Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 19:21:57 UTC

Brian,
While I appreciate your quest for the perfect weaklink...

The perfect weak link to do WHAT, Jim?

...didn't we cover this already? (Again?)

The reason "WE" continue to have to cover this is because "WE" are totally full o' shit and don't have a fuckin' CLUE what "WE" are talking about.

Are we to go down the road of debating the quality standards of greenspot again?

Nobody's DEBATING the quality standards of Greenspot. It's a totally excellent tournament fishing line. We're trying to explain what a weak link is - and more importantly, unfortunately, ISN'T.

Ok, for review, it doesn't matter.
Why?
Because you have nothing else.

We have TONS of other stuff - ALL of it better than the dangerous crap we get at the flight line. Our problem is that our flight park operators, tug drivers, and Dragonflies are all pieces o' shit.

Do I have to review why we don't tow handmade gliders?

Of course not. We can read that in the SOPS, Towing Aloft, and the FAA regulations. A handmade glider could be doing just fine one moment...



...and going down like a fuckin' brick...



...the next.

And look how well a MANUFACTURED glider holds up after being very clearly provided protection from an excessive angle of attack, tailslid, tumbled twice, and crashed back into the runway:



Pilot acts as a crush zone, unhook him and move him aside, pop in a new port outboard leading edge section, hook in a new pilot with a fresh Rooney Link to very clearly provide him protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for this form of towing, you're good to go.

It's stupid, dangerous, and illegal to tow handmade gliders - permanent rating revocation, five thousand dollar fine, minimum three years in federal prison for a first offense. But what I'd REALLY like to know is...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC

Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.

...why you're perfectly willing to tow incompetent pilots as long as they have Rooney Link lockout protectors. 'Cause I'm pretty sure I could do better with handmade gliders, homemade releases, and competent pilots with NO weak links than you seem to be able to do with handmade gliders from Moyes and Wills Wing, Industry Standard releases, and incompetent pilots with Rooney Links. Just how much worse do you think I could do than THIS:


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg

Listen we're all perfectly aware that greenspot is not laser calibrated to 130lbs.

I believe it is.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

They state that their 130 lb. line breaks within one pound of 130, which is 5 to 10 times more precise than a metal TOST weak link. Their least precise 180 lb. line breaks within four pounds of 180 lbs., which is still twice as precise as a metal TOST weak link.

It's bloody fishing line. Get over it.

WHAT?!?!?!

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

What material should be used for weaklinks?

From section 3.4 of the 1999 Hang Gliding Federation of Australia Towing Manual:

Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g. - i.e. the combined weight of pilot, harness and glider (dependent on pilot weight - usually approximately 90 to 100 kg for solo operations; or approximately 175 kg for tandem operations).

Each pilot should have his/her own weak link of appropriate strength.

It is recommended that a new weak link is used for every launch; or a fabric sheath is used to cover the weak link to protect it as it is dragged along the ground.

Testing weak links tied from "No 8" builders string line has shown that the type of knot used does not greatly affect the breaking strain of the weak link.

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

This isn't just BLOODY FISHING LINE. This is the ULTIMATE braided Dacron *TOLLING* LINE and WE *APPLAUD* Bobby Bailey's efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weak link material. And Bobby's...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

Thought I already answered that one... instead of quoting myself (have a look back if you don't believe me), I'll just reiterate it.

I don't advocate anything.
I use what we use at the flight parks. It's time tested and proven... and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit I've seen out there.

130lb greenspot (greenspun?) cortland fishing line.
In stock at Quest, Highland, Eastern Shore, Kitty Hawk Kites, Florida Ridge, and I'm pretty sure Wallaby, Lookout and Morningside.
Not sure what Tracy up at Cloud Nine uses, but I'll put bets on the same.

Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

...FAR smarter than you - he's a FUCKING GENIUS when it comes to this shit.

Are you flying below your perfect numbers as a heavy guy. Yes. Yes you are.

BULLSHIT.

- The 1999 Hang Gliding Federation of Australia Towing Manual states:

Each pilot should have his/her own weak link of appropriate strength.

and this is ENTIRELY consistent with Wills Wing's recommendation to:

http://www.willswing.com/articles/Article.asp?reqArticleName=AerotowRelease
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders

Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

...always use an APPROPRIATE weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

- Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 06:15:12 UTC

You may not know, but Davis is a friend of mine.
We have discussed this many times in person. We are not in disagreement.

If you can not see that we're in agreement, perhaps I can clear things up for you. Or Davis can.

...and Davis Friend-Of-Yours Straub determined that 130 pound braided Dacron Tolling line was APPROPRIATE - which, in hang glider aerotowing, is a synonym for PERFECT - for ALL gliders.

And Davis Friend-Of-Yours Straub...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

...has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

- And Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney assures us that:

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.

Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.

Say what you will, but if you want to argue with *that* much history, well, you better have one hell of an argument... which you don't.

It amuses me how many people want to be test pilots.
It amuses me even more that people...
A) Don't realize that "test pilot" is exactly what they're signing up for and B) actually testing something is a far more involved process than "I think I just try out my theory and see what happens".

Allow me to repeat... hundreds of thousands of tows.
Sure, there's other stuff out there too. Some of it even has a number of tows behind it... but hundreds of thousands is a very large number.

That's not "religion" my friend.
The shit works. It works in reality and it works consistently.

-- This shit was already worked out by the time he arrived and sticks because of trail and error.

-- When someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink he eventually scares himself with it and winds up back with one that has a very proven track record - I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.

-- No one has the hell of an argument he needs to contest *that* much history.

-- There's other stuff out there too - some of it even with a number of tows behind it - but hundreds of thousands is a very large number. And that's not "religion" my friend.

-- The shit works in reality and it works consistently.

And that's for ALL gliders - motherfucker - not just little two hundred pound Karen Carra jobs. And that's from Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, Davis Friend-Of-Mine Straub, and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. And who the fuck do you think you are to be arguing with Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, Davis Friend-Of-Mine Straub, and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney?

Ya know...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.

Some people listen with the intent of understanding and others listen with the intent of responding. You should listen with the intent of understanding.

Get over it.
Why?
Because it's all you've got.

That's not what...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

IGFA braided Dacron fishing line is readily available in a wide range of strengths that work for us, including 100, 130, 160, 180, 200, 250, and 300 lb. line.

...Dr. Trisa Tilletti says. We have at least seven different options to keep solos in the FAA legal range. We choose 130 because it's IDEAL for ALL solos.

Why lower numbers? Because your choice is lower or higher... and higher is more dangerous than lower.
Plain and simple. Janni, 1G, but please stay.

If lower is safer why aren't we all flying 100?

- Are you saying it's OK to trade safety for CONVENIENCE? No fuckin' way would people as dedicated to the safety of aerotowing as Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, Davis Friend-Of-Mine Straub, and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney make a compromise like that. It was OBVIOUSLY worked out through trail and error that anything thirty pounds UNDER 130 is just as dangerous as thirty pounds OVER. 130 is the sweet spot - no question whatsoever.

While Zack Marzec would've been very clearly provided better protection from an excessive angle of attack by 100 pound Greenspot...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

...Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, Davis Friend-Of-Mine Straub, and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney didn't put out an advisory to that effect because they've all been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what, who's who, and what can happen whenever one strays from a proven system that works.

Now, my turn.
Name one commercially available strength rated material that can be used as a weaklink OTHER than greenspot.

How come you never seem to acknowledge anyone...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Zack C - 2011/08/31 17:38:50 UTC

The Cortland stuff is available in different breaking strengths, including 200 lbs.
Also, Stuart Caruk sells line calibrated to various strengths:
http://www.towmeup.com/weaklink.html

...who answers that question?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Tad Eareckson - 2008/11/25 19:38:35 UTC

http://www.tost.de/Eindex.html
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page30.htm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/

Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/11/25 20:16:56 UTC

I posted the quiz to point out that most people don't feel comfortable analyzing the situation in the first place.

Virtually all people just do what everyone else is doing because everyone's always done it that way and it has a huge track record behind it.

Plus one would think when you loop 130 lb test greenspot you get 260 lbs minus some small amount for wrapping it around a bridle (hiding the knot from direct tension), but most people...

...including/especially the negligent assholes who run all the flight parks and control the magazine...

...would be surprised to find that Tad tested the loops to be around 140 lbs. Most professionals don't even know that.

But... With our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

...but are often weak in regard to external validity - meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

And it abrades...

Gets safer.

...with time.

It's not kept because it's reliable or even well understood, it's kept because folks recognize it so they feel comfortable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

Tad has posted a site that has plastic strips for weak links, with holes cut in them to decrease the strength as needed.

Where did you read they were plastic, Brian?

Seems better than the stuff we use now, with more room for adjustment. Made by a company focussed on towing.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

I think heavier pilots should have a choice to increase the weak link strength to within the specified 100 lbs below the tug weak link.

I think the heaviest tandem should be required to fly at one and a half Gs, there should be a five thousand dollar fine every time something blew before the tandem's weak link, and a solo should be able to fly at two Gs without having to worry about anything breaking in front of him or the fucking idiot tug driver's comfort level.

The links will be more expensive, but also replaced less often.

There's NOTHING in hang gliding...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC

Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.

...more expensive than a weak link that breaks.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 20:49:28 UTC

Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/11/25 20:16:56 UTC

It's not kept because it's reliable...

There are a couple thousand successful tows that tend to contradict that statement.

Yep...

http://history.nasa.gov/rogersrep/v2appf.htm
Report of the PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION on the Space Shuttle Challenger Accident

Richard Feynman - 1986/06

We have also found that certification criteria used in Flight Readiness Reviews often develop a gradually decreasing strictness. The argument that the same risk was flown before without failure is often accepted as an argument for the safety of accepting it again. Because of this, obvious weaknesses are accepted again and again, sometimes without a sufficiently serious attempt to remedy them, or to delay a flight because of their continued presence.

Let's keep focusing on the couple thousand "successful"....

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

...tows we make doing unbelievably stupid shit and write off as dust devil induced freak accidents...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...the ones we make when things blow up in someone's face.

...or even well understood...

I work with a lot of people that would tend to disagree with that.

Of course you do. And Pat Robertson works with a lot of stupid pigfuckers who disagree with the ideas that:
- the universe is older than six thousand years
- humans and chimps have common ancestors
- we're roasting the planet by pumping billions of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere nonstop

ALL of the people who work with you - and tolerate your presence amongst them - are ALSO scummy bags of shit.

Just because the solo pilot crowd isn't aware, please do not assume this.

WHICH solo pilot crowd? The absolute morons who couldn't think their ways out of wet paper bags and thus hang on your every word? Or the one percent who CAN do the grade school arithmetic it takes to reveal you as a total fraud?

One criteria is of course that they are recognizable... to me... not you.

Go for it.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


- You only have the cranial capacity to recognize one flavor of fishing line.
- It crashes gliders left and right.
- The two things in life I love most are watching:
-- total fucking morons doing the same stupid shit over and over and constantly hoping for better results
-- the gene pool improving

But that's not it. They are kept because they have a huge track record. That's really hard to argue with.
I've yet to hear anyone successfully do so.

Nope. You've got me there.

Plastic links...

"Manufactured by Bob" doesn't meet my criteria.

I think it's almost criminal that USHGA hasn't written YOUR CRITERIA into the SOPs. And how come...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

...not even any of the flight parks with whom you're associated - Ridgely, Manquin, Quest, Morningside - have published Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's Aerotowing Criteria on their websites so we'd know not to bother showing up with Tost sailplane weak links or any other funky shit and become the targets of your righteous wrath and indignation?

They are not manufactured to tolerances. They're not "manufactured" at all... They are a material that some guy found consistent enough to feel comfortable about. He cuts holes and tests, but it's still Bob in his backyard. He doesn't make the plastic, so he has no control over the quality of it.
That said, I'd feel a whole lot better about these than Tad's stuff.

I hope every last one of you CHGA motherfuckers who allowed this malignant little piece of shit to gain as much control of Region 9 hang gliding as he did rots in hell for at least five or six decades - starting with you - MARK.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/11/25 21:04:53 UTC

Oh come on, you think the makers of greenspot start with the raw materials? they get stuff from other folks they don't control.
Of course the community has to use something they feel comfortable with, and can't go switching willy nilly.

Tell me how the results could POSSIBLY be any worse than they are now, Brian.

- Any lighter...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

...and we couldn't get gliders in the air at all. And hang gliding can't get any safer than that.

- As you keep going heavier...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFAPpz6I6WU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm-YPa_Gvdw


...the frequency of pops starts going down.

THE SINGLE MOST DANGEROUS THING YOU CAN DO is find some fishing line JUST strong enough to get the glider climbing - and not ten pounds more.

And that's EXACTLY what Hewett, Pagen, Bobby, Wallaby, Quest, Lookout, Ridgely, Rooney, and all these other sleazy motherfuckers...

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


...have done to us.

Worst possible:
- place to put a release actuator - downtube
- shape for a barrel release pin - bent
- strength for a bridle end weak link - 130 pounds
- position to have your hands for landing - on the downtubes at shoulder or ear height
- time to:
-- move:
--- two hands off the basetube to the downtubes in free flight - landing
--- one hand off the basetube under tow - lockout
-- verify that you're hooked in - one minute before launch
-- start loading up your sidewires - one minute AFTER launch

List a few things that the hang gliding establishment coerces of forces us to do that AREN'T optimized to crash and kill us.

But if something is out there that everyone has access to and it would allow some more control, isn't it worth looking at?

You should have been telling this asshole to go fuck himself years before this point, Brian.

Granted, it's a small company in a niche market that could go belly up any time.

Good job doing your homework on those links (weak and web) I posted.

I'd prefer something like greenspot that is weaker so a multiple loop method could be used with more room for adjustment.

A more appropriate response?

"You've revealed yourself to be such an off the scale arrogant and stupid dick that I'll go with ANYTHING *ANYBODY* BUT *YOU* advises.

No doubt the towing community...

Cult.

...has already been through this and settled on the best they could do.

Sure, Brian. Trail and error over quite literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of tows. And they found that 130 pound Greenspot is the perfect lockout protector for all solo gliders across the spectrum.

But it's worth looking every few years, isn't it?

Why? Does Newtonian physics change every few years?

Anyway, I don't see much more to say unless the tug link can be made stronger.

I can think of tons of shit for you to have said to and about this asshole that would've been a thousand times more useful than these grossly inappropriately civil softballs you're tossing. None of it would've won you any popularity contests but at least you'd have:
- done what you could
- displayed some substance of character
- been able to say toldyaso when Zack Marzec slammed in
- gone down in aviation history as something better than the nonentity you are

Want a few ideas on how to say something useful?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC

How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Freedomspyder - 2013/03/04 23:12:34 UTC

I'm not really interested in discussing what an 'argument' is or isn't. However, Zack and Deltaman seem pretty consistent with their message. Blindrodie is easy enough to discount as a fool. I won't bother going back to comment on other folks (purportedly in the weak weaklink camp) who have posted moronic things just because they disagree.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Zack C - 2013/03/05 21:11:09 UTC

You've repeatedly assigned sentiments to me I never expressed, ignored my questions, and asked me questions I've already answered. I'm beginning to wonder if you're actually reading what I'm writing.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 21:39:06 UTC

Agreed, it seems trivial, but it's actually a large difference.
(Notice a trend?)

The difference is when the quality control happens, and to what extent. Commercially available material that's sold as load tested is held to standards. There is a huge difference between a backyard production run and something that's available quite literally around the world. The volume difference is absolutely massive. The quality control sampling is far far greater than whatever a single person, or even a single outfit can muster. It's simply night and day.

Can you express night and day in terms of percentage? When you've tested a handmade Tad-O-Link piece of crap that some muppet claims blows at four hundred pounds towline how many hundred pounds off do you usually find it? Two? Three? Four?

No. Wait. It probably wouldn't be off by as much as four on the light side because that would make it a zero pound weak link - and thus very safe. In fact, almost as safe as...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

...a Rooney Link.

But it could be off the other way and be eight hundred pounds. And that would be just 240 pounds under what the dickheads at Ridgely were telling everybody the double loop for the tandem was allowing.

See the fishing line isn't being made from raw materials with an assumption of quality. The testing happens after it's produced. And happens on an absolutely massive scale. There is no assumption of quality of the raw materials.

Yes. They test the line every fifty feet before it goes on the spool because they know most of it will be used for aerotowing weak links and they're EXTREMELY conscious of the potential danger to the tug if it's three pounds heavier than what's on the label.

The plastic links are assumed to be made to a certain tolerance and then tested by Bob in very limited quantities.

Yes. You talked to Bob and understand all about his production procedures, testing schedules, and problems with the consistency of the plastic he uses because of...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

...your keen intellect and knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang glider aerotowing in particular. And Mitch Shipley - himself a real expert on aerotowing in general and...

http://ozreport.com/16.078
The Rob Kells Meet

Davis Straub - 2012/04/18 15:02:09 UTC

Mitch Shipley (T2C 144) crashed at launch after a weak link break. He tried to stretch out the downwind leg and then drug a tip turning it around and took out his keel (at least).

...aerotowing weak links in particular is on the record designating your comments as the ones we should give the most weight to.

The quality of the raw materials is assumed. Big big difference.

It really amazes me how you manage to tow gliders fourteen hours a day all year round and accumulate as much wisdom about weak links as you do.

And yep... thanks for pointing out the futility of all this... You're confined to certain parameters (tug's link), so discussing things outside those parameters is pretty darn pointless.

Yep. The crap on the front end. Everything bolted on and strapped in between the tow ring and the first millimeter of the nose.

And it's ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that you know PRECISELY what the glider weak link is so you can:
- make appropriate carburetor and comfort level adjustments
- assess the danger of you stalling
- predict the degree to which your tail can get yanked around
- know when it's advisable to:
-- fix whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope; or
-- wait for the Rooney Link to increase the safety of the towing operation
- calculate the:
-- pitch and roll attitudes different weight gliders will be able to attain
-- safety margins of muppets and rockstars
-- recovery altitudes required for stalls and lockouts for different glider models, flying weights, and skill levels

This is all very complex stuff and we wouldn't be able to understand it without your keen intellect and hundreds of hours/tows of experience.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.

Asshole.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/25 22:40:36 UTC

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 19:21:57 UTC

Why lower numbers? Because your choice is lower or higher... and higher is more dangerous than lower.
Plain and simple. Janni, 1G

I won, I won!!!
What was your point about nylon vs. dacron in harness suspensions again, Tad?

Yeah Janni, sticking with Rooney on a mainstream forum you're always gonna win. He's gonna tell ya what you wanna hear, it's gonna match the crap you've been fed before, and it won't require any actual THINKING.

And whenever you stupid clones start getting your balls cut off in the debates the threads are gonna be locked down and the people making sense are gonna be threatened, banned, ostracized.

But out on the runway Mother Nature, Sir Isaac, and Edward Murphy are in charge and not one of them gives a flying fuck about opinions, conventional wisdom, popularity, social standing, or your stupid ass. So enjoy your victories in the only places where you can because you're not gonna have them where they really count and there aren't any do-overs.

Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/11/26 00:38:17 UTC

Jim;
From the website Tad found:

Yeah. Tost. The website TAD FOUND. To the world's foremost expert on everything - especially...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Adi Branch - 2009/07/02 12:50:02 UTC

I have to chirp in on this.. I know I'm a noob and all that, but Tad seems to be talking sense to me. From what I can gather the US has some quite different (dated?) ways of doing things which it appears are not used here in the UK, and some of the reasons I've heard cited for not using these methods relate directly to accidents in the US.

For instance, the idea of tying your own weak link is absolute nuts to me, as is using a bit of string for the job! Over here it's aluminium only (sailplane style link) and if I turned up with a bit of tied string, I'd be shown the exit road.

...hang glider aerotowing.

In 2005, we celebrated the company's 60th anniversary. All these years, our business has been located on the same site in the heart of Munich...

This company has been manufacturing towing products longer than hang gliding has been in existence. Gee, somebody trusts their products, and it's a larger community than hang gliding. Maybe it's time to get less provincial?

Inbred.

Janni - I wouldn't say it's settled that weaker is safer.

It is for Ridgely, Manquin, and CHGA. It got settled the second I was "suspended" - for three months.

Try a link that's just enough to lift you partway off the cart then dump you. And do it without wheels.

And let's not worry about stalls. Unless you're dumped back on the cart it's never anything more than an inconvenience.

Two opposing safety standards, there's got to be a sweet spot, even if we haven't found a way to know for sure where it is.

Yeah. There's a sweet spot - on tow, climbing, and under or working on regaining control. And if you're not under or working on regaining control you probably wanna be OFF tow. But...

- There are A LOT of altitude, roll, pitch, airspeed, glide ratio, flying weight, hook-in weight, handling, air, tug response, tension variables to throw into the equation and a piece of fishing line can NEVER be depended upon to make the right call at the right time.

- Getting off tow when you're not under or working on regaining control doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna live.

We don't have pieces of fishing line to make our decisions for us in other demanding and/or dangerous situations in which we operate - flat slope and assisted windy cliff launches, scratching, thermalling, ridge traffic, approaches... What makes you think we can rely on one for doing ANYTHING other than making sure the glider doesn't break when we're aerotowing?

Gene Towns - 2008/11/26 01:33:33 UTC
Waldorf, Maryland

Otto Lilienthal, wasn't he out there back in the day running the hills? I can't recall what airport I was in, there was a replica glider hanging from the ceiling. I wonder if they utilized weak links back then.

Good point, Gene. This makes me think that I might be mistaken about 130 pound Greenspot.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/26 08:14:54 UTC

Fair enough... there you have it then.... grab one of their weaklinks at your appropriate size and dispense with all this drama an all these silly hand made weaklinks.

I got a better idea. Why don't we make our own decisions within the confines of FAA aerotowing regulations and dispense with your moronic lying ass?

Those "toast" weaklinks...

Yeah - "toast" weak links and...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

I don't really have anything against the Kotch release.

..."Kotch" two stage releases. Keen Intellect operating at full tilt.

...fit all the criteria...

What the fuck do you mean - "THE" criteria, motherfucker? THE criteria are that you can use anything you goddam well please at the glider end that blows between eighty and two hundred percent max certified operating weight and something stronger at the tug end. You start adhering to the ACTUAL criteria before you start dictating the crap oozing out of your own egomaniacal lunatic imagination.

...then?...

And of course it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for an INDIVIDUAL to drill out metal strips...

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.

Steve Uzochukwu - 2009/12/16 20:50:16 UTC

No. Ken Hammond will make weak links to any value you want, calibrated and tested. We bought a batch of 125daN and 150daN links from him.

...to the exacting standards a pin bending shithead like Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney demands.

Tad's still do not, btw... nothing's changed there.

And it matters not a whit...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Carful who you put stock in mate.
Calling blindrodie a fool? Seriously? Easily discounted?
You may not have an understanding of who you're brushing off... In lieu of some people that have been listening to the rantings of, I kid you not, a convicted pedophile. I'm willing to look past the messenger... To a point. But gimme a break... You're blowing off a tug pilot instead?

Zack. . Till you've got data showing that 130lb line doubled up breaks at the single 200lb line strength... Not 200lbs...Then your argument holds no water.
On one side, you're saying that 130lb line breaks at 100lbs... So what makes you believe that 200lb line breaks at 200?

...that none of you professional Dragonfly douchebags has the slightest fuckin' clue what your ever so exacting criteria ARE - even after we've done the testing for you and told you the result twenty or thirty times.

So... if Tad really is seeking to improve safety... will he now give up making weaklinks and instead start pushing these?

Nope. I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to improve the safety of ANY US or Australian Dragonfly operations. I'm having WAY too much fun...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Of course not... it's Asshole-ese.

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

...watching you bury your idiot friends while Deltaman is getting Rooney Links out of circulation, putting Tad-O-Links into the air, and protecting France from the influence of you stupid quacks.

And I'm totally one hundred percent serious about that. Some of us have been working our balls off for years fighting this lunacy with everything we've got while you pieces of shit piss all over us and thousands of other assholes either just stand by and watch or cheer you on. Anybody who - at this stage of the game - hooks up with a Rooney Link deserves anything and everything that happens to him.

And I'll be tuned in and...



...eating it up with a spoon. Natural selection in its purest and most entertaining form.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.skywingsmag.com/

The official magazine of the British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Ltd. Skywings exists to inform, educate and entertain those involved in the sports of paragliding, hang gliding, paramotoring and powered hang gliding.

Skywings - 2013/06

safety matters
BHPA FLYING AND SAFETY COMMITTEE

Extreme angles on hang glider tows

A recent incident has highlighted the dangers of extreme climb angles during the early part a hang glider winch launches. Hang glider tow pilots are reminded that the initial climb immediately after take-off should be made with the glider at a relatively low angle to the horizon. The pilot action after lift off should be to pull in slightly - not to push out aggressively. A relatively low nose angle should be maintained until the point of first release. This maintains ample airspeed while allowing a safe, gentle climb. Let the glider fly.

High rates of climb with dangerously high nose angles are to be avoided when anywhere near the ground. A winch failure, line break or weak link break at this point would leave the glider in an unrecoverable nose-high / low airspeed situation close to the ground, and a painful crash is almost certain. In addition, extreme nose angles make a line break or weak link break much more likely. Once above 30 metres (100 feet), wait for the winch driver to reduce power, release the first (lower) line, and when the tension on the line is resumed ease the bar out to climb more steeply. This is the 'full climb' stage.

Note that all hill-trained pilots who wish to winch tow will need to complete a tow environment course including a multiple-choice exam. They will need to have at least ten hours logged before undertaking the course. Hang glider pilots will also need wheels for the glider base-bar.

Thank you again, God.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.skywingsmag.com/

The official magazine of the British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Ltd. Skywings exists to inform, educate and entertain...

One out of three ain't bad - especially with such astronomical success with the last.

...those involved in the sports of paragliding, hang gliding, paramotoring and powered hang gliding.

Or - thanks to clueless operations and national organizations who've turned a lot of how we fly into a religion - trying to.

Skywings - 2013/06

Echoes of:

Hang Gliding - 2012/13

safety matters

Is that a description of the content of the advisory or a statement?

BHPA FLYING AND SAFETY COMMITTEE

Any of the people on the BHPA Flying and Safety Committee also on the USHGA Towing Committee? This entertainment sounds SO familiar.

Extreme angles on hang glider tows

Climb or Of Attack? Oh well, it really doesn't matter - they're just two different ways of saying the same thing.

A recent incident...

Actually...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Mike Lake - 2012/08/25 16:50:19 UTC

I didn't post this info when this thread was 'live' as at the time an accident report was pending.

On the 12th August a new(ish) pilot took off on tow, his weak-link snapped, the glider's nose dropped and with no height to recover he hit the ground.

Now you can dress this incident up as much as you like but what put the guy in hospital was his 'safety device'.
If the weak-link had held he would have had a post flight briefing instead of a trip in a helicopter.

It is true the guy made some mistakes and was not a perfect pilot.
The weak-link sure taught him a lesson, perhaps we should also have given him a good kicking while he was on the ground waiting for the air ambulance.

A stronger weak-link, by that I mean one not teetering on the edge breaking under normal flight conditions, would drastically reduce the above risk.
This, the same risk we all (with current thinking) subject ourselves to on EVERY takeoff as we fly through the "Cone of Danger"
(smartarse comment acknowledged).

Now, this same guy in all probability will go through his whole flying career without suffering a lockout, he may well experience the onset of a lockout and of course release, as we are all trained to do.

At this onset why would the guy (with a stronger link) wait for his weak-link to break instead of releasing?
If he does wait he can be just as upside down with a weaker link than one that has given him the luxury of a reduced risk on every takeoff he has ever made.

One day we will look back and wonder why we endure this unnecessary risk at such a critical time, just like we now look back and wonder why we thought towing from the middle of the base bar was such a good idea, 'cos that's how everyone does it.

(The guy is ok, recovering and hopefully will want to fly again.)

It wasn't all that fucking recent. But you might have missed it 'cause the topic was "weak links" rather than "Extreme angles on hang glider tows".

...has highlighted the dangers of extreme climb angles during the early part a hang glider winch launches.

- And people who winch tow paragliders...

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28641
Weak links in towing paragliders with pay out winch

Aart de Wachter - 2009/12/01 19:08:56 UTC

In The Netherlands only static winches are used. Every now and then the cable brakes. This is no problem when you're 50 meters high, but below that a cable or weak link break can be disastrous. The worst we had was somebody breaking his neck after a cable failure at 20 meters.

This summer I had another cable break at 15 meters when I was up with passenger on the tandem. Catching the surge on a tandem is hard work and seeing the ground coming at you with a passenger isn't very nice. So stuff breaking just above the ground is not good.

The alternative is taking off with too much load on the line. This feels like taking off on a rocket with the glider far behind you. But the glider flies just as well, so I think that give the situation of too much line tension it's best if every thing just stays together and doesn't intensionally break...

...or aerotow hang gliders...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC

Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.

...don't really need to worry about this advisory - just people who winch launch hang gliders.

- From my reading of Mike's account the danger wasn't the extreme climb angle. The danger occurred immediately after he abruptly STOPPED climbing at the extreme angle and started dropping at an extreme angle. Seems to make sense 'cause the stuff below him was a lot harder than the stuff above him.

Hang glider tow pilots are reminded that the initial climb immediately after take-off should be made with the glider at a relatively low angle to the horizon.

And I'd like to remind hang glider tow pilots, especially...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


...pros, that:

- because of gusts, thermals, dust devils, lead footed drivers, hook-up errors, less than perfect hang glider tow pilots... gliders at relatively low angles to the horizon don't always stay at relatively low angles to the horizon

- gliders with weak links that very clearly provide them with protection from high angles of attack are quite capable of stalls that eat up a lot more altitude than is typically attained on initial climb

The pilot action after lift off should be to pull in slightly...

Yeah. As long as you're pulled in slightly...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land.

...after liftoff you should be JUST FINE no matter what happens.

...not to push out aggressively.

Well yeah - for WINCH TOWING. But for AERO...

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

Wallaby Ranch - 2013/06/25

Should you find yourself low behind the tug, you may need to actually push out on the control bar forcefully, resulting in a "past normal" bar position, that in non-towing situations would lead to a stall. However, because of the "pull" of the tow line, this action will result in a CLIMB, and not a stall. Stay with the tug using pitch input. If you are low, PUSH OUT! Should you find yourself low behind the tug, you may need to actually push out on the control bar forcefully, resulting in a "past normal" bar position, that in non-towing situations would lead to a stall. However, because of the "pull" of the tow line, this action will result in a CLIMB, and not a stall. Stay with the tug using pitch input. If you are low, PUSH OUT!

...just push the fuck out of the bar whenever you feel like it. Nothing can happen to you - especially if you're in the Cone of Safety and have a fin.

A relatively low nose angle should be maintained until the point of first release. This maintains ample airspeed while allowing a safe, gentle climb. Let the glider fly.

And if the weak link pops - no big fuckin' deal. The glider will smoothly transition to a safe, gentle descent.

High rates of climb with dangerously high nose angles are to be avoided when anywhere near the ground.

Define...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

Because of the length of the tow line, it was a few seconds later when Zach's glider entered the same strong lift and he was at an estimated 100 to 150 feet in altitude at this time. When the lift/turbulence was encountered, the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack. Apparently, the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled and then nosed down and tumbled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFAPpz6I6WU


..."near the ground".

A winch failure...

Bad thing.

...line break...

Bad thing.

...or weak link break...

GOOD THING!

...at this point would leave the glider in an unrecoverable nose-high / low airspeed situation close to the ground, and a painful crash is almost certain.

Well, if it's just PAINFUL... I really don't see what all the fuss is about. Skinned elbow or knee... As long as there's no possibility of seriously bending a downtube.

In addition, extreme nose angles make a line break or weak link break much more likely.

Well... We can probably do something...

Harry Robb - 1975/09
The Tow Line

Polyethylene or polypropylene, 12 strand, braided 3/8 inch line, 500 feet in length is used in competition. Lines for novice flyers should be about 150 feet long, and increased in length as experience is gained. According to the Kiting Handbook by Dan Poynter, this size line has a tensile strength of 2025 pounds.

Each end of the tow line is normally provided with a stainless steel screw-pin shackle with an approximate 3/16 inch shank which fits in the slot of the safety release hook. The screw pin of the shackle is inserted through a loop of the tow line at least 2 or 3 feet, providing sufficient friction to prevent disengagement.

Although some flyers use only the loop of the tow line in the safety release, this practice is not recommended as it greatly accelerates the abrasion and fraying of the line. Once the line shows very many single strand breaks, its tensile strength is greatly decreased and should be discarded.

No flight should ever be made with a knot in the tow line. Aside from the abrasion caused by the knot rubbing on itself, the tensile strength is decreased by as much as 50%.

Lines require constant inspection - prior to the first flight of every day by every flyer. In a tournament, the Lineman Starter can inspect some portions of the line on each flight, and the Safety Inspector will inspect the entire line slowly, foot-by-foot, two or three times daily. The tow line is a life line and must be treated with utmost respect.

...about LINE breaks - which are BAD things. But I have no freakin' clue what we can do...

The British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association

Approved maximum weak link values for tow launch operations.

1. All weak link values stated are maximums.
2. All weak link values stated are for professionally purpose built calibrated weak links such as Tost and Koch. These values must be reduced by 20% if using any other type of weak link.
3. 1daN is approximately 1kg force.

Parascending

Square wings:

* Green (300daN) for 70kg upward canopy maximum recommended payload.
* Yellow (400daN) for 94kg upward canopy maximum recommended payload.
* White (500daN) for 117kg upward canopy maximum recommended payload.

Rounds:

* White (500daN)

Paragliding

Paragliders:

* Up to 125 kg total weight in flight: 125daN weak link
* More than 125 kg total weight in flight: 150daN weak link

Hang Gliding

Hang glider winch tow:

* Up to 150kg clip-in weight: 125daN weak link
* More than 150kg clip-in weight: 150daN weak link

Hang glider Aerotow: (Glider end of tow rope)

* Up to 75kg clip-in weight: 100daN weak link
* 75kg to 150kg clip-in weight: 125daN weak link
* More than 150kg clip-in weight: 150daN weak link

Tug Aerotow: (Tug end of tow rope)

* Up to 150 kg glider clip-in weight: 150 - 180daN weak link
* More than 150kg glider clip-in weight: 180 - 225daN weak link

...about WEAK LINK breaks - which are GOOD things.

Once above 30 metres (100 feet), wait for the winch driver to reduce power, release the first (lower) line, and when the tension on the line is resumed...

What if you did it like THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il3YPp3Rfq8

...ease the bar out to climb more steeply. This is the 'full climb' stage.

And don't worry about being killed by a line break or inconvenienced by a weak link break. You're above a hundred feet now and nothing can happen to you.

Note that all hill-trained pilots who wish to winch tow will need to complete a tow environment course including a multiple-choice exam.

Will there be a question about the purpose of the weak link on it? I'm a little confused.

I was previously under the impression that...

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.

2009/12/15 17:17:26 UTC

Mark Dale

Dennis Pagen, in his book 'Towing Aloft' recommends a weak link of 75% or less of the total weight of the pilot and glider for modern paragliders. If pilots are finding that a weak link operating is causing them too much excitement then they should insist on a weaker weak link: a weak link parting should be an easily dealt with inconvenience. (There has never been a reported incident arising from a weak link parting: all the worries seem to come from those who tow without them.... perhaps they have experienced line failures at high tensions and still don't understand that the correct weak link will prevent that level of trauma?)

2010/02/11 14:25:49 UTC

Angus Pinkerton, Chairman, BHPA Flying and Safety Committee

Alan is convinced that a weak link parting is dangerous. Indeed this seems to be a common misconception in various types of towing, despite the fact that in almost all cases the perceived danger of a weak-link break is undoubtedly due to high tow tensions causing dangerous aircraft attitudes. In any properly conducted paraglider tow operation the canopy is at a safe attitude (i.e. above the pilot) when it is at low level. A low-level line break is a mild inconvenience. What is dangerous is a random part of the tow system failing at high tension. The weak link ensures that high tensions can never be reached.

Alan and the rest of the membership can rest assured that all aspects of BHPA flight operations are under constant review with regard to improving safety. If there was any evidence to suggest that there was a need to change any aspect of paraglider towing procedures then, following appropriate study, this would be done.

- a weak link parting was an easily dealt with mild inconvenience
- all worries come from those who tow without weak links
- correct BHPA specified weak links - especially the twenty percent lighter fishing line jobs - will prevent:
-- trauma
-- the dangerously high tensions that allow dangerously high pitch attitudes

But this advisory appears to flatly contradict what I was being told by BHPA three and a half years ago.

I'm guessing that the "recent incident" that triggered this advisory was the result of a winch failure or line break because:

- there has never been a reported incident arising from a weak link parting

- we can rest assured that all aspects of BHPA flight operations are under constant review with regard to improving safety

- if there were any evidence to suggest that there was a need to change any aspect of towing procedures then, following appropriate study, this would be done

Thus, since:
- you have:
-- had about ten months to do an appropriate study
-- not advised us of a first in hang or para glider towing history there was a reported incident arising from a weak link parting
- the weak link specifications are still the same
we're still totally good in that department.

They will need to have at least ten hours logged before undertaking the course.

Then they'll have the muscle memory reactions they should to smoothly pull the bar back when a winch fails or a line breaks and makes the situation dangerous or when a weak link breaks to ensure that a dangerously high tension isn't reached and transforms the situation into one of mild inconvenience.

From that point on they should expect no serious problems...

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

...barring, of course, issues with low level turbulence such as dust devils - particularly the invisible ones that not even the tug driver is aware of.

Hang glider pilots will also need wheels for the glider base-bar.

Yeah?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

Eye witnesses said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low.

Why?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Marc Fink - 2008/12/04 07:03:39 UTC

So Tad--

Given your opposition to greenspot and the obvious (to you) dangers inherent in using it--what does that say about all the aerotow parks and tug pilots that use it or permit it's use? You must feel that they are at least complicitly negligent in it's continuing use, right?

Given your opposition to greenspot and the obvious (to you) dangers inherent in using it...

Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14

This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Lauren Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:56:42 UTC

I am posting the report my husband, Paul Tjaden, just wrote about Zach Marzec's death at Quest. It is a great tragedy to lose someone so young and vital. We are sick about it, and our hearts go out to his friends, family and loved ones.

...what does that say about all the aerotow parks and tug pilots that use it or permit it's use?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

You must feel that they are at least complicitly negligent in it's continuing use, right?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Of course not... it's Asshole-ese.

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3167
Freak accident at Highland

Jim Rooney - 2008/04/18 11:40:20 UTC

BWA HAHAHAHAAHA!

BWA HAHAHAHAAHA!

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/12/09 22:53:19 UTC

The delusional comes in thinking that writing off highly experienced members of our community as mentally handicapped is a useful thing to do.

- FUCK:
-- high experience
-- members of OUR community
-- communities

- "Mentally handicapped" doesn't BEGIN to describe it.

Even if they're wrong...

Two plus two DOES NOT equal whatever the fuck Rooney feels like saying it is to support whatever position he's representing at the moment.

...(and there's always loopholes to any theory, so I'll never say anyone is completely wrong)...

Then you're full of shit, Brian. We're talking AVIATION THEORY. There are no loopholes and EVERYTHING that happens in the air can be explained by PHYSICS.

...these are the people who you're better off having on your side.

I don't EVER want pin bending Rooney caliber SCUM and/or Lauren caliber MORONS - or their apologists and enablers - anywhere NEAR my side.

(Fuckin' goddam worm.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3665
I'm outta here

Marc Fink - 2008/12/08 17:21:54 UTC

Sorry folks, but I'm not going to partake in a forum that puts up with sick individuals like Tad who have a compelling need to vent their hatred and bile on the members.

Don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out - asshole.

It's a mystery to me why Mark has clearly allowed him to carry on in clear violation of the standards he established.

Don't worry. You can count on Mark to do the right thing to keep as many of you dregs as happy as possible. And anyway, as long as you're willing to take over sucking Davis's dick whenever Rooney needs to take a break you'll always be welcome on the Oz Report.

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/08 18:40:38 UTC

MarkC's clearly on vacation.

MarkC can go fuck himself.

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/10 18:41:02 UTC

Yesterday, I flew with some very nice people from Baltimore.

If they were tolerating your company for more than about thirty seconds they were total assholes.

It's not entirely uncommon... yup, 1/2 way around the world to do something they can do in their back yard.

Anyway. When they asked about the scene back home... I don't tell them about chgpa. I can't.
This forum is so chalk full of hatred and bullshit that there's no way I'm sending outsiders into it. This is not the first view of the hang gliding "community" that they're going to get.

Nah. Send them over to The Davis Show...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/06 01:42:41 UTC

Oh god, I've been offensive to people that I hold in contempt.
How will I ever sleep at night?

No hatred and bullshit over there.

The actual club is so much better than this.

Yeah, the actual club is fertile ground for sleazy little parasites such as yourself - and your colleagues at Ridgely and Manquin.

But that's not what they'll see.
It seems we've got people walking away from this forum on a regular basis. Good people that are just sick of Tad's crap. Sorry to point fingers, but if the shoe fits.

Tad's "crap"...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/11 17:46:12 UTC

Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.

The reason for the vehemence of the response is they pile on to any AT accident, with no knowledge of the cause, and trot out the, if only he had a strong weaklink, nothing would have happened.

It's fine to want to work on better solutions to make us all safer by improving technology, it's ugly and inhuman to use the death of a really nice guy to advance your point... in case it wasn't obvious I agree with Bart and Jim, and no it's not a lack of english comprehension - he said there would have been a different outcome with a stronger weaklink.

...ain't gonna go away. It's all over the universe - places Tad's never even heard of. And there are occasionally...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5702
Fatal accident at Quest

Mark Cavanaugh - 2013/02/08 04:20:23 UTC

I'm so sorry to hear this news, especially on the heels of that too-fun-and-funny video featuring Zach (I shared it with many!). What a loss.

And I'm so sorry that you and Paul have the sad task of conveying what happened. My condolences to Zach's family & friends, and to the two of you.

I hope that something positive/proactive, something which could help reduce the risk of freakish accidents, might ultimately emerge. It might make such a tragic loss a tiny bit easier to bear...

MarkC

...big prices to pay for ignoring it.

Janni Papakrivos - 2008/12/10 18:57:32 UTC

What's the purpose of this forum?

I dunno, Janni... Why don't you define it for us?

Making arrangements for flying a particular site, flight and accident reports and exchanging ideas on anything related to HG. There is freedom of speech, but there is also responsibility for the club, the sport and attracting new members, pilots.

Translation: There's freedom of popular speech.

Tad's rants are not about exchange, they are off-putting...

To dumb fucks like you and Marc, sleazebags like Rooney, and wastes of space like Mark Cavanaugh - yes.

...they give the impression we're a bunch of loonies.

That's all? Sounds like I needed to ramp things up a bit. Stupid motherfuckers was what I was aiming for.

But he's got many enablers, I regret I was one of them. I would therefore like to join Marc Fink. I'm outta here as well.

And DO enjoy your honeymoon.