's not the most hand made piece of equipment in the history of aviation.
- The USHGA and FAA specified range is 0.8 to 2.0 Gs. That's 1.4 plus or minus 0.6 Gs. For a three hundred pound glider that's 420 plus or minus 180 pounds towline. That's a 360 pound range. Just how difficult a target is that to hit?
- Apparently it's really not all that important...
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!
I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.
So Janni, either you think my link is dangerously strong, or yours is inconveniently weak. Until some very experienced AT jock pulls me aside and tells me I should be worried about my safety, I'll say your link is inconveniently weak.
Some very experienced AT jock is the LAST person you wanna be listening to. It's the very experienced AT jocks who've chiseled the "system" we have into granite.
Unfortunately, we don't have a material with which to adjust it that every tow pilot will recognize and be comfortable with.
But we can tie it such that the knot is REALLY well hidden and double the breaking strength from 130 to 260 pounds. It's not the breaking strength that terrifies the tug jockeys - it's the thought of nonstandard material that has them waking up screaming on the wee hours of the morning.
The next step up is 3 strands, and that's not 100 lbs below the tug.
- Which, again, is only important for the lighter gliders with a Pilot In Command with one and a half times the control authority and no potential basetube grabbing lunatic aboard.
- The next step is to pro tow and get a fifteen percent towline tension boost due to the negligible apex angle. Or, for people of lesser abilities than Zack Marzec and would prefer a two point bridle, we can use a sixty foot primary bridle...
...and achieve the same effect.
Tad is making adjustable links, but the next step would be convincing everyone that they are as reliable as he says...
But...
- Then they'd hafta look at a summary of the winter's data I accumulated running load tests which showed them to be good for the same tolerances as the Tost sailplane weak links, used in a lot of European hang and paragliding operations, instead of using a loop of 130 pound Greenspot which:
- has a huge track record
- breaks at one G and however many pounds anybody at a flight park feels like saying it does
- will, if they fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), break before they can get into too much trouble
I heard a snap, and then just like the sound of a WWII plane just shut down hurdling to the ground, only the ball of fire was missing. The tug weak link broke off at 1000ft, in less than a second the glider was at 500ft.
...of the fucking goddam tug.
I guess that doesn't leave much room to maneuver anyway, does it?
Not enough for me to fly safely and legally. And nothing would make me happier than to see another one of you motherfuckers slam in too hard to ever get back up again.
Beef up the tug so it can take a stronger link?
When we've got a proven system that WORKS? Are you mad!
Moving into uncharted territory.
And that makes the participants TEST PILOTS. Possibilities:
- tug could stall and crash
- glider could:
-- stall and crash
-- lock out and crash
Best not go there.
No more little debbie cakes for me, gotta keep my g loading down.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 23:38:01
It's not "uncharted territory"... you're just not aware of what's been done.
The hundreds of thousands of trail and error flights which revealed other fishing line flavors, colors, weights, and knot configurations as being inadequate to safely get gliders aloft and prevent them from locking out, achieving high angles of attack, and endangering the tug.
Just as you weren't aware of the reason for 3 strand links on the tug.
The fifteen years of finding out that a tube designed to fold at four strands will fold at four strands.
The trouble with Tad's links is not convincing people.
The trouble with them is that the vile incompetent shits at Ridgely don't want people realizing what vile incompetent shits they are.
Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.
It's not going to be nice because it's an affront to ego... which goes over like a lead balloon, but again... too bad, it's the truth.
See, the "everyone's opinion is valid" stuff is for the birds.
No. We don't consider everyone's opinion on these topics.
You're late to the game. Very late.
We've been at this a long freaking time. You haven't.
All these "ideas" that people propose, we've already been through... a number of times.
Don't you think that the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF THAT?
We did.
A long time ago.
Not only have we thought this stuff through seven different ways to sunday, we've tested a bunch of this shit too. And some of it's the stuff that you haven't even gotten around to realizing yet.
It's not cuz we're somehow smarter... we're not.
It's cuz you're LATE!!!
We've just had tons more time at this.
So pardon me if I get a bit irritated at people telling me that I need to reconsider something from someone who's just now getting to something that we've been over a million freakin times already.
Have we explored everything?
No. Of course not.
BUT YOU"RE LATE!
Your ideas have already been hashed through.
This is why this is an affront to ego.
See, people don't like to hear that their special little idea has already been thrown out even before they bring it up.
But that's the gods honest truth.
This is what I'm talking about when I politely inform people that they're not going to be informing me about towing.
It's not that I think I'm "all that"... it's that I've spent more time discussing this shit with people that know what the hell they're talking about then you have time discussing anything about hang gliding at all.
You're late to the game.
Your special little idea's already been discussed... a long long time ago.
It's a testing problem. Just as a hand made glider would be a problem.
- Yeah, a hand made glider would use cardboard tubes for the airframe, packing paper for sail material, cotton clothesline for flying wires, bent nails from a construction site for bolts, and leather belts from Goodwill for hang straps. You really don't wanna go there. Get your glider from the Wills Wing where they pour bauxite, iron ore, and crude oil into one end of the factory and T2Cs come out on a conveyor belt from the other - in the cover bag and ready to be test flown.
Whew!! Tad... Thanks for showing us these letters/articles.
In Houston, we are well aware of the WW wire tank tang problem. The first pilot it happened to plowed into the road. Awhile in the hospital and he pretty much recovered - but he never flew again. He was a great guy and friend and an aspiring pilot lost from our ranks. WW poo-poo'ed the event and made no effort to change their nose wire connection to make it fail-safe. The second guy it happened to will never walk again - or have a decent life at all. If you ever met him, the image of the wheelchair would be burned into your brain. WW poo-poo'ed that one too.
In industry, safety incidents are evaluated and the equipment is re-engineered wherever possible to make it impossible to repeat the event. I was/am furious that Wills blew me off when I told them they needed a design change. But then, WW folks did not work in industry like I did and they did not see their latest victim in the wheelchair, so perhaps I judge them too harshly. DUH.
I never heard about the North Carolina incident and I never saw Jerry's letter - I am glad you brought us both of these. The NC incident does not surprise me. Given the WW design, the accident was a forgone conclusion. However, the Forburger letter is quite a shock. I have known Jerry since 1976 and watched him practice taking off from a moving truck before he came up with the winch. That he would make such a callous and idiotic remark about flying and towing WW is mind boggling. To say "buy WW, but don't tow it" when the whole world is towing is just nuts. How the inventor of the payout winch could say it...???
I don't blame WW for the first crash - I blame them for the second one... and the third...
If my choice between a sight unseen handmade glider from some guy and one from Wills Wing with nose wires that fall off at launch guess what my pick's gonna be - asshole.
You're probably also not aware that me and Paul had a pretty big argument over his Tad-o-link before he locked out in Texas. All these same arguments. Over and over. No one listens till they scare themselves...
The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow. I have done this before but this time the line wouldn't cleat properly and while I was fighting it, I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke giving me the rope. I recovered quickly from the wing over and flew back to the field to drop the line... I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
NO FUCKIN' *WAY* the stupid shit would've been locked out if he had been using a ROONEY LINK. When he was unable to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), it would've broken before...
All the flight parks that I am aware of are quite aware of this. They tell their pilots that the point of the weak link is save the glider from overload and that they should not rely on the weaklink to save them.
warning: one step away from moderation in CHGPA forums
Ya know what the scummiest piece of shit in all of hang gliding is, Mark? Goddam useless MODERATOR who respects everyone's OPINION and promotes civility and cohesiveness.
Tad,
I just reviewed some of the more recent content in the never-ending 'Weak link question' thread.
- Any comment on any of the SUBSTANCE? Just kidding.
- I wouldn't worry about it being never ending, Mark. You'll figure out some ways to get it - and all future discussions of standard aerotow weak links - ended permanently.
Your Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:51 pm post has veered into the frothing-at-the-mouth category.
Veered? I thought I was frothing at the mouth at you dumb fucks LONG before that.
You seem to know & acknowledge this yourself, since you your post includes:
P.P.S. Postal time again... Forgive me.
Yeah? So?
Sorry, but *no*, 'forgive me' does *NOT* cut it with me.
- Now where have I heard something like that before? Oh yeah:
Find a material that meets/exceeds greenspot in all aspects and you've got something.
Hand made stuff doesn't cut it.
- You seem to be operating under the delusion that you have ten percent of the substance necessary for me to give a flying fuck what does and doesn't cut it with you.
You are bringing this forum _down_ with your invective.
- I'm not. This weak link thread that you locked down after you "suspended" me for three months - has currently got 3034 hits down on the bottom of Page 79 where it's drifted.
- But if I were - GOOD. Any group that tolerates assholes like Rooney for more than a post or two deserves to be reduced to ashes.
You are making people turn away from the forums because of your ire and anger.
- I don't MAKE people turn away. People are free to participate or not read what I write. Rooney does BOTH.
- Is there some rule that I missed that excludes ire and/or anger?
- Tough shit.
You are thus reducing the effectiveness of what we hope that the forums can accomplish in our region.
Who the fuck is "WE", Mark?
- What you hope the shit forum can accomplish in OUR region is the precise opposite of what I hope the shit forum can accomplish in OUR region.
- My USHGA number's a lot lower than yours and...
Tad Eareckson - 32674 - H4 - 1991/12/17 - Santos Mendoza- AT FL PA VA AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
Mark Cavanaugh - 61291 - H3 - 1995/02/20 - Christy Huddle - AT AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
...my rating's higher - STILL.
I routinely have to defend your right to post in the forums...
You don't HAVE TO do jack shit.
...when other pilots...
There are no PILOTS on that forum. If there were they'd have torn Rooney's balls off. They'd have done to him there what, in alphabetical order, Deltaman, Freedomspyder, Mike Lake, Ridgerodent, Swift, and Zack C have been doing to him on The Davis Show.
...beg me to shut you down.
Tell them to move to Uganda and/or go fuck themselves.
And I am THIS CLOSE to finally agreeing with them.
Move to Uganda and/or go fuck yourself.
My plan is to moderate your posts : They won't appear until I've reviewed & approved them.
That was Peter Birren's plan too. Nice to see all you useless goddam shits thinking - and going down in history - alike.
Frothing-at-the-mouth posts will not be approved: I'll discard them, let you know, and then you'll have the opportunity to send another post, without the frothiness.
Go fuck yourself.
Your non-frothy posts *will* be approved, and forum users will see them at that point.
I don't do non-frothy posts when I'm dealing with assholes. They give the impression that I don't have total contempt for them and tend to be counterproductive.
The approval process will be at my convenience, probably no more than once per week.
Fuck you.
But.... I actually have to expend some effort to configure this moderation capability. That's the ONLY thing that is preventing me from doing it right now.
Yeah, I knew it wasn't anything involving principles or integrity.
So, effectively, you have one last opportunity: Can you CONVINCE ME...
Who the fuck do you think you are that I need to waste my time convincing you of anything?
...that you will tone down your ire...
I'll tone down my ire when the source of it has a stake driven through its heart.
...and argue your case for stronger weaklinks...
I'm not ARGUING *MY* CASE. I'm PRESENTING you brain dead douchebags with grade school arithmetic.
...in a more civil way?
If I can get someone to take care of the miserable little Ridgely Dragonfly cunt who's telling everyone that he's Pilot In Command of my airplane and refusing to tow me if I use a weak link all the way up in the legal range and get people who understand grade school arithmetic I can be totally civil. But that ain't gonna happen with any of you pigfuckers.
Make your case, otherwise the moderation plan will go into effect.
Take your moderation plan, the forum, the shitty little club, Rooney, Adam, Sunny, Zach, two Dragonfly tow masts, and three spools of 130 pound Greenspot and shove them up your ass.
Janni and I fly with the same standard weak link. I was just trying to make Janni's life as easy as mine...
I'd much rather have Janni as a data point. I'm really sick of assholes with such superior pull in abilities that they're positive they're never gonna be in a situation in which an abrupt increase in angle of attack will be anything more than a manageable inconvenience.
...but it's harder than I thought it would be.
And I would never have dreamt in a million years that once I pointed out the problem with a bent pin barrel release...
Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/25 02:42:35 UTC
Brian, I never said you were flying with a dangerously strong weak link.
Anybody flying a weak link heavy enough to get him off the ground is flying a dangerously strong weak link if he's in a lockout.
I never said I was inconvenienced by mine.
Neither was Zack Marzec until the afternoon of 2013/02/02.
I may break a few more than you do in a season's time, but they may also break sooner than yours when shit hits the fan.
And that will ALWAYS be a GOOD thing.
I believe that both you and Jim agree with me on that.
I think EVERYONE will agree with that. It's indisputable. A light weak link WILL...
...the rest of your approach to flying. If you break your fuckin' neck you will have achieved your holy grail.
Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/25 18:45:19 UTC
Brian, this discussion to me is only relevant for one scenario.
Right, Janni. Kinda like landing. The only scenario in which you could get fucked over is not being able to stop on your feet on a dime in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place. So you should never consider coming in any other way than with...
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...your hands hands at shoulder or ear height.
Big guys, the major target group of Tad's futile efforts, with greenspot weak links...
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.
...entering a high line tension lockout and not releasing.
- On a two point bridle - which is when the Rooney Link is seeing fifteen percent above half towline - you're gonna get 226 pounds coming through the towline.
- If you can keep the glider at safe roll attitude with 226 pounds pulling sideways on you and the glider you are:
...drop like a fuckin' brick for a while when a lockout is terminated - whether by a Rooney Link at 226 pounds or your Industry Standard release at 175 pounds.
- If you're thirty feet off the deck, rolled seventy degrees, and stalled - regardless of whether you were on tow a second or two ago or on a landing approach slow and got trashed - you're a fuckin' idiot if you expect to survive.
- A Rooney Link will do NOTHING for you in a low level lockout and WILL kill you...
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation."
... when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation.
- You're NOT adding a way to save yourself in a lockout - which is rare and easily preventable. You're adding a way to kill yourself when the glider's level, under good control, and, due to a gust, thermal, lead footed tug driver, or minor loss of control on your part, the glider's climbing hard in the direction you wanna go - which is a common and often unpreventable situation.
is a tandem aerotow instructor. And, yeah, he COULD be flying a little faster. But he's using a two point bridle and, aside from using the idiot fucking Rooney Link, he doesn't do MUCH wrong but DAMN NEAR eats it. Add a gust or a good thermal pop and he DOES eat it. The situation goes from everything fairly normal and under reasonably good control to life altering in a millisecond solely because of the fake lockout insurance.
I don't give a rat's ass about anything else that could and might and will likely never.
You're a fuckin' idiot and you were signed off by a total fucking idiot. I'm scared of lockouts on takeoff but I'm really wired to react/respond and it's the fuckin' Dragonfly weak link and driver that scare the crap out of me. If either one of those majorly defective pieces of equipment dumps me at the right time I won't be able to do any more of a goddam thing about it than Zack Marzec was.
At the onset of a lockout I've got airspeed and another plane that can help me out if it's not being driven by a total moron. At the onset of a Rooney Link induced stall I've got no airspeed, no tug, and no ability to fly until/unless the glider pulls out.
So, in that particular scenario, Brian or Jim, if you were in my shoes...
Glad you didn't ask me, Janni. I'd have told you I'm never gonna be in your shoes.
...would you want something that breaks at 0.8 G, 1+ G or 1.4+ G?
If you fall off a cliff onto bare granite do you want the cliff to be 80, 100, or 140 feet? You want it to be 80 feet but it's a stupid question because:
- the answer is highly unlikely to make any difference
- you can't EVER afford to be in one of those situations
- if you're a good climber with good equipment you can very easily prevent yourself from getting into one of those situations
If I get an answer to that question from either one of you I will gladly leave this discussion and wait for something new to debate you guys on.
You're not debating here, Janni. There IS NO debate. You're using a Rooney Link because that's what you were handed because it supposedly put you at one G and one G is supposedly a good rule of thumb. If you had been handed a 1.5 G weak link and told it was a good rule of thumb you'd be fighting tooth and nail to defend that position.
